Re: [gentoo-user] I shoot into my own feet: dhcpd installed...
meino.cra...@gmx.de wrote: Hi, (still struggling with my Arietta board...;) I did something really stupid: I emerged dhcpd on my Arietta G25 board (which runs Gentoo of course :) and rebooted...without configuring it (or anything else). BEFORE this [CENSORED] action /etc/conf.d/net was set to assign a static IP to usb0, which works. Now the boards still boots fine ... but I cannot access it, because the usb0 gets no IP. First thing I want to get back is the static IP settings I had before I installed dhcpd. I grepped through /etc to find any hint, where the decision is made to start dhcpd, I renamed different 'dhcpd*.*'-files to disable the start of dhcpd...but now I only get 'lo' running...no usb0 at all. Where can I disable dhcpd so the static IP settings get reactivated (since the system is not accessable, I cannot unemerge dhcpd)? Thank you very much in advance for any help! Best regards, mcc Take a peek in this directory: /etc/runlevels/default/ I think if you remove that link it will not start the service. In other words, if you have dhcpd in there, or one of the other runlevels, remove it. Of course, there is the chance that if it is installed, some other script may use it even if it isn't started. Hope that helps. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] I shoot into my own feet: dhcpd installed...
Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com [14-11-22 11:18]: meino.cra...@gmx.de wrote: Hi, (still struggling with my Arietta board...;) I did something really stupid: I emerged dhcpd on my Arietta G25 board (which runs Gentoo of course :) and rebooted...without configuring it (or anything else). BEFORE this [CENSORED] action /etc/conf.d/net was set to assign a static IP to usb0, which works. Now the boards still boots fine ... but I cannot access it, because the usb0 gets no IP. First thing I want to get back is the static IP settings I had before I installed dhcpd. I grepped through /etc to find any hint, where the decision is made to start dhcpd, I renamed different 'dhcpd*.*'-files to disable the start of dhcpd...but now I only get 'lo' running...no usb0 at all. Where can I disable dhcpd so the static IP settings get reactivated (since the system is not accessable, I cannot unemerge dhcpd)? Thank you very much in advance for any help! Best regards, mcc Take a peek in this directory: /etc/runlevels/default/ I think if you remove that link it will not start the service. In other words, if you have dhcpd in there, or one of the other runlevels, remove it. Of course, there is the chance that if it is installed, some other script may use it even if it isn't started. Hope that helps. Dale :-) :-) Hi Dale, that was also my the first idea... (in the meanwhile I found it.) But the thing is more of magic...its automagic! One has to do enter this rc_hotplug=!dhcpd into /etc/rc.conf. The ! stands for not. If one would ask me, I also would prefer the ordinary straight forward way of starting it as any other daemon via the way you have described. But I am sure that they are higher and more elaborated thoughts of wisdom which explain, why it is done the way it is done... ;) Only my two cents of money... Best regards, mcc
Re: [gentoo-user] OT: new thinkpad with Gentoo
I will agree with the suggestion that Asus laptop keyboards are decent. On the higher end models the keys have a surprising amount of travel. As for keyboards with a trackpoint, I would suggest the TEX Yoda Trackpoint and the Miniguru keyboards. Sadly, neither is available with any regularity (the second seems to have had a prototype run but is currently in design), and I believe the mouse is different from a traditional trackpoint by virtue of patents. I became very accustomed to the trackpoint on a previous laptop I had. Since they are so rare, I've turned to tiling window managers to remove my need of mouse. On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 2:45 PM, Stefan G. Weichinger li...@xunil.at wrote: Am 20.11.2014 um 21:16 schrieb Daniel Frey: On 11/20/2014 11:16 AM, thegeezer wrote: yeah at first it's odd, but then when you start getting used to navigating without removing hands from keyboard it does become almost a prerequisite. does anyone know if you can get usb keyboards that have the trackpoint style mini-joystick in the middle of them ? Yep: http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/itemdetails/0B47190/460/60AC6A0372B14F5BA7B12F1FF88E33C7 I almost bought this one but I wanted a usb port on my keyboard itself for my mouse, IIRC this one didn't have that. I have used a lenovo keyboard with it, I liked it, just wish it had a USB port for the mouse. I am using a Lenovo keyboard (USB Keyboard SK-8815) for my main workstation for years now. Still working fine. It does not bring a trackpoint but has 2 USB ports and some special function keys I never managed to get working ... maybe I should take another approach as it might be supported for months and years now. Stefan
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo's future directtion ?
On 11/22/14 01:20, Rich Freeman wrote: On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 7:13 PM, wirel...@tampabay.rr.com wrote: On 11/21/14 17:10, Rich Freeman wrote: If you want to work on them, you might consider becoming a dev, or working on them in an overlay (which is a good way to become a dev, actually). Exactly, I agree. That is why the idea to have a small core of Gentoo elites (the chosen devs) and move everyone else into overlays, is a very bad idea. You seem to be under the impression that Gentoo devs work on things that the Gentoo leadership tells them to work on. That is hardly the case, many of our most important packages are also the least maintained, because devs work on what they work on, and not on the stuff the leadership considers important. If a Gentoo developer wanted to work on Java the leadership wouldn't interfere with that just as they didn't interfere with a couple of devs deciding to fork udev. Rich Not really. I think you misss my points and intentions exactly. Java is critical and growing. Folks are constantly knocking on the gentoo door with technologies, that are java centric. Here is the latest one, just posted to gentoo-dev: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Android I tried to participate with the java herd/project. Few have the authority to close old java bugs. The few that do, are apathetic, absent or just do not 'give a shit'. I was told to go work on java bugs, maybe somebody will notice. Really. The first 100 or so I looked at, are deprecated. They just need somebody to 'remove them' the BGO java backlog is being artificially used to prevent java work on gentoo. Somebody of authority needs to open up java for other folks to work on. Close the 100 oldest bugs is a no brainer and a good start, yet nobody will do that, and nobody else is allowed to close them. *CONVENIENT* if you hate java and are in control. If this is not true, the the council should open up java bug cleaning. Worst case scenario, these hundreds of old bugs will have to be re-filed, with updated data from this decade. (actually a very excellent idea in and of itself). This policy, whether part of a grand conspiracy, or due to apathetic leadership, has the net effect to run off potential new devs to gentoo and who like java. PS. sorry about forking to new threads, my access is now nntp (earlybird) and it just down not follow the thread correctly. Rich, I actually appreciate you help. But somebody of authority is going to have to step into this java on gentoo mess and clean house, provide leadership and encourage (hell, just remove the roadblocks) from java on gentoo. OK? sincerely, James
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo's future directtion ?
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:12 PM, wirel...@tampabay.rr.com wrote: The first 100 or so I looked at, are deprecated. They just need somebody to 'remove them' the BGO java backlog is being artificially used to prevent java work on gentoo. Somebody of authority needs to open up java for other folks to work on. Close the 100 oldest bugs is a no brainer and a good start, yet nobody will do that, and nobody else is allowed to close them. *CONVENIENT* if you hate java and are in control. How are open bugs artificially preventing java work? If you want to work on Java, then work on it. You don't even need to look at Bugzilla to work on something. Just do it. This policy, whether part of a grand conspiracy, or due to apathetic leadership, has the net effect to run off potential new devs to gentoo and who like java. What policy are you talking about? ANY Gentoo dev can work on or close java bugs, as long as they're maintaining the packages in question. THAT is Gentoo policy. If some dev feels that somebody is preventing this from happening all they have to do is speak up and it will be taken care of. Squatting is not allowed in Gentoo. I think the real problem is that there aren't many devs who care about Java in the first place. That isn't a policy problem - it is a manpower problem. Rich, I actually appreciate you help. But somebody of authority is going to have to step into this java on gentoo mess and clean house, provide leadership and encourage (hell, just remove the roadblocks) from java on gentoo. Show me somebody willing to do the work who is being prevented from doing the work, and we can figure out how to fix things. Like most FOSS projects Gentoo is a do-ocracy. The leaders are the people who DO things, not the people who get elected. For the most part the people who are elected try to keep obstacles out of the way of those who do things, and generally provide basic rules so that we can all live together. As a Gentoo user and leader, there really wouldn't be that much personal impact to me if Java disappeared from the tree. That doesn't mean that I want to see it go, or that I won't do what I can to enable people to care for it. However, most FOSS projects are driven by people who are scratching their own itches. The only way Java will have a good experience on Gentoo is if lots of people who use Java step up and make it that way. You can't look to a bunch of people who don't care about Java and try to get them to care, whether they're leaders or not. If you told me that a million more people would use Gentoo if only we spent an extra couple of hours working on Java, I'd ask why I should care if a million more people use Gentoo? :) I want people to use Gentoo because it is the right solution for them, and I want them to contribute back. If they'd be happier elsewhere, then more power to them. Most Gentoo devs aren't out to maximize our market share or anything like that. Please don't take this as some kind of rejection. I'd love to see Gentoo have great Java support. However, I doubt it matters as much to me as it does to you, so you're the one with the incentive to make it happen. That's how just about everything that exists in Gentoo got the way it is - somebody cared and made it happen. -- Rich
Re: [gentoo-user] I shoot into my own feet: dhcpd installed...
meino.cra...@gmx.de wrote: Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com [14-11-22 11:18]: meino.cra...@gmx.de wrote: Hi, (still struggling with my Arietta board...;) I did something really stupid: I emerged dhcpd on my Arietta G25 board (which runs Gentoo of course :) and rebooted...without configuring it (or anything else). BEFORE this [CENSORED] action /etc/conf.d/net was set to assign a static IP to usb0, which works. Now the boards still boots fine ... but I cannot access it, because the usb0 gets no IP. First thing I want to get back is the static IP settings I had before I installed dhcpd. I grepped through /etc to find any hint, where the decision is made to start dhcpd, I renamed different 'dhcpd*.*'-files to disable the start of dhcpd...but now I only get 'lo' running...no usb0 at all. Where can I disable dhcpd so the static IP settings get reactivated (since the system is not accessable, I cannot unemerge dhcpd)? Thank you very much in advance for any help! Best regards, mcc Take a peek in this directory: /etc/runlevels/default/ I think if you remove that link it will not start the service. In other words, if you have dhcpd in there, or one of the other runlevels, remove it. Of course, there is the chance that if it is installed, some other script may use it even if it isn't started. Hope that helps. Dale :-) :-) Hi Dale, that was also my the first idea... (in the meanwhile I found it.) But the thing is more of magic...its automagic! One has to do enter this rc_hotplug=!dhcpd into /etc/rc.conf. The ! stands for not. If one would ask me, I also would prefer the ordinary straight forward way of starting it as any other daemon via the way you have described. But I am sure that they are higher and more elaborated thoughts of wisdom which explain, why it is done the way it is done... ;) Only my two cents of money... Best regards, mcc Oh yea. I forgot about that one. I had to use that MANY years ago. Well, glad you found the proper solution. I knew there had to be a way. ;-) Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo's future directtion ?
On 11/22/14 13:00, Rich Freeman wrote: On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:12 PM, wirel...@tampabay.rr.com wrote: The first 100 or so I looked at, are deprecated. They just need somebody to 'remove them' the BGO java backlog is being artificially used to prevent java work on gentoo. Somebody of authority needs to open up java for other folks to work on. Close the 100 oldest bugs is a no brainer and a good start, yet nobody will do that, and nobody else is allowed to close them. *CONVENIENT* if you hate java and are in control. Please don't take this as some kind of rejection. I'd love to see Gentoo have great Java support. However, I doubt it matters as much to me as it does to you, so you're the one with the incentive to make it happen. That's how just about everything that exists in Gentoo got the way it is - somebody cared and made it happen. -- Rich Exactly. So we agree; that is the reason the original post on the idea to move everything external to gentoo core, is a very bad one. Java exists and prospers on Gentoo, mostly in overlays. Formalizing that (original) proposal will only serve to further enshrine the fact that java on gentoo, get's little love and no java-centric developer will every get close to the core or gentoo. I'm using java as an example; the science herd and the clustering herd (projects if you like) are in the same boat. I do appreciate your candid and clear responses. James
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo's future directtion ?
On 11/22/2014 07:12 PM, wirel...@tampabay.rr.com wrote: On 11/22/14 01:20, Rich Freeman wrote: On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 7:13 PM, wirel...@tampabay.rr.com wrote: On 11/21/14 17:10, Rich Freeman wrote: If you want to work on them, you might consider becoming a dev, or working on them in an overlay (which is a good way to become a dev, actually). Exactly, I agree. That is why the idea to have a small core of Gentoo elites (the chosen devs) and move everyone else into overlays, is a very bad idea. I don't see the argument here. It depends very much on what that actually means. You seem to be under the impression that Gentoo devs work on things that the Gentoo leadership tells them to work on. That is hardly the case, many of our most important packages are also the least maintained, because devs work on what they work on, and not on the stuff the leadership considers important. If a Gentoo developer wanted to work on Java the leadership wouldn't interfere with that just as they didn't interfere with a couple of devs deciding to fork udev. Rich Not really. I think you misss my points and intentions exactly. Java is critical and growing. Folks are constantly knocking on the gentoo door with technologies, that are java centric. Here is the latest one, just posted to gentoo-dev: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Android I tried to participate with the java herd/project. Few have the authority to close old java bugs. The few that do, are apathetic, absent or just do not 'give a shit'. I was told to go work on java bugs, maybe somebody will notice. Really. The first 100 or so I looked at, are deprecated. They just need somebody to 'remove them' the BGO java backlog is being artificially used to prevent java work on gentoo. Somebody of authority needs to open up java for other folks to work on. Close the 100 oldest bugs is a no brainer and a good start, yet nobody will do that, and nobody else is allowed to close them. *CONVENIENT* if you hate java and are in control. If this is not true, the the council should open up java bug cleaning. Worst case scenario, these hundreds of old bugs will have to be re-filed, with updated data from this decade. (actually a very excellent idea in and of itself). This policy, whether part of a grand conspiracy, or due to apathetic leadership, has the net effect to run off potential new devs to gentoo and who like java. PS. sorry about forking to new threads, my access is now nntp (earlybird) and it just down not follow the thread correctly. Rich, I actually appreciate you help. But somebody of authority is going to have to step into this java on gentoo mess and clean house, provide leadership and encourage (hell, just remove the roadblocks) from java on gentoo. OK? Gentoo has a lot of organizational, technical and social problems. Some of them would just stop existing if we'd move to a more distributed model, because you'd be able to regroup more easily and work on the things you care about without stepping on each others toes. No one would care in such a distributed model if there is one person blocking progress somewhere. They would just move on, regroup around a new overlay and start working there and let that guy/project rot forever. Users would easily be able to pick up what the most community-driven and collaborative overlays are and would support those instead of some idle, stubborn or hard-to-work-with overlay maintainers. In that sense, there wouldn't be a single java ebuild in the core tree. That would totally be a community effort and you wouldn't have to vent that much here, but would be working on java ebuilds instead. Hell, you could even easily fork the WHOLE base-system and toolchain without forking the whole rest of the distro. We don't need more authority, we need less... and we need more actual opensource workflow. Our tools, our organizational model and our workflow are ALL ancient. And they don't seem to work very well, do they? Also see: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Distributed_Gentoo
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo's future directtion ?
Am 22.11.2014 um 20:59 schrieb wirel...@tampabay.rr.com: On 11/22/14 13:00, Rich Freeman wrote: On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:12 PM, wirel...@tampabay.rr.com wrote: The first 100 or so I looked at, are deprecated. They just need somebody to 'remove them' the BGO java backlog is being artificially used to prevent java work on gentoo. Somebody of authority needs to open up java for other folks to work on. Close the 100 oldest bugs is a no brainer and a good start, yet nobody will do that, and nobody else is allowed to close them. *CONVENIENT* if you hate java and are in control. Please don't take this as some kind of rejection. I'd love to see Gentoo have great Java support. However, I doubt it matters as much to me as it does to you, so you're the one with the incentive to make it happen. That's how just about everything that exists in Gentoo got the way it is - somebody cared and made it happen. -- Rich Exactly. So we agree; that is the reason the original post on the idea to move everything external to gentoo core, is a very bad one. Java exists and prospers on Gentoo, mostly in overlays. Formalizing that (original) proposal will only serve to further enshrine the fact that java on gentoo, get's little love and no java-centric developer will every get close to the core or gentoo. I'm using java as an example; the science herd and the clustering herd (projects if you like) are in the same boat. I do appreciate your candid and clear responses. James . please stop this nonesense. And I don't mean what you are talking about. Learn to thread. Seriously. Your emails popping up everywhere, instead of one, nice thread. If you are using a broken mail client, get another one. If it is your own fault: stop it. I don't give a shit about java or whatever you are talking about. But I am so fed up with seeing your emails everywhere. Threading. Keeps people sane.
[gentoo-user] Message threading (Was: Gentoo's future directtion ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sat, 22 Nov 2014 21:29:34 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann (volkerar...@googlemail.com) wrote about Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo's future directtion ? (in 5470f22e.4010...@googlemail.com): And I don't mean what you are talking about. Learn to thread. Seriously. Your emails popping up everywhere, instead of one, nice thread. If you are using a broken mail client, get another one. If it is your own fault: stop it. James mentioned up-thread that he was using NNTP. This problem could well be caused by messages going through the rogue NNTP server bofh.it. This was affecting my message threading a couple of years ago, when I was posting replies from eternel-september.org, which is downstream from bofh.it. - -- Regards, Dave [RLU #314465] *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* dwn...@ntlworld.com (David W Noon) *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlRw/CkACgkQRQ2Fs59Psv9WVACgueWFqRDbSfWcMs6UWUoGlc4i iZcAn2zK9Px8lQ0mkYgWTfLk0gCXnnq0 =izwy -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo's future directtion ?
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:54 PM, hasufell hasuf...@gentoo.org wrote: No one would care in such a distributed model if there is one person blocking progress somewhere. They would just move on, regroup around a new overlay and start working there and let that guy/project rot forever. Nobody can block progress under the current model. If you feel otherwise, please point them out so that they can be dealt with. I'm fine with having more support for overlays/etc, but I don't think it is as easy as you're making it out to be. We don't need more authority, we need less... and we need more actual opensource workflow. Our tools, our organizational model and our workflow are ALL ancient. And they don't seem to work very well, do they? Gentoo is already fairly non-authoritative where the main tree is concerned. I'm all for more overlay support, but I doubt it is going to fix the kinds of issues you're bringing up. The problem with java is that nobody wants to work on it. Lots of people want to talk about working on it, but nobody is writing ebuilds. The problem with games is that nobody wants to work on those either. Lots of people like to talk about the games project blocking progress, but now that this has been eliminated, there isn't some flood of new games ebuilds. People love to talk about elitist old-timers blocking progress, but it seems to me that many of the old-timers don't do a whole lot of anything. I think the complaint is really that other people aren't doing the work we want them to do. -- Rich
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo's future directtion ?
On 11/22/2014 11:20 PM, Rich Freeman wrote: On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:54 PM, hasufell hasuf...@gentoo.org wrote: No one would care in such a distributed model if there is one person blocking progress somewhere. They would just move on, regroup around a new overlay and start working there and let that guy/project rot forever. Nobody can block progress under the current model. If you feel otherwise, please point them out so that they can be dealt with. They can block progress and they do. And by saying we allow conflicting ideas in one repository we are even making it worse. The council is a workaround to make the broken project structure not look too bad. We don't need more authority, we need less... and we need more actual opensource workflow. Our tools, our organizational model and our workflow are ALL ancient. And they don't seem to work very well, do they? Gentoo is already fairly non-authoritative where the main tree is concerned. I'm all for more overlay support, but I doubt it is going to fix the kinds of issues you're bringing up. The problem with java is that nobody wants to work on it. Lots of people want to talk about working on it, but nobody is writing ebuilds. The problem with games is that nobody wants to work on those either. Lots of people like to talk about the games project blocking progress, but now that this has been eliminated, there isn't some flood of new games ebuilds. I strongly disagree. I know a fair amount of games overlays where people do work on games ebuilds. They just don't give a sh*t anymore to try to get that stuff into the main tree, because they were alienated long ago. The image of the games team is so bad, that not even gentoo devs bother anymore (except me, uh). Yet neither the council, nor comrel has done anything radical, except giving recommendations, asking for them to elect a new lead, blah blah. In a distributed model this project would just have been abandoned by the community 8 years ago and people would have started a new fresh overlay. Currently this all sucks, because it will conflict with in-tree ebuilds and because we don't have good enough tools for this kind of model. People love to talk about elitist old-timers blocking progress, but it seems to me that many of the old-timers don't do a whole lot of anything. I think the complaint is really that other people aren't doing the work we want them to do. It's not about elitist old-timers, it's about a more dynamic model that has low tolerance for * bugs being open since 8+ years, because no one bothers to review/change stuff (check nethack bug) * territorial behaviour * slacking devs slacking so hard, but not stepping down In addition, this model requires a workflow that is long overdue, including proper VCS like git or mercurial and a review culture. None of this happens on a larger scale. Instead we are stuck with tools like bugzilla for ebuild reviews and push our happy ebuilds to the CVS repository. So now guess again why people don't bother, because: * have to become gentoo devs over a period of 6 months or so, then realize they are stuck with territorial crap, people ignoring each other and have to appeal to the council, comrel or whoever multiple times before something happens? * or they have to write bugs reports on bugzilla, attach ebuilds manually, get a partly review in a timeframe of 9 months if they are lucky, re-push attachments, start again * or they can try to contribute to sunrise which may be simirlarly slow (mind you, I've been a sunrise dev, so we can talk about that if you like) * or they just start their own overlay and stop caring to collaborate with gentoo devs * If they are very lucky, then their favorite project already uses an overlay-workflow (e.g. haskell, science). And those projects usually are so slow with moving their overlay ebuilds into the tree, that it's almost useless doing so. They should just stop and focus on their overlays.
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo's future directtion ?
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 5:44 PM, hasufell hasuf...@gentoo.org wrote: On 11/22/2014 11:20 PM, Rich Freeman wrote: Nobody can block progress under the current model. If you feel otherwise, please point them out so that they can be dealt with. They can block progress and they do. And by saying we allow conflicting ideas in one repository we are even making it worse. The council is a workaround to make the broken project structure not look too bad. What do you do if somebody blocks progress in your overlay structure? You start another one. What do you do if somebody blocks progress in the current Gentoo project structure? You either ask the Council for help, or start another project. You have just as many options under the status quo, and actually more. Now, what you would get is the ability to have more variety in quality standards, since general QA/etc would not apply. I strongly disagree. I know a fair amount of games overlays where people do work on games ebuilds. They just don't give a sh*t anymore to try to get that stuff into the main tree, because they were alienated long ago. Well, then by your argument there is nothing wrong, since they're already in the distributed model. There is nothing I can do about people feeling alienated. If you want to contribute to Gentoo, then do it. If somebody blocks your progress then ask for help. What I can't stand is people moping about their feelings being hurt from umpteen years ago. I can't go back and fix the past. Get over it - contribute or don't. The image of the games team is so bad, that not even gentoo devs bother anymore (except me, uh). Yet neither the council, nor comrel has done anything radical, except giving recommendations, asking for them to elect a new lead, blah blah. The games team has ZERO power over any dev doing anything to any package in the tree. That was the outcome of the most recent Council decision. We didn't disband the team because we thought that having a team focused on games wasn't a bad idea, but so far nobody else seems all that interested so it seems as likely as not that there won't be a games team in the future. How is that not doing something radical? What more do you want us to do? It's not about elitist old-timers, it's about a more dynamic model that has low tolerance for * bugs being open since 8+ years, because no one bothers to review/change stuff (check nethack bug) * territorial behaviour * slacking devs slacking so hard, but not stepping down The reason the nethack bug is still open is because nobody cares enough to fix it. ANYBODY can make themselves a maintainer of Nethack right now and fix the bug. The reason that the Nethack bug is still open is because you apparently care enough about it to post about it, but not enough to fix it. I'm not going to fix it, because I don't use Nethack. The issues you bring up were an issue in the past, and nobody really has any tolerance for it these days. You keep bringing up past issues that have been fixed, which really sounds to me like a demonstration that we're running out of real current issues to fix. If there is somebody blocking progress on something, by all means point it out. However, it needs to be a case where somebody is actually trying to do something, not just complaints about all the great stuff that could get done if somebody cared enough to even try. In addition, this model requires a workflow that is long overdue, including proper VCS like git or mercurial and a review culture. None of this happens on a larger scale. Instead we are stuck with tools like bugzilla for ebuild reviews and push our happy ebuilds to the CVS repository. Sounds great. Looking forward to your contributions to the git migration, which by all indications is just about done. Maybe you could get started on a gerrit front-end or something. So now guess again why people don't bother, because: * have to become gentoo devs over a period of 6 months or so, then realize they are stuck with territorial crap, people ignoring each other and have to appeal to the council, comrel or whoever multiple times before something happens? Most of this stuff is fixed, and every issue that has come up in the last year has been resolved in the course of a single Council meeting. Please cite an example to the contrary. Having attended just about every Council meeting in the last year I can cite plenty of cases where stuff like this was fixed. * or they have to write bugs reports on bugzilla, attach ebuilds manually, get a partly review in a timeframe of 9 months if they are lucky, re-push attachments, start again * or they can try to contribute to sunrise which may be simirlarly slow (mind you, I've been a sunrise dev, so we can talk about that if you like) * or they just start their own overlay and stop caring to collaborate with gentoo devs You realize that the last point is basically your proposed solution. If they don't want
