Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

2010-03-06 Thread Mike Frysinger
On Thursday 04 March 2010 19:32:10 Brian Harring wrote:
 On Thu, Mar 04, 2010 at 06:07:17PM -0600, Dale wrote:
  chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
   On 03/04/10 12:53, Ben de Groot wrote:
   Exactly. The last time I owned a printer is over 5 years ago. So I
   don't think cups warrants to be in the standard desktop profile.
   
   Cheers,
   
   I print almost daily, but I'm not sure if printers are commonplace
   enough for cups to be a default. Some users may expect it though.
   
   As for the circular deps, it would seem more logical to fix the
   problem at the source, rather than to cover it up for one subset of
   users.
  
  I can't think of anyone that doesn't have a printer.  All my friends and
  family that has a computer has a printer.  Heck, I had a printer hooked
  up to my old Vic-20 for goodness sake.  That was over 20 years ago.
 
 A sampling size of one is of course representive of the whole.  The
 vast majority of gentoo deployments I deal in, cups is bloat- my
 personal laptop, sure, that's a different story.  That's well under a
 tenth of my installs however.
 
 The point there is that one size doesn't fit all- we have inheritance
 in the profiles for a reason.  Shift cups out of the base and into
 desktop specific profiles.
 
 That one shouldn't be a point of debate.

indeed.  printing support should absolutely be enabled by default in desktop 
profiles.  i'm not sure it makes sense in other profiles.
-mike


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

2010-03-04 Thread Jeremy Olexa

On Thu, 4 Mar 2010 17:04:17 + (UTC), Duncan 1i5t5.dun...@cox.net
wrote:
 Ben de Groot posted on Thu, 04 Mar 2010 13:28:24 +0100 as excerpted:
 
 On 4 March 2010 08:08, Joshua Saddler nightmo...@gentoo.org wrote:
 Your logic is very thin here. By that same line of reasoning, neither
 are the gtk or qt flags, since you don't need 'em if you're building,
 say, a *box desktop.
 
 Toolkits are more directly useful to a desktop than printing.
 
 Printing is something I'd argue is part of a desktop environment.
 
 And I'd argue it isn't necessarily so.
 
 Indeed.  Some (many?) of us use printing uncommonly enough that it's 
 cheaper to put it on a thumb drive and take it to a printer than buy a 
 printer -- and pay for another $10-30 ink cartridge every time we want
to 
 print something, because the last one dried up between uses.  (I keep 
 thinking I'll buy a laser printer, but never seem to get around to doing

 the research on best supported, etc, and always seem to have other
things 
 to spend the money on.  Besides, the tech keeps getting better, so a bit

 of delay isn't hurting... which I've been saying for years now.  How
many 
 are in a similar position?)

Similarly, I have never *owned* a printer because work or school always
has had free printing. So, my opinion is that the Gentoo default of
USE=cups in desktop profiles is bogus for *my* Gentoo desktops. But, I'm
not a desktop profile consumer anyway because they are sub-optimal, imo. ;)

-Jeremy



Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

2010-03-04 Thread Ben de Groot
On 4 March 2010 18:23, Jeremy Olexa darks...@gentoo.org wrote:
 On Thu, 4 Mar 2010 17:04:17 + (UTC), Duncan 1i5t5.dun...@cox.net
 wrote:
 Indeed.  Some (many?) of us use printing uncommonly enough that it's
 cheaper to put it on a thumb drive and take it to a printer than buy a
 printer -- and pay for another $10-30 ink cartridge every time we want
 to print something, because the last one dried up between uses.

 Similarly, I have never *owned* a printer because work or school always
 has had free printing. So, my opinion is that the Gentoo default of
 USE=cups in desktop profiles is bogus for *my* Gentoo desktops.

Exactly. The last time I owned a printer is over 5 years ago. So I don't
think cups warrants to be in the standard desktop profile.

Cheers,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc)
__



Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

2010-03-04 Thread Vincent Launchbury

On 03/04/10 12:53, Ben de Groot wrote:

Exactly. The last time I owned a printer is over 5 years ago. So I don't
think cups warrants to be in the standard desktop profile.

Cheers,


I print almost daily, but I'm not sure if printers are commonplace
enough for cups to be a default. Some users may expect it though.

As for the circular deps, it would seem more logical to fix the problem 
at the source, rather than to cover it up for one subset of users.




Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

2010-03-04 Thread Dale

chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:

On 03/04/10 12:53, Ben de Groot wrote:

Exactly. The last time I owned a printer is over 5 years ago. So I don't
think cups warrants to be in the standard desktop profile.

Cheers,


I print almost daily, but I'm not sure if printers are commonplace
enough for cups to be a default. Some users may expect it though.

As for the circular deps, it would seem more logical to fix the 
problem at the source, rather than to cover it up for one subset of 
users.



I can't think of anyone that doesn't have a printer.  All my friends and 
family that has a computer has a printer.  Heck, I had a printer hooked 
up to my old Vic-20 for goodness sake.  That was over 20 years ago.


He wants to remove the USE flag so that it hides the fact it is not 
really fixed.  If a person does their install as they should, the 
problem will be right there for them to deal with.  Of course, the user 
will the one getting pointed at since they added the flag.  It takes the 
problem off the people that created it and adds it to the user.  That is 
not how it should be fixed.


Dale

:-)  :-)



Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Remove cups from default profile to solve circular deps

2010-03-04 Thread Brian Harring
On Thu, Mar 04, 2010 at 06:07:17PM -0600, Dale wrote:
 chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
  On 03/04/10 12:53, Ben de Groot wrote:
  Exactly. The last time I owned a printer is over 5 years ago. So I don't
  think cups warrants to be in the standard desktop profile.
 
  Cheers,
 
  I print almost daily, but I'm not sure if printers are commonplace
  enough for cups to be a default. Some users may expect it though.
 
  As for the circular deps, it would seem more logical to fix the 
  problem at the source, rather than to cover it up for one subset of 
  users.
 
 
 I can't think of anyone that doesn't have a printer.  All my friends and 
 family that has a computer has a printer.  Heck, I had a printer hooked 
 up to my old Vic-20 for goodness sake.  That was over 20 years ago.

A sampling size of one is of course representive of the whole.  The 
vast majority of gentoo deployments I deal in, cups is bloat- my 
personal laptop, sure, that's a different story.  That's well under a 
tenth of my installs however.

The point there is that one size doesn't fit all- we have inheritance 
in the profiles for a reason.  Shift cups out of the base and into 
desktop specific profiles.

That one shouldn't be a point of debate.


 He wants to remove the USE flag so that it hides the fact it is not 
 really fixed.  If a person does their install as they should, the 
 problem will be right there for them to deal with.  Of course, the user 
 will the one getting pointed at since they added the flag.

Two scenarios.

1) flag is left on by default.  emerge pukes at them about the use 
cycle, user has to go googling and try to figure out the way around 
this (with the end result being flip the flag off, merge stuff, flip 
it back on, rebuild the affected pkgs

2) flag is left off by default.  things emerge fine, but user finds 
they don't have printing.  So... they google it, find out that they 
need to turn a use flag on and then do an emerge -N.


Of the two *viable* scenarios, #2 is frankly the one that's going to 
be less of a pita to users- the folk who need cups on a desktop have a 
clear and simple path to getting cups, versus #1 which requires the 
user to understand dependency cycles induced by use state.

One thing to note- for #1, the user is going to have to do the same 
steps as #2, they're just going to hit a terse failure instead of 
finding that when they go to print, they need to rebuild w/ cups 
support on.  #2 contains the issues/breakage a helluva lot more than 
#1 does.


 It takes the problem off the people that created it and adds it to 
 the user.  That is not how it should be fixed.

Lay off pointing fingers.  Cycles exist and are rather hard to fix- if 
in doubt I strongly suggest you do some research into how stages are 
built (and the existance of the build use flag).  The problem is the 
interdependence in the raw src itself, not ebuild devs.

The use state induced hard dependency cycle issue has been known for a 
long while- the solution to this requires the resolver being able to 
break the cycle via building the pkg multiple times with the use 
state varied to break cycles (as far as I know, none of the PMs do 
this although pkgcore could at one point).

Modifying the resolver to do that sort of cycle breaking is rather 
tricky- work should be done towards it, but it's not the sort of 
thing that's going to be implemented today, and stabled tomorrow.

Basically, punt the flag if you don't want users to hit a cycle on 
fresh installs- it's the only option that exists *now* (and those 
screaming should focus their efforts on implementing the use cycle 
breaking I mentioned above).

~harring


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