Re: [gentoo-dev] DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
Jesús Guerrero wrote: Most Gentoo users will have no problem to use overlays as they need them. If we had more developers we could as maintain more packages, as simple as that. I actually tend to agree with this position, however to use overlays as a valid solution for end-users we need to do more to support them. Right now it is at least a little painful to get set up with an overlay. There also isn't really any official place to vet overlays, and there isn't any official source for overlays that aren't maintained by gentoo. Sure, overlays.g.o has tons of overlays - but which ones are mostly-stable, and which ones are intended to break systems? What is the QA policy for each overlay? If I'm an end-user not interested in breaking my system, what overlays are safe for me to use? If we really want overlays to be an outlet to allow more non-devs to contribute, then there needs to be some way to standardize them. Maybe a simple ratings system - an overlay needs to comply with one set of rules just to get listed on o.g.o. If you want to be marked as stable, then you obey some additional rules. And so on... Then we can have overlays of various types for various purposes, and users can pick which ones they want to follow. We could also have things like overlay groups - like stable or desktop or KDE / etc. Maybe a fancy GUI to allow users to configure all of this. Of course, for this to work somebody needs to develop it. If somebody were willing to do the work I doubt anybody would get in their way. It isn't like any of this would interfere with anybody who just wanted to make their own overlay without rules and not have it listed on some official site.
Re: [gentoo-dev] DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
On Sun, 13 Sep 2009 06:47:27 -0400, Richard Freeman ri...@gentoo.org wrote: Jesús Guerrero wrote: Most Gentoo users will have no problem to use overlays as they need them. If we had more developers we could as maintain more packages, as simple as that. I actually tend to agree with this position, It's not something to agree or disagree. There aren't developers to maintain all the software under the sun, period. however to use overlays as a valid solution for end-users we need to do more to support them. Yeah, devs for that as well. Right now it is at least a little painful to get set up with an overlay. No, it's a matter of using layman -a whatever There also isn't really any official place to vet overlays, and there isn't any official source for overlays that aren't maintained by gentoo. Sure, overlays.g.o has tons of overlays - but which ones are mostly-stable, and which ones are intended to break systems? What is the QA policy for each overlay? If I'm an end-user not interested in breaking my system, what overlays are safe for me to use? There's no policy. Just like unofficial repos for any other distro. We can't control that. It's outside Gentoo. While I agree that having more packages and being more up to date is a good thing, I can never agree that we should sacrifice Gentoo for that. You want stability for what I see on your answer, well, that's what you have. I don't think we can do any more with the number of developers we have right now unless we start dumping blindingly and without any check every ebuild that we get across. -- Jesús Guerrero
Re: [gentoo-dev] DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
Jesús Guerrero wrote: Yeah, devs for that as well. Yup - I think we're actually on the same page. Ultimately quality matters more than quantity and everybody does what they can given the resources we have. Right now it is at least a little painful to get set up with an overlay. No, it's a matter of using layman -a whatever Sure, and that is fine if overlays are intended only as experimental development spaces. However, some (not necessarily including yourself) advocate that it is perfectly fine that the portage tree gets stale since we have all those overlays. That certainly is a possible approach to take, but to go that route overlays need to become more robust. Right now they're really not a replacement for /usr/portage. There's no policy. Just like unofficial repos for any other distro. We can't control that. It's outside Gentoo. Exactly. And, because it is outside of Gentoo - packages in overlays don't count when we consider how up-to-date Gentoo is. If we want to say that package foo isn't stale because there are recent versions in some overlay, then Gentoo needs to take responsibility for the overlays. That might be as simple as being a gatekeeper - auditing overlays and booting ones that drift out of control. I don't think we can do any more with the number of developers we have right now unless we start dumping blindingly and without any check every ebuild that we get across. Absolutely. The whole logic behind going to an overlay-based approach is that it allows developers to leverage external help more effectively - a developer can essentially delegate a whole mini portage-tree to some other entity to manage, simply providing oversight and QA. In theory you could even have official overlays - which would allow better delineation of responsibilities (you don't need to grant people commit access to everything - just their project's overlay). Ultimately, as you argue, it doesn't make a difference if nobody is willing to step up and actually maintain ebuilds. Personally, I like the overlay idea, but right now it just isn't necessary. In theory proxy maintainers work almost as well, and we're not really making heavy use of this model right now. If we had hundreds of users submitting high-quality ebuilds in bugzilla and simply couldn't find enough devs to commit them all, then a more overlay-based approach would help reduce the bottleneck of having a centralized group of committers. Right now we probably have far more devs than proxy-devs, so the need to delegate the tree further really isn't there.
Re: [gentoo-dev] DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
Jesús Guerrero wrote: On Sun, 13 Sep 2009 06:47:27 -0400, Richard Freeman ri...@gentoo.org Right now it is at least a little painful to get set up with an overlay. No, it's a matter of using layman -a whatever I think Richard was including the manual setup required to use layman and the procedure required to add overlays that are not in layman-global.txt. I agree, that both are no fun. I wrote a tool layman-add a while back to ease up the latter, because I felt it sucks so badly. Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
Richard Freeman wrote: Personally, I like the overlay idea, but right now it just isn't necessary. In theory proxy maintainers work almost as well, and we're not really making heavy use of this model right now. I disagree about this. One of the reasons my overlay is fun to me is because I am _not_ proxied. Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Sebastian Pipping wrote: Hello there! Among other information the Gentoo page at DistroWatch [1] displays a table on about 200 selected packages [2] and how up to date Gentoo is per package. I assume that DistroWatch is still one of the first places people go to get a feeling for a Distro they heard about, besides Wikpedia and ${distro}.org. The freshness of these 200 packages have influence on how people perceive Gentoo on DistroWatch. While the tree as a whole is what we should keep as up to date as possible keeping these 200 packages (list further down) up to date can therefore be of particular importance. From a quick look at the table these packages seem to need extra care in Gentoo: cups (1.4.0) 1.3.11 -- latest in Gentoo unstable/testing koffice (2.0.2) 1.6.3 There has been koffice-meta-2.0.2 for a while. mysql (5.1.38) 5.0.84 perl (5.10.1)5.8.8 php (5.3.0) 5.2.10 samba (3.4.1)3.3.7 Marijn - -- If you cannot read my mind, then listen to what I say. Marijn Schouten (hkBst), Gentoo Lisp project, Gentoo ML http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/lisp/, #gentoo-{lisp,ml} on FreeNode -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkqrhLwACgkQp/VmCx0OL2xRjQCfUPpebxYVEaUC2aMAgFGOm8ov Y/oAoLWiRr4kXCsS/JCFb6R5mleJKCqi =DENW -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-dev] DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
Aaron Bauman wrote: Sebastian, I definitely admire your point and know that through your tracking and Google SoC project you have good visibility on this I do however have to disagree. As much as I enjoy the open source community and admire the products they put out I do believe Gentoo has the right approach to packaging. My standpoint is that Gentoo always ensures stability in the fact that we require packages to be tested prior to release in the main portage tree and secondly the Gentoo developers always ensure security as best as they can. These I believe are what keep the portage tree somewhat behind the latest and greatest and as always there are overlays and options that allow users to pull these packages down if they want. I believe the great thing about Gentoo is the choice of whether to be cutting edge or not. If I have missed anything please let me know. I don't think we should trade away quality. You said you disagree with me but with that said I don't see at which point. Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
Marijn Schouten (hkBst) wrote: koffice (2.0.2) 1.6.3 There has been koffice-meta-2.0.2 for a while. Good catch, thank you! Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
Sebastian, I definitely admire your point and know that through your tracking and Google SoC project you have good visibility on this I do however have to disagree. As much as I enjoy the open source community and admire the products they put out I do believe Gentoo has the right approach to packaging. My standpoint is that Gentoo always ensures stability in the fact that we require packages to be tested prior to release in the main portage tree and secondly the Gentoo developers always ensure security as best as they can. These I believe are what keep the portage tree somewhat behind the latest and greatest and as always there are overlays and options that allow users to pull these packages down if they want. I believe the great thing about Gentoo is the choice of whether to be cutting edge or not. If I have missed anything please let me know. On Friday 11 September 2009 19:02:44 Sebastian Pipping wrote: Hello there! Among other information the Gentoo page at DistroWatch [1] displays a table on about 200 selected packages [2] and how up to date Gentoo is per package. I assume that DistroWatch is still one of the first places people go to get a feeling for a Distro they heard about, besides Wikpedia and ${distro}.org. The freshness of these 200 packages have influence on how people perceive Gentoo on DistroWatch. While the tree as a whole is what we should keep as up to date as possible keeping these 200 packages (list further down) up to date can therefore be of particular importance. From a quick look at the table these packages seem to need extra care in Gentoo: cups (1.4.0) 1.3.11 -- latest in Gentoo unstable/testing koffice (2.0.2) 1.6.3 mysql (5.1.38) 5.0.84 perl (5.10.1)5.8.8 php (5.3.0) 5.2.10 samba (3.4.1)3.3.7 Packages not found in Gentoo that DistroWatch monitors across discros are: apt synaptic .. Debian stuff, that Gentoo does not have packaged apache mod_ssl .. Apache 1.x seems gone from Gentoo (I suppose security) openjdk .. Not packaged in Gentoo, no idea why checkinstall Miro .. Not in official tree (yet?), available through an Overlay xmms .. Removed for security reasons, available through an Overlay Maybe we should move Miro to the main tree? Since today DistroWatch's sources on tree freshness are [3] and [4] as they provide more accurate data than previously used sources do. What is the process to migrate the generating script over to Gentoo infrastructure? See you, Sebastian [1] http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=gentoo [2] http://distrowatch.com/packages.php [3] http://www.hartwork.org/public/distrowatch_gentoo_x86_latest_stable.txt [4] http://www.hartwork.org/public/distrowatch_gentoo_x86_latest_unstable.txt List of all Gentoo packages currently monitored === abiword app-office/abiword AfterStep x11-wm/afterstep alpine mail-client/alpine alsa-lib media-libs/alsa-lib amarok media-sound/amarok apache-tomcat www-servers/tomcat ati-driver x11-drivers/ati-drivers audacity media-sound/audacity autoconf sys-devel/autoconf automake sys-devel/automake avidemux media-video/avidemux banshee media-sound/banshee bash app-shells/bash bind net-dns/bind binutils sys-devel/binutils bison sys-devel/bison blender media-gfx/blender bluefish app-editors/bluefish bzip2 app-arch/bzip2 cdrkit app-cdr/cdrkit cinelerra media-video/cinelerra compiz x11-wm/compiz coreutils sys-apps/coreutils cups net-print/cups curl net-misc/curl cvs dev-util/cvs db sys-libs/db DeviceKit sys-apps/devicekit dhcp net-misc/dhcp diffutils sys-apps/diffutils digikam media-gfx/digikam dillo www-client/dillo dosbox games-emulation/dosbox dovecot net-mail/dovecot doxygen app-doc/doxygen e2fsprogs sys-fs/e2fsprogs eclipse dev-util/eclipse-sdk emacs app-editors/emacs enlightenment x11-wm/enlightenment epiphany www-client/epiphany evolution mail-client/evolution exim mail-mta/exim fetchmail net-mail/fetchmail ffmpeg media-video/ffmpeg file sys-apps/file findutils sys-apps/findutils firebird dev-db/firebird firefox www-client/mozilla-firefox flex sys-devel/flex fluxbox x11-wm/fluxbox freetype media-libs/freetype f-spot media-gfx/f-spot gawk sys-apps/gawk gcc sys-devel/gcc gettext sys-devel/gettext gftp net-ftp/gftp ghostscript app-text/ghostscript-gpl gimp media-gfx/gimp git dev-util/git glade dev-util/glade glibc sys-libs/glibc gnucash app-office/gnucash gnumeric app-office/gnumeric gnupg app-crypt/gnupg gparted sys-block/gparted grep sys-apps/grep groff sys-apps/groff grub sys-boot/grub gstreamer media-libs/gstreamer gtk+ x11-libs/gtk+ gzip app-arch/gzip hal sys-apps/hal httpd www-servers/apache icewm x11-wm/icewm ImageMagick media-gfx/imagemagick inkscape media-gfx/inkscape iptables