Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

2008-01-16 Thread Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis
2008-01-15 15:05 Marius Mauch [EMAIL PROTECTED] napisał(a):
 - what feature would you like most to be implemented in portage?
 (parallel builds, localization, revdep-rebuild integration, overlay sync 
 support, gpg verification
 support, support for non-ebuild repositories, better query tools, interactive 
 user interface)

Other features: USE flag dependencies, repository dependencies.


Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

2008-01-16 Thread Marius Mauch
On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 15:09:20 +0100
Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 2008-01-15 15:05 Marius Mauch [EMAIL PROTECTED] napisał(a):
  - what feature would you like most to be implemented in portage?
  (parallel builds, localization, revdep-rebuild integration, overlay sync 
  support, gpg verification
  support, support for non-ebuild repositories, better query tools, 
  interactive user interface)
 
 Other features: USE flag dependencies, repository dependencies.

I've not listed those (and a few others where we know that they are
critical) on purpose.

Marius
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

2008-01-15 Thread Galevsky
On Jan 15, 2008 4:05 AM, Chris Gianelloni [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I was really speaking mostly of the people who
 dislike the *idea* of an Installer for Gentoo, and then go and bash it
 as much as they can without providing any real evidence or reasons,
 except for the old faithful it's against the spirit of Gentoo reason,
 which is a complete fallacy.  Again, Gentoo is about empowering the
 users to make their own decisions.  No, I won't say Gentoo is about
 choice, because that is *STUPID* in that it gives people an excuse to
 argue about even the biggest piece of junk being added to our tree or
 supported, as if we have to, to give them the choice.  Instead, I
 prefer the concept of empowering the user to make their own choices,
 where they can choose to add anything that they want in their personal
 overlay, as we have given them the tools to do so.  Now, if a user wants
 to use an Installer and someone wants to write the code, who are you (or
 I) to say that they are in the wrong?  After all, isn't it that idea of
 empowering the user *really* the spirit of Gentoo?

 I think so.


I am very pleased to hear from someone who knows the basis of any
opened community rules :)
To deal with the top-priority issues and drive Gentoo to the right
direction, there is the council in charge of helping devs to go where
it needs. But restraining users -or devs- projects is not the right
way.

Gal'
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

2008-01-15 Thread Mike Frysinger
On Monday 14 January 2008, likewhoa wrote:
 On Jan 15, 2008 12:16 AM, Chris Gianelloni [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Mon, 2008-01-14 at 22:53 +, likewhoa wrote:
   Which livecd(s) do they prefer?
  
Gentoo livecd-2007.0
Sabayon livecd
Sysresccd
Knoppix
My own
Other
 
  Be sure to list the Minimal CD and the Universal CD, as well as the
  LiveCD, and also list the LiveDVD.  We'll have to relate this data to
  the architecture used when we try to make anything useful out of it, but
  it'll be more accurate, as I definitely want to know *which* Gentoo
  media people are using.  I would also add something like an older
  Gentoo CD to the mix.
 
   Do you think commercial packages should be part of the main tree?
  
Yes
No
Why not
Never!
in unofficial overlay
Dunno
 
  Is this something that we really even want to ask?  I mean, if we're all
  about trying to provide the best user experience, then binary packages
  are almost a requirement, especially with binary packages that were
  originally targeted at specific binary distributions.  I tend to see
  this as one of those religious issues that is best left alone, like
  emacs versus vi.

 Yea commercial packages should maybe be part of overlays.gentoo.org so
 that the tree can stay clean from these types of packages. But I agree
 if it's decided not to included in the user survey.

i dont see any basis for keeping the tree clean other than personal 
opinions.  if you dont want these types of packages, then dont emerge them.  
there are people who want them, there are people who need them, there are 
people who hate them, whatever.  the package manager is the tool for the end 
user to decide what to do with their system.  anything else is not the way to 
go.  to borrow a few flavor words from Chris, here in Gentoo land we empower 
the users, we do not force some arbitrary religious thinking on them.  we are 
not the FSF.  if a user does not agree with this, then they're certainly free 
to choose another distribution, and we'll wish them the best of luck (the FSF 
does have a list of recommended distributions -- Gentoo of course does not 
appear on that list because our mind set does not match theirs).
-mike


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

2008-01-15 Thread Marius Mauch
On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 04:33:48 -0800
Robin H. Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Ok, so per the one discussion in #-dev this evening, I'm looking for
 questions to put on a new user survey.
 
 For style of questions, multiple choice (both pick-one and pick-many) or
 simple integers would be best. However some freeform questions are
 probably going to end up in there anyway. 'Prefer not to answer' and 'I
 don't know' should be available in most questions.
 
 I don't have the original questions on hand right now (but i'm trying to
 get them), so used some classical census questions. Some of the ones I
 threw in are just what came to mind, I'd love to hear more questions and
 more sections.
 
 In the style of census, maybe offering a short form and a long form
 questionnaire would be useful too?
 
 Basic demographics - a bunch of this should probably be optional but 
 recommended
 - Gender (M, F, and the various other forms here)
 - Year of birth
 - # of children??
 - How many years have you been using computers?
 
 Sociocultural information (again, optional stuff):
 - Location (country, and free-form city)
 - Level of education?
 - Job? (type coding this one is hard, and I'd prefer not to have it)
 - Income level

Such questions usually are a reason to not complete a survey for me, and I 
don't see how they are relevant to us (except for maybe location).

 - Do you share your portage tree between systems
 - Do you share your distfiles between systems
 - Do you share your binpkgs between systems

Those should all be multiple choice or at least be more explicit due to 
multiple meanings of share (and in case of binpkgs a I don't use binpkgs 
option should be present as well in some way)

 Portage-related questions:
 (portage team, maybe you can help here?)

(just brainstorming here)
- what feature would you like most to be implemented in portage?
(parallel builds, localization, revdep-rebuild integration, overlay sync 
support, gpg verification support, support for non-ebuild repositories, better 
query tools, interactive user interface)
- do you think that portage has improved significantly over the last 12 months?
- how happy are you with portage in general (scale 1-10)?
- how happy are you with portage documentation (manpages, official online docs, 
...)?
- do you use pkgcore/paludis in addition/in place of portage on Gentoo 
(yes/no/don't know what pkgcore/paludis is)?
- would you be in favor of an automated feedback system to report 
successful/failed package installations for statistical purposes 
(yes/opt-out/opt-in/no)?
- how important is backward compability in the user interface for you (e.g. 
names of commandline options, output format)?

Mind that the survey shouldn't contain too many questions, or many people won't 
complete it IMHO. I guess 10-30 questions might be the sweet spot, if we have 
much more we should run multiple surveys for specific topics spread over time. 
Also can we take measures that such general surveys are repeated at regular 
intervals (once per year/6 months), as a single survey is a nice snapshot, but 
the really interesting thing are the trends evolving over time.

Marius
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

2008-01-14 Thread Rémi Cardona

Robin H. Johnson a écrit :

Ok, so per the one discussion in #-dev this evening, I'm looking for
questions to put on a new user survey.


[snip]

Your survey summed up pretty well all the questions we came up with this 
morning. Thanks for putting it all in ink :)


Cheers,

Rémi
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

2008-01-14 Thread Santiago M. Mola
On Jan 14, 2008 1:33 PM, Robin H. Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Ok, so per the one discussion in #-dev this evening, I'm looking for
 questions to put on a new user survey.

An interesting question would be Which package manager do you use?.

-- 
Santiago M. Mola
Jabber ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

2008-01-14 Thread Robert Buchholz
On Monday, 14. January 2008, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
 Ok, so per the one discussion in #-dev this evening, I'm looking for
 questions to put on a new user survey.

 For style of questions, multiple choice (both pick-one and pick-many) or
 simple integers would be best. However some freeform questions are
 probably going to end up in there anyway. 'Prefer not to answer' and 'I
 don't know' should be available in most questions.

 I don't have the original questions on hand right now (but i'm trying to
 get them), so used some classical census questions. Some of the ones I
 threw in are just what came to mind, I'd love to hear more questions and
 more sections.

Just some ideas:

Usage of Gentoo Services
 (could be differentiated between read only and have an account)
 - Forums
 - Bugzilla
 - Planet Larry
 - Mailing Lists (more differentiated)

 (for read-only)
 - Planet Gentoo
 - Gentoo *ly Newsletter
 - Handbook
 - Other Docs
 - Security Announcements (GLSA)
   -- maybe: If so, how? (Forums, Website, RSS, Announce List, glsa-check)

 - External Gentoo-related sites:
  - Gentoo-Wiki.com
  - ...?

* Do you use overlays? (If so, which?)

Robert


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

2008-01-14 Thread Richard Freeman

Santiago M. Mola wrote:

On Jan 14, 2008 1:33 PM, Robin H. Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Ok, so per the one discussion in #-dev this evening, I'm looking for
questions to put on a new user survey.


An interesting question would be Which package manager do you use?.



Along those lines I'd be curious as to what people are using to handle 
etc-update-like tasks.


Knowing what our users use tells us what we should or shouldn't bother 
supporting.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

2008-01-14 Thread Chris Gianelloni
On Mon, 2008-01-14 at 04:33 -0800, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
 Release-related questions:
 - Should CD media be released at a different rate than stage tarballs?
 - Desired release frequency for minimal/livecd/GRP/stages (annual,
   bi-annual, quarterly, monthly, weekly?)
 - Do you use the installer or install by hand? (need an other field here)

This question would be interesting, though a little moot.  With future
releases, we're making the Installer binary-only.  The reason is simple,
there are too many possible failure opportunities in the live tree or
when building from source.  The number of installer bugs that are
simply compilation bugs (many of which are already fixed in newer
versions/revisions in the tree) is overwhelming compared to the actual
number of bugs in the Installer.  By making it binary only, we only
allow the Installer to use known-good input for producing a user's
system.  All networked installs will be manual, and will follow the
Handbook.  I've thought of producing a simple default source-based
install script that allows someone to still use a source-based and
current installation, without having to type in a bunch of commands.  I
don't know how well this would be received, but it could be something
that you could ask here.

 - How often do you use the media?

Which media do you use? (minimal, universal, livecd, livedvd)

Which version do you use? (So many people tell me things like, I still
use a $version CD, so I think it would be useful...)

 - How often do you install Gentoo (using the stage tarballs or the
   installer)?
 - Do you use GRP? 
 - Would you like to use GRP in future?
 - Binhost questions maybe?
 - Do you use the portage snapshot associated with the release or the
   latest available snapshot or other?
 - Do you use a Gentoo derivative? (give a list with an other option)

What features do you think are lacking on Gentoo install media? (free
form)

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

2008-01-14 Thread Donnie Berkholz
On 04:33 Mon 14 Jan , Robin H. Johnson wrote:
 Ok, so per the one discussion in #-dev this evening, I'm looking for
 questions to put on a new user survey.
 
 For style of questions, multiple choice (both pick-one and pick-many) or
 simple integers would be best. However some freeform questions are
 probably going to end up in there anyway. 'Prefer not to answer' and 'I
 don't know' should be available in most questions.

A lot of the suggested questions are hard facts. Some of them will 
indicate usage to suggest where we might focus, but they mostly won't 
indicate opinions. This means, for example, that people might say 
they're using Gentoo for a server but they won't be able to express how 
well it works.

I would like to see a lot more ratings and scales, for example:

How well does Gentoo as a whole meet your needs?
Perfectly
Extremely well
Fairly well
Not that well
Poorly

Rate the following, on a 1-10 scale (or a perfect to poor scale)

Gentoo's official documentation

Unofficial documentation (forums, wiki, etc)
Forums
Wiki

Are you able to find solutions for Gentoo-related issues on Google
or other search engines?
Always
Usually
Sometimes
Rarely
Never

Robert Buchholz said we should ask about services usage. I also think we 
should ask people to rate those services.


Other questions, that might address issues like our future goals as a 
distribution and will probably involve open-ended portions?

What do you think of Gentoo's future?
It looks bright to I'm installing Ubuntu right now
What is Gentoo best at right now?
What should Gentoo be best at?
What is Gentoo worst at right now?
What should Gentoo stop focusing on?
What hurts Gentoo the most?


Thanks,
Donnie
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey; releng related

2008-01-14 Thread Brent Baude
If the topic of frequent releases is put onto the survey, I would like 
to know what users anticipate as part of the new releases because new 
releases are based on the tree itself.  It has been a while since I have 
used a binary distribution, but when I did, I looked forward to new 
releases because new versions of X and Y were generally tied to it; 
which is not usually the case with Gentoo except where profiles dictate 
that.  Is the motivation for more releases in part the expectation of 
more features?  If so, also collecting their suggestions for a features 
list would be helpful. 

Also helpful would be making sure the user input on releases reflected 
all archs he/she uses.



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

2008-01-14 Thread likewhoa
Here are some questions I would like answered.

Do you use gentoo at home or office?
 Home
 Office
 Both
 I don't use gentoo

What percentage of your business is running gentoo?
 10%
 25%
 50%
 75%
 100%
 none of the above or 0%

How often would you like releases?
 every six months
 every 3 months
 once a year
 whenever

Which DE/WM would you prefer for the gentoo livecd instead of the one
provided?
 Kde
 Xfce
 Fluxbox
 E16
 Fvwm
 Gnome
 Other

How often do you emerge --sync?
 every day
 once a week
 once a month
 every six months
 none of the above

How often do you update your system  world packages?
 every day
 once a week
 once a month
 every six months
 none of the above

How often do you housekeeping on your system i.e revdep-rebuild,--deepcleanetc?
 every day
 once a week
 once a month
 every six months
 none of the above

Who would you recommend gentoo to?
 Friend
 Colleague
 Business partner
 Clients
 Everybody!
 Nobody

Do you consider yourself to be a?
 Advance Gentoo user.
 Novice
 Intermediate
 Noob
 Troll
 None of the above

What GPU are you using with Gentoo?
 ATI
 Nvidia
 Other

What aspect of gentoo would you like see improved?
 Multimedia
 Graphics
 Video
 Security
 Network  Services
 http://gentoo-wiki.com/Index:HOWTO#Networks_.26_Services Gaming
 Emulators
 Kernel
 Developer Community
 Other

What platform do you run gentoo on?
 AMD64
 X86
 Sparc
 ARM
 Alpha
 Hppa
 Ia64
 Mips
 PPC

Do you dual-boot if so with what OS?
 Windows XP
 Windows 98
 Windows 2000
 Windows NT
 BSD
 Unix
 OSX
 Other

How did you come across gentoo?
 Friend told me
 Business collegue
 Distrowatch
 Forums
 Article
 Little blue bird told me
 Other

Do they use grp packages?
 Yes
 No
 What is grp?
 Sometimes
 Never

Which livecd(s) do they prefer?
 Gentoo livecd-2007.0
 Sabayon livecd
 Sysresccd
 Knoppix
 My own
 Other

Do you think commercial packages should be part of the main tree?
 Yes
 No
 Why not
 Never!
 in unofficial overlay
 Dunno

When did you start using gentoo?
 2002
 2003
 2004
 2005
 2006
 2007
 Yesterday
 Just Now

How often should GWN be updated?
 once a week
 everyday
 every month
 every six months
 what is GWN?

Should gentoo have it's own WIKI?
 Yes
 No
 Merge gentoo-wiki instead.

Which package manager are you currently testing?
 Paludis
 Pkgcore

Which package manager are you using instead of portage?
 Paludis
 Pkgcore
 I 3 Portage!!!

Do you like the Gentoo Linux Installer (GLI)?
 Yes
 No
 Never heard of it

How well in-touch do you think dev's are with users?
 Very Good
 Not so Good
 Not at all
 No connection
 None of the above

Well that's all the questions I can come up with and that others
recommended, they are not sorted in any particular way either. I hope this
helps and I would appreciate respectable feedback and criticism instead of
flames and bighead comments.

Thank you.
Fernando a.k.a likewhoa
9188B8D8


Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

2008-01-14 Thread Qian Qiao
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

likewhoa wrote:
 Here are some questions I would like answered.
 
 Do you use gentoo at home or office?
 Home
 Office
 Both
 I don't use gentoo
 
 What percentage of your business is running gentoo?
 10%
 25%
 50%
 75%
 100%
 none of the above or 0%
 
 How often would you like releases?
 every six months
 every 3 months
 once a year
 whenever
 
 Which DE/WM would you prefer for the gentoo livecd instead of the one
 provided?
 Kde
 Xfce
 Fluxbox
 E16
 Fvwm
 Gnome
 Other
 
 How often do you emerge --sync?
 every day
 once a week
 once a month
 every six months
 none of the above
 
 How often do you update your system  world packages?
 every day
 once a week
 once a month
 every six months
 none of the above
 
 How often do you housekeeping on your system i.e revdep-rebuild,--
 deepclean etc?
 every day
 once a week
 once a month
 every six months
 none of the above
 
 Who would you recommend gentoo to?
 Friend
 Colleague
 Business partner
 Clients
 Everybody!
 Nobody
 
 Do you consider yourself to be a?
 Advance Gentoo user.
 Novice
 Intermediate
 Noob
 Troll
 None of the above
 
 What GPU are you using with Gentoo?
 ATI
 Nvidia
 Other
 
 What aspect of gentoo would you like see improved?
 Multimedia
 Graphics
 Video
 Security
 Network  Services
 http://gentoo-wiki.com/Index:HOWTO#Networks_.26_Services
 Gaming
 Emulators
 Kernel
 Developer Community
 Other
 
 What platform do you run gentoo on?
 AMD64
 X86
 Sparc
 ARM
 Alpha
 Hppa
 Ia64
 Mips
 PPC
 
 Do you dual-boot if so with what OS?
 Windows XP
 Windows 98
 Windows 2000
 Windows NT
 BSD
 Unix
 OSX
 Other
 
 How did you come across gentoo?
 Friend told me
 Business collegue
 Distrowatch
 Forums
 Article
 Little blue bird told me
 Other
 
 Do they use grp packages?
 Yes
 No
 What is grp?
 Sometimes
 Never
 
 Which livecd(s) do they prefer?
 Gentoo livecd-2007.0
 Sabayon livecd
 Sysresccd
 Knoppix
 My own
 Other
 
 Do you think commercial packages should be part of the main tree?
 Yes
 No
 Why not
 Never!
 in unofficial overlay
 Dunno
 
 When did you start using gentoo?
 2002
 2003
 2004
 2005
 2006
 2007
 Yesterday
 Just Now
 
 How often should GWN be updated?
 once a week
 everyday
 every month
 every six months
 what is GWN?
 
 Should gentoo have it's own WIKI?
 Yes
 No
 Merge gentoo-wiki instead.
 
 Which package manager are you currently testing?
 Paludis
 Pkgcore
 
 Which package manager are you using instead of portage?
 Paludis
 Pkgcore
 I 3 Portage!!!
 
 Do you like the Gentoo Linux Installer (GLI)?
 Yes
 No
 Never heard of it
 
 How well in-touch do you think dev's are with users?
 Very Good
 Not so Good
 Not at all
 No connection
 None of the above
 
 Well that's all the questions I can come up with and that others
 recommended, they are not sorted in any particular way either. I hope
 this helps and I would appreciate respectable feedback and criticism
 instead of flames and bighead comments.
 
 Thank you.
 Fernando a.k.a likewhoa
 9188B8D8

Here's another:

How often do you get asked not to post in HTML in mailing lists because
some people happenened to use clients that don't like HTML?
 Once a day
 Once every 3 days
 Once a week
 Once a month
 Once a year
 Fxxk others, I don't give a s**t, I post HTML because I can, I won't
give a rat's a** whether you can read it.
 What is html?

- -- Joe

- --
A computer scientist is someone who, when told go to hell, considers
the go to harmful rather than the destination.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

2008-01-14 Thread Mike Frysinger
On Monday 14 January 2008, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
 Ok, so per the one discussion in #-dev this evening, I'm looking for
 questions to put on a new user survey.

*cough* -project *cough*
-mike


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

2008-01-14 Thread Chris Gianelloni
On Mon, 2008-01-14 at 22:53 +, likewhoa wrote:
 Which DE/WM would you prefer for the gentoo livecd instead of the one
 provided?
  Kde 
  Xfce 
  Fluxbox
  E16
  Fvwm 
  Gnome
  Other

Can I suggest that we not ask anything that we likely won't change?  I
have a strong feeling that KDE would win out here, but there's *NO WAY*
that we can fit KDE on a LiveCD with the other stuff.  When we were
planning 2007.1, we had decided to switch to Xfce, simply because of the
space savings.  Cramming a lot of useful stuff onto 700MB is *not* an
easy task.  Space is our biggest enemy here.  Were we to drop the LiveCD
fully in favor of the LiveDVD, then I could see this as (somewhat)
valid, as all of those Window Managers/Desktop Environments are already
shipped on the LiveDVD (except FVWM).  I'm not too interested in
people's opinions for the defaults on a media set that includes them all
and each is only a click or two away, though, as it doesn't really add
anything to what we provide.  If it weren't for the size constraints,
I'd love to know what people prefer on the CD, so I don't want anyone to
think that we don't care.  We do.  We just are limited by a hard size
limit than we cannot do anything about and have to act accordingly.

 Do they use grp packages?
  Yes
  No
  What is grp?
  Sometimes
  Never

Definitely word this in a manner so people know what you're referring
to.  I would say something more along the lines of Do you use the
Installer in Networkless mode or GRP packages when installing your
system?

 Which livecd(s) do they prefer?
  Gentoo livecd-2007.0
  Sabayon livecd
  Sysresccd
  Knoppix
  My own
  Other

Be sure to list the Minimal CD and the Universal CD, as well as the
LiveCD, and also list the LiveDVD.  We'll have to relate this data to
the architecture used when we try to make anything useful out of it, but
it'll be more accurate, as I definitely want to know *which* Gentoo
media people are using.  I would also add something like an older
Gentoo CD to the mix.

 Do you think commercial packages should be part of the main tree?
  Yes
  No
  Why not
  Never!
  in unofficial overlay
  Dunno

Is this something that we really even want to ask?  I mean, if we're all
about trying to provide the best user experience, then binary packages
are almost a requirement, especially with binary packages that were
originally targeted at specific binary distributions.  I tend to see
this as one of those religious issues that is best left alone, like
emacs versus vi.

 How often should GWN be updated?
  once a week
  everyday
  every month
  every six months
  what is GWN?

Again, you're asking something that I don't think that we should be
asking.  We couldn't get content even though we begged and pleaded for
it.  No offense meant to anyone, but I don't care if people want a daily
newsletter.  If we cannot get enough content, we cannot get enough
content.  No survey is going to change that, and asking a question like
this gives the impression that the user's opinion will make a
difference, when it likely will not.  I'd much rather not ask questions
that the users are going to feel like they were ignored than ask them
and not make any changes based on the answers.  Of course, if you're
volunteering to pick up the slack and write any necessary articles to
make it happen at the interval decided by our users, well, I completely
welcome it, then... ;]

 Do you like the Gentoo Linux Installer (GLI)?
  Yes
  No
  Never heard of it

I'd like to see the answers to this one, but I have a feeling that
everybody has a love/hate relationship with this.  They either love it,
or they hate it.  I also tend to think that *many* people have an
opinion on the Installer without ever even using it.  As such, I don't
think that we'd get any usable results out of this, but it'll still be
fun to ask.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

2008-01-14 Thread likewhoa
On Jan 15, 2008 12:16 AM, Chris Gianelloni [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Mon, 2008-01-14 at 22:53 +, likewhoa wrote:
  Which DE/WM would you prefer for the gentoo livecd instead of the one
  provided?
   Kde
   Xfce
   Fluxbox
   E16
   Fvwm
   Gnome
   Other

 Can I suggest that we not ask anything that we likely won't change?  I
 have a strong feeling that KDE would win out here, but there's *NO WAY*
 that we can fit KDE on a LiveCD with the other stuff.  When we were
 planning 2007.1, we had decided to switch to Xfce, simply because of the
 space savings.  Cramming a lot of useful stuff onto 700MB is *not* an
 easy task.  Space is our biggest enemy here.  Were we to drop the LiveCD
 fully in favor of the LiveDVD, then I could see this as (somewhat)
 valid, as all of those Window Managers/Desktop Environments are already
 shipped on the LiveDVD (except FVWM).  I'm not too interested in
 people's opinions for the defaults on a media set that includes them all
 and each is only a click or two away, though, as it doesn't really add
 anything to what we provide.  If it weren't for the size constraints,
 I'd love to know what people prefer on the CD, so I don't want anyone to
 think that we don't care.  We do.  We just are limited by a hard size
 limit than we cannot do anything about and have to act accordingly.

I totally agree with you on that and when I asked that question I only
wanted to see what people prefer and I don't expect users to demand a
change based on the survey question responce. I for one love to have
the livecd run on a WM vs a DE, but again I start the livecd with
'gentoo nox' most times. Maybe the livecd should run a WM and the
liveDVD can run the rest this would free up the livecd and give it
more room for other packages that are missing on the livecd, these
packages could be stuff like wifi tools,system rescue tools, benchmark
etc.




  Do they use grp packages?
   Yes
   No
   What is grp?
   Sometimes
   Never

 Definitely word this in a manner so people know what you're referring
 to.  I would say something more along the lines of Do you use the
 Installer in Networkless mode or GRP packages when installing your
 system?

Good way to put it, I was gonna add GRP - Gentoo Release Packages myself.




  Which livecd(s) do they prefer?
   Gentoo livecd-2007.0
   Sabayon livecd
   Sysresccd
   Knoppix
   My own
   Other

 Be sure to list the Minimal CD and the Universal CD, as well as the
 LiveCD, and also list the LiveDVD.  We'll have to relate this data to
 the architecture used when we try to make anything useful out of it, but
 it'll be more accurate, as I definitely want to know *which* Gentoo
 media people are using.  I would also add something like an older
 Gentoo CD to the mix.



  Do you think commercial packages should be part of the main tree?
   Yes
   No
   Why not
   Never!
   in unofficial overlay
   Dunno

 Is this something that we really even want to ask?  I mean, if we're all
 about trying to provide the best user experience, then binary packages
 are almost a requirement, especially with binary packages that were
 originally targeted at specific binary distributions.  I tend to see
 this as one of those religious issues that is best left alone, like
 emacs versus vi.

Yea commercial packages should maybe be part of overlays.gentoo.org so
that the tree can stay clean from these types of packages. But I agree
if it's decided not to included in the user survey.




  How often should GWN be updated?
   once a week
   everyday
   every month
   every six months
   what is GWN?

 Again, you're asking something that I don't think that we should be
 asking.  We couldn't get content even though we begged and pleaded for
 it.  No offense meant to anyone, but I don't care if people want a daily
 newsletter.  If we cannot get enough content, we cannot get enough
 content.  No survey is going to change that, and asking a question like
 this gives the impression that the user's opinion will make a
 difference, when it likely will not.  I'd much rather not ask questions
 that the users are going to feel like they were ignored than ask them
 and not make any changes based on the answers.  Of course, if you're
 volunteering to pick up the slack and write any necessary articles to
 make it happen at the interval decided by our users, well, I completely
 welcome it, then... ;]


  Do you like the Gentoo Linux Installer (GLI)?
   Yes
   No
   Never heard of it

 I'd like to see the answers to this one, but I have a feeling that
 everybody has a love/hate relationship with this.  They either love it,
 or they hate it.  I also tend to think that *many* people have an
 opinion on the Installer without ever even using it.  As such, I don't
 think that we'd get any usable results out of this, but it'll still be
 fun to ask.

I for one never used it so I can't really love or hate it but from
what people who have used it tells me to stay away from it because
I'll eventually hate it.




Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey; releng related

2008-01-14 Thread Iain Buchanan

On Mon, 2008-01-14 at 16:30 -0600, Brent Baude wrote:
 If the topic of frequent releases is put onto the survey, I would like 
 to know what users anticipate as part of the new releases because new 
 releases are based on the tree itself.  It has been a while since I have 
 used a binary distribution, but when I did, I looked forward to new 
 releases because new versions of X and Y were generally tied to it; 
 which is not usually the case with Gentoo except where profiles dictate 
 that.  Is the motivation for more releases in part the expectation of 
 more features?  If so, also collecting their suggestions for a features 
 list would be helpful. 

There is a thread on gentoo-user currently.  It started out about the
GWN, but it's been hijacked to talk about the install CD.  If you want
to know what / why users want the install CD, then read some of the
comments from here on:

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/192742

-- 
Iain Buchanan iaindb at netspace dot net dot au

Bob Barker: Which one of these lovely womanoids will take home atomic tiara? 

-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list



Re: [gentoo-dev] Seeking questions for a user survey

2008-01-14 Thread Chris Gianelloni
On Tue, 2008-01-15 at 00:34 +, likewhoa wrote:
   Do you think commercial packages should be part of the main tree?
Yes
No
Why not
Never!
in unofficial overlay
Dunno
 
  Is this something that we really even want to ask?  I mean, if we're all
  about trying to provide the best user experience, then binary packages
  are almost a requirement, especially with binary packages that were
  originally targeted at specific binary distributions.  I tend to see
  this as one of those religious issues that is best left alone, like
  emacs versus vi.
 
 Yea commercial packages should maybe be part of overlays.gentoo.org so
 that the tree can stay clean from these types of packages. But I agree
 if it's decided not to included in the user survey.

I look at it very differently.  One of the main advantages to Gentoo is
being source-based.  This allows us to ship packages in our repository
for binary and commercial packages that would otherwise be impossible in
a binary distribution.  Remember, we don't actually ship the commercial
software.  We ship a bash script (essentially) that tells how to install
the software.  As much as I like to appeal to zealots (hahaha, right), I
don't consider shipping a bash script telling how to install a product
to be *anything* like shipping said product, endorsing it, or anything
else license zealots will try to spout to justify the removal of GPL-2
code from our repository.

Many people don't consider overlays, even Gentoo-run ones, to be of
sufficient quality/support/whatever to be used on production systems.
These are the same systems and people that would most likely utilize
these commercial ebuilds.

Basically, it is removing the *option* to install these packages from
the people who would like to use them for the sake of the people who
*REFUSE* to use the packages and insist on their removal from the tree
simply because they don't like the license under which is was released.
I'm sorry, but if that's not against the idea of a free and open
community, I don't know what is.

You have the right to chose what licenses you wish to support and use
software which agrees with your ideals, but that doesn't give you the
right to *DENY* others to do the same.

Sorry, I just don't see it as a valid question, at all.

   Do you like the Gentoo Linux Installer (GLI)?
Yes
No
Never heard of it
 
  I'd like to see the answers to this one, but I have a feeling that
  everybody has a love/hate relationship with this.  They either love it,
  or they hate it.  I also tend to think that *many* people have an
  opinion on the Installer without ever even using it.  As such, I don't
  think that we'd get any usable results out of this, but it'll still be
  fun to ask.
 
 I for one never used it so I can't really love or hate it but from
 what people who have used it tells me to stay away from it because
 I'll eventually hate it.

Well, anybody who dislikes it because of bugs or a bad experience, I can
completely understand.  I was really speaking mostly of the people who
dislike the *idea* of an Installer for Gentoo, and then go and bash it
as much as they can without providing any real evidence or reasons,
except for the old faithful it's against the spirit of Gentoo reason,
which is a complete fallacy.  Again, Gentoo is about empowering the
users to make their own decisions.  No, I won't say Gentoo is about
choice, because that is *STUPID* in that it gives people an excuse to
argue about even the biggest piece of junk being added to our tree or
supported, as if we have to, to give them the choice.  Instead, I
prefer the concept of empowering the user to make their own choices,
where they can choose to add anything that they want in their personal
overlay, as we have given them the tools to do so.  Now, if a user wants
to use an Installer and someone wants to write the code, who are you (or
I) to say that they are in the wrong?  After all, isn't it that idea of
empowering the user *really* the spirit of Gentoo?

I think so.

 Thanks for the great feedback Chris Gianelloni

You're totally welcome.  Take what I've said here as my own opinion, of
course.

 Fernando
-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer


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