Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2007/08
On Sat, 2007-07-21 at 13:31 +0100, Roy Bamford wrote: That's the beginnings of a good election manifesto. All the candidates need to explain, if they are elected :- 1. What they will do 2. Why they will do it 3. How they will do it 4. Timescales for their plans. 5. Experience doing similar things in other arenas 6. Why they think they're qualified for the position 7. How they plan on adding the Council work into their normal Gentoo work load 8. How much time they have to dedicate to Council tasks These last two are probably some of the most important to me, since I have seen first-hand how much time the Council can take. Here's a glimpse, for the rest of you... When the Council was working on the CoC, I spent in excess of 50 hours in one week working solely on the CoC. This means I put my actual paying job on the back burner for the Council because I pretty much had to do so. The Council is *not* only a once a month job. You're a Council member every hour of every day for a year. This information will allow the electorate to choose a team with similar aims, so we get a cohesive council, not a collection of individuals trying to take Gentoo in different directions. I know that I will likely be choosing people of a like mind to myself. I'll also probably be picking people the *least* likely to be pushing for a ton of changes, simply because I also don't think we need 7 people pushing in 7 directions only trying to get *their* ideas enacted. Any candidate unwilling to prepare such a manifesto should withdraw now as they clearly don't have the time or interest to take an active seat on the council. Agreed. Like it or not, the council is more of a social/political body than a development body. This is really true. While the Council is the main technical body, we tend to make technical decisions very quickly and without controversy. Social/political issues are almost always very long-running and tend to take up more of our time. If I were to guess, I would say that 90% of what we do is technical, but the 10% that is non-technical takes up 90% of our time. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2007/08
On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 21:47:42 +0200 Markus Ullmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [..snip..] welp [..snip..] On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 23:29:15 +0200 Raúl Porcel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [..snip..] - -welp [..snip..] On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 16:06:34 +0100 George Prowse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [..snip..] welp [..snip..] On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:27:18 -0400 Doug Goldstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All, You've all stated that you accept or don't accept (but this is targeted at the acceptors, sorry non-acceptors) but the people that accept haven't really given much reason as to why they would be a good candidate. [..snip..] -- Doug Goldstein Yes, I will accept. My main plans over the next few years would be to improve communications (and (more importantly?) openness), not just between developers, but also between herds, users, the Council, the Trustees, upstream and so on. I'd particularly want to ensure that there is better communication between us (Gentoo) and projects such as Sabayon Linux and Ainkaboot, as I believe that we can all make use of each other's skills and ideas to provide better distribution(s). I'd encourage innovative ideas and projects, such as the inclusion of, for example, XGL/Compiz/Beryl/Compiz-Fusion or whatever it's called these days. I'd also encourage the introduction of targets, as discussed by antarus on the -core ML. And all that kinda stuff. Now, I'm sure that a number of you would prefer everything to be closed, kept private within a number of individuals, but if that *is* the case, why on Earth are you involved with an *Open* Source project, such as Gentoo? Wouldn't you be better off using the likes of Adobe's products and Microsoft's products? Yes, I am quite young. Yes, I could be considered relatively new to the project. Yes, I might make mistakes, but I also *learn* from mistakes, which some people seem to find hard. Being young/relatively new to the project will allow me to potentially bring a fresh view on things, that some of you old fuddy-duddies may or may not have thought of before. And isn't that what Gentoo is about? New ideas, innovation, fresh views, etc, etc. Anyway. Meh. I'm starting to waffle on. And I'm moving house at the beginning of August, I'm also going to France sometime in August. Just some advanced warnings that I may not be around so much during the voting period. Bai! signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2007/08
On 2007.07.21 10:47, Peter Weller wrote: [snip] Yes, I will accept. My main plans over the next few years would be to improve communications (and (more importantly?) openness), not just between developers, but also between herds, users, the Council, the Trustees, upstream and so on. I'd particularly want to ensure that there is better communication between us (Gentoo) and projects such as Sabayon Linux and Ainkaboot, as I believe that we can all make use of each other's skills and ideas to provide better distribution(s). I'd encourage innovative ideas and projects, such as the inclusion of, for example, XGL/Compiz/Beryl/Compiz-Fusion or whatever it's called these days. I'd also encourage the introduction of targets, as discussed by antarus on the -core ML. And all that kinda stuff. Now, I'm sure that a number of you would prefer everything to be closed, kept private within a number of individuals, but if that *is* the case, why on Earth are you involved with an *Open* Source project, such as Gentoo? Wouldn't you be better off using the likes of Adobe's products and Microsoft's products? Yes, I am quite young. Yes, I could be considered relatively new to the project. Yes, I might make mistakes, but I also *learn* from mistakes, which some people seem to find hard. Being young/relatively new to the project will allow me to potentially bring a fresh view on things, that some of you old fuddy-duddies may or may not have thought of before. And isn't that what Gentoo is about? New ideas, innovation, fresh views, etc, etc. Anyway. Meh. I'm starting to waffle on. And I'm moving house at the beginning of August, I'm also going to France sometime in August. Just some advanced warnings that I may not be around so much during the voting period. Bai! Peter, That's the beginnings of a good election manifesto. All the candidates need to explain, if they are elected :- 1. What they will do 2. Why they will do it 3. How they will do it 4. Timescales for their plans. This information will allow the electorate to choose a team with similar aims, so we get a cohesive council, not a collection of individuals trying to take Gentoo in different directions. Any candidate unwilling to prepare such a manifesto should withdraw now as they clearly don't have the time or interest to take an active seat on the council. Like it or not, the council is more of a social/political body than a development body. Regards, Roy Bamford, (NeddySeagoon) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
RE: [gentoo-dev] Re: Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2007/08
Roy Bamford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2007.07.21 10:47, Peter Weller wrote: My main plans over the next few years would be to improve communications (and (more importantly?) openness), not just between developers, but also between herds, users, the Council, the Trustees, upstream and so on. I'd particularly want to ensure that there is better communication between us (Gentoo) and projects such as Sabayon Linux and Ainkaboot, as I believe that we can all make use of each other's skills and ideas to provide better distribution(s). I'd encourage innovative ideas and projects, such as the inclusion of, for example, XGL/Compiz/Beryl/Compiz-Fusion or whatever it's called these days. I'd also encourage the introduction of targets, as discussed by antarus on the -core ML. And all that kinda stuff. That's the beginnings of a good election manifesto. All the candidates need to explain, if they are elected :- 1. What they will do 2. Why they will do it 3. How they will do it 4. Timescales for their plans. This information will allow the electorate to choose a team with similar aims, so we get a cohesive council, not a collection of individuals trying to take Gentoo in different directions. I like this line of thinking, it really helps the rest of us in our voting decisions when we know what your plans are. I also agree with Neddy when he says it would be best if we could elect a council with similar ideas instead of each person potentially having completely different ideas. That said, I don't think the questions Neddy stated above should wait to be answered until someone is elected, we'd really need to know that up front to make an informed decision. Welp it appears to me that you had four plans in your email, and by the way thank you for being first to state them. Could you go back over them and respond to the how you would plan on doing it and under what time frame? (Innovative ideas are great, but don't mean much if they cant be executed.) Kind regards, Christina Fullam Gentoo Developer Relations Lead | GWN Author -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2007/08
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 10:47:13 +0100 Peter Weller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd particularly want to ensure that there is better communication between us (Gentoo) and projects such as Sabayon Linux and Ainkaboot, as I believe that we can all make use of each other's skills and ideas to provide better distribution(s). We were just talking about this last night in #gentoo-dev, so I'm glad to see you share the feeling. I blogged about making Gentoo a better tool yesterday, and a big part of that is communicating with the people who are doing so. Thanks, Donnie signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2007/08
Ryan Hill wrote: Torsten Veller wrote: | for the quick low down: | - nominations are from July 1 through July 31 | - anyone can nominate | - only Gentoo devs may be nominated | | so get with the nominating people ! I noticed Kumba isn't nominated, so I'll throw him into the ring. I'll decline for this year; I'm content to hide over in MIPS land and toss out random ideas from behind the safe shadows of an Origin 2000 cluster... Thanks for the nomination, though! --Kumba -- Gentoo/MIPS Team Lead Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere. --Elrond -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2007/08
Kumba wrote: Ryan Hill wrote: Torsten Veller wrote: | for the quick low down: | - nominations are from July 1 through July 31 | - anyone can nominate | - only Gentoo devs may be nominated | | so get with the nominating people ! I noticed Kumba isn't nominated, so I'll throw him into the ring. I'll decline for this year; I'm content to hide over in MIPS land and toss out random ideas from behind the safe shadows of an Origin 2000 cluster... Thanks for the nomination, though! --Kumba Admit it, you just wii all the time. :-) -- Luis F. Araujo araujo at gentoo.org Gentoo Linux -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2007/08
On Monday 02 July 2007 21:10, Torsten Veller wrote: Let me nominate the current council members: Sune Kloppenborg Jeppesen jaervosz YES. When I start on my new job I'll be a lot more online. I'll write some more before election time. But already now I can say that I will work for keeping Gentoo as open as possible, I don't think permanent moderation or any form of censorship will really do us any good. -- Sune Kloppenborg Jeppesen Gentoo Linux Security Team -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2007/08
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Tiziano Müller wrote: Torsten Veller schrieb: Let me please point out that no infrastructure team member is on the list right now. As infra is often involved in implementing council decisions we should take care that the information flows. IMHO the easiest way to achieve this is electing an infra member to the council. And if someone has to be in a council/whatsoever to get the relevant information, something else is broken. And tweaking the election procedure to reach that someone from a special project is elected is somehow questionable, don't you think? Well, I don't think there is anything wrong with somebody from infra being on the council, but I also agree that it shouldn't be essential. I see the council as being like a board of directors for a company - they don't need to make day-to-day decisions but they do need to have ultimate oversight. The skillset needed to run a board is different from the skillset needed to run day-to-day operations. I see the main skills needed by a council member as: 1. Good people skills! 2. Ability to listen to all sides of an issue and make informed decisions. 3. Ability to be an advocate for the project. 4. Energy and spirit - ability to motivate. 5. Ability to be firm when needed - balanced with ability to stay polite while being firm. 6. Some technical vision for the project. 7. Ability to evaluate proposed solutions to technical problems. Honestly, I'm actually wondering if it is a mistake to limit the council nominations to devs only. Having the devs do the voting is a good move I think - they have to live with the decisions and alienating the devs isn't going to be good for the users and other stakeholders. However, if the devs want to elect a non-dev I think that they should be able to do so. Organizations frequently have boards that are composed of non-daily-contributors. I think that Gentoo is making a mistake in seeing the council as a place where ultimately highly-technical decisions get made. I think that is one role of the council, but if you look at Gentoo that isn't what is really causing the problems. The only really technical flamefest I tend to see on -dev is the periodic what-is-the-blessed-package-manager war - and that really isn't so much a technical battle as much as one of principle - should gentoo have more than one? (AND PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THIS OPENING UP THAT BATTLE AGAIN!!!) Most other technical debates on -dev tend to be a little more dispassionate. My feeling is that the council should be setting general direction and providing accountability on technical issues, but individual herd leads should be the ones taking the initiative. Is there a QA issue? The QA herd lead should come up with a potential solution, run it past the council with some advance debate, and then everybody works together to implement it. The council doesn't need to solve every problem - they just need to listen to people who might have the answer - with a large group like Gentoo they probably already exist. And the council shouldn't be afraid to hire others to do the day-to-day work (well, maybe hire without pay if necessary... :) ). The proctors were a good example of this (even if maybe it didn't get implemented as intended or it didn't go as well as hoped). While the council does need energy it shouldn't require personally moderating the whole project. In real life boards hire CEOs to do the heavy lifting and just meet once per month to see how it is going. I'm not advocating that for gentoo, but people do need to look at the council differently than they do now. It doesn't have to have the best developers in gentoo - it needs to have the best council-members in Gentoo... -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGmgMFG4/rWKZmVWkRAlGfAJ4vGcSnCYxDXp/y5ILWux1+y6x3WACghOwR 5BQg4vpme3BuUFrz4sQMveA= =iown -END PGP SIGNATURE- smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2007/08
After being bribed with beer from edit_21, welp and a few others I accept my nomination too. Thanks Roy -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2007/08
Markus Ullmann wrote: nominating: others are nominated already ;) d'oh, forgot fellow dertobi123 Thanks, I accept the nomination. Tobias signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2007/08
On Mon, 2007-07-02 at 21:10 +0200, Torsten Veller wrote: Chris Gianelloni wolf31o2 While I thank you for the nomination for next year's Gentoo Council, I have decided that I no longer wish to be associated with the Gentoo Council or any other form of management or leadership within Gentoo. It is simply too stressful being harassed constantly by our developer pool. I sincerely hope that whomever decides to run for Council this year takes into account that of the original elected Council, two have retired (both due to being tired of having the shit roll downhill to them) from Gentoo completely, and three of the remaining aren't running for re-election. Being a Council member is the worst job in Gentoo. Be sure you're ready to be treated like complete shit from your fellow developers all the while having your integrity questioned daily before accepting your nominations. I know that I wouldn't accept a position on the Gentoo Council even if it was a paying job. I've also come to realize that trying to give a single direction to something like Gentoo is an extremely foolish endeavor. The better solution is smaller projects and tasks that have defined goals and can actually be accomplished. Any kind of general direction for the entire distribution would either mean leaving out groups, or moving in a direction that conflicts with the goals of our current groups. Don't get me wrong, the Council is definitely needed. I just think their focus should be on attainable and measurable goals, not lofty dreamy-eyed goals with no real way to measure whether we're moving in the right direction. Rather than go into more and more what I think are major deficiencies in what the Council can and can not do due to the ever-changing developer pool, I think I'll just shut up now. If anyone wants to discuss with me any of this stuff, feel free to contact me. Say YES or NO. How about a resounding NO, instead? -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2007/08
Thorsten Veller wrote: Let me nominate the current council members: Mike Doty kingtaco Danny van Dyk kugelfang Roy Marplesuberlord Sune Kloppenborg Jeppesen jaervosz Robin H. Johnson robbat2 Mike Frysinger vapier Chris Gianelloni wolf31o2 Say YES or NO. Thanks for the nomination, but I'm not interested in another year on the council. --taco -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2007/08
On Mon, Jul 02, 2007 at 09:10:03PM +0200, Torsten Veller wrote: Robin H. Johnson robbat2 No, unfortunately I don't have time to run again. My job has required ever-increasing amounts of my time. Even my commit stats show just how much I'm being pressured lately. Of the tree signing stuff that I originally ran to work on, here's the CVS space I was working on it. http://sources.gentoo.org/viewcvs.py/gentoo/users/robbat2/tree-signing-gleps/ A short status report on it: 00 - summary, and review of past attempts - needs techreview + copyedit, but completed. 04 - Manifest2 hashes - I believe that the Portage codebase has moved on, more might work. 01 - Distribution process security - needs content polishing and review. 02 - Developer security - lots of work here, this part will probably never happen. Probably should just drop. 03 - GnuPG Policies - nothing done yet, but this is mainly a summary of some of the list posts from last year. -- Robin Hugh Johnson Gentoo Linux Developer Council Member E-Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG FP : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85 pgpBB58zykDzN.pgp Description: PGP signature
