Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
On 2010.04.09 07:34, Duncan wrote: Patrick Nagel posted on Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:42:40 +0800 as excerpted: [snip] Likewise, Gentoo's uncomfortable officially linking to something they don't control in any way, shape, or form (except to the extent that we could arguably pull his domain name for trademark reasons, if things got ugly enough, tho that'd be incredibly bad for EVERYONE, so nobody wants to go there!). [snip] -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master. Richard Stallman Last time I looked, his about page complies with our trade mark requirements. -- Regards, Roy Bamford (Neddyseagoon) a member of gentoo-ops forum-mods trustees pgp3GJ2VlskqB.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
On 12 April 2010 12:28, Roy Bamford neddyseag...@gentoo.org wrote: Last time I looked, his about page complies with our trade mark requirements. But ONLY his about page. Our name and logo guidelines state this needs to happen on each page: the website clearly states, on each page, that the project is no official Gentoo project by labelling itself as a news site, fan site, unofficial site or community site See http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/name-logo.xml Instead it labels itself as the Gentoo Wiki or the Gentoo Linux Wiki, suggesting to somebody who is unaware of the situation that it is an official project. -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Qt project lead developer Gentoo Wiki project lead
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
On 12/04/2010 12:32, Ben de Groot wrote: On 12 April 2010 12:28, Roy Bamfordneddyseag...@gentoo.org wrote: Last time I looked, his about page complies with our trade mark requirements. But ONLY his about page. Our name and logo guidelines state this needs to happen on each page: the website clearly states, on each page, that the project is no official Gentoo project by labelling itself as a news site, fan site, unofficial site or community site See http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/name-logo.xml Instead it labels itself as the Gentoo Wiki or the Gentoo Linux Wiki, suggesting to somebody who is unaware of the situation that it is an official project. If you are arguing that the name is ambiguous then I think you are wrong. Gentoo knows about the unofficial wiki and knows it's mission is to help Gentoo and not to hinder it. Gentoo hardly makes a habit of Apple-like litigation when trying to protect it's logo.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
On 12 April 2010 18:43, George Prowse george.pro...@gmail.com wrote: [...] If you are arguing that the name is ambiguous then I think you are wrong. Gentoo knows about the unofficial wiki and knows it's mission is to help Gentoo and not to hinder it. Gentoo hardly makes a habit of Apple-like litigation when trying to protect it's logo. I think the argument is that the wiki is not always accurate, and if perceived as the official documentation, can put is in bad light. -- Arun Raghavan http://arunraghavan.net/ (Ford_Prefect | Gentoo) (arunsr | GNOME)
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
On 12/04/2010 14:17, Arun Raghavan wrote: On 12 April 2010 18:43, George Prowsegeorge.pro...@gmail.com wrote: [...] If you are arguing that the name is ambiguous then I think you are wrong. Gentoo knows about the unofficial wiki and knows it's mission is to help Gentoo and not to hinder it. Gentoo hardly makes a habit of Apple-like litigation when trying to protect it's logo. I think the argument is that the wiki is not always accurate, and if perceived as the official documentation, can put is in bad light. There is *always* a chance of that, official or otherwise
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
On 12 April 2010 18:49, George Prowse george.pro...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/04/2010 14:17, Arun Raghavan wrote: On 12 April 2010 18:43, George Prowsegeorge.pro...@gmail.com wrote: [...] If you are arguing that the name is ambiguous then I think you are wrong. Gentoo knows about the unofficial wiki and knows it's mission is to help Gentoo and not to hinder it. Gentoo hardly makes a habit of Apple-like litigation when trying to protect it's logo. I think the argument is that the wiki is not always accurate, and if perceived as the official documentation, can put is in bad light. There is *always* a chance of that, official or otherwise Which the Wiki team should really be addressing before making a world-editable wiki. -- Arun Raghavan http://arunraghavan.net/ (Ford_Prefect | Gentoo) (arunsr | GNOME)
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
On 12/04/2010 14:22, Arun Raghavan wrote: On 12 April 2010 18:49, George Prowsegeorge.pro...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/04/2010 14:17, Arun Raghavan wrote: On 12 April 2010 18:43, George Prowsegeorge.pro...@gmail.comwrote: [...] If you are arguing that the name is ambiguous then I think you are wrong. Gentoo knows about the unofficial wiki and knows it's mission is to help Gentoo and not to hinder it. Gentoo hardly makes a habit of Apple-like litigation when trying to protect it's logo. I think the argument is that the wiki is not always accurate, and if perceived as the official documentation, can put is in bad light. There is *always* a chance of that, official or otherwise Which the Wiki team should really be addressing before making a world-editable wiki. A simple warning should suffice: While the Gentoo community takes a large amount of care to keep the wiki's information correct, problems like deprecation of features, misinformed users and vandalism can and will always be a problem with the wiki format. If you see a problem please feel free to fix it, notify a member of the developer team or send an email to w...@gentoo.org Also adding a notice like Gentoo takes no responsibility for when you b0rk your box by setting the wrong CTARGET somewhere would be good. Those two should cover all the bases.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
On 12 April 2010 15:22, Arun Raghavan ford_pref...@gentoo.org wrote: On 12 April 2010 18:49, George Prowse george.pro...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/04/2010 14:17, Arun Raghavan wrote: On 12 April 2010 18:43, George Prowsegeorge.pro...@gmail.com wrote: [...] If you are arguing that the name is ambiguous then I think you are wrong. Gentoo knows about the unofficial wiki and knows it's mission is to help Gentoo and not to hinder it. Gentoo hardly makes a habit of Apple-like litigation when trying to protect it's logo. I think the argument is that the wiki is not always accurate, and if perceived as the official documentation, can put is in bad light. There is *always* a chance of that, official or otherwise Which the Wiki team should really be addressing before making a world-editable wiki. If you're talking about the offical wiki, we are addressing that problem. If you are talking about the unofficial one, I can only agree. Cheers, -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Qt project lead developer Gentoo Wiki project lead
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
Ben de Groot wrote: On 12 April 2010 15:22, Arun Raghavanford_pref...@gentoo.org wrote: On 12 April 2010 18:49, George Prowsegeorge.pro...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/04/2010 14:17, Arun Raghavan wrote: On 12 April 2010 18:43, George Prowsegeorge.pro...@gmail.comwrote: [...] If you are arguing that the name is ambiguous then I think you are wrong. Gentoo knows about the unofficial wiki and knows it's mission is to help Gentoo and not to hinder it. Gentoo hardly makes a habit of Apple-like litigation when trying to protect it's logo. I think the argument is that the wiki is not always accurate, and if perceived as the official documentation, can put is in bad light. There is *always* a chance of that, official or otherwise Which the Wiki team should really be addressing before making a world-editable wiki. If you're talking about the offical wiki, we are addressing that problem. If you are talking about the unofficial one, I can only agree. Cheers, Just to add two cents worth. I rarely, very rarely, go to the unofficial Gentoo wiki. To put it simply, its not supported by the Gentoo organization itself. When it comes to my system, I want people that I know use Gentoo and understand how it works or that the info is from the official Gentoo Docs. I may be able to contribute to the official Gentoo wiki when the need arises but I doubt I would ever do that on the current unofficial wiki. Just my two cents worth for the day. Back to my hole. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
There are things I know about Gentoo Linux and I'm pleased to share my knowledge with others as well as I'm glad to learn from others. I'm not a Gentoo dev and I neither have plan nor wish to be. My feeling is that Gentoo Wiki Project is just but another occasion for debating rules and politics. Reading some messages from some people I feel like I'm not welcome because I'm not a member of a group of selected people. I have a French wiki to maintain, Gentoo-Québec's one, and I also have to help people by answering their questions on Gentoo-Québec forum. I think my real place is there. Regards, Guy Fontaine (aramis_qc) On Fri, 09 Apr 2010 00:38:53 + Sylvain Alain d2_rac...@hotmail.com wrote: Indeed, that's why I don't want to have a wiki for devs only. The Gentoo wiki must be for the community and by the community :P There are many Gentoo experts that don't want to be officially devs. d2_racing To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org From: dirtye...@gentoo.org Subject: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 16:55:36 -0600 On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 21:37:46 + Sylvain Alain d2_rac...@hotmail.com wrote: The official wiki can be use by powerusers who want to write some pretty good doc. A lot of powerusers can write excellent doc on the gentoo forum right now, so they don't need to by Gentoo Dev to right excellent stuff. I don't see your point. They already write great stuff on http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/. I think having two different places to put this kind of stuff might split the contributor base. It'd be nice if we could either merge the two or make the official wiki about developing with Gentoo rather than how to use Gentoo, but in any case I'm just happy to have somewhere to stick things. -- fonts,by design, by neglect gcc-porting, for a fact or just for effect wxwidgets @ gentoo EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662 _ Live connected. Get Hotmail Messenger on your phone. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724462 -- Guy Fontaine guy.fonta...@videotron.qc.ca
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
On Friday 09 of April 2010 13:26:16 Guy Fontaine wrote: There are things I know about Gentoo Linux and I'm pleased to share my knowledge with others as well as I'm glad to learn from others. I'm not a Gentoo dev and I neither have plan nor wish to be. My feeling is that Gentoo Wiki Project is just but another occasion for debating rules and politics. Reading some messages from some people I feel like I'm not welcome because I'm not a member of a group of selected people. I have a French wiki to maintain, Gentoo-Québec's one, and I also have to help people by answering their questions on Gentoo-Québec forum. I think my real place is there. See? This is the problem. Every time comes an initiative to introduce official Gentoo infra hosted Gentoo Wiki (yes, the one that won't loose randomly all its contents) - there's lack of interest of cooperation from already existing unofficial Gentoo-related Wiki admins. And of course it's always Gentoo devs who are to blame for creating duplicated effort instead of normalizing current situation. Btw, you should only care for opinion of Gentoo Wiki project members, which are listed there - http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/wiki/ cheers -- regards MM
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
On 9 April 2010 13:26, Guy Fontaine guy.fonta...@videotron.qc.ca wrote: There are things I know about Gentoo Linux and I'm pleased to share my knowledge with others as well as I'm glad to learn from others. I'm not a Gentoo dev and I neither have plan nor wish to be. My feeling is that Gentoo Wiki Project is just but another occasion for debating rules and politics. Reading some messages from some people I feel like I'm not welcome because I'm not a member of a group of selected people. Don't be dismayed by negative remarks, or a few naysayers who are not even part of the Gentoo Wiki Project. Any user (or dev) with constructive input is welcome. And as you volunteered, you are part of the project. Cheers, -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Qt project lead developer Gentoo Wiki project lead
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
On 9 April 2010 14:35, Maciej Mrozowski reave...@gmail.com wrote: See? This is the problem. Every time comes an initiative to introduce official Gentoo infra hosted Gentoo Wiki (yes, the one that won't loose randomly all its contents) - there's lack of interest of cooperation from already existing unofficial Gentoo-related Wiki admins. You are quite wrong here, as Guy was one of the first to volunteer for the official wiki project. It is the bickering about its status that apparently has demotivated him. Cheers, -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Qt project lead developer Gentoo Wiki project lead
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 6:32 PM, Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org wrote: On 9 April 2010 14:35, Maciej Mrozowski reave...@gmail.com wrote: See? This is the problem. Every time comes an initiative to introduce official Gentoo infra hosted Gentoo Wiki (yes, the one that won't loose randomly all its contents) - there's lack of interest of cooperation from already existing unofficial Gentoo-related Wiki admins. You are quite wrong here, as Guy was one of the first to volunteer for the official wiki project. It is the bickering about its status that apparently has demotivated him. I think at this point you've got the opinions of everyone, and pretty much everyone's needs have been stated. Any more discussion will only distract you and use up time and energy. I say ignore all further discussion on this thread unless you feel it's *really* important. Everything else not from the team is just bikeshedding I think :) -- ~Nirbheek Chauhan Gentoo GNOME+Mozilla Team
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
On 09/04/2010 13:38, Ben de Groot wrote: On 9 April 2010 13:26, Guy Fontaineguy.fonta...@videotron.qc.ca wrote: There are things I know about Gentoo Linux and I'm pleased to share my knowledge with others as well as I'm glad to learn from others. I'm not a Gentoo dev and I neither have plan nor wish to be. My feeling is that Gentoo Wiki Project is just but another occasion for debating rules and politics. Reading some messages from some people I feel like I'm not welcome because I'm not a member of a group of selected people. Don't be dismayed by negative remarks, or a few naysayers who are not even part of the Gentoo Wiki Project. Any user (or dev) with constructive input is welcome. And as you volunteered, you are part of the project. Cheers, I still dont understand people's problems with this. Several devs have said they've wanted one for years, it would be a great place to review documentation before going in the official documentation, it's a great place to discuss and collaborate on future dev handbook pages. The official wiki could and *should* work together with the unofficial wiki because they complement eachother. The unofficial wiki isn't going to want detailed OpenRC documentation and the official wiki isn't going to want how to set up FreeDOOM on it.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
On Fri, Apr 09, 2010 at 06:02:40PM +0100, George Prowse wrote: On 09/04/2010 13:38, Ben de Groot wrote: On 9 April 2010 13:26, Guy Fontaineguy.fonta...@videotron.qc.ca wrote: There are things I know about Gentoo Linux and I'm pleased to share my knowledge with others as well as I'm glad to learn from others. I'm not a Gentoo dev and I neither have plan nor wish to be. My feeling is that Gentoo Wiki Project is just but another occasion for debating rules and politics. Reading some messages from some people I feel like I'm not welcome because I'm not a member of a group of selected people. Don't be dismayed by negative remarks, or a few naysayers who are not even part of the Gentoo Wiki Project. Any user (or dev) with constructive input is welcome. And as you volunteered, you are part of the project. Cheers, I still dont understand people's problems with this. Several devs have said they've wanted one for years, it would be a great place to review documentation before going in the official documentation, it's a great place to discuss and collaborate on future dev handbook pages. The official wiki could and *should* work together with the unofficial wiki because they complement eachother. The unofficial wiki isn't going to want detailed OpenRC documentation and the official wiki isn't going to want how to set up FreeDOOM on it. Really? I understood it as the wiki being an all-purposes wiki, meaning users could (would and should) create articles on how to get some application running or how to get some setting working, and the developers will have their own section, so to speak, where they can collaborate on various projects where a wiki would be an asset. It seems to me from the discussion here on the list that it is to centralize documentation (- the official docs), so that gentoo can point to the wiki and say If it's not in our docs, maybe it's in the wiki. I may have mistaken the actual purpose of the wiki, but then by all means, correct me :-) -- Zeerak Waseem pgpO9ZFxTQRF1.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
On 09/04/10 18:24, Zeerak Mustafa Waseem wrote: Really? I understood it as the wiki being an all-purposes wiki, meaning users could (would and should) create articles on how to get some application running or how to get some setting working, and the developers will have their own section, so to speak, where they can collaborate on various projects where a wiki would be an asset. It seems to me from the discussion here on the list that it is to centralize documentation (- the official docs), so that gentoo can point to the wiki and say If it's not in our docs, maybe it's in the wiki. I may have mistaken the actual purpose of the wiki, but then by all means, correct me :-) It has no purpose. The official wiki currently has no rules and no mission statement. There's been no activity for 3 days. ...in which time the unofficial wiki got countless edits in many languages. And my server downloaded backups 3 times (because we have a public backup policy in place to ensure the content is never lost again - something some people seem to like ignoring (or are just ignorant of)). AllenJB
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
On 09/04/2010 18:24, Zeerak Mustafa Waseem wrote: On Fri, Apr 09, 2010 at 06:02:40PM +0100, George Prowse wrote: On 09/04/2010 13:38, Ben de Groot wrote: On 9 April 2010 13:26, Guy Fontaineguy.fonta...@videotron.qc.ca wrote: There are things I know about Gentoo Linux and I'm pleased to share my knowledge with others as well as I'm glad to learn from others. I'm not a Gentoo dev and I neither have plan nor wish to be. My feeling is that Gentoo Wiki Project is just but another occasion for debating rules and politics. Reading some messages from some people I feel like I'm not welcome because I'm not a member of a group of selected people. Don't be dismayed by negative remarks, or a few naysayers who are not even part of the Gentoo Wiki Project. Any user (or dev) with constructive input is welcome. And as you volunteered, you are part of the project. Cheers, I still dont understand people's problems with this. Several devs have said they've wanted one for years, it would be a great place to review documentation before going in the official documentation, it's a great place to discuss and collaborate on future dev handbook pages. The official wiki could and *should* work together with the unofficial wiki because they complement eachother. The unofficial wiki isn't going to want detailed OpenRC documentation and the official wiki isn't going to want how to set up FreeDOOM on it. Really? I understood it as the wiki being an all-purposes wiki, meaning users could (would and should) create articles on how to get some application running or how to get some setting working, and the developers will have their own section, so to speak, where they can collaborate on various projects where a wiki would be an asset. It seems to me from the discussion here on the list that it is to centralize documentation (- the official docs), so that gentoo can point to the wiki and say If it's not in our docs, maybe it's in the wiki. I may have mistaken the actual purpose of the wiki, but then by all means, correct me :-) I see it as a collaboration piece, something to bridge the gap between developers and users. Users can create pages detailing certain facets of Gentoo and it may get to be included in the documentation on gentoo.org. Some documentation is unfit for an official wiki but that doesn't mean that the information doesn't need to be there for users, that is where the official and unofficial wiki should work together .
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
Allen, if you don't have anything constructive to add, then please refrain from adding to this thread. Thanks, -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Qt project lead developer Gentoo Wiki project lead
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
Here's one possible use-case. For me, I would consider moving http://dev.gentoo.org/~mpagano/genpatches/index.htm to the official wiki so that other people in the kernel herd can update it. If the updating could be scripted, of course. I would not have considered it for an unofficial wiki running on nonGentoo infrastructure. We've been looking for a new 'home' for awhile. [1] [1]http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=176186 --- Mike Pagano Gentoo Developer - Kernel Project E-Mail : mpag...@gentoo.org GnuPG FP : EEE2 601D 0763 B60F 848C 9E14 3C33 C650 B576 E4E3 Public Key : http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=0xB576E4E3op=index
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
On 8 April 2010 21:51, Ryan Hill dirtye...@gentoo.org wrote: why are we setting up a user wiki when a very popular one already exists? Because some devs request things like this: can we can lock certain pages down to dev edits only? In our wiki we will be able to. Cheers, -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Qt project lead developer Gentoo Wiki project lead
RE: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
The official wiki can be use by powerusers who want to write some pretty good doc. A lot of powerusers can write excellent doc on the gentoo forum right now, so they don't need to by Gentoo Dev to right excellent stuff. I don't see your point. To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org From: dirtye...@gentoo.org Subject: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 14:56:04 -0600 On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 22:13:07 +0200 Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org wrote: On 8 April 2010 21:51, Ryan Hill dirtye...@gentoo.org wrote: why are we setting up a user wiki when a very popular one already exists? Because some devs request things like this: can we can lock certain pages down to dev edits only? In our wiki we will be able to. you misunderstood me. i've wanted a dev wiki for years. i just don't see why it should also be promoted as a user wiki when one already exists. -- fonts,by design, by neglect gcc-porting, for a fact or just for effect wxwidgets @ gentoo EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662 _ Videos that have everyone talking! Now also in HD! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724465
RE: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
Indeed, that's why I don't want to have a wiki for devs only. The Gentoo wiki must be for the community and by the community :P There are many Gentoo experts that don't want to be officially devs. d2_racing To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org From: dirtye...@gentoo.org Subject: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 16:55:36 -0600 On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 21:37:46 + Sylvain Alain d2_rac...@hotmail.com wrote: The official wiki can be use by powerusers who want to write some pretty good doc. A lot of powerusers can write excellent doc on the gentoo forum right now, so they don't need to by Gentoo Dev to right excellent stuff. I don't see your point. They already write great stuff on http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/. I think having two different places to put this kind of stuff might split the contributor base. It'd be nice if we could either merge the two or make the official wiki about developing with Gentoo rather than how to use Gentoo, but in any case I'm just happy to have somewhere to stick things. -- fonts,by design, by neglect gcc-porting, for a fact or just for effect wxwidgets @ gentoo EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662 _ Live connected. Get Hotmail Messenger on your phone. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724462
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
Hi, On 2010-04-08 19:51 UTC Ryan Hill wrote: On Mon, 5 Apr 2010 20:12:49 +0200 Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org wrote: After the mostly positive feedback on the recent wiki discussion, we have now gone ahead, formed a preliminary team consisting of both users and developers, and put up a project page [1]. All constructive feedback on this new project is welcome. why are we setting up a user wiki when a very popular one already exists? it seems like a complete duplication of effort. i'm not saying don't do it, i'm just baffled why we would. Well, one reason could be, that the unofficial one lost its whole database once, and there were other multiple multi-day outages in the past. I expect an official Wiki to have a reasonable availability and not losing most of the content, breaking links all over the net for months. Patrick. -- Key ID: 0x86E346D4http://patrick-nagel.net/key.asc Fingerprint: 7745 E1BE FA8B FBAD 76AB 2BFC C981 E686 86E3 46D4 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
