Re: [Gimp-developer] [Fwd: Some suggestions for the plug-in registry]

2005-08-27 Thread Nathan Summers
On 8/26/05, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi,
 
 Nathan Summers [EMAIL PROTECTED]  writes:
 
  2.3 is a development version with no API guarantees whatsoever. The
  API is constantly changing and noone should be developing any
  plug-ins for it.
 
  If you have such a closed Gimp Club attitude, why make developer
  releases at all?  After all, all the members of the Gimp Club have
  cvs accounts.  One of the most important reasons that we have
  preview releases is so that when 2.4 is released, third-party
  plugins are already available for it.  It's abundantly obvious that
  2.3 is a developer edition, with all that entails, and both users
  and plugin developers are aware of the fact that things can break,
  but that doesn't mean that it's counterproductive to track
  development and to test the new features.  Would you prefer that
  serious problems in newly added plug-in apis not be discovered until
  after they are frozen?
 
 The only reason I don't want to see a 2.3 version in a plug-in
 registry is that doesn't seem to make much sense. After all any new
 API could change with the next new minor 2.3 release. The version
 listed in the registry would also have to include the micro version
 number then.

All plugins will eventually go obsolete, true, regardless of what
versions they compile against.  Including the point release is easy
enough.  Chances are also pretty good that a plugin that compiles
against 7.5.15 will compile against 7.5.17 even if they are both
development versions.  Caveat compilor, but I would be willing to give
it a go, especially if it were a plugin I had a distinct need for.

 I am deliberately ignoring the hostile attitude of your mail. We both
 know very well that we don't like each other.  There's no point in
 continuing this in public. Feel free to flame me in private mail.

I'm sorry if you don't like me, but I like you just fine.  Would you
honestly want me to not speak up when you say something that's not in
GIMP's best interests?  If I wanted to be hostile, I would have been
much, much more hostile.  I would have been more subtle, but subtly is
often lost on you.

So no, I will say what I think is best for the GIMP project, and I
will do so publicly.  If you think I disagree with everything you do,
you're wrong.  You have good judgement on technical matters, and I
respect pretty much all the decisions you've made in that area.  (The
few I haven't are well-documented.)  You can't possibly want me to me
too every good decision you make like some AOLer. :)

But realize that you are not perfect, and when I do speak up, it's
because I want GIMP to be the best it can be.  I'm not perfect either,
and I'm not always right, but I truly believe that by putting our
heads together, we can all come to a mutually-agreed conclusion on
what is best.  GIMP used to be run by that principle, and it's my
personal belief that that system can work better than any personal
dictatorship ever could.

Right now one of the most serious problems that GIMP has is a lack of
active developers.  I will be blunt (frank, not hostile, and only
because such frankness is necessary.)  The reason for this is that
GIMP development has become dysfunctional, and the original mail I
responded to was symptomatic of this dysfunction.

Like any good dysfunction, there are several interrelated parts.  One
part is that a small but vocal minority of the community are quite
hostilely impatient with practically any newcomer who tries to learn
the ropes, and as a result, almost all of them get driven away.  There
were serious problems with the first patch I ever submitted to a
software project.  If I had gotten the treatment that most newcomers
who haven't been magically endowed with the all the right skills now
get here, I'd probably be working for Microsoft and spending my free
time blogging about how the open source zealots don't understand the
real world.  Instead, I got a patient reply explaining how exactly how
to submit my changes in the most suitable form, and I got very
prominent mention in the release notes of the next version. 
Unsurprisingly, I continued to contribute to that and later to other
projects.

The unwillingness to mentor potential new developers, combined with
the fact that practically everyone who was willing to speak up if they
didn't like a particular decision have left in disgust at your
tendency to turn any disagreement into a personal matter, as you just
tried to here, has resulted in a very unhealthy environment.  For
example, I used to spend all of my free time hacking gimp, but that is
no longer the case, and the only reason for this is that it's not
worth it for me to fight for every single nontrivial change or
addition that I make, especially since no one is left who will back me
if I don't get time to complete it.

I am far from the only contributor that feels this way.  I might knock
off a low-hanging feature or bug if I'm bored or it scratches a
personal itch, but in 

Re: [Gimp-developer] authors.xml, volunteer needed

2005-08-27 Thread Tor Lillqvist
Based on ChangeLog* po*/ChangeLog:

Index: authors.xml
===
RCS file: /cvs/gnome/gimp/authors.xml,v
retrieving revision 1.6
diff -u -0 -r1.6 authors.xml
--- authors.xml 20 Aug 2005 02:28:29 -  1.6
+++ authors.xml 27 Aug 2005 09:48:39 -
@@ -26 +26 @@
-  contributor role=authorRobert Brady/contributor
+  contributor role=documenterRobert Brady/contributor
@@ -30 +30 @@
-  contributor role=authorCarey Bunks/contributor
+  contributor role=documenterCarey Bunks/contributor
@@ -38 +38 @@
-  contributor role=authorKenneth Christiansen/contributor
+  contributor role=documenterKenneth Christiansen/contributor
@@ -48 +48 @@
-  contributor role=authorGert Dewit/contributor
+  contributor role=documenterGert Dewit/contributor
@@ -58 +58 @@
-  contributor role=authorValek Filippov/contributor
+  contributor role=documenterValek Filippov/contributor
@@ -64 +64 @@
-  contributor role=authorSami Gerdt/contributor
+  contributor role=documenterSami Gerdt/contributor
@@ -76,2 +76,2 @@
-  contributor role=authorHenrik Hansen/contributor
-  contributor role=authorVille Hautamäki/contributor
+  contributor role=documenterHenrik Hansen/contributor
+  contributor role=documenterVille Hautamäki/contributor
@@ -85 +85 @@
-  contributor role=authorAndreas Hyden/contributor
+  contributor role=documenterAndreas Hyden/contributor
@@ -87 +87 @@
-  contributor role=authorKrzysztof Jakubowski/contributor
+  contributor role=documenterKrzysztof Jakubowski/contributor
@@ -90 +90 @@
-  contributor role=authorFellmann Joaquim/contributor
+  contributor role=documenterFellmann Joaquim/contributor
@@ -127 +127 @@
-  contributor role=authorDaniele Medri/contributor
+  contributor role=documenterDaniele Medri/contributor
@@ -130 +130 @@
-  contributor role=authorJames Mitchell/contributor
+  contributor role=documenterJames Mitchell/contributor
@@ -135,2 +135,2 @@
-  contributor role=authorYukihiro Nakai/contributor
-  contributor role=authorSung-Hyun Nam/contributor
+  contributor role=documenterYukihiro Nakai/contributor
+  contributor role=documenterSung-Hyun Nam/contributor
@@ -138 +138 @@
-  contributor role=authorFelix Natter/contributor
+  contributor role=documenterFelix Natter/contributor
@@ -153 +153 @@
-  contributor role=authorSergey Panov/contributor
+  contributor role=documenterSergey Panov/contributor
@@ -158 +158 @@
-  contributor role=authorArtur Polaczynski/contributor
+  contributor role=documenterArtur Polaczynski/contributor
@@ -162 +162 @@
-  contributor role=authorVincent Renardias/contributor
+  contributor role=documenterVincent Renardias/contributor
@@ -169 +169 @@
-  contributor role=authorPablo Saratxaga/contributor
+  contributor role=documenterPablo Saratxaga/contributor
@@ -182 +182 @@
-  contributor role=authorCarol Spears/contributor
+  contributor role=artistCarol Spears/contributor
@@ -187 +187 @@
-  contributor role=authorYuri Syrota/contributor
+  contributor role=documenterYuri Syrota/contributor

The following names I couldn't find in the ChangeLogs, somebody else
could grep through the mailint list archives. My apologies if I have
missed someone obvious whom I should know by name.

Karl-Johan Andersson
John Beale
Marc Bless
Edward Blevins
Reagan Blundell
Xavier Bouchoux
Roberto Boyd
Brent Burton
Francisco Bustamante
Albert Cahalan
Sean Cier
Ed Connel
Brian Degenhardt
Scott Draves
Daniel Dunbar
Misha Dynin
Morton Eriksen
David Forsyth
Jochen Friedrich
Jim Geuther
Graeme Gill
Heiko Goller
Marcelo de Gomensoro Malheiros
Michael Hammel
Jan Hubička
Simon Janes
Andrew Kieschnick
Philipp Klaus
Karl La Rocca
Laramie Leavitt
Elliot Lee
Wing Tung Leung
Ingo Lütkebohle
Ed Mackey
Ian Main
Torsten Martinsen
Hirotsuna Mizuno
Balazs Nagy
Stephen Robert Norris
Tim Newsome
Erik Nygren
Thom van Os
Mike Phillips
Jens Restemeier
Daniel Risacher
James Robinson
Tim Rowley
Mike Schaeffer
John Schlag
Norbert Schmitz
Thorsten Schnier
Tracy Scott
Aaron Sherman
Daniel Skarda
Mike Sweet
Michael Taylor
Ian Tester
James Wang
Kris Wehner
Nigel Wetten

--tml

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Re: [Gimp-developer] [Fwd: Some suggestions for the plug-in registry]

2005-08-27 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

I am not going to respond on your mail in detail, mainly for lack of
time. Lots of good points being made and taken. However I would like
to state that I am not at all unwilling to mentor new developers. I
also think that our (and that includes mine) attitude towards new
ideas and requests for changes has become a lot better over the last
years. You are right that we are lacking active developers but we
gained quite a few new ones recently and I am not sure if they receive
GIMP development as bad as you put it. Quite a few people are rather
enthusiastic about it and I would love to have more time to help them
get into it.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] [Fwd: Some suggestions for the plug-in registry]

2005-08-27 Thread michael chang
On 8/26/05, Nathan Summers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 8/26/05, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Hi,
 
  michael chang [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
   1. Make it possible to indicate that a plug-in requires GIMP 2.2
  
   2.3, and 2.4 options would be nice here too, I suppose.  And also,
   change the list of links of types to a drop down box, maybe?  (Dunno.)
 
  2.3 is a development version with no API guarantees whatsoever. The
  API is constantly changing and noone should be developing any plug-ins
  for it.
 
 If you have such a closed Gimp Club attitude, why make developer
 releases at all?  After all, all the members of the Gimp Club have cvs
 accounts.  One of the most important reasons that we have preview
 releases is so that when 2.4 is released, third-party plugins are
 already available for it.  It's abundantly obvious that 2.3 is a
 developer edition, with all that entails, and both users and plugin
 developers are aware of the fact that things can break, but that
 doesn't mean that it's counterproductive to track development and to
 test the new features.  Would you prefer that serious problems in
 newly added plug-in apis not be discovered until after they are
 frozen?

Oh pah, stop arguing, I wasn't intending to get you guys angry. Geez. 
It was a suggestion.  If you don't like it, that's perfectly fine --
but adding them now would prevent us having to go and bug Mr. Web
Developer again when 2.4 is released.  (If he has to add all plugins
manually at the moment, then there isn't much point, but if it's
semi-automated or automated, adding them now but placing some sort of
consensus not to put things there works too.)

If it helps, why not have a (2.3/beta) or (current open beta) section,
and then wipe it when 2.4 is released?  Obviously, if you don't like
it, that's fine...

 Since 2.3 cvs contains a plugin that was originally maintained
 separately, and GIMP was developed against gtk 1.3 long before API
 freeze, it's obvious that you already know this, which makes me ask
 the question: why did you say this in the first place?  Seriously, it
 served no other purpose than discouraging people from testing the 2.3
 series.  GIMP isn't exactly overwhelmed with volunteers. We should be
 doing everything we can to encourage more people to try out 2.3, and
 more people to be testing its new features.  Yes, that even includes
 those features that have to be accessed programmatically.  Anyone who
 is capible of developing a plugin against 2.3 is capible of fixing any
 breakage if we change a non-frozen API.
 
  And 2.4 shouldn't be added before the 2.4 release.
 
 That's a matter of taste.  After all, if 2.4 is backwards compatible
 with 2.0 plugins, there are a ton of plugins that are already 2.4
 compatible.  What's not a matter of taste is that plug-ins shouldn't
 be marked as 2.4 compatible if they use non-frozen APIs.  After the
 API is frozen is a different matter.

I presume that this statement is made assuming 2.4 doesn't become 3.0...

-- 
~Mike
 - Just my two cents
 - No man is an island, and no man is unable.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] [Fwd: Some suggestions for the plug-in registry]

2005-08-27 Thread michael chang
On 8/27/05, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi,
 
 I am not going to respond on your mail in detail, mainly for lack of
 time. Lots of good points being made and taken. However I would like

Time is always an important issue, and a lack of it may cause
curtness.  It'd be nice if everyone always took this into
consideration, but sometimes we forget from time to time.  Reminders
are sometimes necessary, and this one was well placed.

 to state that I am not at all unwilling to mentor new developers. I

That is very reassuring, yes.

 also think that our (and that includes mine) attitude towards new
 ideas and requests for changes has become a lot better over the last
 years. You are right that we are lacking active developers but we

Indeed.

 gained quite a few new ones recently and I am not sure if they receive
 GIMP development as bad as you put it. Quite a few people are rather
 enthusiastic about it and I would love to have more time to help them
 get into it.

Hopefully, so would everyone else... ^_^

-- 
~Mike
 - Just my two cents
 - No man is an island, and no man is unable.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] authors.xml, volunteer needed

2005-08-27 Thread Nathan Summers
On 8/27/05, Tor Lillqvist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 The following names I couldn't find in the ChangeLogs, somebody else
 could grep through the mailint list archives. My apologies if I have
 missed someone obvious whom I should know by name.
 
 Thom van Os

He did the selective gaussian blur plugin, and I think I've seen the
name in other places as well.  But he definately qualifies as
author.

Rockwalrus
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Re: [Gimp-developer] authors.xml, volunteer needed

2005-08-27 Thread Carol Spears
On Sat, Aug 27, 2005 at 12:52:17PM +0300, Tor Lillqvist wrote:

i just cut a lot of work you did off from this reply.  thank you for
that :)

 
 The following names I couldn't find in the ChangeLogs, somebody else
 could grep through the mailint list archives. My apologies if I have
 missed someone obvious whom I should know by name.
 
 Marc Bless

without knowing what this person did, i wonder if he could fix
gimp-perl?

 Francisco Bustamante

this gentleman is known as bit on #gimp.  i am fairly certain he
contributed something in the 1.1 version.   at any rate, the gimp news
guy (at the time) pasted something from his irc log from way back.  it
was the people who were joined on the irc at a time so far into the
bowells of the last century -- i cannot remember the date of the paste
let alone the date the paste was from.  bit was there with spencer and
that other guy.  and the news guy and maybe even one or both of the
bots.  for lack of other actual evidence, bit could easily be
grandfathered in.


 Graeme Gill

currently working with color management.  don't piss them off yet!


 Michael Hammel

graphics muse.  uses imake.  business cards and arrows.  a gimp
grandfather.  probably invented a magazine so he could write about gimp
-- who knows?

 Andrew Kieschnick

he bought the gimp news guy a beer.

 Aaron Sherman

maybe i am confused and this is the person who bought Xach a beer.


and i am sorry if you are a good friend and did a lot and i missed the
connection between the name and the irc nick or the aliased bugzilla
stuff or the fake email you use.  

i might even have just missed it and there was no faking.

carol

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Re: [Gimp-developer] authors.xml, volunteer needed

2005-08-27 Thread Carol Spears
On Sat, Aug 27, 2005 at 12:52:17PM +0300, Tor Lillqvist wrote:
 
 The following names I couldn't find in the ChangeLogs, somebody else
 could grep through the mailint list archives. My apologies if I have
 missed someone obvious whom I should know by name.
 
 Ian Main

[EMAIL PROTECTED] his irc nick is Slow and knowing all of this about mr.
main you should be able to guess that he wrote the original gtk
tutorial.  he lives in canada and has a baby named Int.

carol

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[Gimp-developer] Using GIMP for Paper Prototyping the Colors Menu

2005-08-27 Thread Akkana Peck
Anyone pulling CVS has probably noticed that most of GIMP's
color-related functions have been moved into a new toplevel Colors
menu (as discussed in bug 116145).

There's some concern that the menu is a bit long, or could be
organized better. Sven has been enthused about paper prototyping
lately (see discussion in his blog entry) -- that's where you write
things down on slips of paper and shuffle them around to come up
with the order that seems most intuitive. The problem is, you need
to get everybody together in a room for that, which is hard with a
worldwide development community.

Apparently someone (in gnome?) is working on some sort of
card-sorting app to help with distributed paper prototyping. But it
occurred to me (based on an offhand comment I read on slashdot, of
all places) that GIMP itself could be a pretty good paper
prototyping system.  After all, you can have lots of text layers and
drag them around with the move tool, and there's even a way to save
your work when you're done.

So I wrote a little quickie paper prototyping script-fu. It's at
  http://shallowsky.com/software/gimp/paperproto.scm
Drop it into your ~/.gimp-?.?/scripts directory and Refresh Scripts.
It registers under Xtns-Script-fu-Misc.

Fill the textarea with a list of your paper prototyping terms, one
per line, and it will make an image where each phrase is a text
layer you can drag around.

Anyone concerned with the Colors menu, please try this and drag
stuff around and see if you find groupings you like better than the
current ones.

For the current Colors menu, the strings to paste into the
paperproto dialog are (copy and paste the whole block):

Image Mode
Color Balance...
Hue-Saturation...
Colorize...
Brightness-Contrast...
Threshold...
Levels...
Curves...
Posterize...
Desaturate...
Invert
Value Invert
Auto
Histogram
Colorcube Analysis...
Adjust FG-BG
Alien Map 2...
Color Exchange...
Color Range Mapping...
Colormap Rotation...
Gradient Map
Palette Map
Sample Colorize...
Compose...
Decompose...
Recompose...
Border Average...
Channel Mixer...
Color to Alpha...
Colorify...
Filter Pack...
Hot...
Max RGB...
Retinex...
Semi-Flatten
Smooth Palette...
Draw HSV Graph...

Happy prototyping!

...Akkana
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Using GIMP for Paper Prototyping the Colors Menu

2005-08-27 Thread michael chang
On 8/27/05, Akkana Peck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 card-sorting app to help with distributed paper prototyping. But it
 occurred to me (based on an offhand comment I read on slashdot, of
 all places) that GIMP itself could be a pretty good paper
 prototyping system.  After all, you can have lots of text layers and

As a side note, this is actually a very good way of using the GIMP --
I used it myself when trying to solve a puzzle I was given by a
teacher.  Quite handy!

It might help if you bind the text layers to a coloured layer, (either
white, or white with an outline, or something), so they're easier to
see. [Especially if trying to create a layout that fills multiple
conditions.]

-- 
~Mike
 - Just my two cents
 - No man is an island, and no man is unable.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Using GIMP for Paper Prototyping the Colors Menu

2005-08-27 Thread michael chang
On 8/27/05, michael chang [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 It might help if you bind the text layers to a coloured layer, (either
 white, or white with an outline, or something), so they're easier to
 see. [Especially if trying to create a layout that fills multiple
 conditions.]

Sorry, said this before looking at the script.  Very nice!  [I don't
believe it would be sane to say maybe considering optionally having
coloured backgrounds/background outlines per layer (to catagorize
items, maybe), nor to allow for all the pieces to be stuck in a pile
in the corner -- but then again I believe I'm a very insane person. 
Although that's what I meant, on reconsideration, that would be too
much work and looping IMO for such a simple script.]

-- 
~Mike
 - Just my two cents
 - No man is an island, and no man is unable.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] authors.xml, volunteer needed

2005-08-27 Thread Carol Spears
On Sat, Aug 27, 2005 at 12:52:17PM +0300, Tor Lillqvist wrote:
 Based on ChangeLog* po*/ChangeLog:
 
i wonder how many of the missing people can be found in gtk+/ChangeLog*?

carol

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Re: [Gimp-developer] authors.xml, volunteer needed

2005-08-27 Thread Stephen Robert Norris
On Sat, 2005-08-27 at 12:52 +0300, Tor Lillqvist wrote:
 Stephen Robert Norris

I wrote the original Plasma plugin, Displace plugin and... waves?
plugin... It's been a while.

Stephen


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part


Re: [Gimp-developer] authors.xml, volunteer needed

2005-08-27 Thread Tor Lillqvist
Stephen Robert Norris writes:
  I wrote the original Plasma plugin, Displace plugin and... waves?
  plugin... It's been a while.

OK. As Sven said, no big changes are expected. I assume all who can't
be with 100% certainty classified as documenter or artist will
stay as author.

--tml

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[Gimp-developer] Problem with GIMP 2.2.8 despeckle plugin

2005-08-27 Thread Pasi Savolainen
Hi,
I'm trying to find a median filter for GIMP and have been having some
difficulties. From what I've gathered with google, despeckle plugin is
the one that I should look at.
I think that it should be ran in non-adaptive and non-recursive mode
with white/black points se to maximum. But when it's ran with those
settings it doesn't produce what I expect.
Here's an image:
http://iki.fi/psavo/random/gimp-despeckle-problem.jpg.html

I can't tell if it's a bug or not as I don't know exactly what despeckle
should produce.

Produced result is also different depending on whether the layer is
bottom-most or not.


Thanks,
-- 
   Psi -- http://www.iki.fi/pasi.savolainen

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