Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Tue, February 18, 2014 12:17, Alan McKinnon wrote: > On 18/02/2014 11:52, J. Roeleveld wrote: >> On Tue, February 18, 2014 10:47, Alan McKinnon wrote: >>> What I do run into is daemons that drop privs on start up, like >>> tac_plus. Unwary new sysadmins always try start/stop it as root, >>> caus

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Tue, February 18, 2014 12:54, Mark David Dumlao wrote: > On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 5:52 PM, J. Roeleveld wrote: >> On Tue, February 18, 2014 10:47, Alan McKinnon wrote: >>> On 18/02/2014 05:46, Mark David Dumlao wrote: I used to use cherokee. Fast, light, awesome, and with a web admin.

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 5:52 PM, J. Roeleveld wrote: > On Tue, February 18, 2014 10:47, Alan McKinnon wrote: >> On 18/02/2014 05:46, Mark David Dumlao wrote: >>> I used to use cherokee. Fast, light, awesome, and with a web admin. >>> The init script always failed me. /etc/init.d/cherokee stop was

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On 2014-02-17 3:17 PM, Andrew Savchenko wrote: OK, my choice of words was not appropriate. I mean that not every kernel dev is happy that kdbus is in the kernel now. Noted... Also, please don't CC me, I'm on the list...

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Mon, 17 Feb 2014 19:09:40 -0600 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: > > How Integrated? The TCP/IP stack *is* integrated. But it is *protocol* > > integration, *standards* integration not *software* integration. You do want > > tight integration where it just can't work otherwise, but the design of Unix

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On 18/02/2014 11:52, J. Roeleveld wrote: > On Tue, February 18, 2014 10:47, Alan McKinnon wrote: >> On 18/02/2014 05:46, Mark David Dumlao wrote: >>> I used to use cherokee. Fast, light, awesome, and with a web admin. >>> The init script always failed me. /etc/init.d/cherokee stop was not a >>> gua

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Sun, February 16, 2014 22:16, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: > On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann > wrote: >> oh? I can pipe that output into cat or any any daemon I like? Doesn't >> look like so. > > But it does, you can "cat" with journalctl; it's one of its output > options:

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Tue, February 18, 2014 10:47, Alan McKinnon wrote: > On 18/02/2014 05:46, Mark David Dumlao wrote: >> I used to use cherokee. Fast, light, awesome, and with a web admin. >> The init script always failed me. /etc/init.d/cherokee stop was not a >> guaranteed stop to all forked cherokee processes -

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On 18/02/2014 05:46, Mark David Dumlao wrote: > On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 3:53 AM, Alan McKinnon > wrote: >> > On 17/02/2014 17:29, Stroller wrote: >>> >> >>> >> On Sun, 16 February 2014, at 4:41 pm, Alan McKinnon >>> >> wrote: >>> ... >>> Whatever problems Red Hat are trying to solve i

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 8:05 PM, Gevisz wrote: [ snip ] > How can you be sure if something is "large enough" if, as you say below, > you do not care about probabilities? By writing correct code? >> > SysVinit code size is about 10 000 lines of code, OpenRC contains >> > about 13 000 lines, syste

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 3:53 AM, Alan McKinnon wrote: > On 17/02/2014 17:29, Stroller wrote: >> >> On Sun, 16 February 2014, at 4:41 pm, Alan McKinnon >> wrote: >>> ... >>> Whatever problems Red Hat are trying to solve in the Red Hat space are >>> problems that do not affect me, so I do not need

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Mon, 17 Feb 2014 18:35:34 -0600 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: > On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 11:52 AM, Andrew Savchenko > wrote: > > On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 15:16:36 -0600 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: > >> On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann > >> wrote: > >> > Am 16.02.2014 21:08, schrie

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Yuri K. Shatroff wrote: > Sorry for entering others' dialog... > > > On 17.02.2014 21:13, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: >> >> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:17 AM, Tanstaafl >> wrote: >> [snip] > > Can you surgically remove systemd in the future without reverse >

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 12:24 PM, Andrew Savchenko wrote: > On Mon, 17 Feb 2014 11:13:39 -0600 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: >> > It simply doesn't matter if systemd boils down to one monolithic binary, or >> > 600, if they are tied together in such a way that they can not >> > *individually* be repl

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 11:52 AM, Andrew Savchenko wrote: > On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 15:16:36 -0600 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: >> On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann >> wrote: >> > Am 16.02.2014 21:08, schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés: >> >> On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 12:59 PM, Volker Armin

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Mon, 17 Feb 2014 14:52:33 -0500 Tanstaafl wrote: > On 2014-02-17 12:52 PM, Andrew Savchenko wrote: > > And this is a very, very bad idea. Looks like you don't know matter at > > all: to begin with kdbus protocol is NOT compatible dbus and special > > converter daemon will be needed to enable db

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On 17/02/2014 17:29, Stroller wrote: > > On Sun, 16 February 2014, at 4:41 pm, Alan McKinnon > wrote: >> ... >> Whatever problems Red Hat are trying to solve in the Red Hat space are >> problems that do not affect me, so I do not need Red Hat's solution. As >> for Gnome, I have yet to see a vali

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On 2014-02-17 12:52 PM, Andrew Savchenko wrote: And this is a very, very bad idea. Looks like you don't know matter at all: to begin with kdbus protocol is NOT compatible dbus and special converter daemon will be needed to enable dbus to talk to kdbus. The whole kdbus technology is very question

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

Sorry for entering others' dialog... On 17.02.2014 21:13, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:17 AM, Tanstaafl wrote: [snip] Can you surgically remove systemd in the future without reverse engineering half of what the LSB would look at the time, or will its developers ensure t

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Mon, 17 Feb 2014 11:13:39 -0600 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: > > It simply doesn't matter if systemd boils down to one monolithic binary, or > > 600, if they are tied together in such a way that they can not > > *individually* be replaced *easily and simply* (ie, without having to > > rewrite the

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 15:16:36 -0600 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: > On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann > wrote: > > Am 16.02.2014 21:08, schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés: > >> On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 12:59 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann > >> wrote: > >> [ snip ] > >>> or it is an idiotic deci

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:17 AM, Tanstaafl wrote: [snip] > Maybe it is 'full of errors', but is the primary point true? False implies whatever you want it to imply. You can't prove anything if your assumptions are incorrect. >> There is actually little code inside PID 1; > > > The quoted text sa

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Sun, 16 February 2014, at 4:41 pm, Alan McKinnon wrote: > ... > Whatever problems Red Hat are trying to solve in the Red Hat space are > problems that do not affect me, so I do not need Red Hat's solution. As > for Gnome, I have yet to see a valid reason why Gnome *must* use > systemd; that i

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On 17/02/2014 14:17, Tanstaafl wrote: > In fact, it seems to me that, since (from what I've read) the primary > reason that systemd was written in the first place was to provide > extremely fast boots *in virtualized environments*, having it be a > choice made by selecting a corresponding *profile*

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On 02/17/2014 06:17 AM, Tanstaafl wrote: > Thanks to all who chimed in... > > On 2014-02-16 3:27 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: >> On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 1:26 PM, Mick wrote: >> [snip] >>> You may have lost it in the link that Volker posted (thanks Volker), >>> but this >>> comment from HaakonK

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

Thanks to all who chimed in... On 2014-02-16 3:27 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 1:26 PM, Mick wrote: [snip] You may have lost it in the link that Volker posted (thanks Volker), but this comment from HaakonKL probably sums it up: "... I will give Upstart this though:

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

17.02.2014 00:19, Canek Peláez Valdés пишет: On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Yuri K. Shatroff wrote: [ snip ] Isn't there too many "if you believe" and "if you agree"? A church of systemd? ;) As I said to Tanstaafl, it gets kind of philosophical. Even religious. Technically, systemd is t

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On 16/02/14 23:28, Alan McKinnon wrote: > On 16/02/2014 20:11, Samuli Suominen wrote: >> On 16/02/14 18:41, Alan McKinnon wrote: >>> On 16/02/2014 17:46, Tanstaafl wrote: On 2014-02-15 3:32 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: > For Slackware, I have no idea. For Debian, no the only options we

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On 16/02/2014 20:11, Samuli Suominen wrote: > > On 16/02/14 18:41, Alan McKinnon wrote: >> On 16/02/2014 17:46, Tanstaafl wrote: >>> On 2014-02-15 3:32 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: For Slackware, I have no idea. For Debian, no the only options were[1]: 1. sysvinit (status quo) >>

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: > Am 16.02.2014 21:08, schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés: >> On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 12:59 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann >> wrote: >> [ snip ] >>> or it is an idiotic decision. Because features means complexity. >> Yeah, like the kernel. >> >>> Co

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

Am 16.02.2014 21:19, schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés: > Why GNOME started using it? because of redhat. Seriously, you had to ask that?

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

Am 16.02.2014 21:08, schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés: > On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 12:59 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann > wrote: > [ snip ] >> or it is an idiotic decision. Because features means complexity. > Yeah, like the kernel. > >> Complexity means bugs. > Bugs get reported, bugs get fixes. Life goes on.

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

Am 16.02.2014 21:27, schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés: > On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 1:26 PM, Mick wrote: > [snip] >> You may have lost it in the link that Volker posted (thanks Volker), but this >> comment from HaakonKL probably sums it up: >> >> "... I will give Upstart this though: Should something bett

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 1:26 PM, Mick wrote: [snip] > You may have lost it in the link that Volker posted (thanks Volker), but this > comment from HaakonKL probably sums it up: > > "... I will give Upstart this though: Should something better come along, you > could replace upstart. I guess this h

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Yuri K. Shatroff wrote: [ snip ] > Isn't there too many "if you believe" and "if you agree"? A church of > systemd? ;) As I said to Tanstaafl, it gets kind of philosophical. Technically, systemd is the obvious superior choice, and that's why the TC voted for it i

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 12:59 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: [ snip ] > or it is an idiotic decision. Because features means complexity. Yeah, like the kernel. > Complexity means bugs. Bugs get reported, bugs get fixes. Life goes on. > And you don't want complexity in PID1 or init. Let those

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 12:31 PM, Mick wrote: [ snip ] > well or does better than other init process start up systems. The main > objection from what I understand is the removal of choice that systemd > developers have forced upon users, by making certain architectural decisions. > These are deci

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On 16.02.2014 23:26, Mick wrote: On Sunday 16 Feb 2014 19:00:43 Yuri K. Shatroff wrote: [ ... ] But why then is Linux drifting to systemd? The answer is simple: money. Time is money. You have to support two init systems -> twice the time, twice the money. Sooner or later, a sum of money will out

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Sunday 16 Feb 2014 19:00:43 Yuri K. Shatroff wrote: > On 16.02.2014 20:50, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: > [ ... ] > > > It's because they are cons only if you agree with systemd's view of the > > world. > > > > I do. > > Isn't there too many "if you believe" and "if you agree"? A church of > sy

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On 16.02.2014 20:50, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: [ ... ] It's because they are cons only if you agree with systemd's view of the world. I do. Isn't there too many "if you believe" and "if you agree"? A church of systemd? ;) I wonder why all systemd's fancy stuff hasn't yet been integrated in

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

Am 16.02.2014 17:50, schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés: > On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 9:46 AM, Tanstaafl wrote: >> On 2014-02-15 3:32 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: >>> For Slackware, I have no idea. For Debian, no the only options were[1]: >>> >>> 1. sysvinit (status quo) >>> 2. systemd >>> 3. upstart >>>

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

Am 15.02.2014 16:16, schrieb Tanstaafl: > Hi all, > > Not to revive a flame-fest against systemd, but... > > I'm sure some or most of you have already heard about this, but I > found a really decent thread discussing this whole systemd thing. It > is only really comparing systemd and upstart, as th

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Sunday 16 Feb 2014 16:50:26 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: > On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 9:46 AM, Tanstaafl wrote: > > On 2014-02-15 3:32 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: > >> For Slackware, I have no idea. For Debian, no the only options were[1]: > >> > >> 1. sysvinit (status quo) > >> 2. systemd > >

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On 16/02/14 18:41, Alan McKinnon wrote: > On 16/02/2014 17:46, Tanstaafl wrote: >> On 2014-02-15 3:32 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: >>> For Slackware, I have no idea. For Debian, no the only options were[1]: >>> >>> 1. sysvinit (status quo) >>> 2. systemd >>> 3. upstart >>> 4. openrc (experiment

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 9:46 AM, Tanstaafl wrote: > On 2014-02-15 3:32 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: >> >> For Slackware, I have no idea. For Debian, no the only options were[1]: >> >> 1. sysvinit (status quo) >> 2. systemd >> 3. upstart >> 4. openrc (experimental) >> 5. One system on Linux, som

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On 16/02/2014 17:46, Tanstaafl wrote: > On 2014-02-15 3:32 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: >> For Slackware, I have no idea. For Debian, no the only options were[1]: >> >> 1. sysvinit (status quo) >> 2. systemd >> 3. upstart >> 4. openrc (experimental) >> 5. One system on Linux, something else on n

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On 2014-02-15 3:32 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: For Slackware, I have no idea. For Debian, no the only options were[1]: 1. sysvinit (status quo) 2. systemd 3. upstart 4. openrc (experimental) 5. One system on Linux, something else on non-linux 6. multiple It should also be noted that no one

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Sat, 15 Feb 2014 14:30:10 -0600 Daniel Campbell wrote: > On 02/15/2014 11:32 AM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: > > On Feb 15, 2014 11:02 AM, "Tanstaafl" > > wrote: > >> > >> On 2014-02-15 10:16 AM, Tanstaafl > > wrote: > >>> >

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Daniel Campbell wrote: > On 02/15/2014 02:32 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: >> On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Mick wrote: >>> On Saturday 15 Feb 2014 17:32:44 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Feb 15, 2014 11:02 AM, "Tanstaafl" wrote: > On 2014-02-15 10:16

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On 02/15/2014 02:32 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: > On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Mick wrote: >> On Saturday 15 Feb 2014 17:32:44 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: >>> On Feb 15, 2014 11:02 AM, "Tanstaafl" wrote: On 2014-02-15 10:16 AM, Tanstaafl wrote: > Hi all, > > Not to revive

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Mick wrote: > On Saturday 15 Feb 2014 17:32:44 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: >> On Feb 15, 2014 11:02 AM, "Tanstaafl" wrote: >> > On 2014-02-15 10:16 AM, Tanstaafl wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> Not to revive a flame-fest against systemd, but... >> >> >> >> I'm su

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On 02/15/2014 11:32 AM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: > On Feb 15, 2014 11:02 AM, "Tanstaafl" > wrote: >> >> On 2014-02-15 10:16 AM, Tanstaafl > wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> Not to revive a flame-fest against systemd, but... >>> >

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Saturday 15 Feb 2014 17:32:44 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: > On Feb 15, 2014 11:02 AM, "Tanstaafl" wrote: > > On 2014-02-15 10:16 AM, Tanstaafl wrote: > >> Hi all, > >> > >> Not to revive a flame-fest against systemd, but... > >> > >> I'm sure some or most of you have already heard about this,

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On Feb 15, 2014 11:02 AM, "Tanstaafl" wrote: > > On 2014-02-15 10:16 AM, Tanstaafl wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> Not to revive a flame-fest against systemd, but... >> >> I'm sure some or most of you have already heard about this, but I found >> a really decent thread discussing this whole systemd th

Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

On 2014-02-15 10:16 AM, Tanstaafl wrote: Hi all, Not to revive a flame-fest against systemd, but... I'm sure some or most of you have already heard about this, but I found a really decent thread discussing this whole systemd thing. It is only really comparing systemd and upstart, as that was t

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