Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: remove php4 from depend.php and others

2010-07-12 Thread Petteri Räty
On 07/12/2010 12:56 AM, Doug Goldstein wrote:

 I remember very clearly as you and I were both council members at the
 time. My point is that this discussion does not need to even happen
 and the council shouldn't even remotely be involved here.
 

I assumed the best way to change policy would be to ask council to rule
on it. Of course we could just see if we can get a consensus fast
without council.


 Let developers develop.
 

So instead of making current rules better just screw them?

Regards,
Petteri



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: remove php4 from depend.php and others

2010-07-12 Thread Doug Goldstein
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 3:54 AM, Petteri Räty betelge...@gentoo.org wrote:
 On 07/12/2010 12:56 AM, Doug Goldstein wrote:

 I remember very clearly as you and I were both council members at the
 time. My point is that this discussion does not need to even happen
 and the council shouldn't even remotely be involved here.


 I assumed the best way to change policy would be to ask council to rule
 on it. Of course we could just see if we can get a consensus fast
 without council.

There is no change of policy and there is no reason for the council to
be involved. He can change the eclass how he needs and that's the end
of the story. The council does not need to be involved at every
potential crossroad. The council only needs to be involved when a
potential technical issue arises. No technical issue, proceed ahead.
No need for the council to road block.

e.g. if its not in the rule book you can do it.

This is vastly different then your interpretation of the council's
mandiate, Petteri, which is if its not in the rule book go ask
permission.

Hence my point of saying let developers develop instead of telling
them they need to ask permission and wait 4 weeks while it gets on an
agenda list everytime they want to commit to the tree or blow their
nose or boot up their computer.

-- 
Doug Goldstein



Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: remove php4 from depend.php and others

2010-07-11 Thread Petteri Räty
On 07/11/2010 08:02 AM, Doug Goldstein wrote:

 If I really need to go to the council with every change, considering
 it must be debated on the ML for at least X number of days prior to
 going to the council, I'd more likely just remove MythTV from the tree
 and maintain it in an overlay. I don't invest a lot of time in the
 MythTV ebuilds, but they work for a large majority of people. And when
 a new version comes out it requires some retooling and it just works
 for everyone.
 

When someone proposes this I'll let you know. What's under discussion is
allowing removals to the public API of eclasses by following a
documented process (that doesn't involve council approval).

 So basically, you guys decide.. am I pulling them out of the tree or
 am I leaving them in?
 

If you decided to drop maintenance of MythTV in main tree, wouldn't it
be a better service to users to try and find a new maintainer (who would
possibly merge stuff from your overlay)?

Regards,
Petteri



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: remove php4 from depend.php and others

2010-07-11 Thread Doug Goldstein
On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 7:49 AM, Petteri Räty betelge...@gentoo.org wrote:
 On 07/11/2010 08:02 AM, Doug Goldstein wrote:

 If I really need to go to the council with every change, considering
 it must be debated on the ML for at least X number of days prior to
 going to the council, I'd more likely just remove MythTV from the tree
 and maintain it in an overlay. I don't invest a lot of time in the
 MythTV ebuilds, but they work for a large majority of people. And when
 a new version comes out it requires some retooling and it just works
 for everyone.


 When someone proposes this I'll let you know. What's under discussion is
 allowing removals to the public API of eclasses by following a
 documented process (that doesn't involve council approval).

 So basically, you guys decide.. am I pulling them out of the tree or
 am I leaving them in?


 If you decided to drop maintenance of MythTV in main tree, wouldn't it
 be a better service to users to try and find a new maintainer (who would
 possibly merge stuff from your overlay)?

 Regards,
 Petteri



Simply put, the council's purpose is not to say oh we have to stop
development and have a 4 week debate about everything minor. The
council's purpose is to help decide between different technical
solutions and encourage people to move forward on one unified path.
The council's purpose is not to HINDER development as your responses
clearly suggest you would like to hinder eclass development but
instead to promote positive development.

Someone along the years the council lost its way and has felt that it
needs to stick its fingers into places that it really doesn't belong.
Its really become like the upper management at a large company that
slows its developers down, instead of helping make them more
efficient.

-- 
Doug Goldstein



Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: remove php4 from depend.php and others

2010-07-11 Thread Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Doug.

On 11-07-2010 16:03, Doug Goldstein wrote:
 On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 7:49 AM, Petteri Räty betelge...@gentoo.org wrote:
 On 07/11/2010 08:02 AM, Doug Goldstein wrote:

 If I really need to go to the council with every change, considering
 it must be debated on the ML for at least X number of days prior to
 going to the council, I'd more likely just remove MythTV from the tree
 and maintain it in an overlay. I don't invest a lot of time in the
 MythTV ebuilds, but they work for a large majority of people. And when
 a new version comes out it requires some retooling and it just works
 for everyone.


 When someone proposes this I'll let you know. What's under discussion is
 allowing removals to the public API of eclasses by following a
 documented process (that doesn't involve council approval).

 So basically, you guys decide.. am I pulling them out of the tree or
 am I leaving them in?


 If you decided to drop maintenance of MythTV in main tree, wouldn't it
 be a better service to users to try and find a new maintainer (who would
 possibly merge stuff from your overlay)?

 Regards,
 Petteri


 
 Simply put, the council's purpose is not to say oh we have to stop
 development and have a 4 week debate about everything minor. The
 council's purpose is to help decide between different technical
 solutions and encourage people to move forward on one unified path.
 The council's purpose is not to HINDER development as your responses
 clearly suggest you would like to hinder eclass development but
 instead to promote positive development.

There seems to be some misunderstanding going on as we (Gentoo) haven't
approved (in prior councils terms or in the current one which hopes to
have its first meeting in the coming week or the following) any rules
about eclass changes having to be discussed or approved by the council.

 Someone along the years the council lost its way and has felt that it
 needs to stick its fingers into places that it really doesn't belong.
 Its really become like the upper management at a large company that
 slows its developers down, instead of helping make them more
 efficient.

About the issue in discussion, Petteri was recalling that contrary to
what anyone new to Gentoo might conclude from the current discussion,
the issue of eclass deprecation has been subject to at least 2 separate
discussions in the past 2 or 3 years and that in the last round there
was a proposal for setting minimal deprecation time frames.

- -- 
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: remove php4 from depend.php and others

2010-07-11 Thread Petteri Räty
On 07/11/2010 07:37 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:

 
 Simply put, the council's purpose is not to say oh we have to stop
 development and have a 4 week debate about everything minor. The
 council's purpose is to help decide between different technical
 solutions and encourage people to move forward on one unified path.
 The council's purpose is not to HINDER development as your responses
 clearly suggest you would like to hinder eclass development but
 instead to promote positive development.
 

Original rules (as they were when I joined 2005):

You are only allowed to add to the public API of an eclass.

Eclass removal addition:

Since then council has approved the ability to fully remove eclasses:
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/meeting-logs/20090528-summary.txt

Under discussion:

Extend the rules to allow developers to remove functions from the API of
an eclass. To me this seem exactly like: The council's purpose is to
help decide between different technical solutions and encourage people
to move forward on one unified path.

 
 About the issue in discussion, Petteri was recalling that contrary to
 what anyone new to Gentoo might conclude from the current discussion,
 the issue of eclass deprecation has been subject to at least 2 separate
 discussions in the past 2 or 3 years and that in the last round there
 was a proposal for setting minimal deprecation time frames.
 

There's already an approved process for eclass removal (see link above).
If we allow removal of functions I think there should a similar set of
rules as for eclass and package removal.

Regards,
Petteri



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: remove php4 from depend.php and others

2010-07-11 Thread Brian Harring
On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 07:47:24PM +0300, Petteri RRRty wrote:
 On 07/11/2010 07:37 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
 
  
  Simply put, the council's purpose is not to say oh we have to stop
  development and have a 4 week debate about everything minor. The
  council's purpose is to help decide between different technical
  solutions and encourage people to move forward on one unified path.
  The council's purpose is not to HINDER development as your responses
  clearly suggest you would like to hinder eclass development but
  instead to promote positive development.
  
 
 Original rules (as they were when I joined 2005):
 
 You are only allowed to add to the public API of an eclass.
 
 Eclass removal addition:
 
 Since then council has approved the ability to fully remove eclasses:
 http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/meeting-logs/20090528-summary.txt
 
 Under discussion:
 
 Extend the rules to allow developers to remove functions from the API of
 an eclass. To me this seem exactly like: The council's purpose is to
 help decide between different technical solutions and encourage people
 to move forward on one unified path.

From my stance, I firmly believe the council doesn't really need to be 
involved here.  This is QA's domain- specifically to decide tree 
policy.

The only question here is essentially at what point do we stop 
caring about older portage versions.  portage 2.1.4.4 went stable 
(carrying that support) 06/01/08.  Frankly I'd argue the council's 
original decision while bound to eclasses, should've been bound to the 
2.1.4.4 release- specifically you can't remove eclasses/functionality 
until 2 years after 2.1.4.4.

So... I firmly view this as QA's domain (they set the rules for most 
other tree policies).  Leave it to them to decide.  I realize from 
the standpoint of following the rules, this will require the council 
to state yeah, we're backing out of this, it's now QA's domain, but 
this is my view on what should be done.

~harring


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: remove php4 from depend.php and others

2010-07-11 Thread Doug Goldstein
On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
jmbsvice...@gentoo.org wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Hi Doug.

 On 11-07-2010 16:03, Doug Goldstein wrote:
 On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 7:49 AM, Petteri Räty betelge...@gentoo.org wrote:
 On 07/11/2010 08:02 AM, Doug Goldstein wrote:

 If I really need to go to the council with every change, considering
 it must be debated on the ML for at least X number of days prior to
 going to the council, I'd more likely just remove MythTV from the tree
 and maintain it in an overlay. I don't invest a lot of time in the
 MythTV ebuilds, but they work for a large majority of people. And when
 a new version comes out it requires some retooling and it just works
 for everyone.


 When someone proposes this I'll let you know. What's under discussion is
 allowing removals to the public API of eclasses by following a
 documented process (that doesn't involve council approval).

 So basically, you guys decide.. am I pulling them out of the tree or
 am I leaving them in?


 If you decided to drop maintenance of MythTV in main tree, wouldn't it
 be a better service to users to try and find a new maintainer (who would
 possibly merge stuff from your overlay)?

 Regards,
 Petteri



 Simply put, the council's purpose is not to say oh we have to stop
 development and have a 4 week debate about everything minor. The
 council's purpose is to help decide between different technical
 solutions and encourage people to move forward on one unified path.
 The council's purpose is not to HINDER development as your responses
 clearly suggest you would like to hinder eclass development but
 instead to promote positive development.

 There seems to be some misunderstanding going on as we (Gentoo) haven't
 approved (in prior councils terms or in the current one which hopes to
 have its first meeting in the coming week or the following) any rules
 about eclass changes having to be discussed or approved by the council.

 Someone along the years the council lost its way and has felt that it
 needs to stick its fingers into places that it really doesn't belong.
 Its really become like the upper management at a large company that
 slows its developers down, instead of helping make them more
 efficient.

 About the issue in discussion, Petteri was recalling that contrary to
 what anyone new to Gentoo might conclude from the current discussion,
 the issue of eclass deprecation has been subject to at least 2 separate
 discussions in the past 2 or 3 years and that in the last round there
 was a proposal for setting minimal deprecation time frames.

 - --
 Regards,

 Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
 Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections

Jorge,

I remember very clearly as you and I were both council members at the
time. My point is that this discussion does not need to even happen
and the council shouldn't even remotely be involved here.

Let developers develop.

-- 
Doug Goldstein



Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: remove php4 from depend.php and others

2010-07-11 Thread Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
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On 11-07-2010 21:56, Doug Goldstein wrote:
 On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
 jmbsvice...@gentoo.org wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Hi Doug.

 Jorge,
 
 I remember very clearly as you and I were both council members at the
 time. My point is that this discussion does not need to even happen
 and the council shouldn't even remotely be involved here.

Doug,

you probably mean you and Petteri were council members. I'm serving my
first term as a council member.
I read Petteri's comment as a developer comment. At most, as the lead
recruiter for a few years now. I didn't read it as coming from a council
member.

 Let developers develop.

No arguing from me about it.

- -- 
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: remove php4 from depend.php and others

2010-07-10 Thread Doug Goldstein
On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 10:02 PM, Ryan Hill dirtye...@gentoo.org wrote:
 On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 01:34:37 -0700
 Brian Harring ferri...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 09:30:42AM +0300, Petteri RRRty wrote:
  The standing policy is still not to remove any public functionality from
  eclasses. If we decide to start removing functionality the council
  should set common rules for it.

 Just adding a note on this one- the original technical reason for
 this policy (portage inability to run from just the saved env dump)
 is no longer an issue.

 If people want to allow eclasses to have fluid APIs (specifically
 removal of functionality), that's a discussion that needs to start on
 the dev level.

 Anyone got strong opinions on this one?

 I don't believe there ever was such a policy, except for pkg_{pre,post}rm
 because of the mentioned technical limitations (which were fixed in portage
 2-3 years ago now).  If there is such a policy then I've violated it on
 several occasions :).  In fact, isn't the generally accepted method of
 deprecating an eclass to remove all functionality and replace it with a
 message in global scope and a # @DEAD tag?

 I don't see the advantage of keeping unmaintained broken code no one should
 use around in eclasses.  You can argue that removing eclass functionality can
 potentially break ebuilds in overlays, but if you follow that line of
 reasoning then really we should never remove any package from the tree
 because it may be a dependency of something, somewhere.

 So I'd like to see a policy that treats public functions in eclasses the same
 as the last rites policies for package removal:  minimum 30 day deprecation
 period, mail to dev-announce, etc.


 --
 fonts, gcc-porting,                                   and it's all by design
 toolchain, wxwidgets                        to keep us from losing our minds
 @ gentoo.org                EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662


To be honest, the MythTV eclasses have been an ever evolving set of
eclasses for ages now. Ever since it was declared that its now safe to
remove eclasses from the tree since Portage saves eclasses and its
env, therefore it wouldn't cause a problem.

If I really need to go to the council with every change, considering
it must be debated on the ML for at least X number of days prior to
going to the council, I'd more likely just remove MythTV from the tree
and maintain it in an overlay. I don't invest a lot of time in the
MythTV ebuilds, but they work for a large majority of people. And when
a new version comes out it requires some retooling and it just works
for everyone.

So basically, you guys decide.. am I pulling them out of the tree or
am I leaving them in?

-- 
Doug Goldstein