Re: [Gimp-developer] [Fwd: Some suggestions for the plug-in registry]
On 8/26/05, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Nathan Summers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 2.3 is a development version with no API guarantees whatsoever. The API is constantly changing and noone should be developing any plug-ins for it. If you have such a closed Gimp Club attitude, why make developer releases at all? After all, all the members of the Gimp Club have cvs accounts. One of the most important reasons that we have preview releases is so that when 2.4 is released, third-party plugins are already available for it. It's abundantly obvious that 2.3 is a developer edition, with all that entails, and both users and plugin developers are aware of the fact that things can break, but that doesn't mean that it's counterproductive to track development and to test the new features. Would you prefer that serious problems in newly added plug-in apis not be discovered until after they are frozen? The only reason I don't want to see a 2.3 version in a plug-in registry is that doesn't seem to make much sense. After all any new API could change with the next new minor 2.3 release. The version listed in the registry would also have to include the micro version number then. All plugins will eventually go obsolete, true, regardless of what versions they compile against. Including the point release is easy enough. Chances are also pretty good that a plugin that compiles against 7.5.15 will compile against 7.5.17 even if they are both development versions. Caveat compilor, but I would be willing to give it a go, especially if it were a plugin I had a distinct need for. I am deliberately ignoring the hostile attitude of your mail. We both know very well that we don't like each other. There's no point in continuing this in public. Feel free to flame me in private mail. I'm sorry if you don't like me, but I like you just fine. Would you honestly want me to not speak up when you say something that's not in GIMP's best interests? If I wanted to be hostile, I would have been much, much more hostile. I would have been more subtle, but subtly is often lost on you. So no, I will say what I think is best for the GIMP project, and I will do so publicly. If you think I disagree with everything you do, you're wrong. You have good judgement on technical matters, and I respect pretty much all the decisions you've made in that area. (The few I haven't are well-documented.) You can't possibly want me to me too every good decision you make like some AOLer. :) But realize that you are not perfect, and when I do speak up, it's because I want GIMP to be the best it can be. I'm not perfect either, and I'm not always right, but I truly believe that by putting our heads together, we can all come to a mutually-agreed conclusion on what is best. GIMP used to be run by that principle, and it's my personal belief that that system can work better than any personal dictatorship ever could. Right now one of the most serious problems that GIMP has is a lack of active developers. I will be blunt (frank, not hostile, and only because such frankness is necessary.) The reason for this is that GIMP development has become dysfunctional, and the original mail I responded to was symptomatic of this dysfunction. Like any good dysfunction, there are several interrelated parts. One part is that a small but vocal minority of the community are quite hostilely impatient with practically any newcomer who tries to learn the ropes, and as a result, almost all of them get driven away. There were serious problems with the first patch I ever submitted to a software project. If I had gotten the treatment that most newcomers who haven't been magically endowed with the all the right skills now get here, I'd probably be working for Microsoft and spending my free time blogging about how the open source zealots don't understand the real world. Instead, I got a patient reply explaining how exactly how to submit my changes in the most suitable form, and I got very prominent mention in the release notes of the next version. Unsurprisingly, I continued to contribute to that and later to other projects. The unwillingness to mentor potential new developers, combined with the fact that practically everyone who was willing to speak up if they didn't like a particular decision have left in disgust at your tendency to turn any disagreement into a personal matter, as you just tried to here, has resulted in a very unhealthy environment. For example, I used to spend all of my free time hacking gimp, but that is no longer the case, and the only reason for this is that it's not worth it for me to fight for every single nontrivial change or addition that I make, especially since no one is left who will back me if I don't get time to complete it. I am far from the only contributor that feels this way. I might knock off a low-hanging feature or bug if I'm bored or it scratches a personal itch, but in
Re: [Gimp-developer] authors.xml, volunteer needed
Based on ChangeLog* po*/ChangeLog: Index: authors.xml === RCS file: /cvs/gnome/gimp/authors.xml,v retrieving revision 1.6 diff -u -0 -r1.6 authors.xml --- authors.xml 20 Aug 2005 02:28:29 - 1.6 +++ authors.xml 27 Aug 2005 09:48:39 - @@ -26 +26 @@ - contributor role=authorRobert Brady/contributor + contributor role=documenterRobert Brady/contributor @@ -30 +30 @@ - contributor role=authorCarey Bunks/contributor + contributor role=documenterCarey Bunks/contributor @@ -38 +38 @@ - contributor role=authorKenneth Christiansen/contributor + contributor role=documenterKenneth Christiansen/contributor @@ -48 +48 @@ - contributor role=authorGert Dewit/contributor + contributor role=documenterGert Dewit/contributor @@ -58 +58 @@ - contributor role=authorValek Filippov/contributor + contributor role=documenterValek Filippov/contributor @@ -64 +64 @@ - contributor role=authorSami Gerdt/contributor + contributor role=documenterSami Gerdt/contributor @@ -76,2 +76,2 @@ - contributor role=authorHenrik Hansen/contributor - contributor role=authorVille Hautamäki/contributor + contributor role=documenterHenrik Hansen/contributor + contributor role=documenterVille Hautamäki/contributor @@ -85 +85 @@ - contributor role=authorAndreas Hyden/contributor + contributor role=documenterAndreas Hyden/contributor @@ -87 +87 @@ - contributor role=authorKrzysztof Jakubowski/contributor + contributor role=documenterKrzysztof Jakubowski/contributor @@ -90 +90 @@ - contributor role=authorFellmann Joaquim/contributor + contributor role=documenterFellmann Joaquim/contributor @@ -127 +127 @@ - contributor role=authorDaniele Medri/contributor + contributor role=documenterDaniele Medri/contributor @@ -130 +130 @@ - contributor role=authorJames Mitchell/contributor + contributor role=documenterJames Mitchell/contributor @@ -135,2 +135,2 @@ - contributor role=authorYukihiro Nakai/contributor - contributor role=authorSung-Hyun Nam/contributor + contributor role=documenterYukihiro Nakai/contributor + contributor role=documenterSung-Hyun Nam/contributor @@ -138 +138 @@ - contributor role=authorFelix Natter/contributor + contributor role=documenterFelix Natter/contributor @@ -153 +153 @@ - contributor role=authorSergey Panov/contributor + contributor role=documenterSergey Panov/contributor @@ -158 +158 @@ - contributor role=authorArtur Polaczynski/contributor + contributor role=documenterArtur Polaczynski/contributor @@ -162 +162 @@ - contributor role=authorVincent Renardias/contributor + contributor role=documenterVincent Renardias/contributor @@ -169 +169 @@ - contributor role=authorPablo Saratxaga/contributor + contributor role=documenterPablo Saratxaga/contributor @@ -182 +182 @@ - contributor role=authorCarol Spears/contributor + contributor role=artistCarol Spears/contributor @@ -187 +187 @@ - contributor role=authorYuri Syrota/contributor + contributor role=documenterYuri Syrota/contributor The following names I couldn't find in the ChangeLogs, somebody else could grep through the mailint list archives. My apologies if I have missed someone obvious whom I should know by name. Karl-Johan Andersson John Beale Marc Bless Edward Blevins Reagan Blundell Xavier Bouchoux Roberto Boyd Brent Burton Francisco Bustamante Albert Cahalan Sean Cier Ed Connel Brian Degenhardt Scott Draves Daniel Dunbar Misha Dynin Morton Eriksen David Forsyth Jochen Friedrich Jim Geuther Graeme Gill Heiko Goller Marcelo de Gomensoro Malheiros Michael Hammel Jan HubiÄka Simon Janes Andrew Kieschnick Philipp Klaus Karl La Rocca Laramie Leavitt Elliot Lee Wing Tung Leung Ingo Lütkebohle Ed Mackey Ian Main Torsten Martinsen Hirotsuna Mizuno Balazs Nagy Stephen Robert Norris Tim Newsome Erik Nygren Thom van Os Mike Phillips Jens Restemeier Daniel Risacher James Robinson Tim Rowley Mike Schaeffer John Schlag Norbert Schmitz Thorsten Schnier Tracy Scott Aaron Sherman Daniel Skarda Mike Sweet Michael Taylor Ian Tester James Wang Kris Wehner Nigel Wetten --tml ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [Fwd: Some suggestions for the plug-in registry]
Hi, I am not going to respond on your mail in detail, mainly for lack of time. Lots of good points being made and taken. However I would like to state that I am not at all unwilling to mentor new developers. I also think that our (and that includes mine) attitude towards new ideas and requests for changes has become a lot better over the last years. You are right that we are lacking active developers but we gained quite a few new ones recently and I am not sure if they receive GIMP development as bad as you put it. Quite a few people are rather enthusiastic about it and I would love to have more time to help them get into it. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [Fwd: Some suggestions for the plug-in registry]
On 8/26/05, Nathan Summers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 8/26/05, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, michael chang [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 1. Make it possible to indicate that a plug-in requires GIMP 2.2 2.3, and 2.4 options would be nice here too, I suppose. And also, change the list of links of types to a drop down box, maybe? (Dunno.) 2.3 is a development version with no API guarantees whatsoever. The API is constantly changing and noone should be developing any plug-ins for it. If you have such a closed Gimp Club attitude, why make developer releases at all? After all, all the members of the Gimp Club have cvs accounts. One of the most important reasons that we have preview releases is so that when 2.4 is released, third-party plugins are already available for it. It's abundantly obvious that 2.3 is a developer edition, with all that entails, and both users and plugin developers are aware of the fact that things can break, but that doesn't mean that it's counterproductive to track development and to test the new features. Would you prefer that serious problems in newly added plug-in apis not be discovered until after they are frozen? Oh pah, stop arguing, I wasn't intending to get you guys angry. Geez. It was a suggestion. If you don't like it, that's perfectly fine -- but adding them now would prevent us having to go and bug Mr. Web Developer again when 2.4 is released. (If he has to add all plugins manually at the moment, then there isn't much point, but if it's semi-automated or automated, adding them now but placing some sort of consensus not to put things there works too.) If it helps, why not have a (2.3/beta) or (current open beta) section, and then wipe it when 2.4 is released? Obviously, if you don't like it, that's fine... Since 2.3 cvs contains a plugin that was originally maintained separately, and GIMP was developed against gtk 1.3 long before API freeze, it's obvious that you already know this, which makes me ask the question: why did you say this in the first place? Seriously, it served no other purpose than discouraging people from testing the 2.3 series. GIMP isn't exactly overwhelmed with volunteers. We should be doing everything we can to encourage more people to try out 2.3, and more people to be testing its new features. Yes, that even includes those features that have to be accessed programmatically. Anyone who is capible of developing a plugin against 2.3 is capible of fixing any breakage if we change a non-frozen API. And 2.4 shouldn't be added before the 2.4 release. That's a matter of taste. After all, if 2.4 is backwards compatible with 2.0 plugins, there are a ton of plugins that are already 2.4 compatible. What's not a matter of taste is that plug-ins shouldn't be marked as 2.4 compatible if they use non-frozen APIs. After the API is frozen is a different matter. I presume that this statement is made assuming 2.4 doesn't become 3.0... -- ~Mike - Just my two cents - No man is an island, and no man is unable. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [Fwd: Some suggestions for the plug-in registry]
On 8/27/05, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I am not going to respond on your mail in detail, mainly for lack of time. Lots of good points being made and taken. However I would like Time is always an important issue, and a lack of it may cause curtness. It'd be nice if everyone always took this into consideration, but sometimes we forget from time to time. Reminders are sometimes necessary, and this one was well placed. to state that I am not at all unwilling to mentor new developers. I That is very reassuring, yes. also think that our (and that includes mine) attitude towards new ideas and requests for changes has become a lot better over the last years. You are right that we are lacking active developers but we Indeed. gained quite a few new ones recently and I am not sure if they receive GIMP development as bad as you put it. Quite a few people are rather enthusiastic about it and I would love to have more time to help them get into it. Hopefully, so would everyone else... ^_^ -- ~Mike - Just my two cents - No man is an island, and no man is unable. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] authors.xml, volunteer needed
On 8/27/05, Tor Lillqvist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The following names I couldn't find in the ChangeLogs, somebody else could grep through the mailint list archives. My apologies if I have missed someone obvious whom I should know by name. Thom van Os He did the selective gaussian blur plugin, and I think I've seen the name in other places as well. But he definately qualifies as author. Rockwalrus ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] authors.xml, volunteer needed
On Sat, Aug 27, 2005 at 12:52:17PM +0300, Tor Lillqvist wrote: i just cut a lot of work you did off from this reply. thank you for that :) The following names I couldn't find in the ChangeLogs, somebody else could grep through the mailint list archives. My apologies if I have missed someone obvious whom I should know by name. Marc Bless without knowing what this person did, i wonder if he could fix gimp-perl? Francisco Bustamante this gentleman is known as bit on #gimp. i am fairly certain he contributed something in the 1.1 version. at any rate, the gimp news guy (at the time) pasted something from his irc log from way back. it was the people who were joined on the irc at a time so far into the bowells of the last century -- i cannot remember the date of the paste let alone the date the paste was from. bit was there with spencer and that other guy. and the news guy and maybe even one or both of the bots. for lack of other actual evidence, bit could easily be grandfathered in. Graeme Gill currently working with color management. don't piss them off yet! Michael Hammel graphics muse. uses imake. business cards and arrows. a gimp grandfather. probably invented a magazine so he could write about gimp -- who knows? Andrew Kieschnick he bought the gimp news guy a beer. Aaron Sherman maybe i am confused and this is the person who bought Xach a beer. and i am sorry if you are a good friend and did a lot and i missed the connection between the name and the irc nick or the aliased bugzilla stuff or the fake email you use. i might even have just missed it and there was no faking. carol ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] authors.xml, volunteer needed
On Sat, Aug 27, 2005 at 12:52:17PM +0300, Tor Lillqvist wrote: The following names I couldn't find in the ChangeLogs, somebody else could grep through the mailint list archives. My apologies if I have missed someone obvious whom I should know by name. Ian Main [EMAIL PROTECTED] his irc nick is Slow and knowing all of this about mr. main you should be able to guess that he wrote the original gtk tutorial. he lives in canada and has a baby named Int. carol ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Using GIMP for Paper Prototyping the Colors Menu
Anyone pulling CVS has probably noticed that most of GIMP's color-related functions have been moved into a new toplevel Colors menu (as discussed in bug 116145). There's some concern that the menu is a bit long, or could be organized better. Sven has been enthused about paper prototyping lately (see discussion in his blog entry) -- that's where you write things down on slips of paper and shuffle them around to come up with the order that seems most intuitive. The problem is, you need to get everybody together in a room for that, which is hard with a worldwide development community. Apparently someone (in gnome?) is working on some sort of card-sorting app to help with distributed paper prototyping. But it occurred to me (based on an offhand comment I read on slashdot, of all places) that GIMP itself could be a pretty good paper prototyping system. After all, you can have lots of text layers and drag them around with the move tool, and there's even a way to save your work when you're done. So I wrote a little quickie paper prototyping script-fu. It's at http://shallowsky.com/software/gimp/paperproto.scm Drop it into your ~/.gimp-?.?/scripts directory and Refresh Scripts. It registers under Xtns-Script-fu-Misc. Fill the textarea with a list of your paper prototyping terms, one per line, and it will make an image where each phrase is a text layer you can drag around. Anyone concerned with the Colors menu, please try this and drag stuff around and see if you find groupings you like better than the current ones. For the current Colors menu, the strings to paste into the paperproto dialog are (copy and paste the whole block): Image Mode Color Balance... Hue-Saturation... Colorize... Brightness-Contrast... Threshold... Levels... Curves... Posterize... Desaturate... Invert Value Invert Auto Histogram Colorcube Analysis... Adjust FG-BG Alien Map 2... Color Exchange... Color Range Mapping... Colormap Rotation... Gradient Map Palette Map Sample Colorize... Compose... Decompose... Recompose... Border Average... Channel Mixer... Color to Alpha... Colorify... Filter Pack... Hot... Max RGB... Retinex... Semi-Flatten Smooth Palette... Draw HSV Graph... Happy prototyping! ...Akkana ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Using GIMP for Paper Prototyping the Colors Menu
On 8/27/05, Akkana Peck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: card-sorting app to help with distributed paper prototyping. But it occurred to me (based on an offhand comment I read on slashdot, of all places) that GIMP itself could be a pretty good paper prototyping system. After all, you can have lots of text layers and As a side note, this is actually a very good way of using the GIMP -- I used it myself when trying to solve a puzzle I was given by a teacher. Quite handy! It might help if you bind the text layers to a coloured layer, (either white, or white with an outline, or something), so they're easier to see. [Especially if trying to create a layout that fills multiple conditions.] -- ~Mike - Just my two cents - No man is an island, and no man is unable. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Using GIMP for Paper Prototyping the Colors Menu
On 8/27/05, michael chang [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It might help if you bind the text layers to a coloured layer, (either white, or white with an outline, or something), so they're easier to see. [Especially if trying to create a layout that fills multiple conditions.] Sorry, said this before looking at the script. Very nice! [I don't believe it would be sane to say maybe considering optionally having coloured backgrounds/background outlines per layer (to catagorize items, maybe), nor to allow for all the pieces to be stuck in a pile in the corner -- but then again I believe I'm a very insane person. Although that's what I meant, on reconsideration, that would be too much work and looping IMO for such a simple script.] -- ~Mike - Just my two cents - No man is an island, and no man is unable. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] authors.xml, volunteer needed
On Sat, Aug 27, 2005 at 12:52:17PM +0300, Tor Lillqvist wrote: Based on ChangeLog* po*/ChangeLog: i wonder how many of the missing people can be found in gtk+/ChangeLog*? carol ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] authors.xml, volunteer needed
On Sat, 2005-08-27 at 12:52 +0300, Tor Lillqvist wrote: Stephen Robert Norris I wrote the original Plasma plugin, Displace plugin and... waves? plugin... It's been a while. Stephen signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Gimp-developer] authors.xml, volunteer needed
Stephen Robert Norris writes: I wrote the original Plasma plugin, Displace plugin and... waves? plugin... It's been a while. OK. As Sven said, no big changes are expected. I assume all who can't be with 100% certainty classified as documenter or artist will stay as author. --tml ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Problem with GIMP 2.2.8 despeckle plugin
Hi, I'm trying to find a median filter for GIMP and have been having some difficulties. From what I've gathered with google, despeckle plugin is the one that I should look at. I think that it should be ran in non-adaptive and non-recursive mode with white/black points se to maximum. But when it's ran with those settings it doesn't produce what I expect. Here's an image: http://iki.fi/psavo/random/gimp-despeckle-problem.jpg.html I can't tell if it's a bug or not as I don't know exactly what despeckle should produce. Produced result is also different depending on whether the layer is bottom-most or not. Thanks, -- Psi -- http://www.iki.fi/pasi.savolainen ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
