Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-06-13 Thread C R
Looks good to me, Gez. Nice work. Only thing: I used the table layout to
prevent wrapping which can be confusing/messy when space is confined.

I could probably have used divs instead of table cells, however the table's
structure was useful, guaranteed to work with whatever layout it's dropped
into, and makes sense both in terms of layout and design metaphor (I merely
left out the column headers for download link and description
respectively).

I like your version of the button code better, fwiw.

-C


On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 1:26 AM, Gez lis...@ohweb.com.ar wrote:

 El lun, 01-06-2015 a las 01:04 +0100, C R escribió:
  Thanks for the comments. For reference, the font styling is the same
  that is already deployed throughout the site, the rounded corners
  mimic the download button on the front page with the added requirement
  that our not contain bitmap graphics, and the color scheme is designed
  to fit on with what's there.
 
  As much as possible, I wanted to keep the interface consistent with
  the rest of the site. This avoids the new buttons looking out of place
  as discussed much earlier in this thread.
 
  If you have a cleaner approach that achieves the same effect, feel
  free to submit a patch. I'm not precious about the code.

 Hi,
 A few days ago after your design was implemented I provided a patch that
 cleans up the markup a bit and makes some minor tweaks to the appearance
 of the buttons. The patch wasn't reviewed yet, so I'm leaving this
 message in case somebody wants to take a look and give their opinion.

 http://www.ohweb.com.ar/test/GIMP-download.html

 The main difference is that it doesn't use tables and the links
 themselves are styled instead of wrapping them with divs. I showed this
 to a couple of guys in the IRC channel, and they gave me some useful
 feedback about the size of the fonts.
 It's true that the via HTTP and via BitTorrent labels are a bit
 small, specially if you use a high resolution display, but I tried to
 keep the appearance of your buttons as much as possible.
 Also I kept the over color the rest of the links of the site use. It
 looks ok on the teal background, but it doesn't look so good on the
 orange one.
 Maybe that has to be changed too.

 Thoughts?

 Gez




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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-06-12 Thread Gez
El lun, 01-06-2015 a las 01:04 +0100, C R escribió:
 Thanks for the comments. For reference, the font styling is the same
 that is already deployed throughout the site, the rounded corners
 mimic the download button on the front page with the added requirement
 that our not contain bitmap graphics, and the color scheme is designed
 to fit on with what's there.
 
 As much as possible, I wanted to keep the interface consistent with
 the rest of the site. This avoids the new buttons looking out of place
 as discussed much earlier in this thread. 
 
 If you have a cleaner approach that achieves the same effect, feel
 free to submit a patch. I'm not precious about the code.

Hi, 
A few days ago after your design was implemented I provided a patch that
cleans up the markup a bit and makes some minor tweaks to the appearance
of the buttons. The patch wasn't reviewed yet, so I'm leaving this
message in case somebody wants to take a look and give their opinion.

http://www.ohweb.com.ar/test/GIMP-download.html

The main difference is that it doesn't use tables and the links
themselves are styled instead of wrapping them with divs. I showed this
to a couple of guys in the IRC channel, and they gave me some useful
feedback about the size of the fonts.
It's true that the via HTTP and via BitTorrent labels are a bit
small, specially if you use a high resolution display, but I tried to
keep the appearance of your buttons as much as possible.
Also I kept the over color the rest of the links of the site use. It
looks ok on the teal background, but it doesn't look so good on the
orange one.
Maybe that has to be changed too.

Thoughts?

Gez



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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-06-02 Thread Mukund Sivaraman
The new design looks very good, much better than what was there
previously. Users can quickly find the installer link now.

I suggest a few changes:

* Change This link downloads the GIMP installer for Windows by Jernej
  Simončič via download.gimp.org. to This link downloads the official
  GIMP installer for Windows via download.gimp.org. This is because a
  new user who visits the website may wonder who Jernej is and if his
  builds can be trusted. ender agrees.

* The via HTTP (.exe) and via BitTorrent (.torrent) font sizes are
  too small. I suggest scrapping this 2 shade split. Just use single
  ovals with these texts in the top line's font size:

  - Download GIMP 2.8.14
 directly

  - Download GIMP 2.8.14
  via BitTorrent

  Any user who needs more information can see the associated paragraphs,
  or hover on the buttons to see the links.

* Another thing to add perhaps is: This installer doesn't contain any
  adware, malware or any other bloat. It only contains GIMP. But it
  sounds rather strange to have to state it. We seem to live in such
  times.

Mukund


pgpNMcwnqn8bC.pgp
Description: PGP signature
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-06-01 Thread Michael Schumacher


On 06/02/2015 12:48 AM, Burnell West wrote:

Hi Burnell,

 Do I infer correctly that  a Linux user need not know of or care about 
 BitTorrent using that link?
 If so, is it perhaps confusing to such folk (if any truly exist)?

our download links  for GNU/Linux users are currently more or less a
collection of this is how to use your package management instructions.

There is currently no package that a user could just download and run on
this platform. I know that several such approaches have been out there
(similar in style to Apple disk image .dmg files, IIRC), but I'm unaware
whether any of them is in widespread use, and I don't think we currently
have anyone with the expertise to build a package like this among the
core contributors (I could be wrong about this, though).

I have to admit that I do not fully understand your message, though -
but because of how the downloads page currently works, it is actually a
bit (too) hard for users of one platform to see the downloads for
another, so right now a user on a GNU/Linux system is most likely not
going to see the new downloads button that we're testing for the Windows
downloads, unless they wish to do so and use the show other downloads
link.

An advantage of platforms with package management systems is that
installing a BitTorrent client is just a few clicks or keys away, unlike
on the windows platforms where you have carefully step over the malicous
clients out there (this is a valid ciriticism that we will still have to
address for the Windows variant of our downloads page).


-- 
Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-06-01 Thread Burnell West
Do I infer correctly that  a Linux user need not know of or care about 
BitTorrent using that link?
If so, is it perhaps confusing to such folk (if any truly exist)?

 On May 31, 2015, at 5:06 PM, C R caj...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 No problem. Glad to help.
 
 -C
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-31 Thread C R
Sure, go for it. Let me know if you want/need anything else from me.
Odd that it breaks. I can't get it to break on any of the browsers I'm
using. :)

If you'd let me know which browser is wrapping it, I can have a look at
altering the code.

On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 5:44 PM, Michael Schumacher schum...@gmx.de wrote:



 On 05/31/2015 06:40 PM, C R wrote:
  Michael, could you please elaborate on how the layout breaks, what
 browser
  you are using, etc? It will help me come up with better solutions.
 
  The code validates under HTML5, so I'm unclear as to waht might be
 causing
  the problems.

 The (.torrent) makes the text too long, and the line breaks. This
 overlaps with the via BitTorrent below.

 I'm actually tempted to just go live with the latest version minus the
 (.exe) and (.torrent) in the titles, some minor adjustment to the
 description of the former, and we'll see how people like that.


 --
 Regards,
 Michael
 GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-31 Thread Michael Schumacher


On 05/31/2015 06:49 PM, C R wrote:
 Sure, go for it. Let me know if you want/need anything else from me.
 Odd that it breaks. I can't get it to break on any of the browsers I'm
 using. :)
 
 If you'd let me know which browser is wrapping it, I can have a look at
 altering the code.

Iceweasel 38.0.1


-- 
Regards,
Michael
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-31 Thread C R
It does say via BitTorrent on the teal link.
There's a good case to be made for just listing the torrent file as a
smaller text-link after the orange download button, though. If I had my
way, we would not be listing a torrent at all for windows users, as there
are far too many things that can go wrong for that platform. However, I'm
trying to present a solution that everyone is okay with. Esp the developers
who will, in the end, be applying these patches to the site. Most of the
devs have been supportive of keeping the torrent link (at least as)
prominent as the direct download link.

On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Alan Pater alan.pa...@gmail.com wrote:

 Are people going to read the fine print or just pick their favourite
 colour? Perhaps the second option might read GIMP Torrent.

 On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 7:43 AM, C R caj...@gmail.com wrote:
  I have developed the html for the buttons. A test can be found here:
  http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/
 
  Note I have also changed the text a bit to reflect Michael's latest
  comments: http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/
 
  Note also that the links to not ink to real files, as I have set them to
  the git repository values, which are replaced with the urls on the
 backend.
 
  Comments?
 
  On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 9:32 PM, Michael Schumacher schum...@gmx.de
 wrote:
 
 
 
  On 05/14/2015 08:47 AM, C R wrote:
 
  Hi,
 
   To save retyping, here is the current text:
 
  we do not really have to worry about bandwidth usage (could be that the
  webserver config is the limiting factor) and especially not about fees.
 
  This allows us to make the texts a bit easier, and focus on the user
  experience:
 
   This link downloads the GIMP executable for Windows platforms via
  gimp.org. It
   can be a bit slow at times, so if you are having problems, try the
   link below for download via BitTorrent
 
  For BitTorrent, all of our torrents are set up with multiple web seeds,
  so this will work even without seeders. As I wrote before , we tested
  this in a university network at a conference, where torrent traffic was
  blocked, and it did work this way).
 
   BitTorrent is a peer-to-peer file sharing system.
   BitTorrent works by downloading GIMP from a distributed network of
   mirror sites and from other BitTorrent users called seeders. Learn
  more...
 
  What would be nice to have is a diff to the current download site (or
  maybe even only the Windows.htrw part of it).
 
 
  --
  Regards,
  Michael
  GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-31 Thread Michael Schumacher


On 05/31/2015 06:25 PM, C R wrote:
 Here are a few changes, based on new suggestions:
 http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/index2.html
 
 Windows capitalised (oops), and I've added (.exe) and (.torrent)
 to the link titles. This is for those that have a hard time reading fine
 print, and for some reason like the colour teal more than orange. ;D

This breaks horribly on my system. I'd suggest that we leave the titles
as before, the finer print should be noticeable enough in that version.

Plus, we can then use the same for the OSX page without any additional
changes besides the for Windows in the description for the first option


-- 
Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-31 Thread Jernej Simončič
On Sunday, May 31, 2015, 19:09:53, C R wrote:

 Ah, works fine in Iceweasel 24.3.0... freakish.
 Oh well. Unfortunately, the packages for 38.0.1 aren't there for Ubuntu
 14.04 yet. May try to compile it form source later, but out of time today
 unfortunately.

It doesn't break for me on Firefox 38.0.1, at least not unless I zoom
in to 140% or more.

-- 
 Jernej Simončič  http://eternallybored.org/ 

In order to get a loan you must first prove you don't need it.
   -- Bankers Axiom

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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-31 Thread C R
There's also this:
http://www.opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/index3.html

That puts the extensions (which are still useful information) down where
they will not cause wrapping.

Re: Iceweasel breakage:
Ah, works fine in Iceweasel 24.3.0... freakish.
Oh well. Unfortunately, the packages for 38.0.1 aren't there for Ubuntu
14.04 yet. May try to compile it form source later, but out of time today
unfortunately.

Yea, I'd say in the interests of twisting the screws on SF, we just go with
the best of the current options for now. We can always patch something else
later. I think this will solve most of our installation complaints for the
time being.

-C

On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 5:52 PM, Michael Schumacher schum...@gmx.de wrote:



 On 05/31/2015 06:49 PM, C R wrote:
  Sure, go for it. Let me know if you want/need anything else from me.
  Odd that it breaks. I can't get it to break on any of the browsers I'm
  using. :)
 
  If you'd let me know which browser is wrapping it, I can have a look at
  altering the code.

 Iceweasel 38.0.1


 --
 Regards,
 Michael
 GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-31 Thread Jernej Simončič
On Sunday, May 31, 2015, 19:13:32, Geoffrey De Belie wrote:

 Maybe it's better for users if you replace executable with installer?

That would definitely be better.

-- 
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Things always fall at right angles.
   -- Sprinkle's Law

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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-31 Thread Michael Schumacher


On 05/31/2015 06:40 PM, C R wrote:
 Michael, could you please elaborate on how the layout breaks, what browser
 you are using, etc? It will help me come up with better solutions.
 
 The code validates under HTML5, so I'm unclear as to waht might be causing
 the problems.

The (.torrent) makes the text too long, and the line breaks. This
overlaps with the via BitTorrent below.

I'm actually tempted to just go live with the latest version minus the
(.exe) and (.torrent) in the titles, some minor adjustment to the
description of the former, and we'll see how people like that.


-- 
Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-31 Thread C R
Here are a few changes, based on new suggestions:
http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/index2.html

Windows capitalised (oops), and I've added (.exe) and (.torrent)
to the link titles. This is for those that have a hard time reading fine
print, and for some reason like the colour teal more than orange. ;D

On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Alan Pater alan.pa...@gmail.com wrote:

 Are people going to read the fine print or just pick their favourite
 colour? Perhaps the second option might read GIMP Torrent.

 On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 7:43 AM, C R caj...@gmail.com wrote:
  I have developed the html for the buttons. A test can be found here:
  http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/
 
  Note I have also changed the text a bit to reflect Michael's latest
  comments: http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/
 
  Note also that the links to not ink to real files, as I have set them to
  the git repository values, which are replaced with the urls on the
 backend.
 
  Comments?
 
  On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 9:32 PM, Michael Schumacher schum...@gmx.de
 wrote:
 
 
 
  On 05/14/2015 08:47 AM, C R wrote:
 
  Hi,
 
   To save retyping, here is the current text:
 
  we do not really have to worry about bandwidth usage (could be that the
  webserver config is the limiting factor) and especially not about fees.
 
  This allows us to make the texts a bit easier, and focus on the user
  experience:
 
   This link downloads the GIMP executable for Windows platforms via
  gimp.org. It
   can be a bit slow at times, so if you are having problems, try the
   link below for download via BitTorrent
 
  For BitTorrent, all of our torrents are set up with multiple web seeds,
  so this will work even without seeders. As I wrote before , we tested
  this in a university network at a conference, where torrent traffic was
  blocked, and it did work this way).
 
   BitTorrent is a peer-to-peer file sharing system.
   BitTorrent works by downloading GIMP from a distributed network of
   mirror sites and from other BitTorrent users called seeders. Learn
  more...
 
  What would be nice to have is a diff to the current download site (or
  maybe even only the Windows.htrw part of it).
 
 
  --
  Regards,
  Michael
  GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-31 Thread Kevin Cozens

On 15-05-31 08:43 AM, C R wrote:

I have developed the html for the buttons. A test can be found here:
http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/

[snip]

Comments?


Looks good to me. The text about BitTorrent states the key information 
someone should know about that option without being long winded.


The only change I would suggest is to capitalize the W in windows.

--
Cheers!

Kevin.

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Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
| powerful!
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-31 Thread Geoffrey De Belie
 Aan zo, 31 mei 2015 19:09:53 +0200 C Rcaj...@gmail.com schreef  
  There's also this: 
  http://www.opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/index3.html 
   
  That puts the extensions (which are still useful information) down where 
  they will not cause wrapping. 
   

Maybe it's better for users if you replace executable with installer?

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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-31 Thread Robert Krawitz
On Mon, 01 Jun 2015 01:40:10 +0200, Michael Schumacher wrote:


 On 06/01/2015 01:14 AM, Gez wrote:
 El dom, 31-05-2015 a las 17:14 +0100, C R escribió:
 It does say via BitTorrent on the teal link.
 There's a good case to be made for just listing the torrent file as a
 smaller text-link after the orange download button, though. If I had my
 way, we would not be listing a torrent at all for windows users, as there
 are far too many things that can go wrong for that platform. However, I'm
 trying to present a solution that everyone is okay with. Esp the developers
 who will, in the end, be applying these patches to the site. Most of the
 devs have been supportive of keeping the torrent link (at least as)
 prominent as the direct download link.
 
 Hi,
 I just followed the previous posts and I confirm that it looked bad
 before you trimmed the text as Michael said.
 Now text fits, but the problem wasn't the length of text but its font.

 Thank you for taking care of this. Let me know if you need a hand.

 This change is live now - it was rather easy to apply into the current
 layout. Thanks, C R.

 I've tested it on
 http://testing.gimp.org/downloads/

 and started the deployment to
 http://www.gimp.org/downloads/

I like the look of that.  I suggest that the same change be made to
the Mac native installer.
-- 
Robert Krawitz r...@alum.mit.edu

***  MIT Engineers   A Proud Tradition   http://mitathletics.com  ***
Member of the League for Programming Freedom  --  http://ProgFree.org
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Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-31 Thread Gez
El dom, 31-05-2015 a las 17:14 +0100, C R escribió:
 It does say via BitTorrent on the teal link.
 There's a good case to be made for just listing the torrent file as a
 smaller text-link after the orange download button, though. If I had my
 way, we would not be listing a torrent at all for windows users, as there
 are far too many things that can go wrong for that platform. However, I'm
 trying to present a solution that everyone is okay with. Esp the developers
 who will, in the end, be applying these patches to the site. Most of the
 devs have been supportive of keeping the torrent link (at least as)
 prominent as the direct download link.

Hi,
I just followed the previous posts and I confirm that it looked bad
before you trimmed the text as Michael said.
Now text fits, but the problem wasn't the length of text but its font.

font-family: Segoe,Myriad,Tahoma,Trebuchet MS,sans-serif;

I guess you have one of the listed fonts installed so you can't see how
it looks when it falls back to sans-serif, which is the font Micheal and
I are seeing (and everyone who doesn't the MS fontos or Myriad).

I don't think it's a good idea to use those fonts. If you want something
better-looking that system sans-serif, you should use webfonts in order
to make sure that what people see is what you intended, otherwise it's a
lottery.

On the other hand, the html you used is a bit messy. It's not completely
wrong and it probably validates, but it's unnecessarily convoluted.
First of all: don't use tables for layout.
Also don't put stuff in divs, style them directly.
You could style the a element itself and float it to the left with
CSS, and you could remove all the divs and the tables.
Just do this:
a href=http://Package-GIMP-windows-stable-jernej;
class=button-httpDownload GIMP 2.8.1.4spanVia HTTP/a/a
pDescription/p

With that html alone, and styling the a.button-http class
(and .button-http span) you're done
Make them float to the left of the paragraph and you get the same with a
fraction of the markup. 
If you're in doubt just poke me or check the Visual Formatting Model
docs at W3C

Finally, on a personal note, I think the rounded corners for buttons
look a bit dated. The current trend for this kind of stuff seems to be
no rounded corners at all or a very small radius.

Thank you for taking care of this. Let me know if you need a hand.

Gez

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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-31 Thread C R
No problem. Glad to help.

-C
On 1 Jun 2015 00:40, Michael Schumacher schum...@gmx.de wrote:



 On 06/01/2015 01:14 AM, Gez wrote:
  El dom, 31-05-2015 a las 17:14 +0100, C R escribió:
  It does say via BitTorrent on the teal link.
  There's a good case to be made for just listing the torrent file as a
  smaller text-link after the orange download button, though. If I had my
  way, we would not be listing a torrent at all for windows users, as
 there
  are far too many things that can go wrong for that platform. However,
 I'm
  trying to present a solution that everyone is okay with. Esp the
 developers
  who will, in the end, be applying these patches to the site. Most of the
  devs have been supportive of keeping the torrent link (at least as)
  prominent as the direct download link.
 
  Hi,
  I just followed the previous posts and I confirm that it looked bad
  before you trimmed the text as Michael said.
  Now text fits, but the problem wasn't the length of text but its font.

  Thank you for taking care of this. Let me know if you need a hand.

 This change is live now - it was rather easy to apply into the current
 layout. Thanks, C R.

 I've tested it on
 http://testing.gimp.org/downloads/

 and started the deployment to
 http://www.gimp.org/downloads/

 (remember: these pages adjust to your platform)

 I think we should try that for the Windows downloads only for a few
 days, probably make some adjustments to the code (I would prefer the
 links to be usable without styling, right now the ordering of the text
 is a bit weird then)

 I've also got an idea how the platform switching can be done with the
 current infrastructure in a rather easy way, but I do not want this
 change to interfere with the deployment of those buttons.

 --
 Regards,
 Michael
 GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-31 Thread Michael Schumacher


On 06/01/2015 01:14 AM, Gez wrote:
 El dom, 31-05-2015 a las 17:14 +0100, C R escribió:
 It does say via BitTorrent on the teal link.
 There's a good case to be made for just listing the torrent file as a
 smaller text-link after the orange download button, though. If I had my
 way, we would not be listing a torrent at all for windows users, as there
 are far too many things that can go wrong for that platform. However, I'm
 trying to present a solution that everyone is okay with. Esp the developers
 who will, in the end, be applying these patches to the site. Most of the
 devs have been supportive of keeping the torrent link (at least as)
 prominent as the direct download link.
 
 Hi,
 I just followed the previous posts and I confirm that it looked bad
 before you trimmed the text as Michael said.
 Now text fits, but the problem wasn't the length of text but its font.

 Thank you for taking care of this. Let me know if you need a hand.

This change is live now - it was rather easy to apply into the current
layout. Thanks, C R.

I've tested it on
http://testing.gimp.org/downloads/

and started the deployment to
http://www.gimp.org/downloads/

(remember: these pages adjust to your platform)

I think we should try that for the Windows downloads only for a few
days, probably make some adjustments to the code (I would prefer the
links to be usable without styling, right now the ordering of the text
is a bit weird then)

I've also got an idea how the platform switching can be done with the
current infrastructure in a rather easy way, but I do not want this
change to interfere with the deployment of those buttons.

-- 
Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-31 Thread C R
Thanks for the comments. For reference, the font styling is the same that
is already deployed throughout the site, the rounded corners mimic the
download button on the front page with the added requirement that our not
contain bitmap graphics, and the color scheme is designed to fit on with
what's there.

As much as possible, I wanted to keep the interface consistent with the
rest of the site. This avoids the new buttons looking out of place as
discussed much earlier in this thread.

If you have a cleaner approach that achieves the same effect, feel free to
submit a patch. I'm not precious about the code.

-C

On 1 Jun 2015 00:16, Gez lis...@ohweb.com.ar wrote:

 El dom, 31-05-2015 a las 17:14 +0100, C R escribió:
  It does say via BitTorrent on the teal link.
  There's a good case to be made for just listing the torrent file as a
  smaller text-link after the orange download button, though. If I had my
  way, we would not be listing a torrent at all for windows users, as
there
  are far too many things that can go wrong for that platform. However,
I'm
  trying to present a solution that everyone is okay with. Esp the
developers
  who will, in the end, be applying these patches to the site. Most of the
  devs have been supportive of keeping the torrent link (at least as)
  prominent as the direct download link.

 Hi,
 I just followed the previous posts and I confirm that it looked bad
 before you trimmed the text as Michael said.
 Now text fits, but the problem wasn't the length of text but its font.

 font-family: Segoe,Myriad,Tahoma,Trebuchet MS,sans-serif;

 I guess you have one of the listed fonts installed so you can't see how
 it looks when it falls back to sans-serif, which is the font Micheal and
 I are seeing (and everyone who doesn't the MS fontos or Myriad).

 I don't think it's a good idea to use those fonts. If you want something
 better-looking that system sans-serif, you should use webfonts in order
 to make sure that what people see is what you intended, otherwise it's a
 lottery.

 On the other hand, the html you used is a bit messy. It's not completely
 wrong and it probably validates, but it's unnecessarily convoluted.
 First of all: don't use tables for layout.
 Also don't put stuff in divs, style them directly.
 You could style the a element itself and float it to the left with
 CSS, and you could remove all the divs and the tables.
 Just do this:
 a href=http://Package-GIMP-windows-stable-jernej;
 class=button-httpDownload GIMP 2.8.1.4spanVia HTTP/a/a
 pDescription/p

 With that html alone, and styling the a.button-http class
 (and .button-http span) you're done
 Make them float to the left of the paragraph and you get the same with a
 fraction of the markup.
 If you're in doubt just poke me or check the Visual Formatting Model
 docs at W3C

 Finally, on a personal note, I think the rounded corners for buttons
 look a bit dated. The current trend for this kind of stuff seems to be
 no rounded corners at all or a very small radius.

 Thank you for taking care of this. Let me know if you need a hand.

 Gez

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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-31 Thread C R
Michael, could you please elaborate on how the layout breaks, what browser
you are using, etc? It will help me come up with better solutions.

The code validates under HTML5, so I'm unclear as to waht might be causing
the problems.

On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 5:35 PM, Michael Schumacher schum...@gmx.de wrote:



 On 05/31/2015 06:25 PM, C R wrote:
  Here are a few changes, based on new suggestions:
  http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/index2.html
 
  Windows capitalised (oops), and I've added (.exe) and (.torrent)
  to the link titles. This is for those that have a hard time reading fine
  print, and for some reason like the colour teal more than orange. ;D

 This breaks horribly on my system. I'd suggest that we leave the titles
 as before, the finer print should be noticeable enough in that version.

 Plus, we can then use the same for the OSX page without any additional
 changes besides the for Windows in the description for the first option


 --
 Regards,
 Michael
 GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-31 Thread C R
I've replaced Windows executable with Windows installer in the
description.
I've opted to keep the .exe extension however since it describes what the
user can expect to be downloading when they click the download button.

http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/index4.html

On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 6:13 PM, Geoffrey De Belie 
computergeoff...@zoho.com wrote:

  Aan zo, 31 mei 2015 19:09:53 +0200 C Rcaj...@gmail.com schreef 
   There's also this:
   http://www.opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/index3.html
  
   That puts the extensions (which are still useful information) down where
   they will not cause wrapping.
  

 Maybe it's better for users if you replace executable with installer?


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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-31 Thread C R
I have developed the html for the buttons. A test can be found here:
http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/

Note I have also changed the text a bit to reflect Michael's latest
comments: http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/

Note also that the links to not ink to real files, as I have set them to
the git repository values, which are replaced with the urls on the backend.

Comments?

On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 9:32 PM, Michael Schumacher schum...@gmx.de wrote:



 On 05/14/2015 08:47 AM, C R wrote:

 Hi,

  To save retyping, here is the current text:

 we do not really have to worry about bandwidth usage (could be that the
 webserver config is the limiting factor) and especially not about fees.

 This allows us to make the texts a bit easier, and focus on the user
 experience:

  This link downloads the GIMP executable for Windows platforms via
 gimp.org. It
  can be a bit slow at times, so if you are having problems, try the
  link below for download via BitTorrent

 For BitTorrent, all of our torrents are set up with multiple web seeds,
 so this will work even without seeders. As I wrote before , we tested
 this in a university network at a conference, where torrent traffic was
 blocked, and it did work this way).

  BitTorrent is a peer-to-peer file sharing system.
  BitTorrent works by downloading GIMP from a distributed network of
  mirror sites and from other BitTorrent users called seeders. Learn
 more...

 What would be nice to have is a diff to the current download site (or
 maybe even only the Windows.htrw part of it).


 --
 Regards,
 Michael
 GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-31 Thread Alan Pater
Are people going to read the fine print or just pick their favourite
colour? Perhaps the second option might read GIMP Torrent.

On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 7:43 AM, C R caj...@gmail.com wrote:
 I have developed the html for the buttons. A test can be found here:
 http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/

 Note I have also changed the text a bit to reflect Michael's latest
 comments: http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/

 Note also that the links to not ink to real files, as I have set them to
 the git repository values, which are replaced with the urls on the backend.

 Comments?

 On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 9:32 PM, Michael Schumacher schum...@gmx.de wrote:



 On 05/14/2015 08:47 AM, C R wrote:

 Hi,

  To save retyping, here is the current text:

 we do not really have to worry about bandwidth usage (could be that the
 webserver config is the limiting factor) and especially not about fees.

 This allows us to make the texts a bit easier, and focus on the user
 experience:

  This link downloads the GIMP executable for Windows platforms via
 gimp.org. It
  can be a bit slow at times, so if you are having problems, try the
  link below for download via BitTorrent

 For BitTorrent, all of our torrents are set up with multiple web seeds,
 so this will work even without seeders. As I wrote before , we tested
 this in a university network at a conference, where torrent traffic was
 blocked, and it did work this way).

  BitTorrent is a peer-to-peer file sharing system.
  BitTorrent works by downloading GIMP from a distributed network of
  mirror sites and from other BitTorrent users called seeders. Learn
 more...

 What would be nice to have is a diff to the current download site (or
 maybe even only the Windows.htrw part of it).


 --
 Regards,
 Michael
 GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-27 Thread Michael Schumacher


On 05/14/2015 08:47 AM, C R wrote:

Hi,

 To save retyping, here is the current text:

we do not really have to worry about bandwidth usage (could be that the
webserver config is the limiting factor) and especially not about fees.

This allows us to make the texts a bit easier, and focus on the user
experience:

 This link downloads the GIMP executable for Windows platforms via gimp.org. It
 can be a bit slow at times, so if you are having problems, try the
 link below for download via BitTorrent

For BitTorrent, all of our torrents are set up with multiple web seeds,
so this will work even without seeders. As I wrote before , we tested
this in a university network at a conference, where torrent traffic was
blocked, and it did work this way).

 BitTorrent is a peer-to-peer file sharing system.
 BitTorrent works by downloading GIMP from a distributed network of
 mirror sites and from other BitTorrent users called seeders. Learn more...

What would be nice to have is a diff to the current download site (or
maybe even only the Windows.htrw part of it).


-- 
Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-14 Thread C R
To save retyping, here is the current text:

This link downloads the GIMP executable for windows via gimp.org. It can
be a bit slow at times, so if you are having problems,
or want to help us
keep our bandwidth usage down, try the green link below for download
via BitTorrent

BitTorrent is a peer-to-peer file sharing system which saves the GIMP
project
hosting fees associated with high download demand for GIMP.
BitTorrent works by downloading GIMP from a distributed network of
BitTorrent users called seeders. Learn more...
On 14 May 2015 07:35, C R caj...@gmail.com wrote:

 The rounded corners and drop shadows can be done with css. Recommended
 changes to the text?
 On 14 May 2015 00:10, Michael Schumacher schum...@gmx.de wrote:



 On 05/08/2015 11:04 PM, C R wrote:
  I'd be ok with having two links labeled Download GIMP 2.8.14 via HTTP
  and Download GIMP 2.8.14 via Bittorrent right above each other, in
 any
  order. This should also help to reduce the explanation for Bittorrent
 to
  one short paragraph
 
  To make this a bit more obvious, I'm imagining something like this
  instead of the current few lines:
 
 
  How about this?
 
 http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/gimp_windows_download_buttons2.png

 Should be fine, with some adjustments to the explanation texts.

 BTW, we shouldn't really need images for that anymore, should we?
 Even if that means discarding the rounded coners, HTML+CSS for that
 seems to be more appropriate and would be easier to maintain.


 --
 Regards,
 Michael
 GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-14 Thread C R
The rounded corners and drop shadows can be done with css. Recommended
changes to the text?
On 14 May 2015 00:10, Michael Schumacher schum...@gmx.de wrote:



 On 05/08/2015 11:04 PM, C R wrote:
  I'd be ok with having two links labeled Download GIMP 2.8.14 via HTTP
  and Download GIMP 2.8.14 via Bittorrent right above each other, in any
  order. This should also help to reduce the explanation for Bittorrent to
  one short paragraph
 
  To make this a bit more obvious, I'm imagining something like this
  instead of the current few lines:
 
 
  How about this?
 
 http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/gimp_windows_download_buttons2.png

 Should be fine, with some adjustments to the explanation texts.

 BTW, we shouldn't really need images for that anymore, should we?
 Even if that means discarding the rounded coners, HTML+CSS for that
 seems to be more appropriate and would be easier to maintain.


 --
 Regards,
 Michael
 GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-09 Thread C R
I would prefer to keep the simple direct-download link first, unless it is
known that torrenting provides a very substantial benefit to the GIMP
project in terms of server band-width. If it doesn't, or if people are
clicking the current if the torrent link doesn't work click here link 99
times out of 100, then I think given the risk of exposing users to malware,
we should save the torrent education for another area of the website, most
especially on the Windows download page, as that is the most at-risk
platform currently.

Once a user has malware, they do not know where it has come from. It would
be just as easy to blame the GIMP project as the torrent client, etc. etc.
If I installed a torrent client on my work machine, I'd have been fired,
and I would not have been able to get half the office using GIMP to be able
to edit my templates.

The more I think about it, the more I think we should just give the option
as an alternative for savvy users. We are not able to provide the level of
education necessary on this page to safely guide a Windows user to the
proper tools.


On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 2:28 AM, Robert Krawitz r...@alum.mit.edu wrote:

 On Fri, 08 May 2015 20:46:43 -0400, Liam R. E. Quin wrote:
  On Fri, 2015-05-08 at 22:04 +0100, C R wrote:
   I'd be ok with having two links labeled Download GIMP 2.8.14 via
   HTTP and Download GIMP 2.8.14 via Bittorrent right above each
   other, in any order. This should also help to reduce the
   explanation for Bittorrent to one short paragraph
  
   To make this a bit more obvious, I'm imagining something like this
   instead of the current few lines:
  
 
  How about this?
 
 http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/gimp_windows_download_buttons2.png
 
  Close. I'd still put the Bittorrent one first with text like
 
  Get GIMP for Windows using Bittorrent. Fastest download. Least load on
 the GIMP servers. Requires a bittorrent client. Learn more...
 
  Get GIMP for Windows over the Web with HTTP. Slower but no special
 program is needed.
 
  Note, I'm repeating GIMP for Windows to minimize doubt.

 Think about this from the perspective of photographers or other
 graphic artists who otherwise aren't particularly tech-savvy.  They
 don't know what load on the GIMP servers means and don't care.  The
 download's really not that big anyway; they'll spend more time
 learning about BitTorrent (much less installing it) than they will
 just downloading it via HTTP.  It's 87 MB or so; over my piddly little
 1500/368 DSL link, that works out to about 9 minutes.  I spent more
 time than that just reading about BitTorrent to even comment here.  If
 you're asking people to go to wikipedia with a huge list of BitTorrent
 clients (which is intended as a reference, not as a guide) and telling
 them to select one, you're going to drive them crazy.  If they pick an
 adware or malware client inadvertently (or because it has changed
 since el Wik listed it), they're going to blame GIMP for it (hey,
 you're the ones who told us to go here!).  Downloading by browser is
 simple and everyone has done it countless times.  If you provide an
 ftp link, the browser can even restart it if it's interrupted (which
 for something that small isn't very likely).

 The reason BitTorrent puts less load on download.gimp.org is that it
 puts that load on people who have downloaded and are downloading GIMP.
 Once you start downloading it, others may then downloads chunks of it
 from *you*.  Aside from potential TOS violations and the like, that's
 going to take up some of your bandwith, which the wording proposed
 above doesn't tell anyone.

 You're asking -- not forcing, I know, but trying very hard to
 encourage -- people to do something they aren't likely to understand
 and can go wrong with in a lot of ways just to reduce gimp.org server
 load.  That load could be reduced in other ways, such as by mirroring
 on Sourceforge, kernel.org, wherever.
 --
 Robert Krawitz r...@alum.mit.edu

 ***  MIT Engineers   A Proud Tradition   http://mitathletics.com  ***
 Member of the League for Programming Freedom  --  http://ProgFree.org
 Project lead for Gutenprint   --http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net

 Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works.
 --Eric Crampton

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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-08 Thread C R
There seems to be enough interest in making a change of some sort to the
Windows page. I will do a few mockups with different options, then pending
any revisions, will provide a patch for the ver we agree on.

Thanks to everyone for input and patience.

-C

On 8 May 2015 01:17, Michael Schumacher schum...@gmx.de wrote:



 On 05/07/2015 09:39 PM, C R wrote:
  Yes, and to also force Bittorrent knowledge upon users.
 
  If I were a new user, I'd Google torrent and immediately get links for
  Pirate Bay and other dodgy stuff... nothing having to do with GIMP.

 Exactly.

 The torrent files for GIMP are there to explicitly provide
 examples that are different to e.g. movie downloads - to make sure that
 this download method is not inherently linked to those.

  Thought we were trying to prevent people from going to 3rd party
  websites and downloading viruses accidentally. Having to install a
  3rd party downloader just to install GIMP is a pretty big hurdle for
  a lot of people, and they are likely to encounter lots of dangerous
  DOWNLOAD NOW buttons. ;) It takes trust in two different software
  packages just to install one program.

 Yes, this is a problem - and the current way of linking the Wikipedia
 Bittorrent clients list is not as good as linking one particular safe
 client for the current platform.

 For example, I pondered to go for Deluge for Windows, but didn't want to
 remove people's choices in favor of my own personal preference - but if
 there is some general agreement on good client options, we may link them
 directly.

  I guess I'd ask: Is it more important to enlighten people (and are we
  really doing that, or just scaring them off, or needlessly endangering
  them?) about torrents, or is it more important to make the installation
of
  GIMP as easy and enjoyable as possible?

  I suggest a few buttons with gimp icons, themed for the current gimp
page,
  and table-formatted along with some text explaining what the options
  actually do, so you don't have to guess.

  Maybe a link to torrent tutorials /help files if the user wants to
  enlighten themselves, and we should say right away why torrents help
us, so
  the user can make an informed choice.

 Not sure if we need graphical buttons for that, though, links should do
 just fine and end the impatient ones' hunt for the magical Download
word.

  Well, I've been an ass, been diplomatic... now I'm thinking of being
lazy.
  Anyone wants graphics, let me know. I'm glad to help.

 You could also try to provide the patch for the HTML parts - these are
 in Git, https://git.gnome.org/browse/gimp-web/tree/downloads
 - the file name per platform should be obvious, and the HTML is rather
 straightforward.


 P.S. can you make your mail client reply to the list directly, instead
 of cc'ing it?

 --
 Regards,
 Michael
 GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD

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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-08 Thread Laxminarayan Kamath
tl;dr

But to get inspired, just try this:
https://nightly.mozilla.org/

You could have a split table for different versions
dev/alpha/beta/stable , etc.. just like Mozilla for
Desktop/Mobile/etc.

-- 
Laxminarayan Kamath Ammembal
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-08 Thread C R
Yes, that's what I mean by table layout. Probably something more
minimalistic than that page, with
clear separation between each entry. It's a bit of a mess with no
separation between different links on the same line.
The Firefox graphics people really like to spank your eyeballs with
transparent divs and flashy background images.
I prefer something simpler, with one download button for each link
(dislocated separate green buttons for download are visually confusing, for
example, especially if you are from a country that doesn't read from
right-to-left.

Will come back soon with samples.

On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 10:24 AM, Laxminarayan Kamath kamat...@gmail.com
wrote:

 tl;dr

 But to get inspired, just try this:
 https://nightly.mozilla.org/

 You could have a split table for different versions
 dev/alpha/beta/stable , etc.. just like Mozilla for
 Desktop/Mobile/etc.

 --
 Laxminarayan Kamath Ammembal
 http://lankerisms.blogspot.com
 (+91) 9945036093

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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-08 Thread Kevin

On 2015-05-08 05:24, Laxminarayan Kamath wrote:

But to get inspired, just try this:
https://nightly.mozilla.org/

You could have a split table for different versions


That reminds me of something else I find useful on software download 
pages.


It is handy when the page puts links related to the program file useful 
for the operating system I'm running at the top of the page. I also like 
it when they have links further down the page for other operating 
systems. There are times I download a program file for the main 
operating system I use AND for another OS that I sometimes run. It 
allows me to get everything I need in one visit. No muss. No fuss.


Some download places will include a link to a page with development 
releases for those that want to run/test the latest dev versions.


I offer the following example:
http://www.singularityviewer.org/downloads

--

Cheers!

Kevin.

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distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  | the mouth-breathers, and that's why 
we're

| powerful!
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-08 Thread Kevin

On 2015-05-08 00:04, Mukund Sivaraman wrote:

I favour changing this to a link to get the installer exe directly. I
say this from my own perspective: If I am downloading some free 
software

application for Windows, I'd prefer a direct link to the installer by
default rather than getting the torrent file. It is just convenient.


I also favour a link directly to an exe. I don't use BitTorrent. I don't 
have any machine with a BitTorrent client on it. When I'm downloading 
Open Source programs from the net I look for the direct download. If all 
I see is a file sharing link (BitTorrent, ed2k, or similar), I will go 
else where to download the program or I will look for a different 
program to do the same job as the one I was after.


--

Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/   |Nerds make the shiny things that 
distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  | the mouth-breathers, and that's why 
we're

| powerful!
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-08 Thread C R
First try:
http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/gimp_windows_download_buttons.png

I think it's a worthy thing to give users the option to torrent the files.
If we are going to properly do that, let's make sure they don't have to go
searching across the web for what they need, and be up-front about why it's
better for them and the community to torrent. The above is based on these
assumptions:

1. The average user is on the downloads page for the quick-fix and are not
going to torrent things anyway (even if they knew what it was). It's too
much overhead, and at this point they are only curious about GIMP. If they
miss the second link (6 out of 7 of the friends/co-workers I asked about it
missed it entirely, and all 7 of them downloaded the .torrent file and
looked at me as if I were trying to trick them or something.

2. We want everyone to try out GIMP, even unmotivated people, so let's give
them a shot at it by giving them the link exactly where they would expect
it: The first link button on the right-hand side.

3. Some users will not mind using a torrent client if it helps the
community. We provide the second link for them, on the same level as the
first link, with an article immediately following to explain what it is,
why it helps, and how to do it safely. Also explaining the benefits of
torrenting in-general shows them, it's not just a one-time bundleware
thing: it's a valuable tool for everyone.

Note that I have removed all the known to work with information, because
the only known non-working versions are for Windows RT and Windows packages
so old it's a crime against the user to be using them in the first place.

I did this based on these assumptions:

1. If the user does not see their version of windows in the list, they will
probably download it anyway to try it out. - These users did not need the
list.
2.  If the user does see their version in the list, it makes no difference
to the fact that they are there to download the file, and could have saved
time looking through the list in the first place, just hitting the download
button (or spent the time reading up on bit torrent) ;) - These users do
not need the list.
3. If the user is running Windows 98 or older, it would be so rare as not
even to be worth mentioning. Hard drives have a shelf life of 4-8 years,
they would have had to reinstall win98 manually over and over and over.
They may as well be using Linux. - These users need linux, not the list
4. Less is more. If we can exclude half a page of information, let's do it,
and save everyone time.

I have thus replaced the list with an additional sentence at the end of the
intro text on the page that says Works with all known versions of Windows
except Windows RT.


Thoughts?



On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 4:21 PM, Michael Schumacher schum...@gmx.de wrote:



 On 05/08/2015 04:46 AM, Robert Krawitz wrote:

  To what end?  Is this to help GIMP users in some way

 It helps them to get download speeds that are reasonable, even if many
 (or actually, the more) people download the files at a given time.

  P.S. can you make your mail client reply to the list directly, instead
  of cc'ing it?
 
  The list needs to set the reply-to: to make that work.

 It sets the corresponding mailing list headers already, so List-Reply in
 mail clients that support this will work. If some clients don't
 implement it, it would be nice if their users could ask the developers
 to do that.

 Manually changing the To: address is also possible, this is what I do
 for clients - for example web interfaces - that do not support List-Reply.

 Reply-to: vs. no Reply-To: is a longer debate, and I see the benefits of
 both ways.


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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-08 Thread Robert Krawitz
On Fri, 08 May 2015 17:21:15 +0200, Michael Schumacher wrote:
 On 05/08/2015 04:46 AM, Robert Krawitz wrote:

 To what end?  Is this to help GIMP users in some way

 It helps them to get download speeds that are reasonable, even if many
 (or actually, the more) people download the files at a given time.

Mirroring would help too.  There are plenty of services that provide
that without messing with the content.

If I understand it correctly, BitTorrent also by default makes you an
uploader as well as a downloader.  If you're running on a slow DSL
connection, that might make for a nasty surprise; if you're using a
service provider that forbids running servers, that might get you into
other trouble.  And a lot of ISP's, for better or worse, block or
otherwise muck with BitTorrent traffic, which is going to be hard for
users to debug.  Expecting people to learn to configure proxies, TOR,
and what have you to get around this just to download an image editing
program is, IMHO, not reasonable.

 P.S. can you make your mail client reply to the list directly, instead
 of cc'ing it?
 
 The list needs to set the reply-to: to make that work.

 It sets the corresponding mailing list headers already, so List-Reply in
 mail clients that support this will work. If some clients don't
 implement it, it would be nice if their users could ask the developers
 to do that.

I see.

 Manually changing the To: address is also possible, this is what I do
 for clients - for example web interfaces - that do not support List-Reply.

If one remembers to do that.
-- 
Robert Krawitz r...@alum.mit.edu

***  MIT Engineers   A Proud Tradition   http://mitathletics.com  ***
Member of the League for Programming Freedom  --  http://ProgFree.org
Project lead for Gutenprint   --http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net

Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works.
--Eric Crampton
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-08 Thread Michael Schumacher


On 05/08/2015 05:58 PM, C R wrote:
 First try:
 http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/gimp_windows_download_buttons.png

Not really what I had in mind when you mentioned you planes, rather some
small table that takes the place of the current download links, and a
short, one paragraph explanation below each of them.

And can we use that Windows logo without any additional requirements?
That's actually one of the reasons why there is not click icon to get
to the windows downloads button on the downloads pages yet.

 3. Some users will not mind using a torrent client if it helps the
 community. We provide the second link for them, on the same level as the
 first link, with an article immediately following to explain what it is,
 why it helps, and how to do it safely. Also explaining the benefits of
 torrenting in-general shows them, it's not just a one-time bundleware
 thing: it's a valuable tool for everyone.

So which Bittorrent client do we link to?


 Note that I have removed all the known to work with information, because
 the only known non-working versions are for Windows RT and Windows packages
 so old it's a crime against the user to be using them in the first place.
 
 I did this based on these assumptions:

I added this list because questions like does it run on
98/ME/Vista/2000/NT4/... - and it did contain all known working versions
because a plain more recent than XP is apparently not enough by itself.

 I have thus replaced the list with an additional sentence at the end of the
 intro text on the page that says Works with all known versions of Windows
 except Windows RT.

There still seem to be a considerable number of people running XP SP2.
Not being able to run GIMP might be a wakeup call for some of them, yet
this whole change is done to avoid a different wakeup call, so maybe you
might want to reconsider...?


-- 
Regards,
Michael
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-08 Thread Michael Schumacher


On 05/08/2015 11:36 AM, C R wrote:

 I prefer something simpler, with one download button for each link
 (dislocated separate green buttons for download are visually confusing, for
 example, especially if you are from a country that doesn't read from
 right-to-left.

Please make sure that the changed layout can still accommodate long
links, e.g. Download GIMP 2.8.14 or Download nightly builds


-- 
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-08 Thread Michael Schumacher


On 05/08/2015 08:03 PM, C R wrote:

 First try:

 http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/gimp_windows_download_buttons.png

 Not really what I had in mind when you mentioned you planes, rather some
 small table that takes the place of the current download links, and a
 short, one paragraph explanation below each of them.

 
 I hope I surprised in a good way then... :)

I expected the change to be as small as possible, really just present
the two existing links to the download options better.

 There are only two links on this page, so a table was not really necessary.

 Are you okay with the BitTorent link being second?

I'd be ok with having two links labeled Download GIMP 2.8.14 via HTTP
and Download GIMP 2.8.14 via Bittorrent right above each other, in any
order. This should also help to reduce the explanation for Bittorrent to
one short paragraph

To make this a bit more obvious, I'm imagining something like this
instead of the current few lines:

--

aDownload GIMP 2.8.14 via method 1/a

explanation for method 1, e.g. link to mirrors list, introduction
bittorrent including link to wikipedia article

aDownload GIMP 2.8.14 via method 2/a

explanation for method 2, e.g. link to mirrors list, introduction to
bittorrent including link to wikipedia article

--

I'm not really a fan of any images and/or icons being used for either.
though.

 3. Some users will not mind using a torrent client if it helps the
 community. We provide the second link for them, on the same level as the
 first link, with an article immediately following to explain what it is,
 why it helps, and how to do it safely. Also explaining the benefits of
 torrenting in-general shows them, it's not just a one-time bundleware
 thing: it's a valuable tool for everyone.

 So which Bittorrent client do we link to?

 
 We could use icons for the most popular ones and give a choice. uTorrent
 seems to be the most popular for Windows at the moment.

If that is µTorrent, then this one is proprietary. If we are linking
specific ones instead of the whole list, we should aim to only link to
Free Software clients, that do not have strange ideas about what to
include in their installers (and preferably not being hosted by
SourceForge).

 It's all just suggestions anyway, so I don't think listing the most popular
 one is necessarily endorsement of one over another.

 I could put Works with all known variations of Windows from Windows XP
 (SP3) to Windows 8.1 with the exception of Windows RT
 I find it funny that people would take time to ask and not just try it
 though...

They might not be able to test it for themselves.

 There still seem to be a considerable number of people running XP SP2.
 Not being able to run GIMP might be a wakeup call for some of them, yet
 this whole change is done to avoid a different wakeup call, so maybe you
 might want to reconsider...?

 
 Reconsider what? The whole thing

Reconsider the wording of the Windows version compatibility.


-- 
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Michael
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-08 Thread Michael Schumacher


On 05/08/2015 06:12 PM, Robert Krawitz wrote:
 On Fri, 08 May 2015 17:21:15 +0200, Michael Schumacher wrote:
 On 05/08/2015 04:46 AM, Robert Krawitz wrote:

 To what end?  Is this to help GIMP users in some way

 It helps them to get download speeds that are reasonable, even if many
 (or actually, the more) people download the files at a given time.
 
 Mirroring would help too.  There are plenty of services that provide
 that without messing with the content.

We do that. And the torrent files make use of the mirrors - they have
lots of web seeds each, so the client will download from many, if not
all, mirrors in parallel. Unless it finds other peers, of course.

The fact that a simple approach - just creating a torrent file with the
right settings and not having to setup anything on the server side -
allows for that was another contributing factor to consider the use of
Bittorrent.

And at the time we ran the initial checks, we were in a locked-down
university network (LGM 2014 at Leipzig university), and while the
Bittorrent ports themselves were blocked there, the web seed downloads
worked just fine, because they use HTTP.


-- 
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Michael
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-08 Thread C R

  First try:
 
 http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/gimp_windows_download_buttons.png

 Not really what I had in mind when you mentioned you planes, rather some
 small table that takes the place of the current download links, and a
 short, one paragraph explanation below each of them.


I hope I surprised in a good way then... :)
I realised that the list below it were not links to different installers,
but just a long list of compatibility.
There are only two links on this page, so a table was not really necessary.

Also, there would not be enough room in a small table cell to tell users
what they need to know before going out to discover the wild west that is
BitTorrent. I did not like that we are essentially tricking new users into
downloading something they were unfamiliar with (and is also a bit of a
lie, since clicking on the link decidedly does not Download GIMP 2.8.14,
it downloads a torrent link), knowing that they would fail and either quit,
or go off on a dangerous quest to find a safe client.

Offer the safe option first, and for the more clever users who want to
help, give them the option to help. This is why I put the torrent link
second, but on the same level as the gimp.org download link. I could also
put a little Faster! graphic on the bittorent link box if you think it
actually is faster. We can list that as a benefit.


And can we use that Windows logo without any additional requirements?
 That's actually one of the reasons why there is not click icon to get
 to the windows downloads button on the downloads pages yet.


Well, if you don't already have a compatibility agreement with Microsoft,
you are breaking their rules by mentioning Windows in the first place.
I mean, they certainly seem to think GIMP works with Windows, and have no
issues using your logo:
https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/compatibility/CompatCenter/ProductViewerWithDefaultFilters?TempOsid=Windows%208.1Locale=en-gbArchitecture=X64TextSearch=gimpType=BothCurrentPage=0TotalPages=1ShowCriteria=0SortCriteria=RelevanceCompatibility=UnknownLastRequested=14

Maybe it's worth an ask to use theirs? ;)

If not, that's not exactly a deal-breaker. I can replace it with a drawing
of a window, or the letters WIN, or a little white silhouette of Wilbur
if you like.. I think people will get the point. Did you like the rest of
the link, or the introductory article for BitTorrent for example? Are you
okay with the BitTorent link being second?

 3. Some users will not mind using a torrent client if it helps the
  community. We provide the second link for them, on the same level as the
  first link, with an article immediately following to explain what it is,
  why it helps, and how to do it safely. Also explaining the benefits of
  torrenting in-general shows them, it's not just a one-time bundleware
  thing: it's a valuable tool for everyone.

 So which Bittorrent client do we link to?


We could use icons for the most popular ones and give a choice. uTorrent
seems to be the most popular for Windows at the moment.
It's all just suggestions anyway, so I don't think listing the most popular
one is necessarily endorsement of one over another.


  Note that I have removed all the known to work with information,
 because
  the only known non-working versions are for Windows RT and Windows
 packages
  so old it's a crime against the user to be using them in the first place.
 
  I did this based on these assumptions:

 I added this list because questions like does it run on
 98/ME/Vista/2000/NT4/... - and it did contain all known working versions
 because a plain more recent than XP is apparently not enough by itself.


I could put Works with all known variations of Windows from Windows XP
(SP3) to Windows 8.1 with the exception of Windows RT
I find it funny that people would take time to ask and not just try it
though...

 I have thus replaced the list with an additional sentence at the end of
 the
  intro text on the page that says Works with all known versions of
 Windows
  except Windows RT.

 There still seem to be a considerable number of people running XP SP2.
 Not being able to run GIMP might be a wakeup call for some of them, yet
 this whole change is done to avoid a different wakeup call, so maybe you
 might want to reconsider...?


Reconsider what? The whole thing? I'm happy to reconsider anything, btw.
I want to give users a good experience. I want them to see the important
stuff first, and after hearing comments and taking on board the goals of
what we are trying to do, I think this is a much better solution that is
essentially a compromise, but a clear and honest one.

Thoughts?








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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-08 Thread Liam R. E. Quin
On Fri, 2015-05-08 at 09:34 +0530, Mukund Sivaraman wrote:
 Hi schumaml
 
 On Thu, May 07, 2015 at 05:41:34PM +0200, Michael Schumacher wrote:
  On 05/07/2015 10:25 AM, C R wrote:
  
   Is the torrent listed first to save bandwidth on 
   download.gimp.org?
  
  Yes, and to also force Bittorrent knowledge upon users.
 
 I favour changing this to a link to get the installer exe directly. I
 say this from my own perspective: If I am downloading some free 
 software application for Windows, I'd prefer a direct link to the 
 installer by default rather than getting the torrent file. It is 
 just convenient.

Do we need more mirrors to make this (wasteful but easy) approach 
feasible?

 
 Also, as someone else said, forcing Bittorrent use upon users is not 
 our agenda. 

No-one is being forced - both links are already there.


 We can have it as an option. Right now, the big large Download GIMP 
 2.8.14 Windows download link is counter intuitive to most users' 
 expectation.

Do we have statistics on how many people use bittorrent and how many 
download?


 
 Mukund
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-08 Thread C R
 I'd be ok with having two links labeled Download GIMP 2.8.14 via HTTP
 and Download GIMP 2.8.14 via Bittorrent right above each other, in any
 order. This should also help to reduce the explanation for Bittorrent to
 one short paragraph

 To make this a bit more obvious, I'm imagining something like this
 instead of the current few lines:


How about this?
http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/gimp_windows_download_buttons2.png


I'm not really a fan of any images and/or icons being used for either.
 though.


I have removed the icons in the above link. If necessary, I can also do the
button graphics using just HTML and css.

If that is µTorrent, then this one is proprietary. If we are linking
 specific ones instead of the whole list, we should aim to only link to
 Free Software clients, that do not have strange ideas about what to
 include in their installers (and preferably not being hosted by
 SourceForge).


I'm open to suggestions. I am not a windows torrent user, so I don't really
have any good feedback in this respect.
I think as long as the HTTP link is first, it will solve most of the issues
anyway. If linking to the Wikipedia page is enough to satisfy, I'm fine
with it (orange learn more link at the end of the description).



  It's all just suggestions anyway, so I don't think listing the most
 popular
  one is necessarily endorsement of one over another.

  I could put Works with all known variations of Windows from Windows XP
  (SP3) to Windows 8.1 with the exception of Windows RT
  I find it funny that people would take time to ask and not just try it
  though...

 They might not be able to test it for themselves.


I have added a link to expand out the full compatibility list. This way the
info is there for those few who can not test it themselves, and is out of
the way for people to find what they are looking for quickly.

 There still seem to be a considerable number of people running XP SP2.
  Not being able to run GIMP might be a wakeup call for some of them, yet
  this whole change is done to avoid a different wakeup call, so maybe you
  might want to reconsider...?
 
 
  Reconsider what? The whole thing

 Reconsider the wording of the Windows version compatibility.


Do you think the afore-mentioned expanding list idea will be adequate?
My thoughts: most people are going to be quite happy to click the thing
that looks like an orange download button, and go enjoy themselves some
GIMP goodness. :)

Thanks for the help, and happy Friday!

-PS: I'm happy to offer up source graphics files for anyone who wants to
help tinker. They are presently .svg vector Inkscape files, but I can
output some layered .xcf files as well if people want to GIMP them a bit.

-C
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-08 Thread Burnell West

 How about this?
 http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/gimp_windows_download_buttons2.png


I like 
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-08 Thread Liam R. E. Quin
On Fri, 2015-05-08 at 22:04 +0100, C R wrote:
  I'd be ok with having two links labeled Download GIMP 2.8.14 via 
  HTTP and Download GIMP 2.8.14 via Bittorrent right above each 
  other, in any order. This should also help to reduce the 
  explanation for Bittorrent to one short paragraph
  
  To make this a bit more obvious, I'm imagining something like this 
  instead of the current few lines:
  
 
 How about this?
 http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/gimp_windows_download_buttons2.png

Close. I'd still put the Bittorrent one first with text like

Get GIMP for Windows using Bittorrent. Fastest download. Least load on 
the GIMP servers. Requires a bittorrent client. Learn more...

Get GIMP for Windows over the Web with HTTP. Slower but no special 
program is needed.

Note, I'm repeating GIMP for Windows to minimize doubt.

I'd remove the first two paragraphs, or put them after the two big 
download buttons and their associated text.

There should also be a rounded-rectangle, Download GIMP Manual;
ideally it'd be the English manual on the en page, the French manual 
on the French-language page, and so on, with the others all still 
listed.

Liam

 
 I'm not really a fan of any images and/or icons being used for 
 either.
  though.
  
 
 I have removed the icons in the above link. If necessary, I can also 
 do the
 button graphics using just HTML and css.
 
 If that is µTorrent, then this one is proprietary. If we are linking
  specific ones instead of the whole list, we should aim to only 
  link to Free Software clients, that do not have strange ideas 
  about what to include in their installers (and preferably not 
  being hosted by SourceForge).
  
 
 I'm open to suggestions. I am not a windows torrent user, so I don't 
 really
 have any good feedback in this respect.
 I think as long as the HTTP link is first, it will solve most of the 
 issues
 anyway. If linking to the Wikipedia page is enough to satisfy, I'm 
 fine with it (orange learn more link at the end of the 
 description).
 
 
  
   It's all just suggestions anyway, so I don't think listing the 
   most
  popular
   one is necessarily endorsement of one over another.
  
   I could put Works with all known variations of Windows from 
   Windows XP (SP3) to Windows 8.1 with the exception of Windows RT
   I find it funny that people would take time to ask and not just 
   try it though...
  
  They might not be able to test it for themselves.
  
  
 I have added a link to expand out the full compatibility list. This 
 way the
 info is there for those few who can not test it themselves, and is 
 out of
 the way for people to find what they are looking for quickly.
 
   There still seem to be a considerable number of people running 
   XP SP2.
Not being able to run GIMP might be a wakeup call for some of 
them, yet this whole change is done to avoid a different 
wakeup call, so maybe you might want to reconsider...?

   
   Reconsider what? The whole thing
  
  Reconsider the wording of the Windows version compatibility.
 
 
 Do you think the afore-mentioned expanding list idea will be 
 adequate? My thoughts: most people are going to be quite happy to 
 click the thing that looks like an orange download button, and go 
 enjoy themselves some GIMP goodness. :)
 
 Thanks for the help, and happy Friday!
 
 -PS: I'm happy to offer up source graphics files for anyone who 
 wants to
 help tinker. They are presently .svg vector Inkscape files, but I 
 can output some layered .xcf files as well if people want to GIMP 
 them a bit.
 
 -C
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-08 Thread Robert Krawitz
On Fri, 08 May 2015 20:46:43 -0400, Liam R. E. Quin wrote:
 On Fri, 2015-05-08 at 22:04 +0100, C R wrote:
  I'd be ok with having two links labeled Download GIMP 2.8.14 via 
  HTTP and Download GIMP 2.8.14 via Bittorrent right above each 
  other, in any order. This should also help to reduce the 
  explanation for Bittorrent to one short paragraph
  
  To make this a bit more obvious, I'm imagining something like this 
  instead of the current few lines:
  
 
 How about this?
 http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/gimp_windows_download_buttons2.png

 Close. I'd still put the Bittorrent one first with text like

 Get GIMP for Windows using Bittorrent. Fastest download. Least load on the 
 GIMP servers. Requires a bittorrent client. Learn more...

 Get GIMP for Windows over the Web with HTTP. Slower but no special program is 
 needed.

 Note, I'm repeating GIMP for Windows to minimize doubt.

Think about this from the perspective of photographers or other
graphic artists who otherwise aren't particularly tech-savvy.  They
don't know what load on the GIMP servers means and don't care.  The
download's really not that big anyway; they'll spend more time
learning about BitTorrent (much less installing it) than they will
just downloading it via HTTP.  It's 87 MB or so; over my piddly little
1500/368 DSL link, that works out to about 9 minutes.  I spent more
time than that just reading about BitTorrent to even comment here.  If
you're asking people to go to wikipedia with a huge list of BitTorrent
clients (which is intended as a reference, not as a guide) and telling
them to select one, you're going to drive them crazy.  If they pick an
adware or malware client inadvertently (or because it has changed
since el Wik listed it), they're going to blame GIMP for it (hey,
you're the ones who told us to go here!).  Downloading by browser is
simple and everyone has done it countless times.  If you provide an
ftp link, the browser can even restart it if it's interrupted (which
for something that small isn't very likely).

The reason BitTorrent puts less load on download.gimp.org is that it
puts that load on people who have downloaded and are downloading GIMP.
Once you start downloading it, others may then downloads chunks of it
from *you*.  Aside from potential TOS violations and the like, that's
going to take up some of your bandwith, which the wording proposed
above doesn't tell anyone.

You're asking -- not forcing, I know, but trying very hard to
encourage -- people to do something they aren't likely to understand
and can go wrong with in a lot of ways just to reduce gimp.org server
load.  That load could be reduced in other ways, such as by mirroring
on Sourceforge, kernel.org, wherever.
-- 
Robert Krawitz r...@alum.mit.edu

***  MIT Engineers   A Proud Tradition   http://mitathletics.com  ***
Member of the League for Programming Freedom  --  http://ProgFree.org
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Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-07 Thread C R
Yes, and to also force Bittorrent knowledge upon users.

If I were a new user, I'd Google torrent and immediately get links for
Pirate Bay and other dodgy stuff... nothing having to do with GIMP. Thought
we were trying to prevent people from going to 3rd party websites and
downloading viruses accidentally. Having to install a 3rd party downloader
just to install GIMP is a pretty big hurdle for a lot of people, and they
are likely to encounter lots of dangerous DOWNLOAD NOW buttons. ;)
It takes trust in two different software packages just to install one
program.

I guess I'd ask: Is it more important to enlighten people (and are we
really doing that, or just scaring them off, or needlessly endangering
them?) about torrents, or is it more important to make the installation of
GIMP as easy and enjoyable as possible?

Unfortunately, these graphics have been burnt quite a lot by ads linking
to malicious downloads, not using them so far is also a deliberate choice.

Yes, but I'm not suggesting some poorly conceived big green flashing button
with DOWNLOAD NOW emblazoned upon it.
I suggest a few buttons with gimp icons, themed for the current gimp page,
and table-formatted along with some text explaining what the options
actually do, so you don't have to guess.

Maybe a link to torrent tutorials /help files if the user wants to
enlighten themselves, and we should say right away why torrents help us, so
the user can make an informed choice.

TLDR:
I think we could at least make the experience more pleasant, and we don't
even have to change the options.

People who do not read beyond the first line on our downloads page might
not be happy with using GIMP, we might be doing them a favor with the
current setup.

I got scolded for expressing that opinion. Yea, was worded slightly
different, but... lol

Well, I've been an ass, been diplomatic... now I'm thinking of being lazy.
Anyone wants graphics, let me know. I'm glad to help.

-C


On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 4:41 PM, Michael Schumacher schum...@gmx.de wrote:



 On 05/07/2015 10:25 AM, C R wrote:

  Is the torrent listed first to save bandwidth on download.gimp.org?

 Yes, and to also force Bittorrent knowledge upon users.

  If not, maybe we should offer up the direct download executable first
  to avoid confusion (and ranting and name-calling, apparently, lol).

 The choice to endure the occasional complaint is deliberate.

  Generally I find most sites make dedicated button-looking graphics for
  various kinds of downloads.

 Unfortunately, these graphics have been burnt quite a lot by ads linking
 to malicious downloads, not using them so far is also a deliberate choice.

  I would be happy to make some up to disambiguate the downloading links,
 for
  our less torrent-savvy users.
 
  Thoughts?

 People who do not read beyond the first line on our downloads page might
 not be happy with using GIMP, we might be doing them a favor with the
 current setup.


 --
 Regards,
 Michael
 GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-07 Thread Michael Schumacher


On 05/07/2015 09:39 PM, C R wrote:
 Yes, and to also force Bittorrent knowledge upon users.
 
 If I were a new user, I'd Google torrent and immediately get links for
 Pirate Bay and other dodgy stuff... nothing having to do with GIMP. 

Exactly.

The torrent files for GIMP are there to explicitly provide
examples that are different to e.g. movie downloads - to make sure that
this download method is not inherently linked to those.

 Thought we were trying to prevent people from going to 3rd party
 websites and downloading viruses accidentally. Having to install a
 3rd party downloader just to install GIMP is a pretty big hurdle for
 a lot of people, and they are likely to encounter lots of dangerous
 DOWNLOAD NOW buttons. ;) It takes trust in two different software
 packages just to install one program.

Yes, this is a problem - and the current way of linking the Wikipedia
Bittorrent clients list is not as good as linking one particular safe
client for the current platform.

For example, I pondered to go for Deluge for Windows, but didn't want to
remove people's choices in favor of my own personal preference - but if
there is some general agreement on good client options, we may link them
directly.

 I guess I'd ask: Is it more important to enlighten people (and are we
 really doing that, or just scaring them off, or needlessly endangering
 them?) about torrents, or is it more important to make the installation of
 GIMP as easy and enjoyable as possible?

 I suggest a few buttons with gimp icons, themed for the current gimp page,
 and table-formatted along with some text explaining what the options
 actually do, so you don't have to guess.

 Maybe a link to torrent tutorials /help files if the user wants to
 enlighten themselves, and we should say right away why torrents help us, so
 the user can make an informed choice.

Not sure if we need graphical buttons for that, though, links should do
just fine and end the impatient ones' hunt for the magical Download word.

 Well, I've been an ass, been diplomatic... now I'm thinking of being lazy.
 Anyone wants graphics, let me know. I'm glad to help.

You could also try to provide the patch for the HTML parts - these are
in Git, https://git.gnome.org/browse/gimp-web/tree/downloads
- the file name per platform should be obvious, and the HTML is rather
straightforward.


P.S. can you make your mail client reply to the list directly, instead
of cc'ing it?

-- 
Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD

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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-07 Thread Gez
El jue, 07-05-2015 a las 20:39 +0100, C R escribió:
 Yes, and to also force Bittorrent knowledge upon users.
 
 If I were a new user, I'd Google torrent and immediately get links for
 Pirate Bay and other dodgy stuff... nothing having to do with GIMP. Thought
 we were trying to prevent people from going to 3rd party websites and
 downloading viruses accidentally. Having to install a 3rd party downloader
 just to install GIMP is a pretty big hurdle for a lot of people, and they
 are likely to encounter lots of dangerous DOWNLOAD NOW buttons. ;)
 It takes trust in two different software packages just to install one
 program.

[snip]

 I guess I'd ask: Is it more important to enlighten people (and are we
 really doing that, or just scaring them off, or needlessly endangering
 them?) about torrents, or is it more important to make the installation of
 GIMP as easy and enjoyable as possible?

[snip]

 Maybe a link to torrent tutorials /help files if the user wants to
 enlighten themselves, and we should say right away why torrents help us, so
 the user can make an informed choice.
 
 TLDR:
 I think we could at least make the experience more pleasant, and we don't
 even have to change the options.


You've already answered your own questions yourself :)
Choosing torrents as the primary choice is not a bad choice, and if a
Google search is likely to return things related with the fabricated bad
reputation torrents have, the answer is not removing torrents but
communicating better why bittorrent is the right choice for software
distribution.
Enlightening people AND making the experience pleasant shouldn't be two
mutually exclusive options.
So yes, keeping the right options and teaking a little how the options
are communicated to users should be enough to avoid misunderstandings.


 People who do not read beyond the first line on our downloads page might
 not be happy with using GIMP, we might be doing them a favor with the
 current setup.
 
 I got scolded for expressing that opinion. Yea, was worded slightly
 different, but... lol
 
 Well, I've been an ass, been diplomatic... now I'm thinking of being lazy.
 Anyone wants graphics, let me know. I'm glad to help.

I'm a graphic designer like you, but I think this can be solved just by
tweaking the page contents alone. Text styling hierarchy should be
enough. 
Let's try to come up with a better wording for the options, adding some
short and easy information about the options, and that's it.
If some of those ideas can be communicated better with graphics than
with text, then let's try some graphics.
The download button solution has some drawbacks as Michael pointed
out, we should only use it if nothing better comes up.

Gez.

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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-07 Thread Robert Krawitz
On Fri, 08 May 2015 02:16:47 +0200, Michael Schumacher wrote:
 On 05/07/2015 09:39 PM, C R wrote:
 Yes, and to also force Bittorrent knowledge upon users.
 
 If I were a new user, I'd Google torrent and immediately get links for
 Pirate Bay and other dodgy stuff... nothing having to do with GIMP. 

 Exactly.

 The torrent files for GIMP are there to explicitly provide
 examples that are different to e.g. movie downloads - to make sure that
 this download method is not inherently linked to those.

To what end?  Is this to help GIMP users in some way, or to promote
BitTorrent for reasons unrelated to GIMP per se?  If it's the latter,
it has the feel of bundleware, the various helpful add-ons that
are included with all too many freeware downloads.  I realize there's
not the same kind of commercial tie-in, but it has the same effect of
trying to foist something on the user that isn't going to make his or
her life any easier.

 Thought we were trying to prevent people from going to 3rd party
 websites and downloading viruses accidentally. Having to install a
 3rd party downloader just to install GIMP is a pretty big hurdle for
 a lot of people, and they are likely to encounter lots of dangerous
 DOWNLOAD NOW buttons. ;) It takes trust in two different software
 packages just to install one program.

 Yes, this is a problem - and the current way of linking the Wikipedia
 Bittorrent clients list is not as good as linking one particular safe
 client for the current platform.

 For example, I pondered to go for Deluge for Windows, but didn't want to
 remove people's choices in favor of my own personal preference - but if
 there is some general agreement on good client options, we may link them
 directly.

It also forces users to go through a bunch of extra steps for no
purpose that's going to make their GIMP-using lives any easier: select
a client (the wikipedia page really is all but useless for someone
who's not particularly savvy already), hope that it's not yet another
Trojan horse (the wikipedia page itself says that there are some
clients that were discovered to be Trojans), download it, install it,
and go through an unfamiliar procedure just to download GIMP.  This is
going to be more difficult for people to do than simply search el G00G
for gimp, find somewhere else to download it from more easily...and
that download has all kinds of uglies bundled with it.  The
combination of said uglies and association of GIMP with various
unsavory things linked to BitTorrent would be a big turnoff for a lot
of people.  More persistent people will notice that there are direct
download links without the complexity, but what's the gain from
forcing people to go through this extra hassle?

 P.S. can you make your mail client reply to the list directly, instead
 of cc'ing it?

The list needs to set the reply-to: to make that work.
-- 
Robert Krawitz r...@alum.mit.edu

***  MIT Engineers   A Proud Tradition   http://mitathletics.com  ***
Member of the League for Programming Freedom  --  http://ProgFree.org
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Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-07 Thread Mukund Sivaraman
Hi schumaml

On Thu, May 07, 2015 at 05:41:34PM +0200, Michael Schumacher wrote:
 On 05/07/2015 10:25 AM, C R wrote:
 
  Is the torrent listed first to save bandwidth on download.gimp.org?
 
 Yes, and to also force Bittorrent knowledge upon users.

I favour changing this to a link to get the installer exe directly. I
say this from my own perspective: If I am downloading some free software
application for Windows, I'd prefer a direct link to the installer by
default rather than getting the torrent file. It is just convenient.

Also, as someone else said, forcing Bittorrent use upon users is not our
agenda. We can have it as an option. Right now, the big large Download
GIMP 2.8.14 Windows download link is counter intuitive to most users'
expectation.

Mukund


pgp8bqDaX_DoF.pgp
Description: PGP signature
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-07 Thread Michael Schumacher


On 05/07/2015 10:25 AM, C R wrote:

 Is the torrent listed first to save bandwidth on download.gimp.org?

Yes, and to also force Bittorrent knowledge upon users.

 If not, maybe we should offer up the direct download executable first
 to avoid confusion (and ranting and name-calling, apparently, lol).

The choice to endure the occasional complaint is deliberate.

 Generally I find most sites make dedicated button-looking graphics for
 various kinds of downloads.

Unfortunately, these graphics have been burnt quite a lot by ads linking
to malicious downloads, not using them so far is also a deliberate choice.

 I would be happy to make some up to disambiguate the downloading links, for
 our less torrent-savvy users.
 
 Thoughts?

People who do not read beyond the first line on our downloads page might
not be happy with using GIMP, we might be doing them a favor with the
current setup.


-- 
Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-06 Thread Kevin

On 2015-05-05 12:23, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

I would be the first to acknowledge that our downloads page isn't fun.
However I'm looking at it right now fro a Windows machine and I see a
huge download link at the top of the page, so I have no idea why
Farkas would even have to go as far as the list of mirrors.


The big download button on the top of the main page just takes you to 
the downloads page. Buried a long way down the page is a link to a 
development version of GIMP for Windows. The page needs a link to the 
site that has the released versions of GIMP for Windows.


--

Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/   |Nerds make the shiny things that 
distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  | the mouth-breathers, and that's why 
we're

| powerful!
#include disclaimer/favourite | --Chris Hardwick

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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-06 Thread Alexandre Prokoudine
On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 11:37 PM, Kevin wrote:

  our downloads page isn't fun. However I'm looking at it right now
 and I see a huge download link at the top of the page

 The big download button on the top of the main page

I wasn't talking about the main page.

 Buried a long way down the page is a link to a development version of
 GIMP for Windows.

I don't think that it's what was meant to be downloaded in this case.
However I do share your sentiment.

Alex
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-06 Thread Michael Schumacher


On 05/06/2015 10:37 PM, Kevin wrote:
 On 2015-05-05 12:23, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
 I would be the first to acknowledge that our downloads page isn't fun.
 However I'm looking at it right now fro a Windows machine and I see a
 huge download link at the top of the page, so I have no idea why
 Farkas would even have to go as far as the list of mirrors.
 
 The big download button on the top of the main page just takes you to
 the downloads page. Buried a long way down the page is a link to a
 development version of GIMP for Windows. The page needs a link to the
 site that has the released versions of GIMP for Windows.

It takes you to the downloads page, adjusted to the platform you are using.


-- 
Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-05 Thread C R
If downloading the proper installation file for your system is tiring your
mind, it is probably not the kind of mind that can handle learning GIMP.

Maybe hire a designer instead?

PS- Better get used to geeks, we make everything your sleepy brain loves in
life.
On 5 May 2015 14:12, Farkas Flórián farkas.flor...@velvet.hu wrote:

 Jesus, wtf, why don't you guys just provide a single freaking download
 link insteadof tiring my mind with three pages of technical bs about how to
 download gimp with20 mirrors and ftp servers and a torrent file.Stop being
 such freaking geeks, I'm looking for a program to use and don't want to
 spend more than 3 seconds downloading it. Get a fucking life seriously and
 don't tire me and normal users with your technical geek bullshit,or
 otherwise just don't publish this and keep it to yourselves.Thank you

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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-05 Thread C R
It's just... the entitlement, man, the entitlement. Lol. My apologies for
the wrong reply. I will attempt more diplomacy in the future.

On Tue, 5 May 2015 17:23 Alexandre Prokoudine 
alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 7:19 PM, C R wrote:
  If downloading the proper installation file for your system is tiring
 your
  mind, it is probably not the kind of mind that can handle learning GIMP.

 This would be the wrong kind of reply :)

 I would be the first to acknowledge that our downloads page isn't fun.
 However I'm looking at it right now fro a Windows machine and I see a
 huge download link at the top of the page, so I have no idea why
 Farkas would even have to go as far as the list of mirrors.

 Alex
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Re: [Gimp-developer] wtf with the download?

2015-05-05 Thread Alexandre Prokoudine
On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 7:19 PM, C R wrote:
 If downloading the proper installation file for your system is tiring your
 mind, it is probably not the kind of mind that can handle learning GIMP.

This would be the wrong kind of reply :)

I would be the first to acknowledge that our downloads page isn't fun.
However I'm looking at it right now fro a Windows machine and I see a
huge download link at the top of the page, so I have no idea why
Farkas would even have to go as far as the list of mirrors.

Alex
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