Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Local mail server
On 8/7/20 2:06 PM, james wrote: Here is an short read on the acceptance and usage of IPv6: https://ungleich.ch/u/blog/2020-the-year-of-ipv6/ So, yes I am working on using IPv6, with my RV/mobile-lab. I think that IPv6 is a good thing. But I would be remis to not say that IPv6 is somewhat of a black sheep in the email administrators community. You still effectively must have IPv4 connectivity to your email server, lest a non-trivial percentage of email fail to flow. I also know of a number of email administrators that are specifically dragging their feet regarding IPv6 because there hasn't yet been critical mass use of IPv6 /for/ /email/. In fact, some of the early IPv6 adopters for email are spammers. So some administrators stim this tide by being exclusively IPv4. I think dual stack for email servers is great. (Deal with the spam.) But being exclusively IPv6 on an email server is going to be problematic. I'm focusing on email servers because that's what this thread had largely been about. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Local mail server
On 8/1/20 2:45 PM, Grant Taylor wrote: On 7/31/20 1:54 PM, Grant Edwards wrote: If I had a week with nothing to do, I'd love to try to get something like that working You don't need a week.� You don't even need a day.� You can probably have a test tunnel working (on your computer) in less than an hour. Then maybe a few more hours to get it to work on your existing equipment (router) robustly and automatically on reboot. I encourage you to spend that initial hour.� I think� you will find that will be time well spent. Hurricane Electric does have something else that will take more time, maybe a few minutes a day over a month or so.� Their IPv6 training program (I last looked a number of years ago) is a good introduction to IPv6 in general.� Once you complete it, they'll even send you a shirt as a nice perk. Note:� H.E. IPv6 training is independent and not required for their IPv6-in-IPv4 tunnel service. but, I assume you need a static IPv4 address. Nope.� Not really. You do need a predictable IPv4 address.� I'm using a H.E. tunnel on a sticky IP (DHCP with long lease and renewals) perfectly fine. If your IP does change, you just need to update the tunnel or create a new one to replace the old one.� This is all manged through their web interface. Here is an short read on the acceptance and usage of IPv6: https://ungleich.ch/u/blog/2020-the-year-of-ipv6/ So, yes I am working on using IPv6, with my RV/mobile-lab. hth, Jams
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Local mail server
On 8/1/20 1:53 PM, antlists wrote: That's one of the good things about the UK scene. In theory, and mostly in practice, the infrastructure (ie copper, fibre) is provided by a company which is not allowed to provide the service over it, so a mom-n-pop ISP can supposedly rent the link just as easily as a big ISP. For a long time, the incumbent telephone carrier was required to allow other companies to access the DSL network and provide service. I've not kept up with the laws and have no idea of the current state. When we move I'll almost certainly move to Andrews and Arnold, who are exactly that mom-n-pop setup that are run by a bunch of engineers, as opposed to accountants. :-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Local mail server
On 8/1/20 5:36 PM, Grant Edwards wrote: Statically entered in the DHCP server doesn't count as static? Not to the client computer that's running the DHCP client. The computer is still configured to use a dynamic method to acquire it's IP address. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Local mail server
On 01/08/2020 19:52, Grant Taylor wrote: On 7/31/20 2:01 PM, Grant Edwards wrote: There may be half way decent ISPs in the US, but I haven't seen one in over 20 years since the last one I was aware of stopped dealing with residential customers. They were a victem of the "race to the bottom" when not enough residential customers were willing to pay $10 per month over what Comcast or US-West was charging for half-assed, crippled internet access). I think there is probably a good correlation between size and desire to be good and provide service. I've found that smaller ISPs (who actually try as opposed to cheating people) tend to be better. Sadly, many of these Mom & Pop type ISPs were consumed during the aptly described race to the bottom. :-( I still do consulting work with a small M ISP in my home town and I have a small municipal ISP where I am now. Both are quite good in many regards. Unfortunately, neither of them offer IPv6. That's one of the good things about the UK scene. In theory, and mostly in practice, the infrastructure (ie copper, fibre) is provided by a company which is not allowed to provide the service over it, so a mom-n-pop ISP can supposedly rent the link just as easily as a big ISP. When we move I'll almost certainly move to Andrews and Arnold, who are exactly that mom-n-pop setup that are run by a bunch of engineers, as opposed to accountants. Cheers, Wol
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Local mail server
On 01/08/2020 19:48, Grant Taylor wrote: On 7/31/20 2:05 PM, Grant Edwards wrote: Nit: DHCPv6 can be (and usually is) dynamic, but it doesn't have to be. It's entirely possible to have a static IP address that your OS (or firewall/router) acquires via DHCPv6 (or v4). [I set up stuff like that all the time.] Counter Nit: That's still acquiring an address via /Dynamic/ Host Configuration Protocol (v6). It /is/ a /dynamic/ process. Static IP address has some very specific meaning when it comes to configuring TCP/IP stacks. Specifically that you enter the address to be used, and it doesn't change until someone changes it in the configuration. Either an IP address is statically entered -or- it's dynamic. The fact that it's returning the same, possibly predictable, address is independent of the fact that it's a /dynamic/ process. Counter counter nit: You may be *acquiring* it dynamically, but you can enter the address to be used into DHCP, and then it doesn't change until someone changes it in the configuration. That was my IPv4 in the Demon days - DHCP was *guaranteed* to *always* return the same address. So either I retrieved it via DHCP from Demon, or I hard coded it into my computer, it didn't matter. Cheers, Wol
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Local mail server
On 7/31/20 2:01 PM, Grant Edwards wrote: There may be half way decent ISPs in the US, but I haven't seen one in over 20 years since the last one I was aware of stopped dealing with residential customers. They were a victem of the "race to the bottom" when not enough residential customers were willing to pay $10 per month over what Comcast or US-West was charging for half-assed, crippled internet access). I think there is probably a good correlation between size and desire to be good and provide service. I've found that smaller ISPs (who actually try as opposed to cheating people) tend to be better. Sadly, many of these Mom & Pop type ISPs were consumed during the aptly described race to the bottom. :-( I still do consulting work with a small M ISP in my home town and I have a small municipal ISP where I am now. Both are quite good in many regards. Unfortunately, neither of them offer IPv6. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Local mail server
On 7/31/20 2:05 PM, Grant Edwards wrote: Nit: DHCPv6 can be (and usually is) dynamic, but it doesn't have to be. It's entirely possible to have a static IP address that your OS (or firewall/router) acquires via DHCPv6 (or v4). [I set up stuff like that all the time.] Counter Nit: That's still acquiring an address via /Dynamic/ Host Configuration Protocol (v6). It /is/ a /dynamic/ process. Static IP address has some very specific meaning when it comes to configuring TCP/IP stacks. Specifically that you enter the address to be used, and it doesn't change until someone changes it in the configuration. Either an IP address is statically entered -or- it's dynamic. The fact that it's returning the same, possibly predictable, address is independent of the fact that it's a /dynamic/ process. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Local mail server
On 7/31/20 1:54 PM, Grant Edwards wrote: If I had a week with nothing to do, I'd love to try to get something like that working You don't need a week. You don't even need a day. You can probably have a test tunnel working (on your computer) in less than an hour. Then maybe a few more hours to get it to work on your existing equipment (router) robustly and automatically on reboot. I encourage you to spend that initial hour. I think you will find that will be time well spent. Hurricane Electric does have something else that will take more time, maybe a few minutes a day over a month or so. Their IPv6 training program (I last looked a number of years ago) is a good introduction to IPv6 in general. Once you complete it, they'll even send you a shirt as a nice perk. Note: H.E. IPv6 training is independent and not required for their IPv6-in-IPv4 tunnel service. but, I assume you need a static IPv4 address. Nope. Not really. You do need a predictable IPv4 address. I'm using a H.E. tunnel on a sticky IP (DHCP with long lease and renewals) perfectly fine. If your IP does change, you just need to update the tunnel or create a new one to replace the old one. This is all manged through their web interface. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Local mail server
On 7/30/20 4:38 PM, Ralph Seichter wrote: * Grant Edwards: Pricing is based on what people are willing to pay. People are willing to pay extra for a static IPv6 address, therefore static IPv6 addresses cost extra. Somewhere, and some people. I'd be interested to hear from users who still need to pay extra for IPv6. Here in Germany IPv6 usually comes at not extra cost (I write "usually" because I don't know every single ISP here; some only operate in a particular city.) -Ralph For where I am, if you need a static IPv4 address (which I do) IPv6 is not available at all from my ISP... it's not a matter of paying. Dan
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Local mail server
On 7/30/20 5:38 PM, Ralph Seichter wrote: I'd be interested to hear from users who still need to pay extra for IPv6. I'd be willing, if not happy, to pay a reasonable monthly fee to be able to get native IPv6 from my ISP. But it's 2020 and my ISP doesn't support IPv6 at all. :-( As such, I use a tunnel for IPv6. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Local mail server
On 7/29/20 1:28 PM, Grant Edwards wrote: I don't know what most ISPs are doing. I couldn't get IPv6 via Comcast (or whatever they're called this week) working with OpenWRT (probably my fault, and I didn't really need it). So I never figured out if the IPv6 address I was getting was static or not. Ya That was probably a DHCPv6 for outside vs DHCPv6 Provider Delegation (PD) issue. I remember running into that with Comcast. I think for a while, they were mutually exclusive on Comcast. There is DHPCv6 (I've implemented it), but I have no idea if anybody actually uses it. Even if they are using DHCPv6, they can be using it to hand out static addresses. I've seen DHCPv6 used many times. It can be stateless (in combination with SLAAC to manage the address) or stateful (where DHCPv6 manages the address). Either way, there is a LOT more information that can be specified with DHCPv6 that simple SLAAC doesn't provide. For a long time you couldn't dynamically determine DNS server IP addresses without DHCPv6 or static configuration. The assumption always seemed to be that switching to IPv6 meant the end of NAT That's what the IPv6 Zealots want you to think. and the end of dynamic addresses. Nope, not at all. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Local mail server
On 7/29/20 9:41 AM, Peter Humphrey wrote: Aren't all IPv6 addresses static? No. SLAAC and DHCPv6 are as dynamic as can be. Static is certainly an option. But I see SLAAC and DHCPv6 used frequently. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Local mail server
* Grant Edwards: > Pricing is based on what people are willing to pay. People are willing > to pay extra for a static IPv6 address, therefore static IPv6 > addresses cost extra. Somewhere, and some people. I'd be interested to hear from users who still need to pay extra for IPv6. Here in Germany IPv6 usually comes at not extra cost (I write "usually" because I don't know every single ISP here; some only operate in a particular city.) -Ralph
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Local mail server
On Wednesday, 29 July 2020 16:55:27 BST antlists wrote: > I think there's static, and there's effectively static. > > If your router is running 24/7, then the IP won't change even if it's > DHCP. But your router only needs to be switched off or otherwise off the > network for the TTL (time to live), and DHCP will assign you a different > IP when it comes back. My ISP confirms that my addresses are static. Both IPv4 and IPv6. I don't pay extra for static addresses, though I did have to request a v4 one some years ago to avoid being blocked from this mail list. > That's server-side configuration, so if the ISP doesn't elicitly > allocate you an address in their DHCP setup, what you've got is > effectively static not really static. > > But it really should be so damn simple - take the ISP's network address, > add the last three octets of the customer's router or something like > that, and there's the customer's network v6 assigned to the customer's > router. One fixed address that won't change unless the customer changes > router or ISP. I don't recognise anything like that pattern in my addresses. > I need to learn how v6 works ... :-) Me too. I thought I was set up right, but I now doubt it. -- Regards, Peter.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Local mail server
On 29/07/2020 16:41, Peter Humphrey wrote: On Wednesday, 29 July 2020 13:59:11 BST Grant Edwards wrote: Pricing isn't based on cost. Pricing is based on what people are willing to pay. People are willing to pay extra for a static IPv6 address, therefore static IPv6 addresses cost extra. Aren't all IPv6 addresses static? Mine certainly are. I think there's static, and there's effectively static. If your router is running 24/7, then the IP won't change even if it's DHCP. But your router only needs to be switched off or otherwise off the network for the TTL (time to live), and DHCP will assign you a different IP when it comes back. That's server-side configuration, so if the ISP doesn't elicitly allocate you an address in their DHCP setup, what you've got is effectively static not really static. But it really should be so damn simple - take the ISP's network address, add the last three octets of the customer's router or something like that, and there's the customer's network v6 assigned to the customer's router. One fixed address that won't change unless the customer changes router or ISP. I need to learn how v6 works ... :-) Cheers, Wol
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Local mail server
On Wednesday, 29 July 2020 13:59:11 BST Grant Edwards wrote: > Pricing isn't based on cost. Pricing is based on what people are > willing to pay. People are willing to pay extra for a static IPv6 > address, therefore static IPv6 addresses cost extra. Aren't all IPv6 addresses static? Mine certainly are. -- Regards, Peter.
