Re: [gentoo-user] hardware advice for dual-processor set-up on gentoo
On Mon, 12 Sep 2005, Denis wrote: So basically... I would pretty much be buying an already outdated technology if I were to purchase a dual Xeon or a dual Opteron system now? One could say that about any technology you buy ;-) I guess the other advantage is that a good dual Xeon system with 4GB RAM will run me around $3000, whereas a dual Opteron (with dual core) system with 4GB RAM will run me more like $4300. If the Opterons are currently at their memory bandwidth limit, I will have spent the $4300 for nothing, especially since I need the fastest memory integration I can get for my codes. Would I be better buying a dual Xeon system if I needed to buy right now instead of waiting for the bandwidth issue to be resolved? It has to be said: Intel have been completely outmaneuvered by AMD with respect to multicore chips. Intel have been chasing faster clock speeds with larger transister counts while AMD have been pursuing a smarter solution IMHO. I think it will be awhile before Intel starting cranking out decent dual-core chips. Dont forget AMD have quad-core chips in the pipeline too so they will be maintaining their lead for awhile. As far as multicore support in boards go, last time I looked, Tyan seemed to be in the lead with this. They have a quad-cpu board (effectively 8 cores when using dual-core chips - each chip has its own memory slots with up to 4 or 8Gb per CPU). Tyan also now have a way of connecting two quad-cpu boards together allowing you to build a 16-core Opteron system. You could always buy a quad-core board and just keep adding CPU's to upgrade and eventually add the second board when you need more CPU ;-) -- -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] hardware advice for dual-processor set-up on gentoo
On 9/12/05, Bob Sanders [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Intel's compiler fairly cheap - approx. $600.Free for non-commericalhome use. This is the first time I heard of intel compilers and I am using dual 3.2 GHz irwindales with 1 mb cache each and 2 GB of ram. Is there any advantage to using these compilers over GCC? What performance gain can I expect? And more on topic: the dual 3.2 GHz irwindales run like a charm. I think that installing my entire system from stage 1 to full gnome took approximately 5 hours in compile time.
Re: [gentoo-user] hardware advice for dual-processor set-up on gentoo
After a google search, it seems like the ICC compiler compiles faster and runs certain programs better. Gentoo has a package, can anyone say if the ICC compiler has any issues compiling common packages such as the gentoo base packages, gnome, or kde?
Re: [gentoo-user] hardware advice for dual-processor set-up on gentoo
On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 19:27:08 -0400 - - [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is the first time I heard of intel compilers and I am using dual 3.2GHz irwindales with 1 mb cache each and 2 GB of ram. Is there any advantage to using these compilers over GCC? What performance gain can I expect? It depends. Straight compiles with no-optimization has shown them to be faster in some case and slower in others. If you have a specific application set that you can actually hand code a few things, the Intel compilers will take advantage of most of the features, gcc doesn't optimize. Some folks have gone with the Intel compilers for the entire system, but I've not heard of any reported results from their efforts. You can go over the SpecOrg and look at the results of the INT/FP results. All the Intel results are with the Intel compilers. Look at the test make up - which programs they used for testing, and see if it matches your workload. Then run the same thing on your currect system to see if it comes close or wildly different. Bob - -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] hardware advice for dual-processor set-up on gentoo
I read AnandTech. And many other reviews by now. But since I've been out of hardware buying venture for a long time, I figured I'd read up on the specs directly from the manufacturers' websites first and then the reviews. I can't say I am handy with different relationships between front size bus speeds, system clock, and memory transfer rates. The point that Bob brought up about memory bus limitations was very specific and only appeared in a couple reviews that I could locate when I knew what to look for. The general spirit seems to proclaim AMD ahead of the game, leaving Intel in the dust. However, there are things where Intel is still ahead - such as areas of specialized scientific computing, for example. For example, I can get a 4-thread capability much cheaper from Intel than from AMD, thanks to their much-criticized HyperThreading technology. Hyperthreading has been excellent for my particular application of computing. So, if I can build a good Intel workstation with will give me 4 threads for around $2,000 instead of a similar AMD workstation with 4 threads for over $3,500 - then I'd rather stick to Intel on my budget. At least for now. Perhaps, in a year or so, I'll migrate to AMD if Intel hasn't come up with something suitable for my computing needs for a reasonable price. I am sure many people will disagree with what I am saying here, and I am not trying to start a flame war over preferences, but in the case of highly multithreaded computing in my case, this solution seems to make sense right now. For people with less specific needs, a dual AMD box with single-core processors would probably make more sense on the same budget. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] hardware advice for dual-processor set-up on gentoo
On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 23:47:11 -0500 Denis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess the other advantage is that a good dual Xeon system with 4GB RAM will run me around $3000, whereas a dual Opteron (with dual core) system with 4GB RAM will run me more like $4300. If the Opterons are currently at their memory bandwidth limit, I will have spent the $4300 for nothing, especially since I need the fastest memory integration I can get for my codes. Would I be better buying a dual Xeon system if I needed to buy right now instead of waiting for the bandwidth issue to be resolved? Careful with the dual Xeon - Intel has numerous chipsets. Some better than the other. Unless you spend hours studying the difference, you may end with much older tech for your money. Also, you might be better off now with a 2P Opteron, single core, than an Intel setup. It's less expensive. And, as you're crunching a lot of numbers, the Opteron's faster throughput in the FPU may offset and bandwidth limitation. Only you can tell if your app is more cpu/fpu bound or more memory bound. You might want to emerge - app-admin/sysstat, and characterize your app's system usage and use that to decide which arch features are important to you. Another thing to consider - Intel shares the memory/FSB. Each Opteron has access to a full 6.4 GB/s memory bandwidth, as long as the data set remains with that cpu. Should the data set or data have to come from a non-local memory bank, there will be a delay. So even with a slower memory bus, the Opteron could be faster overall. It depends on what resources your app uses. Bob - -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-user] hardware advice for dual-processor set-up on gentoo
Folks, I am currently running Gentoo on a dual-processor machine that has 2 Intel Xeons with hyperthreading on a Tyan board, with 2GB of RDRAM. Some 3 years ago when I bought this machine, it was a marvel, and it still is a solid computational workhorse for me, doing things like Monte Carlo and Finite Element calculations. Because of hyperthreading, there are 4 logical processors, which gives me a good multi-tasking ability. I can run 3 or 4 Monte Carlo tasks at the same time and not get any noticeable slow-down compared to running only one Monte Carlo task. That has been indispensable in my productivity. Now, I am about to purchase a new machine, but I'd like to solicit some advice first, so I can get the most bang for the buck. The main thing is, I still need to have those 4 logical processors to maintain my productivity. So that gives me two choices: - 2 64-bit Irwindale Xeons (EM64T) with Hyperthreading, 2MB L2 Cache, 800 MHZ FSB, somewhere in 3.4-3.8 GHz range - 2 64-bit AMD Dual-Core Opterons somewhere in the 265-275 range With my need for parallel execution of several single-thread Monte Carlo and Finite Element tasks, what would be the pros and cons in considering the Xeons and Opterons? I looked at several benchmarks, and the Opterons seem to be leading the way significantly in pretty much every category except things like Matrix multiplications (because of vectoring?)... Is that the general impression of folks with experience on these systems running Linux? What would be some issues and software limitations for me in trying to get the AMD Opterons running on Gentoo? And would I use an x86 platform or an AMD64 platform? Thanks! Denis -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] hardware advice for dual-processor set-up on gentoo
On Monday 12 September 2005 21:40, Denis wrote: With my need for parallel execution of several single-thread Monte Carlo and Finite Element tasks, what would be the pros and cons in considering the Xeons and Opterons? Opterons everytime. Under certain circumstances HT can make the CPU *slower*, and at best only adds around a 20% performance boost. A dual core CPU *is* two CPUs, with single digit % performance drop over 2 full CPUs. What would be some issues and software limitations for me in trying to get the AMD Opterons running on Gentoo? And would I use an x86 platform or an AMD64 platform? Issues? Almost exactly nil. AMD64 support is excellent, if a little smaller and perhaps the tiniest bit behind, the x86 profile. -- Mike Williams -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] hardware advice for dual-processor set-up on gentoo
On Monday 12 September 2005 15:40, Denis wrote: Folks, I am currently running Gentoo on a dual-processor machine that has 2 Intel Xeons with hyperthreading on a Tyan board, with 2GB of RDRAM. Some 3 years ago when I bought this machine, it was a marvel, and it still is a solid computational workhorse for me, doing things like Monte Carlo and Finite Element calculations. Because of hyperthreading, there are 4 logical processors, which gives me a good multi-tasking ability. I can run 3 or 4 Monte Carlo tasks at the same time and not get any noticeable slow-down compared to running only one Monte Carlo task. That has been indispensable in my productivity. Now, I am about to purchase a new machine, but I'd like to solicit some advice first, so I can get the most bang for the buck. The main thing is, I still need to have those 4 logical processors to maintain my productivity. So that gives me two choices: - 2 64-bit Irwindale Xeons (EM64T) with Hyperthreading, 2MB L2 Cache, 800 MHZ FSB, somewhere in 3.4-3.8 GHz range - 2 64-bit AMD Dual-Core Opterons somewhere in the 265-275 range With my need for parallel execution of several single-thread Monte Carlo and Finite Element tasks, what would be the pros and cons in considering the Xeons and Opterons? I looked at several benchmarks, and the Opterons seem to be leading the way significantly in pretty much every category except things like Matrix multiplications (because of vectoring?)... Is that the general impression of folks with experience on these systems running Linux? What would be some issues and software limitations for me in trying to get the AMD Opterons running on Gentoo? And would I use an x86 platform or an AMD64 platform? Thanks! Denis I don't know the benchmarks, but I DO know that I got a 64-bit gentoo system running on a dual-core athlon 4400. It's a single-dual-core cpu, using a Tyan Tomkat k8e board (only one cpu slot on the board). There were no problems or gotchas I could tell. It's got 4 gigs of ram and screams (at least on kernel compiles and suchhaven't benchmarked mysql on it yet). -- John Jolet Your On-Demand IT Department 512-762-0729 www.jolet.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] hardware advice for dual-processor set-up on gentoo
I was leaning toward the Opterons myself. While we're on the topic of hardware, has anyone here used Tyan S2895 Thunder K8WE? I understand it's an NVIDIA-based high-end board that supports dual Opterons. I've always liked Tyan's products, as well as NVIDIA's, so I would be happy with such a choice... But I am curious to hear about people's experiences with or what they heard (good and bad) about this particular board... -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] hardware advice for dual-processor set-up on gentoo
Bob, Thanks for that detailed write-up. I don't pretend to have any understanding of the architecture of the new dual-core Opterons, but I did want to clarify a couple things... I was under the impression that the Opterons didn't have the same type of a NorthBridge bottleneck that Intel processors experience and were thus quite a bit more efficient in the way they integrate with RAM and themselves!... In fact, from reading the numbers posted on the AMD website comparing FSB and memory bandwidth, the numbers for the Opteron were much superior to those for Intel. Reading what you wrote would make me think that the numbers AMD published were some kind of a marketing ploy?? The numbers I am referring to are in this PDF: http://multicore2.amd.com/Products/CompetitiveComparisons/2P_Server_Comparison.pdf Also, I read on more than one occasion that the DDR2-400 and DDR2-533 suffer from latency issues and perform more sluggishly than their DDR1 counterparts as of right now.. I mean, out of most benchmarks I've read, it looked like an Opteron comes out on top compared to the Irwindale Xeons (even with their 2MB L2 cache) including floating-point arithmetic, only with the exception of matrix multiplication... Also, it appears that the dual-core Opterons have true multithreading as opposed to Intel's seemingly superficial Hyperthreading? I've been using Intel-only products so far in my computer experiences, and this is the first time I am considering buying a non-Intel system, so I want to make sure I understand enough about both processors to make an educated decision. You mentioned compilers... Do you HAVE to use those instead of the standard GCC stuff? I've never used anything but GCC before for compiling things. Thanks! -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] hardware advice for dual-processor set-up on gentoo
Ok, I felt compelled to find more info on the issue that Bob raised with the memory bandwidth limitation on the Opterons, and here is an excerpt from an article on anandtech.com on this issue: The one limitation that both AMD and Intel have is bandwidth. In order to maintain compatibility with present day Socket-940 and Socket-939 motherboards, AMD could not increase the pincount of their dual core processors. The benefit is that AMD's dual core CPUs will work in almost all Socket-940 and Socket-939 motherboards (more on this later), but the downside is that the memory bus remains unchanged at 128-bits wide and supports a maximum memory speed of DDR400. So, while single core Athlon 64 and Opteron CPUs get a full 6.4GB/s of memory bandwidth, today's dual core CPUs are given the same memory bandwidth to share among two cores instead of one. AMD's solution to the problem will come in the form of DDR2 and a new socket down the road, but for now there's no getting around the memory bandwidth limitations. Intel is actually in a better position from a memory bandwidth standpoint. At this point, their chipsets provide more memory bandwidth than what a single core needs with their dual channel DDR2-667 controller. The problem is that the Intel dual core CPUs still run on a 64-bit wide 800MHz FSB, which makes Intel's problem more of a FSB bandwidth limitation than a memory bandwidth limitation. So basically... I would pretty much be buying an already outdated technology if I were to purchase a dual Xeon or a dual Opteron system now? I guess the other advantage is that a good dual Xeon system with 4GB RAM will run me around $3000, whereas a dual Opteron (with dual core) system with 4GB RAM will run me more like $4300. If the Opterons are currently at their memory bandwidth limit, I will have spent the $4300 for nothing, especially since I need the fastest memory integration I can get for my codes. Would I be better buying a dual Xeon system if I needed to buy right now instead of waiting for the bandwidth issue to be resolved? -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
