[gentoo-dev] Re: New project: Gentoo Seeds
Tach Ramon, 0x2B859DE3 (PGP-PK-ID) Thanks for that post. Ramon van Alteren schrieb: > 9. Most of this mail has been on policies, expected behavior and > perceived behavior. I would like to get this discussion back to > technical issues wrt to generating stages/seeds and livecd's. That's what I wanted to say. releng shouldn't feel useless or anything, you have the right to start a project, but I still think releng is right you two should cooperate. Seeds is in a very early phase, so you can still get in sync with releng and talk about using all knowledge/skills for the good of both. There is no actual need to be a subproject, but both should really share their experiences and communicate a lot, that is the main request (I think). As I just read, releng feels a bit stepped on their toes, because they planned something similar, so you see the overlapping area of interest. And as seemant said: Step back a little, forget about everything and start again. V-Li -- Fingerprint: 68C5 D381 B69A A777 6A91 E999 350A AD7C 2B85 9DE3 http://www.gnupg.org/ -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: New project: Gentoo Seeds
Thomas Cort wrote: > On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 21:11:17 -0400 > Mike Frysinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> why does it need to be part of releng ? > > releng and seeds will be doing similar tasks, releasing stage tarballs. Might I ask why it needs to be anywhere specific until it's actually had more than a few days to work itself out? Dan -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: New project: Gentoo Seeds
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 > Being a top level project, you are in essence saying that we want to do > this on our own without the help of a group that has been doing a less > focused version of what you are aiming to provide. It goes against the > entire point of the cooperation we strive for and infuriates me not only > as a developer but as a user. Surely if they were saying that they want to do this on their own without the help of a group that has been doing a less focused version of what they are aiming to provide they wouldn't have either set up a Gentoo project or posted on gentoo-dev in the apparently vain hope of the help of a group that has been doing a less focused version of what they are aiming to provide but would now be on Sourceforge or somesuch setting this project up entirely separately? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFEjDwlFI7BNKVCIkRApbuAJ9Yr8QjPD1oh2N5r1sl17yj4phvwQCfX6Z3 eE0eqwsR6qgz1l1KsxEpxsE= =lpMG -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New project: Gentoo Seeds
Hi All, It's always interesting to be part of a project that seems to be in-focus considering the reply's, especially if it's your first within a OSS-group. It's a long reply, but please bear with me (is that correct english ?) Stuart Herbert wrote: On 9/20/06, Andrew Gaffney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Well, now it's gotten to the point where people are being sneaky and underhanded about this whole thing. Stuart (I believe) said that they had talked to members of releng about this, but the truth seems to be that Stuart talked with rocket and Xen support in stages and some random user associated with this project talked to plasmaroo about using catalyst for stage4 builds. Could you be a little more polite about our users _please_? There was a day when I was just "some random user", just as there was for you and everyone else who is, or has been, a Gentoo dev. I'm the random user that's being discussed here, I appreciate the effort (thanx stuart) but I can use a mail client. It's an interesting mail-thread so far. 1. I'm a user not a dev. You folks have a history of working together, I do not. Part of this thread seems to be rooted in that experience. I know very well that that is hard to put aside, but can you try ? 2. I like gentoo a lot, I've been using it since somewhere 2003 and have seen it grow. I looked at my mail-archive before sending this mail and I have been lurking in -dev to keep abreast of new stuff going on since may-2003. I've been using gentoo about a half year before that. 3. Gentoo is my job, building seeds as proposed in this project is my job. I run a 220+ serverpark which all run gentoo. I'm very proud of that and I seriously feel this is largely credit to the excellent work most of YOU have done to make this the most configurable and most "closely following $UPSTREAM" distribution there is ATM. It's not really easy to run such a serverpark on gentoo, hell it's not easy to run such a serverpark on any linux distribution. 4. Building seeds/stage4's is a large concern for me. With the moving portage tree as-it-is and the nature of a source build distribution, it's the only way to get a repeatable install process. You cannot install and manage 220 servers with the installation guide. It's just not possible regardless of how good a resource it is. We want it repeatable and we want it with as less human intervention as we can get it. 5. It's slightly shameful to run such a large serverpark on OSS without contributing back to the community. Part of this is rooted into the fact that up to a 180+ servers I was the only sysadmin for the entire set. Recently with new hires my work-hours have slacked and I have some time. This is(will be) the project I picked to contribute something back. I have been wanting to do that for some time. Give something back. OSS thrives on people giving stuff back because they like what they got. I would like and hope for gentoo to thrive. I very much like what I've got and regardless of this flame-fest I will continue using gentoo as our server-OS because it suits our business. I do try to encourage all my employees and interns to file bugs, contribute and get involved. However that is a voluntary choice. You cannot force people into a OSS project. You can only encourage them to do so, and show them that it's fun. 6. Frankly the response to the project-announcement is a big disappointment. No again it is a BIG DISAPPOINTMENT. For most of the people opposing here: Read your own dev-manual I've quoted it before to Chris (sorry mr white) and I will not do it again. You all agreed on those policies (by proxy). If you don't like your own policies you know the way. GLEP or approach council. period. 7. Please note that I'm not invalidating any concerns. They may be very real. I've followed the sunrise-flamefest closely and valid points were made in that discussion. They are in this one as well. I just want to convey the disappointment of butting in the time to read most of you Fine Manuals and be flamed to a crisp by following them. This is your public statement on how projects should behave. Work with a gentoo developer, get a project-page up and keep it up-to-date, be courteous to devs and users alike. that's it. Don't like it, apply for a change in policy. Do NOT revert to calling people idiots and/or putting down their work/plans/idea's. You have defined ways of changing policy, neither of above behavior is part of it. Sorry, but grow up. 8. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I like the work of -releng. I've been using their release-snapshots as base for my own stage4/seeds for at least 2 years. I think they produce quality work and I would be very proud to work with -releng to make the seeds-project a success. I am aware of how understaffed you are and I've refrained from asking questions before because I knew most of -releng had to be busy. The fact that I don't use -releng pr
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New project: Gentoo Seeds
Stuart Herbert wrote: On 9/20/06, Andrew Gaffney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Well, now it's gotten to the point where people are being sneaky and underhanded about this whole thing. Stuart (I believe) said that they had talked to members of releng about this, but the truth seems to be that Stuart talked with rocket and Xen support in stages and some random user associated with this project talked to plasmaroo about using catalyst for stage4 builds. Could you be a little more polite about our users _please_? There was a day when I was just "some random user", just as there was for you and everyone else who is, or has been, a Gentoo dev. By "some random user", I meant that plasmaroo had absolutely no idea that he was associated with this Gentoo project that you announced this morning. It was not an insult against our users. Here's one thing I don't get. We have a project (Gentoo Seeds), which is attracting interest and volunteers both from inside the Gentoo dev ranks and (especially) outside. Granted, it's not a lot of people, but interest is always welcome. Assuming we go on, and are successful in establishing a sustainable project, that translates into extra folks working on releases (and fresh eyes to boot). It might only be one or two people, but that's still one or two people more than what we had midnight last Sunday. Given all the complaints from releng in general (and Chris in particular) about there not being _enough_ folks working on releases, isn't this a _great_ opportunity for releng to recruit some additional, motivated folks to help solve that problem? Can't you see that? The help Releng needs is with *testing*. We've got building covered just fine. How much of a dent in this opportunity do you think this afternoon's outpouring has made? How many folks, reading what you've said (and what you've ignored), will still feel motivated to consider maybe moving on to releng in the future? Could you have a think about that, and re-consider the unnecessary hostility and unjustified accusations that you're filling this thread with? Unjustified accusations? Can you point out one "unjustified accusation" I've made? -- Andrew Gaffneyhttp://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/ Gentoo Linux Developer Installer Project -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New project: Gentoo Seeds
On 9/20/06, Andrew Gaffney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Well, now it's gotten to the point where people are being sneaky and underhanded about this whole thing. Stuart (I believe) said that they had talked to members of releng about this, but the truth seems to be that Stuart talked with rocket and Xen support in stages and some random user associated with this project talked to plasmaroo about using catalyst for stage4 builds. Could you be a little more polite about our users _please_? There was a day when I was just "some random user", just as there was for you and everyone else who is, or has been, a Gentoo dev. Here's one thing I don't get. We have a project (Gentoo Seeds), which is attracting interest and volunteers both from inside the Gentoo dev ranks and (especially) outside. Granted, it's not a lot of people, but interest is always welcome. Assuming we go on, and are successful in establishing a sustainable project, that translates into extra folks working on releases (and fresh eyes to boot). It might only be one or two people, but that's still one or two people more than what we had midnight last Sunday. Given all the complaints from releng in general (and Chris in particular) about there not being _enough_ folks working on releases, isn't this a _great_ opportunity for releng to recruit some additional, motivated folks to help solve that problem? Can't you see that? How much of a dent in this opportunity do you think this afternoon's outpouring has made? How many folks, reading what you've said (and what you've ignored), will still feel motivated to consider maybe moving on to releng in the future? Could you have a think about that, and re-consider the unnecessary hostility and unjustified accusations that you're filling this thread with? Many thanks, Stu -- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New project: Gentoo Seeds
On Wednesday 20 September 2006 16:01, Andrew Gaffney wrote: > Well, now it's gotten to the point where people are being sneaky and > underhanded about this whole thing. jesus give over and stop nit picking when they're ready to actually make a release and they dont go through releng, feel free to get bitchy; until then, let them develop -mike pgpnHbKDSJzeb.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New project: Gentoo Seeds
Christian 'Opfer' Faulhammer wrote: Tach Andrew, 0x2B859DE3 (PGP-PK-ID) Andrew Gaffney schrieb: As somebody's already mentioned, the embedded project releases GNAP and has a releng liaison. There's no reason the seeds project couldn't also have a releng liaison, which seems to resolve the main dispute here. That's not the issue. The issue is that there should *already* be a releng liason, but nobody from releng seems to know anything about this project. So now releng does know and maybe people agree that both projects should work together. Maybe everyone should cool down a little, and start working. Well, now it's gotten to the point where people are being sneaky and underhanded about this whole thing. Stuart (I believe) said that they had talked to members of releng about this, but the truth seems to be that Stuart talked with rocket and Xen support in stages and some random user associated with this project talked to plasmaroo about using catalyst for stage4 builds. Nobody who talked to anyone in releng mentioned anything about this "seeds" project. In this case, "we've talked to releng about this" really means "we've asked various people related to releng random questions that sort of have to do with our project but didn't tell them why we were asking". -- Andrew Gaffneyhttp://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/ Gentoo Linux Developer Installer Project -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: New project: Gentoo Seeds
Tach Andrew, 0x2B859DE3 (PGP-PK-ID) Andrew Gaffney schrieb: >> As somebody's already mentioned, the embedded project releases GNAP and >> has a releng liaison. There's no reason the seeds project couldn't also >> have a releng liaison, which seems to resolve the main dispute here. > That's not the issue. The issue is that there should *already* be a > releng liason, but nobody from releng seems to know anything about this > project. So now releng does know and maybe people agree that both projects should work together. Maybe everyone should cool down a little, and start working. V-Li -- Fingerprint: 68C5 D381 B69A A777 6A91 E999 350A AD7C 2B85 9DE3 http://www.gnupg.org/ -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
