Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Rich Freeman]

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Andrew Savchenko  wrote:
>
> On Wed, 18 Nov 2015 07:01:21 -0500 Rich Freeman wrote:
>> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 6:12 AM, Alexander Berntsen  
>> wrote:
>> > When I do QA in projects I'm involved with (at least outside of
>> > Gentoo), we don't do it live on end-user systems. I'll leave the
>> > details as an exercise for the Gentoo developer.
>> >
>>
>> People who run ~arch are not really end-users - they're contributors
>> who have volunteered to test packages.
>
> I strongly disagree with you. We do not use stable even at
> enterprise grade production systems and HPC setups. Stable is just
> too freaking old in order to be usable for our purposes, not to
> mention that it lacks many packages at all. We tried stable
> several times, it just freaks out admins (including myself) too
> badly or results in horrible mess of stable and unstable which is
> less stable that unstable setups. I do not use stable at
> workstations and personal setups as well.

Interesting.  I've had the opposite experience, and don't run ~arch
except for testing purposes.  I don't hesitate to keyword packages
when necessary, and file bugs for their stabilization if appropriate.

Also, if you're doing something like HPC then you're probably focused
on a specific application, with your own QA system, so Gentoo's QA
doesn't really impact you much anyway as your own regression test is
going to catch issues.  I'm not nearly that formal but I've
containerized almost all my services because I don't like relying on
Gentoo's QA.  If I update my mariadb container I just make sure that
mariadb is working, and revert it if not.  If it happens to contain a
broken ssh client it doesn't concern me at all, since I don't use that
container for ssh.  Of course, the downside of this is that I end up
updating a lot of hosts, all for personal use.

> Of course I understand that there are people
> using it and I try to support stable packages as well, but these
> versions are mostly a burden and I can't really understand stable
> users.

Well, to be fair it seems like most Gentoo developers consider half
the tree a burden (that would be the "other" half).  We all have our
itches that we're trying to scratch.  As long as everybody follows the
policies the results end up working out reasonably well for everybody.
Some of us barely test ~arch at all, and others barely test stable at
all, and it seems that for the most part things work out.

In any case, the purpose of ~arch is testing, and is not intended to
be a stable experience, even if it often ends up being that way (which
is certainly nothing to complain about).  If we added another layer of
testing above ~arch, all we'd see happen is that everybody who runs
~arch today would just switch to that, since it would essentially be
the same thing, and ~arch wouldn't really serve any purpose at all.
If the purpose of ~arch isn't testing, then why have it at all?

But, like I said, if somebody wants to volunteer to do a barrage of QA
tests on portage, by all means do so.  It will only make life better
for everybody.  I just don't see any reason to bar the portage authors
from introducing a version if they consider it suitable for testing.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Andrew Savchenko]

Hi,

On Wed, 18 Nov 2015 07:01:21 -0500 Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 6:12 AM, Alexander Berntsen  
> wrote:
> > When I do QA in projects I'm involved with (at least outside of
> > Gentoo), we don't do it live on end-user systems. I'll leave the
> > details as an exercise for the Gentoo developer.
> >
> 
> People who run ~arch are not really end-users - they're contributors
> who have volunteered to test packages.

I strongly disagree with you. We do not use stable even at
enterprise grade production systems and HPC setups. Stable is just
too freaking old in order to be usable for our purposes, not to
mention that it lacks many packages at all. We tried stable
several times, it just freaks out admins (including myself) too
badly or results in horrible mess of stable and unstable which is
less stable that unstable setups. I do not use stable at
workstations and personal setups as well.

Nevertheless I consider stable useful as stabilization process
gives more testing for packages (and some fixes are forward ported
to unstable versions). Of course I understand that there are people
using it and I try to support stable packages as well, but these
versions are mostly a burden and I can't really understand stable
users.

Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko


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Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Daniel Campbell]

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On 11/18/2015 04:06 AM, Alexander Berntsen wrote:
> On 18/11/15 13:01, Rich Freeman wrote:
>> People who run ~arch are not really end-users - they're 
>> contributors who have volunteered to test packages.
> We are talking about people who run Gentoo stable who need to 
> keyword several specific packages because the lack of manpower 
> leads to Gentoo stable by itself not being very usable for most 
> people.
> 
> 
> Whatever. I just wanted to raise my concern. It has been raised. 
> You're all free to not care. Too bad for the user^Wthankless 
> contributors.
> 

I can't speak for other maintainers, but I thank each bug reporter
that I work with; ~arch users *are* important because their (and our)
testing is what allows us to even *have* a stable set of packages.

That said, I wouldn't feel comfortable writing EAPI 6 ebuilds on
packages with any stable dependencies. At least for the time being; I
wouldn't want to disturb stable users. But once EAPI 6-compatible
portage is stabilized, I see no issue.
- -- 
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
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Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 4:39 AM, Patrick Lauer  wrote:
>
> On 11/18/2015 01:01 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
>> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 6:12 AM, Alexander Berntsen  
>> wrote:
>>> When I do QA in projects I'm involved with (at least outside of
>>> Gentoo), we don't do it live on end-user systems. I'll leave the
>>> details as an exercise for the Gentoo developer.
>>>
>> People who run ~arch are not really end-users - they're contributors
>> who have volunteered to test packages.
> Or people that use Gentoo because it allows them to satisfy requirements.
>

So, again portage is a bit unusual in that it doesn't have an upstream
outside of Gentoo.

I think that a QA layer for Portage is a great idea, but it simply
isn't going to happen unless somebody actually steps up to create one.
The fact that more portage QA would be useful doesn't mean that the
few volunteers working on portage should be banned from introducing
new versions into ~arch until they create and staff a new QA effort.
They're of course welcome to work on that if that is what they want to
do, but I don't think anybody is going to try to dictate to them what
they work on.

If somebody really would benefit from more portage QA, I'd suggest
either pitching in to do the work, or finding some way to entice
others to do so.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Patrick Lauer]

On 11/18/2015 01:01 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 6:12 AM, Alexander Berntsen  
> wrote:
>> When I do QA in projects I'm involved with (at least outside of
>> Gentoo), we don't do it live on end-user systems. I'll leave the
>> details as an exercise for the Gentoo developer.
>>
> People who run ~arch are not really end-users - they're contributors
> who have volunteered to test packages.
Or people that use Gentoo because it allows them to satisfy requirements.

At work I don't 'want' to use ~arch packages, but external constraints
very strongly suggest that. Otherwise we'd just be on CentOS 5 and not
worry about things working properly.

And still we try to run updates in a sandbox first so we catch breakage
before it becomes a problem.

Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Ian Delaney]

On Wed, 18 Nov 2015 11:47:01 -0500
Rich Freeman  wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 10:10 AM, Brian Dolbec 
> wrote:
> > On Wed, 18 Nov 2015 06:59:19 -0500
> > Rich Freeman  wrote:
  
> 
> It is a bit ironic that you chose this as the part to quote when
> adding a snide remark.  My whole point was that we shouldn't
> NEEDLESSLY drop old versions,  You seemed to have taken this as a
> complaint about dropping old versions when there is a valid reason for
> doing so.
> 
> Your tone here is anything but helpful.  My intent was really to
> contribute to the discussion constructively and point out a pain point
> for people running mixed-keywords.  Perhaps I didn't explain my point
> as well as I could have.  When somebody is saying something that
> doesn't seem sensible to you, it is usually better to assume that they
> just didn't make their point well than to assume that they don't have
> anything worth saying.
> 

Bravo.
Lemme think of an example of similar replies I have had to endure in
this style.
'Your logic / code makes no sense' (Well logical thinking is a tad beyond me 
yeah)

One will do. Other authors might recognise their closed minded retorts
and other such blunders.
What ever was so hard about politely prompting to please re-phrase, or,
more casually, run that by me again, or "I need you to re-state that",
or even plain 'huh'. Alternatively; wtf are you saying? (Love that one)

Let's consider the lack of virtues of leaping to the wrong
interpretation aka misunderstanding the data put, then jumping in head
first & retorting to the 'sender' with what amounts to a blatant
smack down. But, as the guides to use of irc tells us in the first
place; pure text, absent of the remainder of visual and auditory
metadata, offers a highly restricted context, highly prone to error.
aka, text on a screen. In other words, a disaster looking for a
location.

Oh and dol-sen don't feel you're being picked on. You of all
folk are NOT one to typically fall over this one. Wish it were
someone far more 'typical'. 

But I stray, NOT troll.
What were we talking about again?


-- 
kind regards

Ian Delaney

Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Daniel Campbell]

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On 11/18/2015 01:54 AM, Raymond Jennings wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 1:25 AM, Alexander Berntsen
> mailto:berna...@gentoo.org>> wrote:
> 
> On 18/11/15 08:25, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
>> - If you mix stable and unstable then you are by definition an 
>> advanced user, who will be able to cope with the situation. :)
> This attitude is shitty, and I am willing to wager a really big
> bunch of users fall into this category.
> 
> 
>> I second the motion.
> 
>> I can vouch for myself as such a user who often uses unstable
>> packages to get new features or dodge bugs in the stable
>> versions.
> 
>> As a general default, though, I stick with stable packages.
> 
>> Taking an occasional unstable package in an otherwise stable
>> system (and obeying any revbump directives provoked by
>> dependencies) is a legal operation that is actually supported by
>> commit rules that prohibit stable versions from depending on
>> unstable versions of dependencies.
> 
>> Why would that policy exist if mixing stable and unstable were
>> unsupported?
> 

Mixing keywords is generally unsupported because of the sheer amount
of testing and possible combinations there are. In many cases, you can
get away with it and it's easy enough to debug, but if you end up in
package.use hell and/or have a bunch of blockers, you're kinda on your
own.

The policy exists to prevent developers from causing users to fall
into the trap of mixing keywords. Stable packages depending on testing
packages means they'll have to add entries to package.accept_keywords,
which can greatly complicate maintenance of a Gentoo system. Someone
willing to do that work *is* advanced, even if it's only a few
packages. "Advanced" doesn't have to mean "can build an LFS system in
an evening". :)

In the case of this recent change, worst case scenario you'll need to
add portage to your p.accept_keywords until it's stable. If you want
to simplify things, choose arch or ~arch without mixing.

In the Gentoo spirit, though, users are free to do with their systems
whatever they want; mixing keywords is one of the cases where you get
to keep the pieces, however.

> I don't think EAPI 6 is *that* shiny, that we need to start using
> it prior to stable Portage supporting it. It's a potential mess for
> a huge portion of our users.
> 
> 
> That said, I'd like to extend my thanks to Micha? for working on
> this.
> 
> 

- -- 
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
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Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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> And, as a developer maintaining bar in #3 above, you should make
> sure that either the stable version satisfies all rdeps (even those
> in ~arch), or you don't remove the EAPI5 ~arch version until all the
> rdeps are EAPI6.
> 
> Theoretically repoman could check for this; i don't know if it's
> implemented though or if there are any plans to implement it..
> IIRC, confirming removals don't break rdeps is not something repoman
> can do unless you run a 'repoman full' on the whole tree (or at
> least all the rdeps) yourself. 

- -> good usecase for autorepoman (hi Patrick) or the github QA checks after 
adding some extra code in both cases

- -- 
Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer (council, perl, libreoffice)
dilfri...@gentoo.org
http://www.akhuettel.de/
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Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Ian Stakenvicius]

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On 18/11/15 02:25 AM, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Nov 2015, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> 
>> It doesn't seem that unlikely to me...
> 
>> 1. Otherwise stable system with package "foo" keyworded as
>> ~arch.
> 
>> 2. foo needs some dependency of a dependency named "bar".
> 
>> 3. The bar maintainer revbumps and removes the old EAPI=5
>> ebuild.
> 
>> I don't really care either way, I'm just wondering whether this
>> is "safe" because it's actually safe, or "safe" because we're
>> gonna do it anyway.
> 
> Actually it is quite simple:
> 
> - The stable tree should not contain any EAPI 6 ebuilds at this
> point, so stable users should not see any change. - Unstable
> users will have a package manager aware of EAPI 6, so all ebuilds
> will be visible for it. - If you mix stable and unstable then you
> are by definition an advanced user, who will be able to cope with
> the situation. :)
> 

And, as a developer maintaining bar in #3 above, you should make
sure that either the stable version satisfies all rdeps (even those
in ~arch), or you don't remove the EAPI5 ~arch version until all the
rdeps are EAPI6.

Theoretically repoman could check for this; i don't know if it's
implemented though or if there are any plans to implement it..
IIRC, confirming removals don't break rdeps is not something repoman
can do unless you run a 'repoman full' on the whole tree (or at
least all the rdeps) yourself.  This really isn't any different from
the case where foo-1.0 has RDEPEND=" =bar-3.0 " and then bar-3.0 is
dropped.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 10:10 AM, Brian Dolbec  wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Nov 2015 06:59:19 -0500
> Rich Freeman  wrote:
>
>> Actually, what is less clear to me is how portage versioning actually
>> works, or if we attach any meaning to the version numbers at all.
>> Both the stable and unstable series are on 2.2.x, but there are no
>> versions in the tree between 2.2.20 and 2.2.23.
>>
>
> So, we have 2 user groups, stable and unstable.
>
> Current stable is 2.2.20.1
> current unstable is 2.2.25 <==just released

So, my first point was that the version numbering seems to have no
relationship to what is stable and unstable.  It isn't really meant as
a big complaint, but it just suggests a lack of a release strategy.

>
> With 2.2.4 becoming stable, why would we keep the buggy ~ 2.2.3 in the
> tree taking up space?  We already established that ~ users will have
> migrated away from it.
>

Sure, and my comment wasn't really directed at portage in particular,
though it is a fair reply because I did use it as an example.  Portage
is a bit unique in that it has no upstream QA process - the QA is
being done entirely within Gentoo.  For packages other than portage
there should be less reason to drop versions, since they probably
wouldn't have been released if they were unsuitable to release.

>
>> That tends
>> to result in a situation where if you follow ~arch you end up having
>> to accept lots of updates because none of the versions stay in the
>> tree long enough to actually get stabilized.
>
> that happens for some pkgs, if it happens too much for you, update less
> often.

What do you mean by "update less often?"  Are you suggesting not
running emerge --sync?  Not wanting to follow every ~arch version of a
package whose stable version has a problem isn't the same as not
wanting to update your entire tree, and there is no reason to force
users to choose between only those choices.

>
>> Unless a ~arch package
>> version is so broken that it could never be stabilized it is probably
>> better to leave them there so that it is easier for users to drop back
>> from ~arch to stable without downgrading.
>>
>
> Rich, please re-read your above statements until you see the total
> failure in your logic.

It is a bit ironic that you chose this as the part to quote when
adding a snide remark.  My whole point was that we shouldn't
NEEDLESSLY drop old versions,  You seemed to have taken this as a
complaint about dropping old versions when there is a valid reason for
doing so.

Your tone here is anything but helpful.  My intent was really to
contribute to the discussion constructively and point out a pain point
for people running mixed-keywords.  Perhaps I didn't explain my point
as well as I could have.  When somebody is saying something that
doesn't seem sensible to you, it is usually better to assume that they
just didn't make their point well than to assume that they don't have
anything worth saying.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Brian Dolbec]

On Wed, 18 Nov 2015 06:59:19 -0500
Rich Freeman  wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 6:05 AM, Ulrich Mueller 
> wrote:
> >
> > And on what basis would you stabilise Portage, when there are no
> > ebuilds in the tree to test its EAPI 6 code?
> >  
> 
> As long as the EAPI6 code in the new portage is no more broken than
> the EAPI6 code in the current stable version of portage (which doesn't
> work/exist at all), it isn't much of a regression.  What would be more
> of a pain is dealing with fixes in stable.
> 
> But, I don't have a problem with starting to use EAPI6 now, mainly
> because the ~arch version of portage does not require any new ~arch
> dependencies that would create a mess for stable users.  So, if a user
> needs to switch to a newer portage for a month or two it shouldn't be
> that big of a deal.
> 

The above part is fine :)


But this next bit...

> Actually, what is less clear to me is how portage versioning actually
> works, or if we attach any meaning to the version numbers at all.
> Both the stable and unstable series are on 2.2.x, but there are no
> versions in the tree between 2.2.20 and 2.2.23.
> 

So, we have 2 user groups, stable and unstable.

Current stable is 2.2.20.1
current unstable is 2.2.25 <==just released

So, when we release a new unstable version, unstable users upgrade,
what do you think happens to the older unstable version at that point.
It no longer receives much testing as the unstable users upgrade to the
newer unstable version.

If we feel that there is enough bugs in those that we do not want to
stabilize it.  Why would we keep it in the tree?  Just so more users
can potentially come across those bugs and open new bugs, since the old
bugs for those were closed with the newer release that contains the fix?
Are the bug wranglers low on work?

Here is a current example:

portage-2.2.23 is now old enough to consider stabilizing it.  It
contains a new cgroup feature.  It has a bug making it difficult for
people unless they again disable that feature.

portage-2.2.24 has no new features, just a bunch of bug fixes.

We decided that we will wait a few weeks and call for 2.2.24 to be
stabilized, maybe we will wait just one week (not the normal 30 days),
since 2.2.23 is out of consideration, 2.2.24 testing will dwindle to
nothing in the next week as people upgrade to 2.2.25.  

With 2.2.4 becoming stable, why would we keep the buggy ~ 2.2.3 in the
tree taking up space?  We already established that ~ users will have
migrated away from it.



> The main thing I find painful in following ~arch on the odd package is
> when maintainers drop versions quickly after bumping them.  

You want a package version with known serious bugs left in the tree so
more people can experience them? 

> That tends
> to result in a situation where if you follow ~arch you end up having
> to accept lots of updates because none of the versions stay in the
> tree long enough to actually get stabilized.  

that happens for some pkgs, if it happens too much for you, update less
often.

> Unless a ~arch package
> version is so broken that it could never be stabilized it is probably
> better to leave them there so that it is easier for users to drop back
> from ~arch to stable without downgrading.
> 

Rich, please re-read your above statements until you see the total
failure in your logic.

-- 
Brian Dolbec 

Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Andreas K. Huettel]

Am Mittwoch, 18. November 2015, 12:12:05 schrieb Alexander Berntsen:
> On 18/11/15 12:05, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> > Only that there is no real difference to the existing situation
> > when mixing stable and unstable. It is not guaranteed that all
> > dependencies of an unstable package are stable, so already now
> > users may have to accept the ~ keyword for dependencies in some
> > cases. Similarly, such users may have to accept EAPI 6 for some
> > dependencies, which implies that they install a package manager
> > supporting EAPI 6.
> 
> There's a difference between some packages being troublesome, and
> encouraging everyone to rewrite their eclasses and ebuilds, if the end
> result is a huge portion of ebuilds causing headaches.

Well, at some point it has to be introduced in the main tree. 
Can you prove at any point that portage is 100% correct? 

Also, adding EAPI=6 support to eclasses mostly consists of adding branches to 
case statements. I.e. the new code paths will never run on old EAPI.

> > And on what basis would you stabilise Portage, when there are no
> > ebuilds in the tree to test its EAPI 6 code?
> 
> When I do QA in projects I'm involved with (at least outside of
> Gentoo), we don't do it live on end-user systems. I'll leave the
> details as an exercise for the Gentoo developer.

So, I suggest you branch gentoo.git, start adding some new ebuilds to it 
(don't forget to use a random combination of eclasses, like perl-module, 
python-r1, kde4-base ...), update your system and check for all possible 
resolver oddities... Too much work? Tough.

-- 
Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer (council, perl, libreoffice)
dilfri...@gentoo.org
http://www.akhuettel.de/

Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Andreas K. Huettel]

Am Mittwoch, 18. November 2015, 10:25:23 schrieb Alexander Berntsen:
> On 18/11/15 08:25, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> > - If you mix stable and unstable then you are by definition an
> > advanced user, who will be able to cope with the situation. :)
> 
> This attitude is shitty, and I am willing to wager a really big bunch
> of users fall into this category.
> 
> I don't think EAPI 6 is *that* shiny, that we need to start using it
> prior to stable Portage supporting it. It's a potential mess for a
> huge portion of our users.

It would be helpful if you could point out what exactly *didn't* work in the 
past, instead of just making big words and large noise here. After all that's 
exactly the procedure that has been used for the last EAPI introductions.

-- 
Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer (council, perl, libreoffice)
dilfri...@gentoo.org
http://www.akhuettel.de/

Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 7:06 AM, Alexander Berntsen  wrote:
> We are talking about people who run Gentoo stable who need to
> keyword several specific packages because the lack of manpower
> leads to Gentoo stable by itself not being very usable for most
> people.
>

In this case, however, I don't really see that much impact on stable
users.  At most they need to accept a ~arch version of portage until
it becomes stable again.  It is a PITA because of how we tend to drop
versions of ~arch packages before they ever become stable, but any
stable user is already familiar with this pain and I don't really
think it is related to the EAPI6 introduction.

There really isn't a great alternative either.  It seems likely that
portage will end up having a bunch of little bumps with bugfixes until
things settle down, so it isn't a great time to try to stabilize EAPI6
versions of portage.  We'll get through the pain faster with the
widespread testing you get in ~arch.

>
> Whatever. I just wanted to raise my concern. It has been raised.
> You're all free to not care. Too bad for the user^Wthankless
> contributors.

Well, if you care that much, do more than post about it on a list.
This is actually a topic I care a lot about, but right now I don't
have a better solution to offer so it isn't productive to just hurl
abuse on those trying to actually improve things simply because they
aren't improving everything at once.

I don't really have a problem with politely pointing out the downsides
of the current state, but you need to be patient if you don't actually
have a solution for them as nothing is going to happen without one.

So, in an attempt to try to make this discussion more productive, feel
free to start a thread if you have any ideas of practical solutions
for making life better for mixed-keyword users?  My biggest suggestion
would be to avoid pruning older ~arch versions unless they have
serious problems, so that they can become potential stable targets
later, and that maintainers should always have a path to stable in
mind.  Another suggestion would be for maintainers to store some kind
of metadata that communicates their stabilization/versioning strategy
(which could be useful both to mixed-keyword users and to
co-maintainers or other random devs who need to touch ebuilds).  Some
package just can never go stable, and some version series might never
go stable due to upstream reasons, and it would be nice if that were
all captured in some way.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 18/11/15 13:01, Rich Freeman wrote:
> People who run ~arch are not really end-users - they're 
> contributors who have volunteered to test packages.
We are talking about people who run Gentoo stable who need to
keyword several specific packages because the lack of manpower
leads to Gentoo stable by itself not being very usable for most
people.


Whatever. I just wanted to raise my concern. It has been raised.
You're all free to not care. Too bad for the user^Wthankless
contributors.
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 18/11/15 12:59, Rich Freeman wrote:
> Actually, what is less clear to me is how portage versioning
> actually works, or if we attach any meaning to the version numbers
> at all.
The higher number is the newer version.

- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 6:12 AM, Alexander Berntsen  wrote:
> When I do QA in projects I'm involved with (at least outside of
> Gentoo), we don't do it live on end-user systems. I'll leave the
> details as an exercise for the Gentoo developer.
>

People who run ~arch are not really end-users - they're contributors
who have volunteered to test packages.

But, if you want to contribute a unit testing framework for portage
I'm sure it would be welcome!

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 6:05 AM, Ulrich Mueller  wrote:
>
> And on what basis would you stabilise Portage, when there are no
> ebuilds in the tree to test its EAPI 6 code?
>

As long as the EAPI6 code in the new portage is no more broken than
the EAPI6 code in the current stable version of portage (which doesn't
work/exist at all), it isn't much of a regression.  What would be more
of a pain is dealing with fixes in stable.

But, I don't have a problem with starting to use EAPI6 now, mainly
because the ~arch version of portage does not require any new ~arch
dependencies that would create a mess for stable users.  So, if a user
needs to switch to a newer portage for a month or two it shouldn't be
that big of a deal.

Actually, what is less clear to me is how portage versioning actually
works, or if we attach any meaning to the version numbers at all.
Both the stable and unstable series are on 2.2.x, but there are no
versions in the tree between 2.2.20 and 2.2.23.

The main thing I find painful in following ~arch on the odd package is
when maintainers drop versions quickly after bumping them.  That tends
to result in a situation where if you follow ~arch you end up having
to accept lots of updates because none of the versions stay in the
tree long enough to actually get stabilized.  Unless a ~arch package
version is so broken that it could never be stabilized it is probably
better to leave them there so that it is easier for users to drop back
from ~arch to stable without downgrading.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 18/11/15 12:23, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> That sort of QA should take place before making a new Portage 
> relaese. I was talking about marking it stable, though.
The problem we are talking about isn't making sure Portage's EAPI 6
support is bug free, but the pain caused by encouraging widespread use
of features not available in the stabilised Portage.

> Quoting the devmanual:
> 
> arch Both the package version and the ebuild are widely tested, 
> known to work and not have any serious issues on the indicated 
> platform.
> 
> "Widely tested" has always meant tested on unstable users'
> systems.
Appealing to tradition or technical debt is not a strong way of
convincing me. That you've been doing things wrong all along does not
make for a good excuse to keep doing it wrong.
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Ulrich Mueller]

> On Wed, 18 Nov 2015, Alexander Berntsen wrote:

>> And on what basis would you stabilise Portage, when there are no 
>> ebuilds in the tree to test its EAPI 6 code?
> When I do QA in projects I'm involved with (at least outside of
> Gentoo), we don't do it live on end-user systems. I'll leave the
> details as an exercise for the Gentoo developer.

That sort of QA should take place before making a new Portage relaese.
I was talking about marking it stable, though.

Quoting the devmanual:

   arch
   Both the package version and the ebuild are widely tested, known
   to work and not have any serious issues on the indicated platform.

"Widely tested" has always meant tested on unstable users' systems.

Ulrich


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Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 18/11/15 12:05, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> Only that there is no real difference to the existing situation
> when mixing stable and unstable. It is not guaranteed that all
> dependencies of an unstable package are stable, so already now
> users may have to accept the ~ keyword for dependencies in some
> cases. Similarly, such users may have to accept EAPI 6 for some
> dependencies, which implies that they install a package manager
> supporting EAPI 6.
There's a difference between some packages being troublesome, and
encouraging everyone to rewrite their eclasses and ebuilds, if the end
result is a huge portion of ebuilds causing headaches.

> And on what basis would you stabilise Portage, when there are no 
> ebuilds in the tree to test its EAPI 6 code?
When I do QA in projects I'm involved with (at least outside of
Gentoo), we don't do it live on end-user systems. I'll leave the
details as an exercise for the Gentoo developer.

> If we had followed this argument in the past, we would be at EAPI
> 0 still.
Reaching.
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Ulrich Mueller]

> On Wed, 18 Nov 2015, Alexander Berntsen wrote:

> On 18/11/15 08:25, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
>> - If you mix stable and unstable then you are by definition an 
>> advanced user, who will be able to cope with the situation. :)
> This attitude is shitty, and I am willing to wager a really big
> bunch of users fall into this category.

Only that there is no real difference to the existing situation when
mixing stable and unstable. It is not guaranteed that all dependencies
of an unstable package are stable, so already now users may have to
accept the ~ keyword for dependencies in some cases. Similarly, such
users may have to accept EAPI 6 for some dependencies, which implies
that they install a package manager supporting EAPI 6.

> I don't think EAPI 6 is *that* shiny, that we need to start using it
> prior to stable Portage supporting it.

And on what basis would you stabilise Portage, when there are no
ebuilds in the tree to test its EAPI 6 code?

> It's a potential mess for a huge portion of our users.

If we had followed this argument in the past, we would be at EAPI 0
still.

Ulrich


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Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Raymond Jennings]

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 1:25 AM, Alexander Berntsen 
wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA512
>
> On 18/11/15 08:25, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> > - If you mix stable and unstable then you are by definition an
> > advanced user, who will be able to cope with the situation. :)
> This attitude is shitty, and I am willing to wager a really big bunch
> of users fall into this category.
>

I second the motion.

I can vouch for myself as such a user who often uses unstable packages to
get new features or dodge bugs in the stable versions.

As a general default, though, I stick with stable packages.

Taking an occasional unstable package in an otherwise stable system (and
obeying any revbump directives provoked by dependencies) is a legal
operation that is actually supported by commit rules that prohibit stable
versions from depending on unstable versions of dependencies.

Why would that policy exist if mixing stable and unstable were unsupported?

I don't think EAPI 6 is *that* shiny, that we need to start using it
> prior to stable Portage supporting it. It's a potential mess for a
> huge portion of our users.
>
>
> That said, I'd like to extend my thanks to Micha? for working on this.
> - --
> Alexander
> berna...@gentoo.org
> https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Alexander Berntsen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 18/11/15 08:25, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> - If you mix stable and unstable then you are by definition an 
> advanced user, who will be able to cope with the situation. :)
This attitude is shitty, and I am willing to wager a really big bunch
of users fall into this category.

I don't think EAPI 6 is *that* shiny, that we need to start using it
prior to stable Portage supporting it. It's a potential mess for a
huge portion of our users.


That said, I'd like to extend my thanks to Micha? for working on this.
- -- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Ulrich Mueller]

> On Tue, 17 Nov 2015, Michael Orlitzky wrote:

> It doesn't seem that unlikely to me...

>   1. Otherwise stable system with package "foo" keyworded as ~arch.

>   2. foo needs some dependency of a dependency named "bar".

>   3. The bar maintainer revbumps and removes the old EAPI=5 ebuild.

> I don't really care either way, I'm just wondering whether this is
> "safe" because it's actually safe, or "safe" because we're gonna do
> it anyway.

Actually it is quite simple:

- The stable tree should not contain any EAPI 6 ebuilds at this point,
  so stable users should not see any change.
- Unstable users will have a package manager aware of EAPI 6, so all
  ebuilds will be visible for it.
- If you mix stable and unstable then you are by definition an
  advanced user, who will be able to cope with the situation. :)

Ulrich


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Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Michał Górny]

On Tue, 17 Nov 2015 20:20:26 -0500
NP-Hardass  wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA256
> 
> On Tue, 17 Nov 2015 23:09:34 +0100
> Michał Górny  wrote:
> 
> > Fellow Developers!
> > 
> > I have the pleasure to announce that portage-2.2.25 has just been
> > committed and it comes with complete EAPI 6 support. This effectively
> > means that from this moment forward Gentoo developers are permitted to
> > commit EAPI 6 ebuilds to ~arch.
> > 
> > Some quick notes:
> > 
> > 1. Remember that you can't stabilize ebuilds using EAPI 6. Therefore,
> > if you go for EAPI 6, you ebuild may be forced to stay ~arch for quite
> > a while.
> > 
> > 2. The Portage implementation needs more testing and can be buggy.
> > Write ebuilds according to the spec, not Portage behavior or they will
> > fail.
> > 
> > 2a. It just occurred to me that Portage does not fail when eapply_user
> > is not called. This is a bug, so make sure to call it or
> > default_src_prepare.
> > 
> > 3. EAPI 6 is not a drop-in replacement for EAPI 5. Study it to use it
> > efficiently. Use it as an opportunity to improve the API of your
> > eclasses.
> > 
> > 4. I've written an extensive guide [1] with some explanations
> > and rationale for many of the features. Consider it a must-read.
> > 
> > 4a. We need someone to update the devmanual.
> > 
> > [1]:https://blogs.gentoo.org/mgorny/2015/11/13/the-ultimate-guide-to-eapi-6/
> >   
> 
> I just read your guide.   What's the recommended manner to upgrade an
> ebuild from the autotools-utils eclass?  General advice would be
> preferred, but I'm specifically looking at app-emulation/wine.

Basically you replace autotools-utils with default phase functions
and/or econf "${myeconfargs[@]}" or alike. In case of wine, the only
usage seems to be 'autotools-utils_src_prepare' which goes straight to
'default'.

For , you also 'inherit autotools' and run eautoreconf explicitly.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny



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Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 11/17/2015 08:04 PM, Ian Stakenvicius wrote:
> 
> If your PM doesn't support EAPI6, then those ebuilds will be ignored
> just as if they do not exist.  It is plenty safe.  There can be
> issues if EAPI5 or older ~arch packages start -needing- EAPI6-only
> ~arch dependencies, but so long as people are careful (and likely,
> start bumping to EAPI6 along with the dependencies) then things will
> work out without much incident.
> 

It doesn't seem that unlikely to me...

  1. Otherwise stable system with package "foo" keyworded as ~arch.

  2. foo needs some dependency of a dependency named "bar".

  3. The bar maintainer revbumps and removes the old EAPI=5 ebuild.

I don't really care either way, I'm just wondering whether this is
"safe" because it's actually safe, or "safe" because we're gonna do it
anyway.

Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[NP-Hardass]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On Tue, 17 Nov 2015 23:09:34 +0100
Michał Górny  wrote:

> Fellow Developers!
> 
> I have the pleasure to announce that portage-2.2.25 has just been
> committed and it comes with complete EAPI 6 support. This effectively
> means that from this moment forward Gentoo developers are permitted to
> commit EAPI 6 ebuilds to ~arch.
> 
> Some quick notes:
> 
> 1. Remember that you can't stabilize ebuilds using EAPI 6. Therefore,
> if you go for EAPI 6, you ebuild may be forced to stay ~arch for quite
> a while.
> 
> 2. The Portage implementation needs more testing and can be buggy.
> Write ebuilds according to the spec, not Portage behavior or they will
> fail.
> 
> 2a. It just occurred to me that Portage does not fail when eapply_user
> is not called. This is a bug, so make sure to call it or
> default_src_prepare.
> 
> 3. EAPI 6 is not a drop-in replacement for EAPI 5. Study it to use it
> efficiently. Use it as an opportunity to improve the API of your
> eclasses.
> 
> 4. I've written an extensive guide [1] with some explanations
> and rationale for many of the features. Consider it a must-read.
> 
> 4a. We need someone to update the devmanual.
> 
> [1]:https://blogs.gentoo.org/mgorny/2015/11/13/the-ultimate-guide-to-eapi-6/
> 

I just read your guide.   What's the recommended manner to upgrade an
ebuild from the autotools-utils eclass?  General advice would be
preferred, but I'm specifically looking at app-emulation/wine.

- -- 
NP-Hardass
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Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Ian Stakenvicius]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On 17/11/15 05:45 PM, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> On 11/17/2015 05:09 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
>> Fellow Developers!
>> 
>> I have the pleasure to announce that portage-2.2.25 has just
>> been committed and it comes with complete EAPI 6 support. This
>> effectively means that from this moment forward Gentoo
>> developers are permitted to commit EAPI 6 ebuilds to ~arch.
>> 
> 
> Thanks for all the work on this and the guide.
> 
> Is it really safe to start committing ~arch ebuilds that don't
> work with stable portage? Might not things get wonky for stable
> users who have a few keyworded packages?
> 
> For developers, is my stable version of repoman smart enough to
> make sure I don't break any dependencies in this way?
> 
> 

If your PM doesn't support EAPI6, then those ebuilds will be ignored
just as if they do not exist.  It is plenty safe.  There can be
issues if EAPI5 or older ~arch packages start -needing- EAPI6-only
~arch dependencies, but so long as people are careful (and likely,
start bumping to EAPI6 along with the dependencies) then things will
work out without much incident.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Mike Gilbert]

On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 5:45 PM, Michael Orlitzky  wrote:
> For developers, is my stable version of repoman smart enough to make
> sure I don't break any dependencies in this way?

As a developer, please run the latest ~arch version of repoman at the
very least.

Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 11/17/2015 05:09 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
> Fellow Developers!
> 
> I have the pleasure to announce that portage-2.2.25 has just been
> committed and it comes with complete EAPI 6 support. This effectively
> means that from this moment forward Gentoo developers are permitted to
> commit EAPI 6 ebuilds to ~arch.
> 

Thanks for all the work on this and the guide.

Is it really safe to start committing ~arch ebuilds that don't work with
stable portage? Might not things get wonky for stable users who have a
few keyworded packages?

For developers, is my stable version of repoman smart enough to make
sure I don't break any dependencies in this way?

[gentoo-dev] EAPI 6 portage is out!

[Michał Górny]

Fellow Developers!

I have the pleasure to announce that portage-2.2.25 has just been
committed and it comes with complete EAPI 6 support. This effectively
means that from this moment forward Gentoo developers are permitted to
commit EAPI 6 ebuilds to ~arch.

Some quick notes:

1. Remember that you can't stabilize ebuilds using EAPI 6. Therefore,
if you go for EAPI 6, you ebuild may be forced to stay ~arch for quite
a while.

2. The Portage implementation needs more testing and can be buggy.
Write ebuilds according to the spec, not Portage behavior or they will
fail.

2a. It just occurred to me that Portage does not fail when eapply_user
is not called. This is a bug, so make sure to call it or
default_src_prepare.

3. EAPI 6 is not a drop-in replacement for EAPI 5. Study it to use it
efficiently. Use it as an opportunity to improve the API of your
eclasses.

4. I've written an extensive guide [1] with some explanations
and rationale for many of the features. Consider it a must-read.

4a. We need someone to update the devmanual.

[1]:https://blogs.gentoo.org/mgorny/2015/11/13/the-ultimate-guide-to-eapi-6/

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny



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