Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2 (resend)
Pardon me if you receive this message two times, I'm not sure it went to the ml the first time: On Wed, Jun 06, 2007 at 04:49:12PM -0700, Chris Gianelloni wrote: On Wed, 2007-06-06 at 14:08 -0300, Mauricio Lima Pilla wrote: Good luck for the remaining proctors, they will need as they aparently can't even expect any support from council members. There's a *BIG* difference between support and blind support. Nobody ever promised the proctors blind support. And the proctors never asked for blind support. If you didn´t like something the proctors did, you should have contacted them first before unauthorizing them in a public mailing list, asking why they did so. The way you did it, it was like you wanted the proctors to fail. As for the guidelines, as far as I remember you were invited to discuss them with the proctors and in some point you chose to leave the process. Pilla signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
Chris Gianelloni wrote: [Tue Jun 05 2007, 05:00:28PM CDT] As a member of the Council, I find it personally offensive that the Proctors have taken this action on what wasn't even a problem thread. I'm sick of this. I call for the immediate disbanding of the Proctors. As much as I dislike many of the posts from geoman/ciaranm, they really had not done anything worthy of being banned. I ask that this ban is undone *immediately* and that the Proctors have their powers revoked. *Sigh* I, too, was quite surprised to see people banned for what appeared to be reasonable behavior (in this case). That said, I wish you'd started w/ a more temperate response, instead of going all nuclear on the proctors. It's likely to create some hard feelings, and that just makes things harder to fix. So, how about using this incident as an opportunity for a calm discussion about the mandate and role of the proctors? The proctors clearly felt that they should shut down this thread _before_ things got out of hand. Perhaps the goal was laudable, but the methods were not? (As an aside, I didn't realize that Roy's e-mail was supposed to be a proctor directive.) Or are people really looking for the proctors to get involved only when behavior is particularly egregious? Is there a way to fix the current system, or should it be chucked entirely, as has been suggested? Well reasoned thoughts and opinions welcome. -g2boojum- -- Grant Goodyear Gentoo Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gentoo.org/~g2boojum GPG Fingerprint: D706 9802 1663 DEF5 81B0 9573 A6DC 7152 E0F6 5B76 pgphkHI9WqqNz.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 10:29:47 -0500 Grant Goodyear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (As an aside, I didn't realize that Roy's e-mail was supposed to be a proctor directive.) He changed the subject and signed on behalf of gentoo-proctors. Is there a way to fix the current system, or should it be chucked entirely, as has been suggested? The problem is not so much the system as a small number of the proctors. Perhaps it should be restaffed with people who aren't so used to wielding god-like powers on the forums, where anyone who dares say anything that disagrees with a small clique's collective views can be banned permanently with no accountability. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 10:29:47 -0500 Grant Goodyear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (As an aside, I didn't realize that Roy's e-mail was supposed to be a proctor directive.) He changed the subject and signed on behalf of gentoo-proctors. Is there a way to fix the current system, or should it be chucked entirely, as has been suggested? The problem is not so much the system as a small number of the proctors. Perhaps it should be restaffed with people who aren't so used to wielding god-like powers on the forums, where anyone who dares say anything that disagrees with a small clique's collective views can be banned permanently with no accountability. Or... perhaps when asked not to respond to a thread for 24 hours, you could keep your fucking trap shut? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGZtZx1c+EtXTHkJcRAosHAJ42XbbNLSEaOVeLtAcEvTFMrmhAvQCggR5l NKfMVHNa0HuInct529dbI0s= =s4+3 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 10:44:49 -0500 Steev Klimaszewski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or... perhaps when asked not to respond to a thread for 24 hours, you could keep your fucking trap shut? If I'm asked by someone with a good reason, sure. If I'm told to by someone on a power trip with a history of abusing authority who's making insane claims about humour not being allowed and trying to achieve a particular outcome to a discussion by censoring anyone who disagrees with them, then no. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
Am Mittwoch 06 Juni 2007 17:42 schrieb Ciaran McCreesh: Is there a way to fix the current system, or should it be chucked entirely, as has been suggested? The problem is not so much the system as a small number of the proctors. I feel like _anyone_* who willingly acts against a dont-reply-warning/thread-time-out which was recognized as such are to be banned, and therefore I dont really see the problem, except that someone maybe did _not_ recognize the warning as such, although Roy changed topic and signed with proctors. To fix this, one could additionally use [EMAIL PROTECTED] or so, which should make it _very_ clear that this is not a personal please, calm down everybody-mail It's different, of course, if someone didnt yet recieve the proctors warning, and sent a reply within minutes, which wasn't the case as the mails where sent as reply to Roys mail, so... * council and proctors excepted -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
On Wed, Jun 06, 2007 at 10:29:47AM -0500, Grant Goodyear wrote: Chris Gianelloni wrote: [Tue Jun 05 2007, 05:00:28PM CDT] As a member of the Council, I find it personally offensive that the Proctors have taken this action on what wasn't even a problem thread. I'm sick of this. I call for the immediate disbanding of the Proctors. As much as I dislike many of the posts from geoman/ciaranm, they really had not done anything worthy of being banned. I ask that this ban is undone *immediately* and that the Proctors have their powers revoked. *Sigh* I, too, was quite surprised to see people banned for what appeared to be reasonable behavior (in this case). That said, I wish you'd started w/ a more temperate response, instead of going all nuclear on the proctors. It's likely to create some hard feelings, and that just makes things harder to fix. So, how about using this incident as an opportunity for a calm discussion about the mandate and role of the proctors? The proctors clearly felt that they should shut down this thread _before_ things got out of hand. Perhaps the goal was laudable, but the methods were not? (As an aside, I didn't realize that Roy's e-mail was supposed to be a proctor directive.) Or are people really looking for the proctors to get involved only when behavior is particularly egregious? Is there a way to fix the current system, or should it be chucked entirely, as has been suggested? Well reasoned thoughts and opinions welcome. I was originally planning to send this yesterday, but wanted to delay it a bit because the list had just calmed down again. I'm a recent addition to the proctors team, probably pulled in mainly because I'm a #gentoo op, and have also been involved with conflict resolution things for the userrel project. This was the first time I was around as a proctor during an event involving proctors. A disclaimer: I was a bit tired when I originally wrote this and have not fully proofread this, so expect the grammar to be a bit bizarre in places. I probably missed some relevant bits too, but this is more than long enough already. An attempt at a timeline of what happened with that thread: An initial mail from Benjamin Judas is sent to the gentoo-dev list (which is mainly a *technical* list), with a sent date of 20:09 UTC, arriving in my inbox at 20:15 UTC. It contains pretty much no technical content, and some things (small scottish griper brain, I'm waiting for the stinky comments from the usual corners. that seem likely to lead to flames. The second mail is from Stephen P. Becker, dated 20:18 UTC (less than 10 minutes after the first), arriving in my inbox at 20:25 UTC. It contains no technical content, but does contain Clean the sand out of your pee-hole..., which might be a joke but seems likely to fuel the flames even if it was meant as one. More mails follow, with pretty much no technical points in them. I'll skip them, since they did not really affect the decisions that were made. Around this time a proctors member (NeddySeagoon) sends another mail to the list asking people to stop replying. He was alerted to the thread via irc at around 20:33 UTC (after which he still had to actually read the start of the thread). His mail has a sent header of 20:44, arriving in my inbox at 20:55. This gets two replies that both make it rather obvious they disagree with this suggestion and definitely do not intend to stop posting to the thread (one sent 20:52 (*before* Neddy's mail makes it to my inbox) arriving in my inbox at 21:00, and one sent 21:00 arriving at 21:10). At this point the decision is made to *temporarily* disable ml access for those two people in an attempt to let the thread die out (mail from amne, 21:13 sent, 21:20 in my inbox). Please take a look at the timestamps above. We spend some time reading the mail sent to the list, discussing what to do, and typing in replies. Add in the roughly ten minute lag between sending mail to the list and it reaching most of the subscribers and we're continually about 15 minutes behind no matter how quickly we try to react. And we do try to react quickly, because it seems likely more flames are being sent and making their way through the list software while we decide what to do. Amne actually responded to the second reply to NeddySeagoon's mail before I had the time to receive and read the thing. In hindsight it is obvious this attempt to stop the thread failed. A flood of replies resulted, most of them taking apart the wording of NeddySeagoon's original request to stop replying. And some more flaming later we get the following from a council member to the -dev list: From Chris Gianelloni [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I really have to agree with you. The proctors have completely lost their way. They are ineffective. They tend to compound the problems they were created to stop. Yes, they obviously did not manage to stop this particular thread. I am not sure how they *could* have
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 10:44:49 -0500 Steev Klimaszewski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or... perhaps when asked not to respond to a thread for 24 hours, you could keep your fucking trap shut? If I'm asked by someone with a good reason, sure. If I'm told to by someone on a power trip with a history of abusing authority who's making insane claims about humour not being allowed and trying to achieve a particular outcome to a discussion by censoring anyone who disagrees with them, then no. Technical prowess you have immensely, which is good because it makes up for your lack of common sense. I am done, and you are now killfiled. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
Am Mittwoch 06 Juni 2007 17:53 schrieb Ciaran McCreesh: On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 10:44:49 -0500 Steev Klimaszewski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or... perhaps when asked not to respond to a thread for 24 hours, you could keep your fucking trap shut? If I'm asked by someone with a good reason, sure. If I'm told to by someone on a power trip with a history of abusing authority who's making insane claims about humour not being allowed and trying to achieve a particular outcome to a discussion by censoring anyone who disagrees with them, then no. First: Avoiding a flame war, and shutting it down as soon as it can clearly be seen it will become one, is a very good reason to most of us, i suppose. Second: Noone clamed humor would not be allowed. Third: There was no cencorship. There was a forced delay, after which anyone would have been free to spread his/her ideas again. Last: Just stop claiming others are insane, abusive power-trippers just because you did not abide by a rule and got your punishment for it. If you dont like the way things are, show well-reasons options out of the situation, write an eMail to the user-relations or the Council expressing your problem. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 18:08:30 +0200 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just stop claiming others are insane, abusive power-trippers just because you did not abide by a rule and got your punishment for it. I'm claiming it because plenty of other people agree. You *did* see the response that the proctors got from various Gentoo developers, right? -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 10:29:47 -0500 Grant Goodyear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (As an aside, I didn't realize that Roy's e-mail was supposed to be a proctor directive.) He changed the subject and signed on behalf of gentoo-proctors. Is there a way to fix the current system, or should it be chucked entirely, as has been suggested? The problem is not so much the system as a small number of the proctors. Perhaps it should be restaffed with people who aren't so used to wielding god-like powers on the forums, where anyone who dares say anything that disagrees with a small clique's collective views can be banned permanently with no accountability. Thanks for your wonderful insight, No one had any idea the proctors were a group with no accountability. When the council reviews everything they've done in the past month, we're just joking around. Back to reality, go take a long walk off a short pier. -- === Mike Doty kingtaco -at- gentoo.org Gentoo Council Gentoo Infrastructure Gentoo/AMD64 Strategic Lead GPG: E1A5 1C9C 93FE F430 C1D6 F2AF 806B A2E4 19F4 AE05 === -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just stop claiming others are insane, abusive power-trippers just because you did not abide by a rule and got your punishment for it. I'm claiming it because plenty of other people agree. You *did* see the response that the proctors got from various Gentoo developers, right? What I saw was a response to what you as one of the I-will-reply-anyway guys caused, and I bet if people had just stayed quiet for 24 hours the thread would have died out rather quickly. The replys by other devs seem to be allmost exclusivly be based on the fact, that people like you did not take their time calming down, or if they were calm anyway, take their time to do whatever for 24 hours. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 09:33:29 -0700 Mike Doty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem is not so much the system as a small number of the proctors. Perhaps it should be restaffed with people who aren't so used to wielding god-like powers on the forums, where anyone who dares say anything that disagrees with a small clique's collective views can be banned permanently with no accountability. Thanks for your wonderful insight, No one had any idea the proctors were a group with no accountability. When the council reviews everything they've done in the past month, we're just joking around. That wasn't what I said. What I said was that the forums staff have no accountability, and that the proctors were suffering as a result of containing too many of said forums staff. Perhaps you should take the time to read things properly before attempting sarcasm... Back to reality, go take a long walk off a short pier. So now you're not content with filing hypocritical devrel bugs complaining of people swearing in places you yourself regularly swear, and are escalating the thread to ad hominem? (Note that it isn't ad hominem if the claims are relevant to the matter at hand, so this thread was previously ad hominem free.) -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 09:33:29 -0700 Mike Doty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem is not so much the system as a small number of the proctors. Perhaps it should be restaffed with people who aren't so used to wielding god-like powers on the forums, where anyone who dares say anything that disagrees with a small clique's collective views can be banned permanently with no accountability. Thanks for your wonderful insight, No one had any idea the proctors were a group with no accountability. When the council reviews everything they've done in the past month, we're just joking around. That wasn't what I said. What I said was that the forums staff have no accountability, and that the proctors were suffering as a result of containing too many of said forums staff. Perhaps you should take the time to read things properly before attempting sarcasm... Perhaps you should go take a long walk off a short pier. Back to reality, go take a long walk off a short pier. So now you're not content with filing hypocritical devrel bugs complaining of people swearing in places you yourself regularly swear, and are escalating the thread to ad hominem? (Note that it isn't ad hominem if the claims are relevant to the matter at hand, so this thread was previously ad hominem free.) Oh, I'm so hurt. You think I'm a hypocrite. Man, what will I ever do? Newsflash, I know I'm a hypocrite, which is a lot better than the childish passive-aggressive asshole you are. -- === Mike Doty kingtaco -at- gentoo.org Gentoo Council Gentoo Infrastructure Gentoo/AMD64 Strategic Lead GPG: E1A5 1C9C 93FE F430 C1D6 F2AF 806B A2E4 19F4 AE05 === -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
Mike Doty wrote: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 10:29:47 -0500 Grant Goodyear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (As an aside, I didn't realize that Roy's e-mail was supposed to be a proctor directive.) He changed the subject and signed on behalf of gentoo-proctors. Is there a way to fix the current system, or should it be chucked entirely, as has been suggested? The problem is not so much the system as a small number of the proctors. Perhaps it should be restaffed with people who aren't so used to wielding god-like powers on the forums, where anyone who dares say anything that disagrees with a small clique's collective views can be banned permanently with no accountability. snip Back to reality, go take a long walk off a short pier. ++ -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
On Wednesday 06 June 2007 13:48:53 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: That wasn't what I said. What I said was that the forums staff have no accountability, and that the proctors were suffering as a result of containing too many of said forums staff. That's bullshit. We are subject to the same rules as the other gentoo devs/staffs. Stop spreading your FUD around (I think I said that before). As for the forum staff in the proctors, I think that some of us could be found in the proctors because we cared and we tried to do something to improve our communication media (if we had any success on it, that's another discussion). But the number of forum staff in the proctors has recently decreased, as amne, jmbsvicetto, and myself decided to step down and leave the proctors. Good luck for the remaining proctors, they will need as they aparently can't even expect any support from council members. Cheers Pilla signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
On Wed, Jun 06, 2007 at 10:29:47AM -0500, Grant Goodyear wrote: So, how about using this incident as an opportunity for a calm discussion about the mandate and role of the proctors? The proctors clearly felt that they should shut down this thread _before_ things got out of hand. I whole-heartedly agree with this. It is probably safe to assume that everyone would like Gentoo to find a system that works to prevent and/or put out flames. In the process of figuring out the proper way, we are bound to make mistakes. We can't expect ourselves to come up with a complete and perfect plan in advance and live happily ever after. Why not just assume a mistake was made when you don't agree with something like this and then either wait for the specified period or go to the proctors mailing list to explain how you think it could have been better handled? Why would an action by the proctors like this one make you want to quit Gentoo altogether? Suppose that after discussion the proctors would agree with you that it should have been handled differently and that they made a mistake, would that have had a lasting effect on your motivation? I can't imagine it would have. On Wed, Jun 06, 2007 at 06:06:14PM +0200, Marien Zwart wrote: People really need to make up their mind about what the -dev ml *is*. If the proctors are not supposed to keep the discussions there mostly focused on technical matters and keep people from attacking each other (I quote again: Clean the sand out of your pee-hole...? does that really belong on a technical list like this?) then that should be made a lot more obvious than it currently is. I agree that the proctors should just use their best insight to determine if something is ok for a technical list. This will inevitably mean that sometimes some posts will be incorrectly tagged as over the line, but the worst that will do is to ruin a joke. Of course you'll be annoyed that your joke was misunderstood, but for the good of the list just suck it up and move along. It will not prevent this list from fulfilling its purpose of being a place to discuss technical issues, which is the most important thing if you ask me. Regards, Maurice. -- Maurice van der Pot Gentoo Linux Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gentoo.org Creator of BiteMe! [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.kfk4ever.com pgppRf0B0qUew.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Mike Doty wrote: Perhaps you should go take a long walk off a short pier. [snip] Oh, I'm so hurt. You think I'm a hypocrite. Man, what will I ever do? Newsflash, I know I'm a hypocrite, which is a lot better than the childish passive-aggressive asshole you are. Mike, Please. You are counsel. Act like it. Stay civil. No matter what. Marijn -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGZvJ3p/VmCx0OL2wRApAwAJ9NIyLC65mFm+ugs7FUeRgKQC2g3gCgmAN7 h0FAZ9/Eequ/zritPXNFWOk= =pg/m -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
Grant Goodyear [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: got out of hand. Perhaps the goal was laudable, but the methods were not? (As an aside, I didn't realize that Roy's e-mail was supposed to be a proctor directive.) Or are people really looking for the proctors to get involved only when behavior is particularly egregious? Is there I find it disappointing (maybe telling, if one is less charitable) that the Proctors never censured the original poster for either the tone of the message, nor the personal invective it contained, and still haven't. I'd imagine clear violations of the CoC to result in at least a public admonishment and warning. -- ...jsled http://asynchronous.org/ - a=jsled; b=asynchronous.org; echo [EMAIL PROTECTED] pgpGFkGVXVXrs.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 10:44:49 -0500 Steev Klimaszewski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or... perhaps when asked not to respond to a thread for 24 hours, you could keep your fucking trap shut? If I'm asked by someone with a good reason, sure. If I'm told to by someone on a power trip with a history of abusing authority who's making NeddySeagoon has a history of abusing authority? Wow... /Anders -- Anders Hellgren (kallamej) Gentoo Forums Administrator -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Josh Sled wrote: Grant Goodyear [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: got out of hand. Perhaps the goal was laudable, but the methods were not? (As an aside, I didn't realize that Roy's e-mail was supposed to be a proctor directive.) Or are people really looking for the proctors to get involved only when behavior is particularly egregious? Is there I find it disappointing (maybe telling, if one is less charitable) that the Proctors never censured the original poster for either the tone of the message, nor the personal invective it contained, and still haven't. I'd imagine clear violations of the CoC to result in at least a public admonishment and warning. The proctors have no power now, thanks to Chris publicly stabbing them in the back after they tried to assert some of their powers - they requested that no one respond to the thread for 24 hours, and people couldn't respect that simple request - and now with what Chris said, it just fuels the flames due to Council backing them - as Ciaran has already asserted in a mail earlier in the thread. Great job Chris, way to stick it to them. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGZvmA1c+EtXTHkJcRAhgZAJ92BOAq8cd+Tp1cxXSUC8sNvw5eUwCfeOeF Kh4cZO7lgVAleBC5s20zZmY= =0PzG -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
Josh Sled wrote: I find it disappointing (maybe telling, if one is less charitable) that the Proctors never censured the original poster for either the tone of the message, nor the personal invective it contained, and still haven't. I'd imagine clear violations of the CoC to result in at least a public admonishment and warning. I feel like it was correct to adress the most pressing issue at first: An arising flame war, which, at the time, was still manageable. The actions which followed, namely that certain people did not abide by the 24-hour-delay, might well have made a planned warning for Benjamin Judas drawn in flames. Note I neither have the insight to black up my thesis, nor to proof it wrong. I just wanted to show there might well be another side, Josh maybe didnt know of. (By which, in turn, I dont want to claim he hasnt enough insight or whater.) /disclaimer -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
drawn in flames. drown, please excuse my spelling. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
Dnia 06-06-2007, śro o godzinie 18:32 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] napisał(a): Ciaran McCreesh wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just stop claiming others are insane, abusive power-trippers just because you did not abide by a rule and got your punishment for it. I'm claiming it because plenty of other people agree. You *did* see the response that the proctors got from various Gentoo developers, right? What I saw was a response to what you as one of the I-will-reply-anyway guys caused, and I bet if people had just stayed quiet for 24 hours the thread would have died out rather quickly. The replys by other devs seem to be allmost exclusivly be based on the fact, that people like you did not take their time calming down, or if they were calm anyway, take their time to do whatever for 24 hours. Why to stop the topic? IMO it *is* important, and we should make a correct decision. You blame beejey. Ok, blame him about what he said, but paradoxically he uncovered that whole mess, that noone was talking about before. ++ for I-will-reply-anyway guys -- ,-. | Dawid Węgliński | | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | cla @ irc.freenode.net | | GPG: 295E72D9 | `-' signature.asc Description: To jest część listu podpisana cyfrowo
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Anders Hellgren wrote: On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 10:44:49 -0500 Steev Klimaszewski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or... perhaps when asked not to respond to a thread for 24 hours, you could keep your fucking trap shut? If I'm asked by someone with a good reason, sure. If I'm told to by someone on a power trip with a history of abusing authority who's making NeddySeagoon has a history of abusing authority? Wow... /Anders Ciaran, I know how much you like the forums team, but as Anders has pointed, you're stretching too far by accusing Roy of abusing authority. With all the due respect I have for the other forums team members, Roy is probably the most considerate, polite and helpful individual I've ever met online. He's currently the top poster in the forums and although I can't claim to have read all his posts, I have read quite a few and I've never seen any abuse of power by him. Everyone else, I'm sorry to add one more mail to this thread, but I couldn't remain silent about this accusation. - -- Regards, Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org Gentoo- forums / Userrel -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGZzXwcAWygvVEyAIRAnMlAJ0SlTTuizulwXFzU19gW25Oa1QF+QCfSzqZ 9/fxa4femkbVnYiwVVWTy7U= =5faK -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
On Wed, 2007-06-06 at 14:08 -0300, Mauricio Lima Pilla wrote: Good luck for the remaining proctors, they will need as they aparently can't even expect any support from council members. There's a *BIG* difference between support and blind support. Nobody ever promised the proctors blind support. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
On Wed, 2007-06-06 at 13:14 -0500, Steev Klimaszewski wrote: Great job Chris, way to stick it to them. Yes. It absolutely *is* a great job that I voiced my opinion in a manner that I thought was most beneficial for Gentoo. Shame on me for ever thinking about what might be best for Gentoo. Shame on me! I mean, we should never speak up when we think someone in authority is doing wrong. Yeah, I really stabbed someone in the back by vocalizing my dissenting opinion, publicly, no less. I would say that I am sorry that certain proctors took my observations of the group as a whole personally, but I am not. I didn't mean it to be personal, and am not going to waste my time holding people's hands when their feelings get hurt because I expressed my opinion. Sorry, but it just isn't going to happen. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
Dawid Węgliński wrote: Dnia 06-06-2007, śro o godzinie 18:32 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] napisał(a): Ciaran McCreesh wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just stop claiming others are insane, abusive power-trippers just because you did not abide by a rule and got your punishment for it. I'm claiming it because plenty of other people agree. You *did* see the response that the proctors got from various Gentoo developers, right? What I saw was a response to what you as one of the I-will-reply-anyway guys caused, and I bet if people had just stayed quiet for 24 hours the thread would have died out rather quickly. The replys by other devs seem to be allmost exclusivly be based on the fact, that people like you did not take their time calming down, or if they were calm anyway, take their time to do whatever for 24 hours. Why to stop the topic? IMO it *is* important, and we should make a correct decision. You blame beejey. Ok, blame him about what he said, but paradoxically he uncovered that whole mess, that noone was talking about before. ++ for I-will-reply-anyway guys I admit that my wording is not good here, please let me rephrase it: Instead of thread would have died out rather quickly read it as the flame-war part of the thread would have died out rather quickly What I tried to stress with my replies is, that there is no censorship, in contrast to a forced slow-down. Imagine you are angry, but may only say one sentence per hour. A verbal fight should be harder, than it is in the world as we know it. My own interpretation of what Roy wanted is, that he knew personal Please calm down everyone-mails don't help, and therefore he wanted to force people to do so, by delaying the thread for 24 hours. This is not censoring, to my eyes, rather call it de-escalation or whatever you like best. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
On Tue, Jun 05, 2007 at 11:13:25PM +0200, Wernfried Haas wrote: On Tue, Jun 05, 2007 at 09:44:23PM +0100, Roy Bamford wrote: Please step back, take a deep breath and avoid posting to this thread for 24 hours. Folks, while we're cutting some slack to the people replying somewhere else in the thread because they may not have gotten the mail by Roy yet (and that time frame should be over any time now, too), replying to this mail clearly shows you are not following our call to do so. So far we have temporarily suspended both ciaran's and geoman's account from posting and encourage everyone to do as Roy initially suggested. Please also suspend your own account. You're clearly replying to Roy's message. It doesn't matter that you're not contributing to the original discussion, because after Roy's message, neither did Ciaran. Feel free to suspend my account as well. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: Retiring (Was Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2)
On Tue, 2007-06-05 at 15:43 -0600, Jason Wever wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, 5 Jun 2007, Wernfried Haas wrote: So far we have temporarily suspended both ciaran's and geoman's account from posting and encourage everyone to do as Roy initially suggested. Regardless of whether their postings are viewed as useful or not, this action has gone too far in my opinion. As Gentoo now appears to condone this type of behavior when dealing with what are perceived to be problems, I no longer wish to be a part of Gentoo. While at this point there is very little chance of anyone convincing me to return, I hope that the people who can still derive enjoyment from Gentoo continue to do so. Infra, please remove my accounts at your earliest convenience. Jason, If you leave, the plants win. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
On 05/06/07, Chris Gianelloni [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a member of the Council, I find it personally offensive that the Proctors have taken this action on what wasn't even a problem thread. I'm sick of this. I call for the immediate disbanding of the Proctors. As much as I dislike many of the posts from geoman/ciaranm, they really had not done anything worthy of being banned. I ask that this ban is undone *immediately* and that the Proctors have their powers revoked. You are still on the council? Find someone else who is and make one of your two man decision things. Proctors: please let me know when my ban expires. -- Richard Brown -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
On Tue, Jun 05, 2007 at 11:08:27PM +0100, Richard Brown wrote: Proctors: please let me know when my ban expires. You're not even banned? -- Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne (at) gentoo.org http://forums.gentoo.org || http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/proctors/ forum-mods (at) gentoo.org || proctors (at) gentoo.org #gentoo-forums || #gentoo-proctors (freenode) pgpnpwnaXNHoK.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Retiring (Was Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2)
Chris Gianelloni wrote: Jason, If you leave, the plants win. That has just made my day. -- Andrew Gaffney http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/ Gentoo Linux Developer Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: Retiring (Was Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2)
On Tue, 2007-06-05 at 15:43 -0600, Jason Wever wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, 5 Jun 2007, Wernfried Haas wrote: So far we have temporarily suspended both ciaran's and geoman's account from posting and encourage everyone to do as Roy initially suggested. Regardless of whether their postings are viewed as useful or not, this action has gone too far in my opinion. As Gentoo now appears to condone this type of behavior when dealing with what are perceived to be problems, I no longer wish to be a part of Gentoo. While at this point there is very little chance of anyone convincing me to return, I hope that the people who can still derive enjoyment from Gentoo continue to do so. Infra, please remove my accounts at your earliest convenience. Thank you for the work you've put into Gentoo Jason, and for the chance I've had to get to know you. I have a great deal of respect for you and I wish you all the best for the future. Don't be a stranger. Christelx signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Retiring (Was Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2)
On Tue, 5 Jun 2007 15:43:49 -0600 (MDT) Jason Wever [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [..snip..] But who are people going to accidentally hilight now?! :'( signature.asc Description: PGP signature
