Re: [Gimp-developer] re. suggestions

[SorinN]

;) indeed funny problem ...

I remember the time when Adobe Photoshop was not better than Corel
Photopaint and Illustrator was way below Corel Draw (around Corel Suite 6)
- then companring the perfect logic (and very flexible) GUI from Corel
Suite (not to mention general app. settings full of option versus
Photoshop), yes Photoshop  and Illustrator looks very user unfriendly in
terms of GUI.

About  "user friendly" GIMP >> well any software has it's own visual logic.
For use a program like GIMP, users will have to adapt or they will leave.
Is so simple. The most important thing is the whole set of features. Coming
from Photopaint, Draw, Adobe - I've adapted myself  to GIMP in 2 or 3
days,I think that "user friendly" is a false problem  May be a problem of
that user which  can't adapt to a GUI with  icons for on-screen-tools and a
menu with quite clear descriptive names of functions / features.

So where is in fact the "unfriendly user friendly" problem ? ..

btw: garbageware sounds funny too  >>  in one of my trips in China ,, some
friends from a partner company (Shenzhen Lady Commodity) asked me to help
them with a poster for a factory ..5.50m / 3.50m. The only computer
available was a dual core duo with 4gb or RAM and a video card ATI Radeon
HD 5570 with 1GB DDR3 ..believe me or not, Photoshop under Windows crashed
constantly yelling about the lack of memory, same for Illustrator. The only
solution was to install Ubuntu on a new harddrive and all was done with
GIMP ...slowly for each image operation, but at least no crashes - the
final file was about 2GB.

Many young padawans will trow words against GIMP until the end of time so
we will love to read such amusing discussions for some time from now ..

​​
2 beers or not to beer ? - this is the real question.

2016-03-30 21:10 GMT+03:00 C R :

> >
> > I decided against sugarcoating for a reason: this is exactly what
> > unhappy users tell us. Verbatim.
>
>
> That seems more like a reason NOT to put it on the site. ;)
>
> -C
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Re: [Gimp-developer] re. suggestions

[C R]

>
> I decided against sugarcoating for a reason: this is exactly what
> unhappy users tell us. Verbatim.


That seems more like a reason NOT to put it on the site. ;)

-C
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Re: [Gimp-developer] re. suggestions

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 3:08 PM, C R wrote:
> Small phrase-change recommendation:
>
> I dislike this like in the FAQ:
> "Why can’t you just copy Adobe Photoshop to make GIMP usable?"
>
> Reason: GIMP is not the least bit unusable, and this question makes it sound
> like the general consensus is it's garbageware. ;P
>
> Recommended re-phrase:
> Why can’t you just copy Adobe Photoshop to make GIMP more "user friendly"?

I decided against sugarcoating for a reason: this is exactly what
unhappy users tell us. Verbatim.

Alex
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Re: [Gimp-developer] re. suggestions

[C R]

Small phrase-change recommendation:

I dislike this like in the FAQ:
"Why can’t you just copy Adobe Photoshop to make GIMP usable?"

Reason: GIMP is not the least bit unusable, and this question makes it
sound like the general consensus is it's garbageware. ;P

Recommended re-phrase:
Why can’t you just copy Adobe Photoshop to make GIMP more "user friendly"?

My 2p.

On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Pat David  wrote:

>
> http://www.gimp.org/docs/userfaq.html#are-you-trying-to-develop-a-photoshop-killer-app
> On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 3:24 AM Alexandre Prokoudine <
> alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 4:12 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:
> >
> > > Like it or not - GIMP is an alternative program to (and in much the
> same
> > niche
> > > as) Adobe Photoshop. We should be aiming to make people use GIMP (or a
> > different
> > > open-source program) instead of or at least in addition to Photoshop.
> So
> > let's
> > > stop beating around the bush and admit it.
> >
> > FAQ specifically covers this. Please read it.
> >
> > Alex
> > ___
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> > List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org
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> > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
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> >
> --
> Pat David
> https://pixls.us
> http://blog.patdavid.net
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Re: [Gimp-developer] re. suggestions

[Pat David]

http://www.gimp.org/docs/userfaq.html#are-you-trying-to-develop-a-photoshop-killer-app
On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 3:24 AM Alexandre Prokoudine <
alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 4:12 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:
>
> > Like it or not - GIMP is an alternative program to (and in much the same
> niche
> > as) Adobe Photoshop. We should be aiming to make people use GIMP (or a
> different
> > open-source program) instead of or at least in addition to Photoshop. So
> let's
> > stop beating around the bush and admit it.
>
> FAQ specifically covers this. Please read it.
>
> Alex
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Re: [Gimp-developer] re. suggestions

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 4:12 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:

> Like it or not - GIMP is an alternative program to (and in much the same niche
> as) Adobe Photoshop. We should be aiming to make people use GIMP (or a 
> different
> open-source program) instead of or at least in addition to Photoshop. So let's
> stop beating around the bush and admit it.

FAQ specifically covers this. Please read it.

Alex
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Re: [Gimp-developer] re. suggestions

[C R]

Hi Shlomi Fish. Thanks for weighing in on it.

I do not feel the GIMP project is a company in the sense that the quote
you've posted suggests.
I feel we are more a community of content contributors, users, and
developers.

For example, the GIMP project is not subject to the same market forces as a
company, or indeed most proprietary software providers are.
It is not kill or be killed for us, and our "product" will exist and be
useful long after the "company" has gone (such is the power of Free and
Open Source Software), because anyone can pick up the code and continue the
work. If Adobe dies, Photoshop dies.

Do we want people to use our software?
Of course we do.
Do we offer (for free) a product that can replace Photoshop?
Yes, we do that as well.

But we do not need to play the feature-parity competition game with
Photoshop, because we are not selling anything.

Directly from the GIMP license:

"GIMP is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY
WARRANTY;
without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A
PARTICULAR PURPOSE."

So to say we offer GIMP to be a replacement for Photoshop is actually not
something that we do.

GIMP is an image manipulation program that can replace Photoshop, but "to
replace Photoshop" is not its purpose.

Do people use it to replace Photoshop in their work? Definitely.
I think there's much more power in that than us telling people to replace
Photoshop with GIMP.

We already show what both hobbyists and professionals use GIMP for, and
that's good enough.

It's all a bit of a moot point, since the question is from a new user, and
not someone switching from Photoshop.
So in this case more than any other GIMP is not even being used as a
replacement for Photoshop. :)

It will serve them well as a photo/graphics editor, which is what it was
designed to be, not merely a replacement for a single (albeit very popular)
proprietary software package.

My 2p.

-C













On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 2:12 PM, Shlomi Fish  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> my email to the list did not arrive, so I'm sending it again while
> excluding
> all hyperlinks.
>
> Regards,
>
> Shlomi Fish
>
>
> Hi C R!
>
> See below for my response:
>
> On Sun, 27 Mar 2016 23:26:14 +0100
> C R  wrote:
>
> > >
> > > To C.R.:  I think your proposed change to the download page (adding"93
> MB"
> > > just above the download button for GIMP for Windows) is easy, simple,
> and
> > > clear.  I recommend it highly!
> > >
> >
> > We used to list the file size on the download buttons. Apparently the
> > feature didn't get added to the new web layout (which is much better than
> > our old one in almost every way possible) I'm sure it's just an
> oversight.
> >
> >
> > To Alex:  What do I suggest you do about it?  I thought that the features
> > > of the latest version of Photoshop could be listed and tried, and any
> > > features that anyone likes in any other programs, as well as original
> > > ideas, and that GIMP could be presented so that even the relatively
> > > inexperienced (like me!) could easily and quickly understand that those
> > > useful features are available, what they are, and how to find and
> > > conveniently use them.
> >
> >
> > Where on the Adobe website does it list the features of Photoshop
> compared
> > to GIMP?
> > GIMP is not made to be competition with Photoshop, and conversely,
> > Photoshop is not made to be in competition with GIMP. They are both
> highly
> > sophisticated image editors, but they are different programs. They are
> > simply built for similar purposes.This is why you will not see a
> > feature-comparison done on either website.
> >
>
> Well, it seems that "Joel on Software" has recommended the opposite
> approach
> (and I tend to agree with him) here:
>
> Quoting from it:
>
> < QUOTE >
>
> When you're trying to get people to switch from a competitor to your
> product,
> you need to understand barriers to entry, and you need to understand them
> a lot
> better than you think, or people won't switch and you'll be waiting tables.
>
> In an earlier letter, I wrote about the difference between two kinds of
> companies: the Ben and Jerry's kind of company which is trying to take over
> from established competition, versus the Amazon.com kind of company which
> is
> trying a "land grab" in a new field where there is no established
> competition.
> When I worked on Microsoft Excel in the early 90's, it was a card-carrying
> member of the Ben and Jerry's camp. Lotus 123, the established competitor,
> had
> an almost complete monopoly in the market for spreadsheets. Sure, there
> were
> new users buying computers who started out with Excel, but for the most
> part,
> if Microsoft wanted to sell spreadsheets, they were going to have to get
> people
> to switch.
>
> The most important thing to do when you're in this position is to admit it.
> Some companies can't even do this. The management at my last employer,
> 

Re: [Gimp-developer] re. suggestions

[Shlomi Fish]

Hi all,

my email to the list did not arrive, so I'm sending it again while excluding
all hyperlinks.

Regards,

Shlomi Fish


Hi C R!

See below for my response:

On Sun, 27 Mar 2016 23:26:14 +0100
C R  wrote:

> >
> > To C.R.:  I think your proposed change to the download page (adding"93 MB"
> > just above the download button for GIMP for Windows) is easy, simple, and
> > clear.  I recommend it highly!
> >  
> 
> We used to list the file size on the download buttons. Apparently the
> feature didn't get added to the new web layout (which is much better than
> our old one in almost every way possible) I'm sure it's just an oversight.
> 
> 
> To Alex:  What do I suggest you do about it?  I thought that the features
> > of the latest version of Photoshop could be listed and tried, and any
> > features that anyone likes in any other programs, as well as original
> > ideas, and that GIMP could be presented so that even the relatively
> > inexperienced (like me!) could easily and quickly understand that those
> > useful features are available, what they are, and how to find and
> > conveniently use them.  
> 
> 
> Where on the Adobe website does it list the features of Photoshop compared
> to GIMP?
> GIMP is not made to be competition with Photoshop, and conversely,
> Photoshop is not made to be in competition with GIMP. They are both highly
> sophisticated image editors, but they are different programs. They are
> simply built for similar purposes.This is why you will not see a
> feature-comparison done on either website.
> 

Well, it seems that "Joel on Software" has recommended the opposite approach
(and I tend to agree with him) here:

Quoting from it:

< QUOTE >

When you're trying to get people to switch from a competitor to your product,
you need to understand barriers to entry, and you need to understand them a lot
better than you think, or people won't switch and you'll be waiting tables.

In an earlier letter, I wrote about the difference between two kinds of
companies: the Ben and Jerry's kind of company which is trying to take over
from established competition, versus the Amazon.com kind of company which is
trying a "land grab" in a new field where there is no established competition.
When I worked on Microsoft Excel in the early 90's, it was a card-carrying
member of the Ben and Jerry's camp. Lotus 123, the established competitor, had
an almost complete monopoly in the market for spreadsheets. Sure, there were
new users buying computers who started out with Excel, but for the most part,
if Microsoft wanted to sell spreadsheets, they were going to have to get people
to switch.

The most important thing to do when you're in this position is to admit it.
Some companies can't even do this. The management at my last employer, Juno,
was unwilling to admit that AOL had already achieved a dominant position. They
spoke of the "millions of people not yet online." They said that "in every
market, there is room for two players: Time and Newsweek, Coke and Pepsi, etc."
The only thing they wouldn't say is "we have to get people to switch away from
AOL." I'm not sure what they were afraid of. Perhaps they thought they were
afraid to "wake up the sleeping bear". When one of Juno's star programmers (no,
not me) had the chutzpah, the unmitigated gall to ask a simple question at a
company meeting: "Why aren't we doing more to get AOL users to switch?" they
hauled him off, screamed at him for an hour, and denied him a promotion he had
been promised. (Guess who took his talent elsewhere?)

There's nothing wrong with being in a market that has established competition.
In fact, even if your product is radically new, like eBay, you probably have
competition: garage sales! Don't stress too much. If your product is better in
some way, you actually have a pretty good chance of getting people to switch.
But you have to think strategically about it, and thinking strategically means
thinking one step beyond the obvious.

< END OF QUOTE >

Like it or not - GIMP is an alternative program to (and in much the same niche
as) Adobe Photoshop. We should be aiming to make people use GIMP (or a different
open-source program) instead of or at least in addition to Photoshop. So let's
stop beating around the bush and admit it.

Now, if Photoshop were
FOSS and ran fine on
most common open source OSes, then it wouldn't be a major issue. But it's
proprietary software, and runs only on Windows and Mac OS X, and costs a
lot of money, and has many other issues that you mentioned below, and so the
situation is not ideal.

> Since you are new to both programs, I recommend GIMP. The time you would
> spend learning Photoshop is about the same as the time it takes to learn
> GIMP.
> 
> For your effort, get these advantages:
> 1. You get a software application that will dutifully serve your
> photo-editing needs, for free, for both professional and hobbyist uses
> without limitation.
> 2. You get free updates, and will never 

Re: [Gimp-developer] re. suggestions

[C R]

>
> To C.R.:  I think your proposed change to the download page (adding"93 MB"
> just above the download button for GIMP for Windows) is easy, simple, and
> clear.  I recommend it highly!
>

We used to list the file size on the download buttons. Apparently the
feature didn't get added to the new web layout (which is much better than
our old one in almost every way possible) I'm sure it's just an oversight.


To Alex:  What do I suggest you do about it?  I thought that the features
> of the latest version of Photoshop could be listed and tried, and any
> features that anyone likes in any other programs, as well as original
> ideas, and that GIMP could be presented so that even the relatively
> inexperienced (like me!) could easily and quickly understand that those
> useful features are available, what they are, and how to find and
> conveniently use them.


Where on the Adobe website does it list the features of Photoshop compared
to GIMP?
GIMP is not made to be competition with Photoshop, and conversely,
Photoshop is not made to be in competition with GIMP. They are both highly
sophisticated image editors, but they are different programs. They are
simply built for similar purposes.This is why you will not see a
feature-comparison done on either website.

Since you are new to both programs, I recommend GIMP. The time you would
spend learning Photoshop is about the same as the time it takes to learn
GIMP.

For your effort, get these advantages:
1. You get a software application that will dutifully serve your
photo-editing needs, for free, for both professional and hobbyist uses
without limitation.
2. You get free updates, and will never have to pay any money for GIMP.
3. You will never be bothered by license keys that run out, or other
software imposed DRM protection that gets in the way of your work.
4. You will be able to work on any Desktop OS you choose, be it Linux, Mac,
or Windows, giving you the freedom to choose your working environment and
take your tools with you if you decide to switch.
5. You will have a program that you can modify and re-program for your own
needs when you become an advanced user.
6. You can teach and learn graphic design, and photo editing without
requiring your student(s) or teacher(s) to buy and install locked-down and
expensive proprietary software, or buy software subscriptions.
7. You can participate in a friendly and helpful community that spans many
FOSS (Free and Open Source Software) application projects. Many of whom
will seem like family after a while. :)
8. You will produce graphics in a construction format (.xcf) that can be
given to and edited by anyone using GIMP, for free.
9. You can get live help with your problems on irc channels, and mailing
lists, and get to speak to the developers and other contributors to the
project.

 Additionally, there are numerous forums all over the internet full of
happy GIMP users, and tons of books, manuals, and videos devoted to doing
everything you would like to (both novice and professional) using GIMP.

So, welcome to the community. :)
I recommend starting here:
http://www.gimp.org/tutorials/

Good luck, and if you have questions, feel free to message me directly.
I'll point you in the right direction.
-C



> I wasn't specific because I certainly don't know everything about either
> well-known program!  I've found a 653-page GIMP user manual, which took
> forever to download on this borrowed old Mac laptop.  I was in too much of
> a hurry to read more than about a page of it.  I couldn't find a link that
> would allow me to copy and save the manual file so I might be able to look
> at it later, after I have to return the laptop and when I can't get an
> Internet connection. (Since the laptop got wet (before I borrowed it), the
> screen and image files appear
>  in very startling and frequently changing colors!  This makes it even
> more of a challenge to get good results from image editing very quickly.)
> 
> Places You'll See
> 38 Stunning Photos of Norwegian's Biggest, Baddest Cruise Ship
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/56f8409e22280409d48f4st02vuc
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Re: [Gimp-developer] re. suggestions

[mailrea...@juno.com]

Subject: re. suggestions
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2016 19:32:44 GMT

To C.R.:  I think your proposed change to the download page (adding"93 MB" just 
above the download button for GIMP for Windows) is easy, simple, and clear.  I 
recommend it highly!
To Alex:  What do I suggest you do about it?  I thought that the features of 
the latest version of Photoshop could be listed and tried, and any features 
that anyone likes in any other programs, as well as original ideas, and that 
GIMP could be presented so that even the relatively inexperienced (like me!) 
could easily and quickly understand that those useful features are available, 
what they are, and how to find and conveniently use them.  I wasn't specific 
because I certainly don't know everything about either well-known program!  
I've found a 653-page GIMP user manual, which took forever to download on this 
borrowed old Mac laptop.  I was in too much of a hurry to read more than about 
a page of it.  I couldn't find a link that would allow me to copy and save the 
manual file so I might be able to look at it later, after I have to return the 
laptop and when I can't get an Internet connection. (Since the laptop got wet 
(before I borrowed it), the screen and image files appear 
 in very startling and frequently changing colors!  This makes it even more of 
a challenge to get good results from image editing very quickly.)

Places You'll See
38 Stunning Photos of Norwegian's Biggest, Baddest Cruise Ship
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/56f8409e22280409d48f4st02vuc
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