Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-17 Thread pcg
On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 03:07:43PM -0500, David Gowers [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 the difficulty of dynamic-keyboard-shortcutting, you can avoid by creating a 
 shortcut scheme in advance.

That certainly works for you, but it also takes the dynamic out of
dynamic keyboard shortcuts, and some users (probably an absolute
minority, I have no counts) grew very fond of the dynamic aspect and used
it heavily.

Having to enter some shortcut editor would destroy this style of working
(and isn't necessary right now, of course :)

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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-16 Thread David Gowers
An 'adjust related keybindings' menu item for relevant docks would help a lot 
to ease keyboard-configuration. This would open the prefs-configure keyboard 
shortcuts dialog, scrolled to the relevant area.

the difficulty of dynamic-keyboard-shortcutting, you can avoid by creating a 
shortcut scheme in advance.
In mine,
I have P mapped to pencil, shift+P to paintbrush, ctrl+P to clone, 
ctrl+shift+P to airbrush, ctrl+alt+P to ink, alt+shift+p to dodge/burn. I 
followed this scheme through all the keybindings. commonest used - quickest 
to access, least used == slowest to access. (another example: C == Copy. 
SHIFT+C == Cut, CTRL+C == Copy Visible, CTRL+ALT+C == Copy Named, 
CTRL+ALT+SHIFT+C == Cut Named. and all the clear/fill with.. actions are 
mapped to F plus modifiers. Undo/redo is mapped to ; because i have a dvorak 
keyboard.) . 


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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-15 Thread Nathan Summers
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 03:06:33 +0100, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 The discussion about the design of the file-chooser widget is
 off-topic since we are not in the position to change it.

Waaait, we're you advocating a few days ago that we follow the burning
GTK edge because, after all, it's the Gimp ToolKit and so we can
ensure that GTK continues to support the GIMP's needs?

Rockwalrus
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-15 Thread pcg
On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 02:59:55PM -0500, Nathan Summers [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:53:17 +0100, Marc A. Lehmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  For example, you can switch between dynamic keybindigs and mnemonic use
  via preferences, but the 2.x dynamic keybindings are not as useful as
  the 1.2 DKB were, and I do not think that penalizing people who prefer
  that way (remember, it once was a killer feature of the gimp, just as
  shell-like tab completion in the file dialog was) is reasonable.
 
 Out of curiosity, why do you find the 2.x dynamic keybindings not as useful?

Mostly because they need to be set in a different place (e.g. image menu)
then where they are used (e.g. layers dialog) and the shortcuts are not
being shown (Which is bad because I often change them depending on my
needs). That is what I meant by penalizing.

A minor point is that I need to organize my already-crowded keybindings
better because they are global, whereas before I ctrl-d could mean
duplicate image or layer, depending on the context (I am used to
focus-follows-mouse so this didn't bug me the least, but apperently it did
bug many others, so the change improve dusability for the masses or so :).
I call this minor because it's just that: a minor nuisance, and I guess
very difficult to make switchable via a preferences item.

And of course very minor is that I need to enable it, but that's sth. I don't
need to do very often :-

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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-15 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Nathan Summers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 The discussion about the design of the file-chooser widget is
 off-topic since we are not in the position to change it.

 Waaait, we're you advocating a few days ago that we follow the burning
 GTK edge because, after all, it's the Gimp ToolKit and so we can
 ensure that GTK continues to support the GIMP's needs?

I don't really see the relationship. But anyway, you certainly read up
on the file-chooser discussions. so you know that after a long
discussion a particular design for the dialog had been accepted and
has since then been implemented by the GTK+ developers. No fundamental
change to this design will be made without the approval of the person
who made the design in the first place. So, if you want to see an
entry being added to this dialog, you need to talk to that person.
Given the fact however that adding an entry to the dialog would ruin
the now very nice keyboard navigation offered by it, I am pretty sure
that such a change is not going to happen.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-13 Thread pcg
On Sun, Feb 13, 2005 at 02:19:52AM +0100, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  people in the past, too.
 
  I would call this hidden, yes, and I still think it's a usability problem,
  because 1.2 clearly worked better.
 
 Marc, I shouldn't argue with you

Maybe, but I think sensible arguments are in the best interests of everybody.

 but I have to disagree with you here.

I don't think you need to, I completely agree with you on this:

 Behaviour of keybindings was dependant on the window that has the
 focus. I don't know if this has ever been a problem to you but have you
 ever seen a new GIMP user struggling with this? Keybindings are vital in
 an application like GIMP. If Ctrl-Z for Undo doesn't work in the Layers
 dialog because it's only bound to the image window, then you end up
 moving focus between windows only to make keybindings work. This is how
 GIMP 1.2 worked. For a newbie it takes a long time to

[it hasn't been a problem to me because I use focus-follows-mouse, but the
current focus behaviour is not a problem to me either, so I agree that this
change is a good one]

I do not agree with that, though:

 The GIMP 1.2 behaviour was a major pain in the ass.

Parts of it were, others weren't. Dynamic keybindings worked much better.

Also, this does not mean that all the other changes were good, certainly
the file chooser was step backwards (it has good features, but all in all
it's a step backwards, I guess just temporarily until the gtk+ filechooser
gets fixed, but still, right now, it is, and it's not clear how this will
be fixed, or wether it will be fixed at all).

 get used to this behaviour. Sorry, but 1.2 didn't clearly work better.

It did work better at least with respect to keybindings in the layers
dialog. Right now, changing keybindings needs to be done in a very awkward
way - first search what you want in another menu, with different menu
ordering and contents, and then the keybinding isn't even reflected in the
layers dialog menu.

Yes, I think 1.2 worked clearly better in the layers dialog, and what you
say doesn't really invalidate the arguments in favour of that view.

 With GIMP 2.2 you can finally concentrate on your work instead of
 tracking what window your keypress might go to and what action it will
 cause there.

I never had that problem with 1.2, but with 2.2, I have the problem of
having to go to different places to change keybindings, and not having
reminders where I need them.

To users like me, this is an absolute step backwards. I don't think it's
right to penalize the workflow of some users to improve it for others, just
because their style is differently, unless you absolutely must choose between
options that cross each other out.

For example, you can switch between dynamic keybindigs and mnemonic use
via preferences, but the 2.x dynamic keybindings are not as useful as
the 1.2 DKB were, and I do not think that penalizing people who prefer
that way (remember, it once was a killer feature of the gimp, just as
shell-like tab completion in the file dialog was) is reasonable.

  I don't understand you. I described various problems. You claim they
  are simply not there. Why?

 You may have not realized, but I didn't ignore your problems at all.

Well... so far... you... did... mostly... but that's ok if you forget them
or I was unclear, as long as I have the chance of explaining it, which is
difficult if you get insulted for trying... but... well... your choice.

 There's a new thread I opened to discuss file-chooser performance and I

I thought the file-chooser performance was gtk+ related and off-topic
here? At least that was my original impression :)

The real problems is unintituive behaviour, for example having to press a
hidden key combination to get a text entry, or the fact that the
file-chooser doesn't display the results of the (lengthy) file scan. If I
have to wait for it, it should at least display the results, or do the file
scan only when I want it displayed.

That *seem* to be gimp-specific problems, at least nobody claimed
something different. If these are gtk+-dependent, too, then I'd be
glad to know about it, but other apps, such as gedit, which use the
filechooser have different behaviour, so I guess it *is* customizable and
gimp-specific.

 realized that we should have more pre-defined shortcuts in the Layers
 dialog. So I added shortcuts for New Layer and Duplicate Layer actions
 last night.

Cool! That is something that I would have liked to have, too, but it's not
as important to _me_, as I can define my own shortcuts. However, defining
them has become awkward in 2.2, and this is still an open issue, I think.
Having more predefined bindings is nice, but not a solution.

Also, please see that my problem was not that you ignored problems per-se,
but that instead of arguing logically (even socially) over problems
you start insulting people, which usually results in the thread ending
prematurely, which IMHO really lokks like ignoring, worse, 

Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-13 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

[EMAIL PROTECTED] ( Marc) (A.) (Lehmann ) writes:

 Also, this does not mean that all the other changes were good,
 certainly the file chooser was step backwards (it has good features,
 but all in all it's a step backwards, I guess just temporarily until
 the gtk+ filechooser gets fixed, but still, right now, it is, and
 it's not clear how this will be fixed, or wether it will be fixed at
 all).

We agree to disagree here then. IMO, with GTK+-2.6 the file-chooser is
a lot better than what we used to have in GIMP 1.2. There are still a
few issues like the lack of bookmark naming (which is being fixed in
GTK+ HEAD) and I'm not satisfied with the behaviour of completion in
the Ctrl-L popup.  But then, thanks to typeahead, I hardly use the
popup any longer. The file-chooser did indeed have a lot of problems
in the GTK+-2.4 versions. By now though it has reached the point where
it is superiour to the 1.2 version.

 To users like me, this is an absolute step backwards. I don't think
 it's right to penalize the workflow of some users to improve it for
 others, just because their style is differently, unless you
 absolutely must choose between options that cross each other out.

Well, we had to choose between using the deprecated GtkItemFactory
which is not any longer maintained or using GtkUIManager. GtkUIManager
finally allowed us to introduce global shortcuts and it is the base
for the much extended set of actions that you can bind keyboard
shortcuts to in GIMP 2.2. Or other input events, say your mouse wheel
or a MIDI controller...

 There's a new thread I opened to discuss file-chooser performance
 and I

 I thought the file-chooser performance was gtk+ related and off-topic
 here? At least that was my original impression :)

The discussion about the design of the file-chooser widget is
off-topic since we are not in the position to change it. Performance
problems in the GIMP filechooser however are of course a GIMP problem
until we have clearly figured out that it is not a GIMP problem but a
GTK+ one.  I do however believe that the problem you are reporting has
already been fixed in GTK+ version 2.4.14. But there's another thread
to discuss this. Please use it.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-12 Thread Sven Neumann
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ( Marc) (A.) (Lehmann ) writes:

 Really, you are putting words intgo my mouth that I didn't
 say. _Please_ stay out of this thread _or_ read my original mails
 where I clearly differentiated between gimp-specific issues and
 gtk+-specific ones.

Marc, it is you who is constantly trying to change your words. As soon
as you figure out that you have been wrong, you start to claim that
you didn't say this or that you referred to a different subject. You
did this at least twice in this very thread. Please try to acknowledge
when you have been wrong. Others are doing that here as well. You will
also have to apologize to Mitch or stay not only out of this thread
but out of this mailing-list.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-12 Thread pcg
On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 01:15:02PM +0100, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  where I clearly differentiated between gimp-specific issues and
  gtk+-specific ones.
 
 Marc, it is you who is constantly trying to change your words.

Ehem?

 as you figure out that you have been wrong, you start to claim that
 you didn't say this or that you referred to a different subject.

Ehem? Is this bullshitting tactics? I never changed my words. I originally
described a problem with the gimp file dialog, which is caused by two
things, a problem in gtk+ and a less disastrous problem in gimp.

 did this at least twice in this very thread. Please try to acknowledge
 when you have been wrong. Others are doing that here as well. You will

Sorry, but bullshitting and bullying around does not help. If at all it's
Mitch who should apologize :(

If that is the new kind of tactics of you, namely calling others as
spreading FUD, trying to intimadate them and bullying them around then you
are very poor.

You should learn to argue based on sound arguments instead of relying on
lies and distasteful bullying tactics.

 also have to apologize to Mitch or stay not only out of this thread
 but out of this mailing-list.

What's that supposed to mean? I have to stay out of this mailing list
because I won't apologize to Mitch that he made a mistake?

That is, of course, not what will happen. I am not responsible for you and
mitch's personal problems, but it's bad that you take it out on others who
are trying to be constructive :(

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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-12 Thread Simon Budig
Marc Lehmann ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 01:15:02PM +0100, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  as you figure out that you have been wrong, you start to claim that
  you didn't say this or that you referred to a different subject.
 
 Ehem? Is this bullshitting tactics? I never changed my words. I originally
 described a problem with the gimp file dialog, which is caused by two
 things, a problem in gtk+ and a less disastrous problem in gimp.

Can all of you please take this off list? It is not at all on topic for
this list.

Thanks,
Simon
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-12 Thread Sven Neumann
Marc,

[EMAIL PROTECTED] ( Marc) (A.) (Lehmann ) writes:

 as you figure out that you have been wrong, you start to claim that
 you didn't say this or that you referred to a different subject.

 Ehem? Is this bullshitting tactics? I never changed my words. I
 originally described a problem with the gimp file dialog, which is
 caused by two things, a problem in gtk+ and a less disastrous
 problem in gimp.

We had already figured out that the file-chooser issues don't belong
here and were discussing the keybindings in the layers dialog. I
explained the Image-Layer menu to you and you claimed that it would
be hidden. I explained to you that it is clearly visible and
documented.  That would have been the moment for you to shut up.
Instead you claimed that you were still talking about the
file-chooser. You are taking your words out of the context they
originally appeared in. That's not what I would call good style.

Look at the thread again, you are obviously only interested in a
flamewar. You've been accusing us of ignoring usability issues. That
is ridiculous since we have been working on nothing but usability for
the last two years. Other people are obviously capable of proposing
enhancements without pissing people off the way you do.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-12 Thread pcg
On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 08:29:10PM +0100, Simon Budig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Marc Lehmann ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 01:15:02PM +0100, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
   as you figure out that you have been wrong, you start to claim that
   you didn't say this or that you referred to a different subject.
  
  Ehem? Is this bullshitting tactics? I never changed my words. I originally
  described a problem with the gimp file dialog, which is caused by two
  things, a problem in gtk+ and a less disastrous problem in gimp.
 
 Can all of you please take this off list? It is not at all on topic for
 this list.

I will now, completely, except for noting that svens postings resulted
in precisely what he claimed it wouldn't: yet another thread with actual
usability problems has been *killed* in the worst possible way.

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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-12 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

[EMAIL PROTECTED] ( Marc) (A.) (Lehmann ) writes:

 I claimed and still claim that I cannot set shortcuts in the layers
 dialog, which was possible before, and posed a problem for other
 people in the past, too.

 I would call this hidden, yes, and I still think it's a usability problem,
 because 1.2 clearly worked better.

Marc, I shouldn't argue with you but I have to disagree with you here.
The GIMP 1.2 behaviour was a major pain in the ass. Behaviour of
keybindings was dependant on the window that has the focus. I don't
know if this has ever been a problem to you but have you ever seen a
new GIMP user struggling with this? Keybindings are vital in an
application like GIMP. If Ctrl-Z for Undo doesn't work in the Layers
dialog because it's only bound to the image window, then you end up
moving focus between windows only to make keybindings work. This is
how GIMP 1.2 worked. For a newbie it takes a long time to get used to
this behaviour. Sorry, but 1.2 didn't clearly work better. With GIMP
2.2 you can finally concentrate on your work instead of tracking what
window your keypress might go to and what action it will cause there.

 I don't understand you. I described various problems. You claim they are
 simply not there. Why?

You may have not realized, but I didn't ignore your problems at all.
There's a new thread I opened to discuss file-chooser performance and
I realized that we should have more pre-defined shortcuts in the
Layers dialog. So I added shortcuts for New Layer and Duplicate Layer
actions last night.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-11 Thread Michael Natterer
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ( Marc) (A.) (Lehmann ) writes:

 On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 07:35:11PM +0100, Michael Natterer [EMAIL 
 PROTECTED] wrote:
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ( Marc) (A.) (Lehmann ) writes:
  Some problems might be caused by misdesigns in gtk+, but not all.
 
 Ah, So which problem you have with the file dialog is GIMP specific?

 It takes a long time to open, for no reason. That is gimp-specific, other
 apps using the file dialog behave differently, as I explained.

On my machine it takes about as long to open GIMP's file dialog
as opening other GTK+/Gnome apps' file dialogs, for example gedit.

 As I already wrote, the gtk+-specific bug has already been reported. I do
 think it's worthwhile if you read the beginning of this thread.

 Why don't you stop complaining here and talk to the GTK+ mailing list?

 I didn't know the gtk+ mailing list is responsible for gimp-specific
 behaviour. Other apps that use the gtk+ file dialog behave differently, as
 I explained.

It is not GIMP specific.

 There is absolutely nothing we can do about that.

 That's fine with me then, really. Please note that i never asked you to do
 something for me. I did, however, describe usability problems with gimp.

 If you want to ignore these, that is your option (most probably because
 they are totally out of your control, as neither sven nor you ever shied
 away from more work to improve the gimp), but please don't claim they
 aren't there.

I don't ignore usability problems which (a) really exist and are (b)
our fault. I don't even ignore usability problems which are *not* our
fault. It took me some days to sort out usability and look an feel
problems with the GTK+ team right before the new file chooser was
initially released. They added/changed things because we figured them
when porting GIMP to GtkFileChooser.

 And no, we will certainly not hack around to make the GIMP's file
 dialogs look different from all other GTK+ apps' file dialogs.

 On my system (debian), gimp's file dialogs already look very different to
 other gtk+2 apps. No hack is required, and I didn't ask for one, either.

We only add the preview and the proc selection which takes about zero
seconds unless you are on a P300 or something.

 Now, why are you reacting so hostile? I just reported on some general
 deficiencies in gimp-2.x usability, of which the file dialog is the
 biggest one. If you (both sven and you) don't want to hear about that,
 just say so.

It am not hostile. You are spreading FUD.

 I do, however, think it's a bad sign that users (I read a few cases on
 this mailinglist before) who report their problems with usability get
 treated like that.

 The very least you can do is acknowledge the problems people have,
 whatever causes it and wether and how it can and should be fixed is
 secondary.

We do acknowledge problems, but we can't do anything about this one
(if there is one). I don't see how that slowness could be caused by
GIMP.  That's why I asked to complain against GTK+. There were
usability problems which were addressed with GTK+ 2.6. You use GTK+
2.6, do you?

ciao,
--mitch
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-11 Thread pcg
On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 10:56:38AM +0100, Michael Natterer [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  It takes a long time to open, for no reason. That is gimp-specific, other
  apps using the file dialog behave differently, as I explained.
 
 On my machine it takes about as long to open GIMP's file dialog
 as opening other GTK+/Gnome apps' file dialogs, for example gedit.

On mine, too. Really, you are putting words intgo my mouth that I didn't
say. _Please_ stay out of this thread _or_ read my original mails where
I clearly differentiated between gimp-specific issues and gtk+-specific
ones.

I think the reaction of accusing people of spreading FUD is pretty dumb,
but it seems to become the norm around here.

As you continuously ignore what I wrote I see no reason in prolonging this
discussion with you further, it just isn't productive to iterate over
facts when the other side ignores them.

 I don't ignore usability problems which (a) really exist and are (b)
 our fault.

Indeed, you call people reporting them as spreading FUD. Way cool. Thanks
god I am mostly out of here.

 fault. It took me some days to sort out usability and look an feel
 problems with the GTK+ team right before the new file chooser was
 initially released. They added/changed things because we figured them
 when porting GIMP to GtkFileChooser.

And yes, I am sure you are a) doing good work and b) do that diligently.
Still, your reaction to reported usability problems is extremely poor.

 GIMP.  That's why I asked to complain against GTK+.

Well, that's funny, because I already *wrote* that I have reported that
problem.

This make sit pretty clear thta you didn't read the report, at leats not very
carefully, so why do you think you should accuse me of spreading FUD? Do you
even know what I am spreading? Probably not...

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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-11 Thread Nathan Summers
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:32:03 +0100, Marc A. Lehmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I think the reaction of accusing people of spreading FUD is pretty dumb,
 but it seems to become the norm around here.

Especially because as far as I can tell you weren't making vague
misleading or dishonest statements about a competitor's product for
your personal financial gain.  But it is interesting to note that
Mitch considers gimp-developer read by enough members of the general
public to be usable for FUD purposes.

Rockwalrus
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-10 Thread Michael Natterer
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ( Marc) (A.) (Lehmann ) writes:

 On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 09:56:07PM -0800, William Skaggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  I really find it bad that you think those people are ignorant - not
  everybody can (or even will) read the source to find hidden keyboard
  shortcuts. That is simply too much to ask from anybody. 
 
 Your points are valid, but you have to realize that there is no such
 thing as a perfect ui solution in a program as complex as GIMP.  If 
 every interface element is always visible, the interface gets so
 complicated as to be unusable.  But if elements are hidden, they are
 hard to use for that very reason.  We can't win.

 Well, it should be clear that, except for small changes, the old file
 dialog worked better for the largest number of users. Also, the file
 save dialog in gimp-2.2 does have a path entry, so I don't think it's
 impossible to do it (that's just an example).

 Some problems might be caused by misdesigns in gtk+, but not all.

Ah, So which problem you have with the file dialog is GIMP specific?

Why don't you stop complaining here and talk to the GTK+ mailing list?
There is absolutely nothing we can do about that. And no, we will
certainly not hack around to make the GIMP's file dialogs look
different from all other GTK+ apps' file dialogs.

ciao,
--mitch
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-10 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi Marc,

[EMAIL PROTECTED] ( Marc) (A.) (Lehmann ) writes:

 I don't understand why they are ignorant - having to use
 undocumented functionality and keyboard shortcuts without visible
 representation anyhwere is a usability problem. It doesn't matter if
 you post information how to wrk around that on some mailnglist.

Sorry, but the Image-Layer menu is visible and it is fully documented
also.

We can certainly improve the set of default keybindings and try to add
some useful ones in the Layer menu. There's also still the great menu
reorganisation project looking for volunteers...


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-10 Thread pcg
On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 01:17:32AM +0100, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 Hi Marc,
 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ( Marc) (A.) (Lehmann ) writes:
 
  I don't understand why they are ignorant - having to use
  undocumented functionality and keyboard shortcuts without visible
  representation anyhwere is a usability problem. It doesn't matter if
  you post information how to wrk around that on some mailnglist.
 
 Sorry, but the Image-Layer menu is visible and it is fully documented
 also.

Sorry, I was talking about the file dialog, which certainly has
undocumented and invisilble keybindings, such as ctrl-l.

 We can certainly improve the set of default keybindings and try to add
 some useful ones in the Layer menu. There's also still the great menu
 reorganisation project looking for volunteers...

Yeah, that's fine. I just couldn't understand why usability first has to
be reduced and then maybe later improved, but if it's according to some
master plan it might work even for me, later.

-- 
The choice of a
  -==- _GNU_
  ==-- _   generation Marc Lehmann
  ---==---(_)__  __   __  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  --==---/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ /  http://schmorp.de/
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-10 Thread pcg
On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 07:35:11PM +0100, Michael Natterer [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ( Marc) (A.) (Lehmann ) writes:
  Some problems might be caused by misdesigns in gtk+, but not all.
 
 Ah, So which problem you have with the file dialog is GIMP specific?

It takes a long time to open, for no reason. That is gimp-specific, other
apps using the file dialog behave differently, as I explained.

As I already wrote, the gtk+-specific bug has already been reported. I do
think it's worthwhile if you read the beginning of this thread.

 Why don't you stop complaining here and talk to the GTK+ mailing list?

I didn't know the gtk+ mailing list is responsible for gimp-specific
behaviour. Other apps that use the gtk+ file dialog behave differently, as
I explained.

 There is absolutely nothing we can do about that.

That's fine with me then, really. Please note that i never asked you to do
something for me. I did, however, describe usability problems with gimp.

If you want to ignore these, that is your option (most probably because
they are totally out of your control, as neither sven nor you ever shied
away from more work to improve the gimp), but please don't claim they
aren't there.

 And no, we will certainly not hack around to make the GIMP's file
 dialogs look different from all other GTK+ apps' file dialogs.

On my system (debian), gimp's file dialogs already look very different to
other gtk+2 apps. No hack is required, and I didn't ask for one, either.

Now, why are you reacting so hostile? I just reported on some general
deficiencies in gimp-2.x usability, of which the file dialog is the
biggest one. If you (both sven and you) don't want to hear about that,
just say so.

I do, however, think it's a bad sign that users (I read a few cases on
this mailinglist before) who report their problems with usability get
treated like that.

The very least you can do is acknowledge the problems people have,
whatever causes it and wether and how it can and should be fixed is
secondary.

-- 
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  -==- _GNU_
  ==-- _   generation Marc Lehmann
  ---==---(_)__  __   __  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  --==---/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ /  http://schmorp.de/
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-09 Thread pcg
On Mon, Feb 07, 2005 at 11:01:07PM +0100, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 How would that be specific to GIMP? The problem is that there is not
 only the combo-box. There's a full directory view below it. It's
 hidden in an expander but that doesn't change the fact that it is
 there.

On my screen, there isn't. It doesn't matter to the user how something
is implemented internally, and that it is hidden but there. by default,
it's not there (displayed), and it's hard to imagine why a uI element
that is hidden and not used in many cases should require the majority of
cpu time.

 This is however completely in the GTK+ realm. It could probably
 be improved but that would have to be done in GTK+.

I don't think it's completely in the GTK+ realm. But yes, the biggets
problem is in the GTK+ realm.

  In gimp-2.x, I seem to be unable to set shortcuts in the layers
  dialog (and the predefined shortcuts that didn't work in 2.0 were
  removed), so it seems gimp-2 forces me to use menus or clicking
  icons were I could use keyboard shortcuts before.
 
 The entries are all available in the Image menu, so you can easily
 bind shortcuts to the entries that don't have one yet. In GIMP 2.2
 these shortcuts work globally. Even if the Layers dialog, the toolbox

Yes, that's a usability drawback for me, too :(

 limited to what appears in the menus. Perhaps you should explain that
 to the people laughing. Laugh about their ignorance.

I don't understand why they are ignorant - having to use undocumented
functionality and keyboard shortcuts without visible representation
anyhwere is a usability problem. It doesn't matter if you post information
how to wrk around that on some mailnglist.

I really find it bad that you think those people are ignorant - not
everybody can (or even will) read the source to find hidden keyboard
shortcuts. That is simply too much to ask from anybody.

-- 
The choice of a
  -==- _GNU_
  ==-- _   generation Marc Lehmann
  ---==---(_)__  __   __  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  --==---/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ /  http://schmorp.de/
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-09 Thread William Skaggs

Marc Lehmann wrote:
 On my screen, there isn't. It doesn't matter to the user how something
 is implemented internally, and that it is hidden but there. by default,
 it's not there (displayed), and it's hard to imagine why a uI element
 that is hidden and not used in many cases should require the majority of
 cpu time.

Not that Sven needs me to defend him, but I didn't perceive that
he was trying to justify the behavior, only to explain how it
comes about.  And the fact is that there is no way to change it
except either by changing the Gtk+ code, or by not using the Gtk+
file chooser.

 I really find it bad that you think those people are ignorant - not
 everybody can (or even will) read the source to find hidden keyboard
 shortcuts. That is simply too much to ask from anybody. 

Your points are valid, but you have to realize that there is no such
thing as a perfect ui solution in a program as complex as GIMP.  If 
every interface element is always visible, the interface gets so
complicated as to be unusable.  But if elements are hidden, they are
hard to use for that very reason.  We can't win.  So the right
approach is not to be dogmatic, but to try to find the compromises
that work best for the largest number of users.  

Best,
  -- Bill
 

 
__ __ __ __
Sent via the CNPRC Email system at primate.ucdavis.edu


 
   
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-08 Thread Hal V. Engel
On Sunday 06 February 2005 05:44, Sven Neumann wrote:
 This looks as if you installed pango into a prefix that is not
 searched by the linker. You will have to either 
modify /etc/ld.so.conf
 to include that path, or set the LD_LIBRARY_PATH environment 
variable.
 
 
 Sven

This helped and I was able to find the problem.  I had 2 copies of 
Pango installed in different locations.  I removed the incorrect one 
and then double checked everything related to GTK and GIMP to make 
sure there was only one copy and that these were installed in a way 
that was consistent with the SuSE RPMs.  Which they were.  I then 
restarted the GTK installation starting with GLIB just to make sure.  

There were no apparent problems during the build process and I tested 
GIMP as each new library was installed.  Everything worked until I 
installed GTK then GIMP, Firefox, GKrellM and other GTK dependant apps 
started failing with a libgtk-x11-2.0.so: undefined reference to 
'gdk_threads_unlock' error.  As soon as I backed out GTK to the 
version from the distro these apps started working again.  By the way 
this is the same error message I got when I installed gtk 2.4 from the 
ULB SuSE RPMs.

I checked on the gtk-list archive to see if this error had been 
reported.  There was one short thread about this error message (4 
emails).  But the fix information is not in the thread.  Either 
because it was never fixed or the information was communicated off 
list.

So the state of my machine now is that I have glib 2.6.2, Pango 1.8 and 
ATK 1.9 installed but I still have gtk 2.2.4 installed.  Everything is 
working but of course I can not install any version of GIMP newer than 
2.0.x.   Anyone have any clues about what I need to do to get gtk 2.6 
installed?

-- 
Hal V. Engel


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Description: PGP signature


Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-08 Thread Robert Ögren
On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, Hal V. Engel wrote:

 So I did some more looking around on my system and it turned out that I
 had 2 versions of pango installed in 2 locations (1.6 in /usr/local/lib
 and 1.8 in /opt/gnome/lib).  So I cleaned this up. I also checked
 everything else related to GTK and GIMP to make sure that I had no
 duplicates before moving on.

Did you also check that there were no files named for example
libgdk-x11-2.0.so* in /usr/local/lib  or anywhere else on the system
except for /opt/gnome/lib?
(that file is a part of GTK+)

 I then un-installed (just to make sure) and built GLIB, Pango, ATK and
 GTK.  There were no apparent problems during the build process.  But
 now when I try to run GIMP I get the following error message:

 gimp: error while loading shared
 libraries: /opt/gnome/lib/libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0: undefined
 symbol:gdk_threads_lock

 I get the same error message when I try to run Firefox and GKrellM.
 This is the same error message I was getting after I installed the GTK
 2.4 RPMs.  I tested GIMP after building each library and it was fine
 until GTK was installed.  I can get these running again by backing out
 GTK to the version that shipped with my distro.

 I did a search of the gtk-list, gtk-app-devel-list and gtk-devel-list
 and there was a thread on this error message on the gtk-list.  But it
 was a dead end as there was no solution to the problem posted in the
 thread.  Any ideas about what might be causing this?

To me that sounds like it's picking up a 2.2 version of libgdk which
didn't have that symbol. You could try running:

ldd /path/to/gimp-2.0

to see which shared libraries it depends on. If it seems to pick up
libgdk or libgtk from any other directory than /opt/gnome/lib (if that's
where you installed GTK+), then you have a problem. You could also check
the result of  ldd /opt/gnome/lib/libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0

You can run

objdump -T  /opt/gnome/lib/libgdk-x11-2.0.so.0 | grep lock

to make sure that the gdk_threads_lock symbol indeed exists in the
libgdk you built. It should be listed in the output from grep.

Hope this helps
Robert
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-08 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Hal V. Engel [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 There were no apparent problems during the build process and I tested 
 GIMP as each new library was installed.  Everything worked until I 
 installed GTK then GIMP, Firefox, GKrellM and other GTK dependant apps 
 started failing with a libgtk-x11-2.0.so: undefined reference to 
 'gdk_threads_unlock' error.  As soon as I backed out GTK to the 
 version from the distro these apps started working again.  By the way 
 this is the same error message I got when I installed gtk 2.4 from the 
 ULB SuSE RPMs.

The version of GTK+ you compiled seems to have been built without
support for threads. You will want to recompile it and make sure that
thread support is correctly enabled.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-08 Thread Hal V. Engel
On Tuesday 08 February 2005 13:15, Robert Ögren wrote:
snip
 Did you also check that there were no files named for example
 libgdk-x11-2.0.so* in /usr/local/lib  or anywhere else on the system
 except for /opt/gnome/lib?
 (that file is a part of GTK+)

Yes I did exactly that.  I did the same for glib, pango and atk.  But I 
did not try the same for gdk since this is not listed as a dependency 
for GTK.
 
snip

 
 To me that sounds like it's picking up a 2.2 version of libgdk which
 didn't have that symbol. You could try running:
 
 ldd /path/to/gimp-2.0
 
 to see which shared libraries it depends on. If it seems to pick up
 libgdk or libgtk from any other directory than /opt/gnome/lib (if 
that's
 where you installed GTK+), then you have a problem. You could also 
check
 the result of  ldd /opt/gnome/lib/libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0
 
 You can run
 
 objdump -T  /opt/gnome/lib/libgdk-x11-2.0.so.0 | grep lock
 
 to make sure that the gdk_threads_lock symbol indeed exists in the
 libgdk you built. It should be listed in the output from grep.
 
 Hope this helps
 Robert

I did find an old version of gdk installed in /usr/local/lib dated 2003 
probably installed by who knows what RPM.  This was much older than 
the gdk installed in /opt/gnome/lib so I removed the files 
from /usr/local/lib and ran ldcongif.  And did a make install for gtk 
2.6.2.  The result is full of joy as GIMP and Firefox now run with out 
errors.  

Thanks for all the help.  I will now be able to follow the development 
of GIMP and can hopefully help guide the implementation of color 
management.

-- 
Hal V. Engel


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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-08 Thread Robert Ögren
On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, Hal V. Engel wrote:

 On Tuesday 08 February 2005 13:15, Robert Ögren wrote:
 snip
  Did you also check that there were no files named for example
  libgdk-x11-2.0.so* in /usr/local/lib  or anywhere else on the system
  except for /opt/gnome/lib?
  (that file is a part of GTK+)

 Yes I did exactly that.  I did the same for glib, pango and atk.  But I
 did not try the same for gdk since this is not listed as a dependency
 for GTK.

Actually, it is not a dependency. GDK is a part of GTK+ that more or less
abstracts the low-level interaction with the windowing system (X11, Win32
etc). So, installing GTK+ installs several library files, for example
libgdk_pixbuf, libgdk and libgtk. In the same way, GLib consists of
libglib, libgmodule, libgobject and libgthread; Pango has libraries like
libpango, libpangoft2, libpangox, libpangoxft, libpangowin32 etc etc. And
in addition some other stuff like configuration files and header files
gets installed as well.

If you encounter any more problems you might want to take another look in
/usr/local to see if there is more old stuff there. (But don't delete
files randomly ;) )

 The result is full of joy as GIMP and Firefox now run with out errors.

 Thanks for all the help.  I will now be able to follow the development
 of GIMP and can hopefully help guide the implementation of color
 management.

I'm glad to hear that!

Robert
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-07 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

[EMAIL PROTECTED] ( Marc) (A.) (Lehmann ) writes:

 However, when I think about it, there is another problem in the
 gimp: The save-as dialog (by default) only gives me a path-entry, so
 it's questionable why all that information is being read (in a
 blocking way, too), when it's not being displayed. This is likely
 specific to the gimp.

How would that be specific to GIMP? The problem is that there is not
only the combo-box. There's a full directory view below it. It's
hidden in an expander but that doesn't change the fact that it is
there. This is however completely in the GTK+ realm. It could probably
be improved but that would have to be done in GTK+.

 How is the layers dialog related to this?

 It's related to general usability. I have a problem with clicking
 icons, mainly because I seem to have a mental disorder causing me
 not to be able to identify icons. Well, seriously, me and a lot of
 people I know are able to read text much faster than icons, and can
 enter keyboard shortcuts much faster then clicking icons or menu
 items.

 In gimp-2.x, I seem to be unable to set shortcuts in the layers
 dialog (and the predefined shortcuts that didn't work in 2.0 were
 removed), so it seems gimp-2 forces me to use menus or clicking
 icons were I could use keyboard shortcuts before.

The entries are all available in the Image menu, so you can easily
bind shortcuts to the entries that don't have one yet. In GIMP 2.2
these shortcuts work globally. Even if the Layers dialog, the toolbox
or any other dock is focused, can you use these shortcuts. In GIMP 2.2
you can set keyboard shortcuts for almost everything. You aren't even
limited to what appears in the menus. Perhaps you should explain that
to the people laughing. Laugh about their ignorance.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-06 Thread Carol Spears
On Sun, Feb 06, 2005 at 09:58:27AM +0100,  Marc A. Lehmann  wrote:
 On Sat, Feb 05, 2005 at 02:17:43PM -0800, Carol Spears [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
   http://packages.debian.org/unstable/libs/libgtk2.0-0
   
  i guess that apt is not so well named lately?  maybe apt not to is
  better?
 
$ apt-get install libgtk2.0-0/unstable
Reading Package Lists... Done
Building Dependency Tree... Done
Selected version 2.6.1-2 (Debian-amd64:3.2/unstable) for libgtk2.0-0
libgtk2.0-0 is already the newest version.
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 77 not upgraded.
 
 2.6 is definitely in unstable, and apt works fine to retrieve it.
 
this confirms my suspicions that apt has a personal vendetta against
just me.

carol

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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-06 Thread Daniel Egger
On 06.02.2005, at 02:46, Hal V. Engel wrote:
I probably should have said that I believed that the problems I had
with GTK 2.4 were likely caused by the RPMs I was using (user local
bin) as I had not tried building it myself.  So this is a SuSE 9.1
specific problem.   There have been some rather lengthly discussions
about this on a SuSE forum that I frequent and some users are able to
install this using these RPMs with no problems and others encounter
significant problems.  It appears to be about 50/50 odds.   No one
seems to know why.
For all SUSE users in here I will try to contact the right people
in this company and have them generate gtk+/glib packages for some
recent versions of their distribution so you can continue having
your own GIMP builds without other conflicts.
Servus,
  Daniel


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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-06 Thread Hal V. Engel
On Sunday 06 February 2005 02:21, Daniel Egger wrote:
 On 06.02.2005, at 02:46, Hal V. Engel wrote:
 
  I probably should have said that I believed that the problems I had
  with GTK 2.4 were likely caused by the RPMs I was using (user local
  bin) as I had not tried building it myself.  So this is a SuSE 9.1
  specific problem.   There have been some rather lengthly 
discussions
  about this on a SuSE forum that I frequent and some users are able 
to
  install this using these RPMs with no problems and others encounter
  significant problems.  It appears to be about 50/50 odds.   No one
  seems to know why.
 
 For all SUSE users in here I will try to contact the right people
 in this company and have them generate gtk+/glib packages for some
 recent versions of their distribution so you can continue having
 your own GIMP builds without other conflicts.
 
 Servus,
Daniel
 

I have started building GTK 2.6.2  glib 2.6.2, pango 1.8.0 and atk 
1.9.0 all installed without any apparent problems.  GTK configures 
with any problems but fails on the make with the following error 
messages:

GTK/gtk+-2.6.2/demos/gtk-demo/rotated_text.c:86: undefined reference to 
`pango_renderer_draw_layout'
../../gdk/.libs/libgdk-x11-2.0.so: undefined reference to 
`pango_renderer_set_color'
../../gdk/.libs/libgdk-x11-2.0.so: undefined reference to 
`pango_renderer_get_type'
../../gdk/.libs/libgdk-x11-2.0.so: undefined reference to 
`pango_renderer_get_color'
../../gdk/.libs/libgdk-x11-2.0.so: undefined reference to 
`pango_xft_renderer_get_type'
../../gdk/.libs/libgdk-x11-2.0.so: undefined reference to 
`pango_renderer_set_matrix'
../../gdk/.libs/libgdk-x11-2.0.so: undefined reference to 
`pango_renderer_deactivate'
../../gtk/.libs/libgtk-x11-2.0.so: undefined reference to 
`pango_attr_shape_new_with_data'
../../gdk/.libs/libgdk-x11-2.0.so: undefined reference to 
`pango_renderer_draw_glyphs'
../../gdk/.libs/libgdk-x11-2.0.so: undefined reference to 
`pango_renderer_part_changed'
../../gdk/.libs/libgdk-x11-2.0.so: undefined reference to 
`pango_renderer_draw_layout_line'
../../gdk/.libs/libgdk-x11-2.0.so: undefined reference to 
`pango_renderer_activate'
collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
make[5]: *** [gtk-demo] Error 1
make[5]: Leaving directory 
`/home/heng/sources/GTK/gtk+-2.6.2/demos/gtk-demo'
make[4]: *** [all] Error 2
make[4]: Leaving directory 
`/home/heng/sources/GTK/gtk+-2.6.2/demos/gtk-demo'
make[3]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
make[3]: Leaving directory `/home/heng/sources/GTK/gtk+-2.6.2/demos'
make[2]: *** [all] Error 2
make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/heng/sources/GTK/gtk+-2.6.2/demos'
make[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/heng/sources/GTK/gtk+-2.6.2'
make: *** [all] Error 2


So perhaps pango did not install correctly.  I did a search of the gtk 
email list archives to see if I could find something that would give 
me some clues about what to look for or try.  But I didn't find 
anything.  So for the moment I am stuck.  It is late and I am tired so 
I am about to sleep on it.  But perhaps someone here with more 
experience with this than I can give me some guidance on what to do 
next.

Also this has not caused any problems on my machine unlike the RPMs I 
had tried a while back.  So this is good news.  At this point I 
believe that if I can resolve this problem I will be good to go. 

-- 
Hal V. Engel


pgp8oUv8l4shj.pgp
Description: PGP signature


Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-06 Thread Tino Schwarze
On Sat, Feb 05, 2005 at 11:17:09PM +0100, Sven Neumann wrote:

  You asked if going to 2.6 would cause a problem for them, and they
  indicated it would. 
 
 No, they didn't. They said that they have had problems updating gtk+
 in the past. So far noone has expressed any actual problems updating
 glib and gtk+ to version 2.6.

To get some details into the game - a while ago (just after 2.2 was
released), I tried upgrading to 2.6 (I thought that 2.6 was required,
but this doesn't matter here). I ended up with a system where

- gdm crashed (I was unable to get any useful error message - logging
  seems to be broken with regard to this, strace did not help)
- GIMP 2.2 crashed almost every time I opened the file selector with some
  strange pango message showing up (some assertion failed) - it seems
  that font handling has somehow changed (I did compile a new pango,
  but not a new freetype)
  I found an obscure way to prevent this crash, but I cannot remember 
  anymore - it was not really stable either.
- OpenOffice stopped working with some unresolved symbol
  _XineramaIsActive

I straced a lot but got no real conclusion (apart from that the new file
selector opens a lot of files which probably kills performance on
networked file systems).

I can give it a try tomorrow and see whether I get some useful error
messages. (My earlier message to this list describing my problems has
somehow been ignored, there might be some details in there.)

Bye, Tino.

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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-06 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Hal V. Engel [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I have started building GTK 2.6.2  glib 2.6.2, pango 1.8.0 and atk 
 1.9.0 all installed without any apparent problems.  GTK configures 
 with any problems but fails on the make with the following error 
 messages:

 GTK/gtk+-2.6.2/demos/gtk-demo/rotated_text.c:86: undefined reference to 
 `pango_renderer_draw_layout'
 ../../gdk/.libs/libgdk-x11-2.0.so: undefined reference to 
 `pango_renderer_set_color'
 ../../gdk/.libs/libgdk-x11-2.0.so: undefined reference to 
 `pango_renderer_get_type'
 ../../gdk/.libs/libgdk-x11-2.0.so: undefined reference to 
 `pango_renderer_get_color'
 ../../gdk/.libs/libgdk-x11-2.0.so: undefined reference to 
 `pango_xft_renderer_get_type'
 ../../gdk/.libs/libgdk-x11-2.0.so: undefined reference to 
 `pango_renderer_set_matrix'
 ../../gdk/.libs/libgdk-x11-2.0.so: undefined reference to 
 `pango_renderer_deactivate'
 ../../gtk/.libs/libgtk-x11-2.0.so: undefined reference to 
 `pango_attr_shape_new_with_data'
 ../../gdk/.libs/libgdk-x11-2.0.so: undefined reference to 
 `pango_renderer_draw_glyphs'
 ../../gdk/.libs/libgdk-x11-2.0.so: undefined reference to 
 `pango_renderer_part_changed'
 ../../gdk/.libs/libgdk-x11-2.0.so: undefined reference to 
 `pango_renderer_draw_layout_line'
 ../../gdk/.libs/libgdk-x11-2.0.so: undefined reference to 
 `pango_renderer_activate'
 collect2: ld returned 1 exit status

This looks as if you installed pango into a prefix that is not
searched by the linker. You will have to either modify /etc/ld.so.conf
to include that path, or set the LD_LIBRARY_PATH environment variable.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-06 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Carol Spears [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 i am curious to see what changes having gtk+-2.6 bring to poor gimp.
 many of the problems with the 2.4 fileselector get shoved off because of
 this great thing called gtk+-2.6.  can we see a screen shot or even
 several of the new things?

There are no changes in the GTK+-2.6 fileselector that would be
visible on a screenshot. What has been improved is that a couple of
keybindings have been added and some of the focus problems have been
eliminated. These changes improve usability of the file chooser a lot
and I think that it can now really be called an improvement over the
old GtkFileSelection widget. But of course you will disagree with me.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-06 Thread Robert L Krawitz
   From: Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 14:48:03 +0100

   Hi,

   Carol Spears [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

i am curious to see what changes having gtk+-2.6 bring to poor gimp.
many of the problems with the 2.4 fileselector get shoved off because of
this great thing called gtk+-2.6.  can we see a screen shot or even
several of the new things?

   There are no changes in the GTK+-2.6 fileselector that would be
   visible on a screenshot. What has been improved is that a couple of
   keybindings have been added and some of the focus problems have been
   eliminated. These changes improve usability of the file chooser a lot
   and I think that it can now really be called an improvement over the
   old GtkFileSelection widget. But of course you will disagree with me.

I thought it was supposed to allow actually typing in a filename?  The
really bad point of the 2.4 file selector is that (at least as far as
I can see) it only allows selecting a file, not typing the pathname
(at least, I don't see any text entry box!)

-- 
Robert Krawitz [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Tall Clubs International  --  http://www.tall.org/ or 1-888-IM-TALL-2
Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Project lead for Gimp Print   --http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net

Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works.
--Eric Crampton
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-06 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Robert L Krawitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I thought it was supposed to allow actually typing in a filename?
 The really bad point of the 2.4 file selector is that (at least as
 far as I can see) it only allows selecting a file, not typing the
 pathname (at least, I don't see any text entry box!)

The GTK+ 2.4 file-chooser already allows you to type in a filename
after you press Ctrl-L. In GTK+-2.6 however you just start typing and
navigate to the file using the typeahead feature of the treeview. You
will only sometimes need to use the Ctrl-L popup.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-06 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 The GTK+ 2.4 file-chooser already allows you to type in a filename
 after you press Ctrl-L. In GTK+-2.6 however you just start typing and
 navigate to the file using the typeahead feature of the treeview. You
 will only sometimes need to use the Ctrl-L popup.

Oh, and before more people ask about the keybindings:


  Alt- Up Go up a folder.
  (left in the path-bar at the top of the dialog)

  Alt-DownGo down a folder.
  (right in the path-bar at the top of the dialog)

  Alt-HomeGo to the home directory.

  Ctrl-L  Open the Location entry.

  /   Open the Location entry and enter '/' into it.

Other shortcuts are available as mnemonics in the dialog and should be
obvious enough not to mention them here.


We should probably add this information to the user manual.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-06 Thread Robert L Krawitz
   From: Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 14:57:59 +0100

   Robert L Krawitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I thought it was supposed to allow actually typing in a filename?
The really bad point of the 2.4 file selector is that (at least as
far as I can see) it only allows selecting a file, not typing the
pathname (at least, I don't see any text entry box!)

   The GTK+ 2.4 file-chooser already allows you to type in a filename
   after you press Ctrl-L. In GTK+-2.6 however you just start typing
   and navigate to the file using the typeahead feature of the
   treeview. You will only sometimes need to use the Ctrl-L popup.

That's terribly obvious :-(  If the entry box isn't visible, how is
anyone to know that you can actually do this?

-- 
Robert Krawitz [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Tall Clubs International  --  http://www.tall.org/ or 1-888-IM-TALL-2
Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Project lead for Gimp Print   --http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net

Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-06 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Robert L Krawitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 That's terribly obvious :-(  If the entry box isn't visible, how is
 anyone to know that you can actually do this?

You can do that in all treeviews (at least all treeviews that set a
search column). This is something that the user has to be told once
but since it's available all over the place, that shouldn't be much of
a problem.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-06 Thread Robert L Krawitz
   From: Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 16:19:14 +0100

   Robert L Krawitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

That's terribly obvious :-(  If the entry box isn't visible, how is
anyone to know that you can actually do this?

   You can do that in all treeviews (at least all treeviews that set a
   search column). This is something that the user has to be told once
   but since it's available all over the place, that shouldn't be much
   of a problem.

Every other file dialog I've ever seen has a visible entry for typing
in a filename.  It's not clear to me why there's any advantage at all
to not having it visible.  It just seems like a gratuitous
incompatibility.

-- 
Robert Krawitz [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Tall Clubs International  --  http://www.tall.org/ or 1-888-IM-TALL-2
Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Project lead for Gimp Print   --http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net

Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-06 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Robert L Krawitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Every other file dialog I've ever seen has a visible entry for typing
 in a filename.  It's not clear to me why there's any advantage at all
 to not having it visible.  It just seems like a gratuitous
 incompatibility.

Well, this is the wrong list to complain about it. I was just trying
to help you to get along with the new file-chooser.

That said, I would like to state that whatever happens in GTK+, is of
course our responsibility as well. After all it's the GIMP toolkit.
IMO we should work a lot closer with the GTK+ development team. If it
was me, the GIMP development branch would depend on the latest CVS
versions of glib and gtk+. That would allow us to follow the
development a lot closer and would allow us to give feedback early
enough for it to be considered. The way we are working now (a lot of
developers still using the now unmaintained gtk+-2.4 branch), we are
of course always way too late.

But given the antagonism that shows up every time we update the GTK+
dependencies to the latest stable version, I don't even dare to ask
about having GIMP depend on the GTK+ development branch.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-06 Thread Nathan Summers
On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 17:22:00 +0100, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 That said, I would like to state that whatever happens in GTK+, is of
 course our responsibility as well. After all it's the GIMP toolkit.
 IMO we should work a lot closer with the GTK+ development team. If it
 was me, the GIMP development branch would depend on the latest CVS
 versions of glib and gtk+. That would allow us to follow the
 development a lot closer and would allow us to give feedback early
 enough for it to be considered. The way we are working now (a lot of
 developers still using the now unmaintained gtk+-2.4 branch), we are
 of course always way too late.

For a long time the policy was that we used the most recent devel
branch release.  When did that change?  CVS HEAD is a little too
fast-moving, but I don't have a problem with using the latest devel
version, and I don't remember anyone else having a problem with it,
either.

Rockwalrus
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-06 Thread Michael Schumacher
Nathan Summers wrote:
For a long time the policy was that we used the most recent devel
branch release.  When did that change?  CVS HEAD is a little too
fast-moving, but I don't have a problem with using the latest devel
version, and I don't remember anyone else having a problem with it,
either.
I'd hate to have to build my own GTK+ - it is absolutely 
non-straight-forward on Win32, rather forth-back-forth-back...

Michael
--
The GIMP  http://www.gimp.org  | IRC: irc://irc.gimp.org/gimp
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-06 Thread Robert Ögren
On Sun, 6 Feb 2005, Michael Schumacher wrote:

 Nathan Summers wrote:

  For a long time the policy was that we used the most recent devel
  branch release.  When did that change?  CVS HEAD is a little too
  fast-moving, but I don't have a problem with using the latest devel
  version, and I don't remember anyone else having a problem with it,
  either.

 I'd hate to have to build my own GTK+ - it is absolutely
 non-straight-forward on Win32, rather forth-back-forth-back...

I don't find it much more complicated than building GIMP once the build
environment is set up properly (though that can be a bit complicated).
What might be needed are better instructions for doing that.

Here's a rather good step in that direction:
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gtk-devel-list/2005-January/msg00091.html


Robert
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-06 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Nathan Summers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 For a long time the policy was that we used the most recent devel
 branch release.  When did that change?  CVS HEAD is a little too
 fast-moving, but I don't have a problem with using the latest devel
 version, and I don't remember anyone else having a problem with it,
 either.

Well, I do remember that we had lots of complaints last time we
updated the dependencies. Otherwise we would have gone for GTK+-2.6 at
the moment we branched after the 2.2 release. Dave Neary has been one
of the most active advocates for being conservative with our
dependencies. Perhaps he can outline the reasons better.

For quite a while the policy is not to depend on libraries that are
not yet in debian testing. That's of course just a rule of thumb but
it guarantees that we work with stable software and that a reasonable
amount of time has passed by since the libraries were released. It
does however also mean that problems show up rather late. Often too
late to get them fixed w/o waiting for the next GTK+ development
cycle.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-06 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Nathan Summers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 For a long time the policy was that we used the most recent devel
 branch release.  When did that change?  CVS HEAD is a little too
 fast-moving, but I don't have a problem with using the latest devel
 version, and I don't remember anyone else having a problem with it,
 either.

Even though it would be tempting to use some of the features that are
currently being added to GTK+ HEAD, it would probably be a bad idea to
target GTK+-2.8 for GIMP 2.4. GTK+ HEAD just introduced a dependency
on Cairo. Of course it would be nice to finally convert our display
drawing routines to a proper vector drawing library, but I think we
should better put this on the GIMP 2.6 milestone.

Let's rather try to get GIMP 2.4 out as soon as possible and have it
depend on GTK+ 2.6.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-06 Thread pcg
On Sun, Feb 06, 2005 at 02:48:03PM +0100, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 keybindings have been added and some of the focus problems have been
 eliminated. These changes improve usability of the file chooser a lot
 and I think that it can now really be called an improvement over the
 old GtkFileSelection widget. But of course you will disagree with me.

In some directories it takes the Save As dialog a verified 40 minutes to
open. Tab completion is still missing. I still have to use my mouse for
every operation in the layers dialog because no shortcuts work there, etc.
etc.

For me, gimp-2.x is a big step backwards in usability, and I am not alone,
and I still use 1.3 for editing sometimes, and I think it sucks compared
to the power 2.x offers, but at least I can work pretty fast with it.

Many people have voiced their concerns, and I think it's a shame that they
all get ignored.

-- 
The choice of a
  -==- _GNU_
  ==-- _   generation Marc Lehmann
  ---==---(_)__  __   __  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  --==---/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ /  http://schmorp.de/
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-06 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

[EMAIL PROTECTED] ( Marc) (A.) (Lehmann ) writes:

 In some directories it takes the Save As dialog a verified 40
 minutes to open.

You better file a bug report about this then or at least make sure
that there's one filed about it. There have been a couple of changes
that deal with exactly this problem so it would surprise me if the
problem is still there. You better make sure that the relevant people
know about it.

 Tab completion is still missing. I still have to use my mouse for
 every operation in the layers dialog because no shortcuts work
 there, etc.  etc.

How is the layers dialog related to this?

 For me, gimp-2.x is a big step backwards in usability, and I am not
 alone, and I still use 1.3 for editing sometimes, and I think it
 sucks compared to the power 2.x offers, but at least I can work
 pretty fast with it.

Could you elaborate what exactly you are talking about? Where are the
usability problems you are seeing in comparison to gimp 1.3?

 Many people have voiced their concerns, and I think it's a shame
 that they all get ignored.

I don't think we have ever ignored any concerns and I know that the
GTK+ developers do also care a lot about feedback as long as it
doesn't boil down to it sucks. Unfortunately there seems to be a
trend to bitch on other people's work without even trying to propose
better solutions.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-05 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Robert L Krawitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I recall having a lot of problems trying to compile either 2.4 or
 2.6.

There is not much software that is more straight-forward to build than
GTK+. If you have problems to build GTK+, you should ask. But please
don't spread FUD about it being a complex and unsolvable problem.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-05 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Hal V. Engel [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I have also tried installing GTK 2.4 on SuSE 9.1 without success.  I
 have not tried 2.6 yet.  SuSE 9.1 comes with GTK 2.2.4.  Many things
 stop working when GTK 2.4 is installed and it appears that many
 applications would need to be rebuilt to get things working again.

You are doing something wrong then. The GTK+-2.x series provides
binary backward compatibility. Applications compiled against older
versions of glib/pango/gtk+ will continue to work after an upgrade.
There's no need to recompile anything. And this is not just a myth,
it definitely works. I am running a GNOME desktop where almost
everything was built against gtk+-2.4.x. As promised, upgrading to
gtk+-2.6 didn't introduce any problems whatsoever.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-05 Thread Shlomi Fish
On Saturday 05 February 2005 15:15, Sven Neumann wrote:
 Hi,

 Robert L Krawitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  I recall having a lot of problems trying to compile either 2.4 or
  2.6.

 There is not much software that is more straight-forward to build than
 GTK+. If you have problems to build GTK+, you should ask. But please
 don't spread FUD about it being a complex and unsolvable problem.


Sven, I don't believe Mr. Krawitz has been spreading FUD about it. What he 
said was:


I was able to install GTK 2.4 from usr-local-bin.org, but they don't
have 2.6 up at this time.  I recall having a lot of problems trying to
compile either 2.4 or 2.6.


He did not say it may necessary be the case, just that it was the case for 
him. I don't consider what he said as FUD-spreading.

Regards,

Shlomi Fish

-
Shlomi Fish  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Homepage:http://www.shlomifish.org/

Knuth is not God! It took him two days to build the Roman Empire.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-05 Thread Robert L Krawitz
   From: Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 15:16:56 +0100

   Hal V. Engel [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I have also tried installing GTK 2.4 on SuSE 9.1 without success.  I
have not tried 2.6 yet.  SuSE 9.1 comes with GTK 2.2.4.  Many things
stop working when GTK 2.4 is installed and it appears that many
applications would need to be rebuilt to get things working again.

   You are doing something wrong then. The GTK+-2.x series provides
   binary backward compatibility. Applications compiled against older
   versions of glib/pango/gtk+ will continue to work after an upgrade.
   There's no need to recompile anything. And this is not just a myth,
   it definitely works. I am running a GNOME desktop where almost
   everything was built against gtk+-2.4.x. As promised, upgrading to
   gtk+-2.6 didn't introduce any problems whatsoever.

This doesn't mean that there's necessarily a problem with GTK+ per se,
but it does seem to be a bit tricky to compile GTK on SUSE 9.1.  In
particular, take a look at the .srpm's from the SUSE distribution to
see if there are any patches included, and make sure to apply those to
the 2.6 tarballs.

SUSE is a great distribution, but they do have a somewhat unfortunate
habit of making changes that don't always preserve compatibility.  I
ran across an example recently with a (small) change they made to Qt
and an accompanying change to KDE that would have made it impossible
to run their KDE RPM's against Qt built from Trolltech's sources.  Not
saying that that's the case here, but it should be investigated.

There could be plenty of other reasons why, of course.  But it isn't
FUD for people to report that they're having problems compiling and
running GTK 2.6 against a particular distribution.  Multiple people
reporting the same thing suggests there's an issue, but doesn't
pinpoint where it is.

-- 
Robert Krawitz [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Tall Clubs International  --  http://www.tall.org/ or 1-888-IM-TALL-2
Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-05 Thread Robert L Krawitz
BTW, I just dropped a note to James Ogley (maintainer of
usr-local-bin) to see if he has any plans to upgrade his stuff to gtk
2.6.

-- 
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-05 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Robert L Krawitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 There could be plenty of other reasons why, of course.  But it isn't
 FUD for people to report that they're having problems compiling and
 running GTK 2.6 against a particular distribution.  Multiple people
 reporting the same thing suggests there's an issue, but doesn't
 pinpoint where it is.

I am only asking that you show us what problems exactly you have when
building gtk+, so that we can help you to solve them. Saying that
there are a lot of problems doesn't help at all and is what I would
consider spreading FUD. We are trying to move GIMP development along
and we will need to use GTK+-2.6 to make this happen. So it should be
our goal to make sure that all developers update glib and gtk+.
Telling them that this update will cause problems, but not saying what
problems these are, doesn't help anyone.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-05 Thread Shlomi Fish
On Friday 04 February 2005 07:44, Shlomi Fish wrote:
 On Thursday 03 February 2005 21:12, Sven Neumann wrote:
  Mitch, me and probably others already have some changes pending that
  would introduce a dependency on gtk+-2.6. So far we have usually
  waited until a package reaches debian testing before depending on it.
  Since gtk+-2.6 only just yesterday appeared in debian unstable, this
  would mean waiting at least another nine days. Now I wonder if that's
  worth it. I'd rather ask you to speak up if you want to hack on GIMP
  CVS and a dependency on gtk+-2.6 would cause you serious problems. If
  noone objects, we will bump the minimum required gtk+ version this
  weekend.

 I haven't tried to compile gtk-2.6 for Mandrake yet. At the worst case, I
 can install it from source using ./configure --prefix=.


Well, now I tried to compile and install gtk-2.6 on Mandrake 10.1. I used the 
Cooker Source RPMs, and compiled them each in turn. gtk+-2.6.0 required the 
new version of pango, which in turn required the new version of automake 1.8 
to be compiled. The compilation of the automake 1.8 RPM took a long time due 
to the fact that all the tests was run. There's a macro in the beginning of 
the RPM SPEC that instructs the tests not to run, so I suggest people either 
set it to false or install the automake-1.8 compiled RPM.

That was my main problem. After that everything mostly went well. When I 
installed the gtk RPMs, I got a file conflict with one of the files of 
gtk-engines2, so I had to use rpm --replacefiles. Compiling the new 
gtk-engines2 RPM worked, but trying to install it ended up in other packages 
that required it as a dependency, so I did not go into there.

Regards,

Shlomi Fish

-
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Homepage:http://www.shlomifish.org/

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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-05 Thread Robert L Krawitz
   From: Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 18:36:29 +0100

   Robert L Krawitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

There could be plenty of other reasons why, of course.  But it isn't
FUD for people to report that they're having problems compiling and
running GTK 2.6 against a particular distribution.  Multiple people
reporting the same thing suggests there's an issue, but doesn't
pinpoint where it is.

   I am only asking that you show us what problems exactly you have when
   building gtk+, so that we can help you to solve them. Saying that
   there are a lot of problems doesn't help at all and is what I would
   consider spreading FUD. We are trying to move GIMP development along
   and we will need to use GTK+-2.6 to make this happen. So it should be
   our goal to make sure that all developers update glib and gtk+.
   Telling them that this update will cause problems, but not saying what
   problems these are, doesn't help anyone.

It's been a while since I tried it (when GIMP 2.2 came out), so I
don't remember for certain what happened.  It may have even been
something getting confused about /usr vs. /usr/local (in which case it
wouldn't be a GTK problem at all), but I honestly don't remember.

-- 
Robert Krawitz [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Tall Clubs International  --  http://www.tall.org/ or 1-888-IM-TALL-2
Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Project lead for Gimp Print   --http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net

Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-05 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Well, now I tried to compile and install gtk-2.6 on Mandrake 10.1. I
 used the Cooker Source RPMs, and compiled them each in
 turn. gtk+-2.6.0 required the new version of pango, which in turn
 required the new version of automake 1.8 to be compiled. The
 compilation of the automake 1.8 RPM took a long time due to the fact
 that all the tests was run. There's a macro in the beginning of the
 RPM SPEC that instructs the tests not to run, so I suggest people
 either set it to false or install the automake-1.8 compiled RPM.

You shouldn't need automake at all. It is even a very bad idea to run
automake / autoconf in a released source tarball. Doing so changes
files that you are not supposed to change. If the src RPM actually
runs automake, someone should fix it.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-05 Thread Nathan Summers
On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 18:36:29 +0100, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi,
 
 Robert L Krawitz [EMAIL PROTECTED]  writes:
 
  There could be plenty of other reasons why, of course.  But it isn't
  FUD for people to report that they're having problems compiling and
  running GTK 2.6 against a particular distribution.  Multiple people
  reporting the same thing suggests there's an issue, but doesn't
  pinpoint where it is.
 
 I am only asking that you show us what problems exactly you have when
 building gtk+, so that we can help you to solve them. Saying that
 there are a lot of problems doesn't help at all and is what I would
 consider spreading FUD.


This still doesn't meet the definition of spreading FUD.  To spread
FUD you must:
1) Either lie or deliberately misrepresent the truth (this includes
selective retelling of the facts)
2) In one or more fora such that a large number of poorly-informed
people are reached
3) In an attempt to keep people from using a competitor's product
(esp. to keep them from switching from your product.)

The reports from SUSE users that they have had problems upgrading gtk
don't meet any of the three requirements.  Thus they are not spreading
FUD.  You don't get to redefine the term. :)

 We are trying to move GIMP development along
 and we will need to use GTK+-2.6 to make this happen. So it should be
 our goal to make sure that all developers update glib and gtk+.
 Telling them that this update will cause problems, but not saying what
 problems these are, doesn't help anyone.

You asked if going to 2.6 would cause a problem for them, and they
indicated it would.  They didn't ask you for any help in solving their
distro woes, so it was wrong for you to criticize them for that.
(especially by using such a loaded term.)

I especially find it amusing that you consider the vagueness of the
SUSE user's descriptions to be a problem because you've been much less
clear in this thread than they have.  Here is a perfect example:

 Mitch, me and probably others already have some changes pending that
 would introduce a dependency on gtk+-2.6.

What exactly are these changes?  Why are they so critical?  By your
(unusual) definition, you've been spreading FUD about gtk 2.4, saying
that it is inadequate without saying what the problems are, which, as
you so astutely observe, doesn't help anyone.

For the record, I have no problems with using 2.4, especially if
they've fixed the disaster that was the 2.4 file selector dialog. 
(Why do I say disaster?  Because it was _less usable_ for me than the
original dialog, but ymmv.)

Rockwalrus
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-05 Thread Carol Spears
hello,
On Sat, Feb 05, 2005 at 06:36:29PM +0100, Sven Neumann wrote:
 
 I am only asking that you show us what problems exactly you have when
 building gtk+, so that we can help you to solve them. Saying that
 there are a lot of problems doesn't help at all and is what I would
 consider spreading FUD. We are trying to move GIMP development along
 and we will need to use GTK+-2.6 to make this happen. So it should be
 our goal to make sure that all developers update glib and gtk+.
 Telling them that this update will cause problems, but not saying what
 problems these are, doesn't help anyone.
 
i heard earlier this week that gtk+-2.6 is available on debian sid now.
none of the sources i checked had it and still today, an apt-get update
and still only gtk+-2.4 is available.

perhaps you could share the debian source of gtk+-2.6?

carol

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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-05 Thread Nathan Summers
On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 13:53:27 -0800, Carol Spears [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 i heard earlier this week that gtk+-2.6 is available on debian sid now.
 none of the sources i checked had it and still today, an apt-get update
 and still only gtk+-2.4 is available.
 
 perhaps you could share the debian source of gtk+-2.6?

http://packages.debian.org/unstable/libs/libgtk2.0-0

Rockwalrus
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-05 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Nathan Summers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 This still doesn't meet the definition of spreading FUD.  To spread
 FUD you must:
 1) Either lie or deliberately misrepresent the truth (this includes
 selective retelling of the facts)
 2) In one or more fora such that a large number of poorly-informed
 people are reached
 3) In an attempt to keep people from using a competitor's product
 (esp. to keep them from switching from your product.)

If that's the definition of the term, I didn't mean to use it.

 You asked if going to 2.6 would cause a problem for them, and they
 indicated it would. 

No, they didn't. They said that they have had problems updating gtk+
in the past. So far noone has expressed any actual problems updating
glib and gtk+ to version 2.6.

 What exactly are these changes?  Why are they so critical?

You certainky compiled GIMP and noticed the warnings that say FIXME
as soon as we depend on GTK+ 2.6. There are also a couple of bug
reports that have been postponed since they need GTK+ 2.6 API to fix
them. We have already delayed the GTK+ 2.6 dependency for quite a
while. I don't think it's adequate to wait much longer.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-05 Thread Hal V. Engel
I probably should have said that I believed that the problems I had 
with GTK 2.4 were likely caused by the RPMs I was using (user local 
bin) as I had not tried building it myself.  So this is a SuSE 9.1 
specific problem.   There have been some rather lengthly discussions 
about this on a SuSE forum that I frequent and some users are able to 
install this using these RPMs with no problems and others encounter 
significant problems.  It appears to be about 50/50 odds.   No one 
seems to know why.  

Also I was not asking that you stop moving forward as I specificly said 
in my earlier note to not worry about my problem and to go forward.  I 
will try building 2.6 from source in the next few days and if I run 
into a problem I will ask for assistance.

-- 
Hal V. Engel


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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-05 Thread Robert L Krawitz
   From: Hal V. Engel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 17:46:17 -0800

   I probably should have said that I believed that the problems I
   had=20 with GTK 2.4 were likely caused by the RPMs I was using
   (user local=20 bin) as I had not tried building it myself.  So this
   is a SuSE 9.1=20 specific problem.  There have been some rather
   lengthly discussions=20 about this on a SuSE forum that I frequent
   and some users are able to=20 install this using these RPMs with no
   problems and others encounter=20 significant problems.  It appears
   to be about 50/50 odds.  No one=20 seems to know why. =20

Interesting.  I had no problem with the usr-local-bin RPM's for GTK
2.4.  BTW, are you running KDE?  One thing that comes to mind is that
by default in SUSE KDE installs a GTK theme; you can try turning that
off by creating a file (zero length is fine) in your home directory
named .no-qtrc-to-gtkrc-mapping (no quotes, of course).

As it happens, I'd really like to run GTK 2.6, if for no other reason
than the horrible browser dialog in 2.4, and perhaps it's worth trying
again.

   Also I was not asking that you stop moving forward as I specificly
   said=20 in my earlier note to not worry about my problem and to go
   forward.  I=20 will try building 2.6 from source in the next few
   days and if I run=20 into a problem I will ask for assistance.

Agreed -- I consider Sven's note to be an FYI and I certainly don't
think that my comment should have been interpreted as asking Sven not
to do this.  It was just a comment since I noticed other people using
SUSE 9.1 having problems with this.

-- 
Robert Krawitz [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Tall Clubs International  --  http://www.tall.org/ or 1-888-IM-TALL-2
Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Project lead for Gimp Print   --http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net

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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-05 Thread Carol Spears
On Thu, Feb 03, 2005 at 08:12:18PM +0100, Sven Neumann wrote:
 
 Mitch, me and probably others already have some changes pending that
 would introduce a dependency on gtk+-2.6. So far we have usually
 waited until a package reaches debian testing before depending on it.
 Since gtk+-2.6 only just yesterday appeared in debian unstable, this
 would mean waiting at least another nine days. Now I wonder if that's
 worth it. I'd rather ask you to speak up if you want to hack on GIMP
 CVS and a dependency on gtk+-2.6 would cause you serious problems. If
 noone objects, we will bump the minimum required gtk+ version this
 weekend.
 
i am curious to see what changes having gtk+-2.6 bring to poor gimp.
many of the problems with the 2.4 fileselector get shoved off because of
this great thing called gtk+-2.6.  can we see a screen shot or even
several of the new things?

about the dependency, i just spent the better part of a day wrestling to
get it installed on debian.  upgrading to sid seemed to be the solution
but even then, you have to use the right sources as this newer gtk+ is
not making it to all of them.

before i upgraded to sid, i tried to build it and its dependencies from
the tarball.  this attempt was abandoned when the pango tarball install
broke after running make install.  i have yet to fix a build problem
that occurs during installation on my own.

i guess that i am of average abilities for installing software; an
average that is slightly better (usually) because i am building on
debian.  if i had problems building pango, i think that several others
(especially those using other distributions) will have many more
problems building the new gtk and its dependents.  on the other hand, it 
will slow down things in bugzilla (maybe) if not so many people are using 
the cvs gimp and the developers will have more time to get ahead with 
whatever those great and wonderful things are.

btw, i had to use gimp-1.2 the other day (the broken color tools which
were fixed right away, thanks) and let me tell you this, totally from a
user perspective.  looks and thumbnails are one thing -- a tool that
works, this is a far better thing.  it was a pure joy to have a file
selector that worked with you and was smart.  sure, i missed the
thumbnail but i actually accomplished the work i needed to do much more
quickly and efficiently.  and got to where i needed to go on my computer
much more quickly without the easy to become stale bookmarks.

meanwhile, gimp is compiling now with gtk+-2.6 -- i am curious to see
what i get from all the initial trouble of installing it.

thanks for your work, everyone.

carol

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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-05 Thread Manish Singh
On Sat, Feb 05, 2005 at 02:49:43PM -0500, Robert L Krawitz wrote:
From: Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 18:36:29 +0100
 
Robert L Krawitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
 There could be plenty of other reasons why, of course.  But it isn't
 FUD for people to report that they're having problems compiling and
 running GTK 2.6 against a particular distribution.  Multiple people
 reporting the same thing suggests there's an issue, but doesn't
 pinpoint where it is.
 
I am only asking that you show us what problems exactly you have when
building gtk+, so that we can help you to solve them. Saying that
there are a lot of problems doesn't help at all and is what I would
consider spreading FUD. We are trying to move GIMP development along
and we will need to use GTK+-2.6 to make this happen. So it should be
our goal to make sure that all developers update glib and gtk+.
Telling them that this update will cause problems, but not saying what
problems these are, doesn't help anyone.
 
 It's been a while since I tried it (when GIMP 2.2 came out), so I
 don't remember for certain what happened.  It may have even been
 something getting confused about /usr vs. /usr/local (in which case it
 wouldn't be a GTK problem at all), but I honestly don't remember.

Fairly likely. Mixing libraries and headers in system paths often leads
to trouble.

There's always the option of sticking things into non-system dirs (e.g.,
$HOME/devel) using ./configure --prefix, and setting PATH,
LD_LIBRARY_PATH, and PKG_CONFIG_PATH. On several machines I use, I stick
the HEAD versions of glib, gtk+ etc., along with HEAD gimp there.

Doing this makes it much harder to do whatever catastrophic screwups
people do that messes up their working system. One can install the new
gtk+ just for gimp and be fine.

-Yosh
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-04 Thread Hal V. Engel
On Thursday 03 February 2005 23:27, Tino Schwarze wrote:
snip
 
 Just for your consideration: I failed to install GTK 2.6 on a SuSE 
9.1
 machine. A lot of weir things happened (fonts were not being found, 
gdm
 crashed, some unresolved symbol XineramaIsActive etc.). I had to 
remove
 GTK 2.6 and GLIB 2.6, to get a usable system again.
 
 I'm not a developer, so this is not an objection, just a note.
 
 Bye, Tino.

I have also tried installing GTK 2.4 on SuSE 9.1 without success.  I 
have not tried 2.6 yet.  SuSE 9.1 comes with GTK 2.2.4.  Many things 
stop working when GTK 2.4 is installed and it appears that many 
applications would need to be rebuilt to get things working again.  I 
am considering installing SuSE 9.2 as it comes with GTK 2.4.  Wish 
there was a better way to deal with these libraries.  But again don't 
stop moving forward on  my account.
  
-- 
Hal V. Engel


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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-04 Thread Robert L Krawitz
   From: Hal V. Engel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 13:24:30 -0800

   --nextPart10261261.yohHSzoVkz
   Content-Type: text/plain;
 charset=iso-8859-1
   Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
   Content-Disposition: inline

   On Thursday 03 February 2005 23:27, Tino Schwarze wrote:
   snip
   =20
Just for your consideration: I failed to install GTK 2.6 on a SuSE=20
   9.1
machine. A lot of weir things happened (fonts were not being found,=20
   gdm
crashed, some unresolved symbol XineramaIsActive etc.). I had to=20
   remove
GTK 2.6 and GLIB 2.6, to get a usable system again.
   =20
I'm not a developer, so this is not an objection, just a note.
   =20
Bye, Tino.

   I have also tried installing GTK 2.4 on SuSE 9.1 without success.  I=20
   have not tried 2.6 yet.  SuSE 9.1 comes with GTK 2.2.4.  Many things=20
   stop working when GTK 2.4 is installed and it appears that many=20
   applications would need to be rebuilt to get things working again.  I=20
   am considering installing SuSE 9.2 as it comes with GTK 2.4.  Wish=20
   there was a better way to deal with these libraries.  But again don't=20
   stop moving forward on  my account.

I was able to install GTK 2.4 from usr-local-bin.org, but they don't
have 2.6 up at this time.  I recall having a lot of problems trying to
compile either 2.4 or 2.6.

-- 
Robert Krawitz [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Tall Clubs International  --  http://www.tall.org/ or 1-888-IM-TALL-2
Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Project lead for Gimp Print   --http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net

Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works.
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[Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-03 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

yesterday I started to port some code in GIMP CVS to functionality
that is only in glib-2.6. So we are now depending on glib = 2.6.0.
glib-2.6 has been packaged for most distros for quite a while so that
dependency shouldn't cause any problems.

Mitch, me and probably others already have some changes pending that
would introduce a dependency on gtk+-2.6. So far we have usually
waited until a package reaches debian testing before depending on it.
Since gtk+-2.6 only just yesterday appeared in debian unstable, this
would mean waiting at least another nine days. Now I wonder if that's
worth it. I'd rather ask you to speak up if you want to hack on GIMP
CVS and a dependency on gtk+-2.6 would cause you serious problems. If
noone objects, we will bump the minimum required gtk+ version this
weekend.


Sven

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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-03 Thread Shlomi Fish
On Thursday 03 February 2005 21:12, Sven Neumann wrote:
 Hi,

 yesterday I started to port some code in GIMP CVS to functionality
 that is only in glib-2.6. So we are now depending on glib = 2.6.0.
 glib-2.6 has been packaged for most distros for quite a while so that
 dependency shouldn't cause any problems.


I should note that Mandrake 10.1 (much less older releases) does not ship with 
glib-2.6. I was able to build the glib-2.6 SRPMS from Mandrake Cooker without 
too many problems, though.

 Mitch, me and probably others already have some changes pending that
 would introduce a dependency on gtk+-2.6. So far we have usually
 waited until a package reaches debian testing before depending on it.
 Since gtk+-2.6 only just yesterday appeared in debian unstable, this
 would mean waiting at least another nine days. Now I wonder if that's
 worth it. I'd rather ask you to speak up if you want to hack on GIMP
 CVS and a dependency on gtk+-2.6 would cause you serious problems. If
 noone objects, we will bump the minimum required gtk+ version this
 weekend.


I haven't tried to compile gtk-2.6 for Mandrake yet. At the worst case, I can 
install it from source using ./configure --prefix=. 

Regards,

Shlomi Fish

-
Shlomi Fish  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Homepage:http://www.shlomifish.org/

Knuth is not God! It took him two days to build the Roman Empire.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] CVS HEAD dependency on glib-2.6 / gtk+-2.6

2005-02-03 Thread Tino Schwarze
On Fri, Feb 04, 2005 at 07:44:09AM +0200, Shlomi Fish wrote:

  yesterday I started to port some code in GIMP CVS to functionality
  that is only in glib-2.6. So we are now depending on glib = 2.6.0.
  glib-2.6 has been packaged for most distros for quite a while so that
  dependency shouldn't cause any problems.
 
 I should note that Mandrake 10.1 (much less older releases) does not ship 
 with 
 glib-2.6. I was able to build the glib-2.6 SRPMS from Mandrake Cooker without 
 too many problems, though.
 
  Mitch, me and probably others already have some changes pending that
  would introduce a dependency on gtk+-2.6. So far we have usually
  waited until a package reaches debian testing before depending on it.
  Since gtk+-2.6 only just yesterday appeared in debian unstable, this
  would mean waiting at least another nine days. Now I wonder if that's
  worth it. I'd rather ask you to speak up if you want to hack on GIMP
  CVS and a dependency on gtk+-2.6 would cause you serious problems. If
  noone objects, we will bump the minimum required gtk+ version this
  weekend.
 
 I haven't tried to compile gtk-2.6 for Mandrake yet. At the worst case, I can 
 install it from source using ./configure --prefix=. 

Just for your consideration: I failed to install GTK 2.6 on a SuSE 9.1
machine. A lot of weir things happened (fonts were not being found, gdm
crashed, some unresolved symbol XineramaIsActive etc.). I had to remove
GTK 2.6 and GLIB 2.6, to get a usable system again.

I'm not a developer, so this is not an objection, just a note.

Bye, Tino.

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