Re: [Gimp-developer] Joining the GNOME Foundation
Hi, On Mon, 2004-05-03 at 10:01, Dave Neary wrote: Daniel Rogers wrote: And if you are not a non-profit you need to pay taxes, wether or not you make money. (and if GIMP joins GNOME and abandons TGF, I'm the one that has to pay the 800 dollar minimum tax, I might add). I think that everyone should pool in together to pay this. I have a paypal account, if we use it for nothing else, we should use it to raise the $800 for this. Of course. Dan should not have to pay this out of his own pocket. Regards, Brix -- Henrik Brix Andersen [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Joining the GNOME Foundation
Hi, Nathan Carl Summers wrote: On Sat, 1 May 2004, David Neary wrote: Are there any people opposed to closer ties with the GNOME Foundation? I don't see any reason why we can't do both: work closely with the GNOME Foundation now, while the GIMP Foundation is getting off the ground, and then continuing to work with them to some extent once the GIMP Foundation is a reality. There is only one - a coprporation in California (the state that the GIMP Foundation is incorporated in) has a minimum income tax charge of $80year, even if you don't do anything. So while we're not doing anything with the GIMP Foundation, someone's out of pocket for that. Of course, we might decide that's something we're prepared to do, and chip in once a year to get the $800 among ourselves, or solicit funds for that. But it's a consideration which means that it's hard to do nothing with a GIMP Foundation (in addition, a foundation that's doing nothing will not easily get non-profit status). Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Joining the GNOME Foundation
On 3 May 2004, at 9:05, Daniel Rogers wrote: Sven Neumann wrote: It's not that we wouldn't put a lot of effort into making GIMP work well on a GNOME desktop. Adhering to FreeDesktop standards is one of our goals and we are even working towards full GNOME HIG compliance. The only things we really want to avoid is to be forced to do any of this. Above all, everyone should know you are a volunteer. And as long as you are a volunteer, noone can tell you to do anything. The law can. The GPL has this nice provision stating that, since we're all volunteers and we're giving the stuff away, you cannot hold us responsible if the GIMP blows up in your face. However, judges hold a dimmer view of such provisions. Of course, this has little to do with the GNOME Foundation, I just wanted to point out that your reasoning was less than perfect, and that if I can think of an exception, there may be more, and more relevant ones at that. Since we aren't a GNOME application, noone can force us into anything and that's a good thing. GNOME still can't force any volunteer to do anything. The worst damage they could do is, do this or we we will withold some funding but even then, you are no better off then you are now. If the funding was given to the GNOME Foundation with the im- or explicit wish it be used for GIMP development, the donor would rightfully feel cheated. -- branko collin [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Joining the GNOME Foundation
On 3 May 2004, at 12:51, Sven Neumann wrote: Every time we port GIMP to new features of the GIMP toolkit I get the strong impression that we are the first using the new API. Is this phenomenon constricted to GTK? -- branko collin [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Joining the GNOME Foundation
Kelly Martin wrote: I'd be very surprised if the GNOME Foundation passed along *all* funds untouched donated with a simple earmark for the GIMP to the GIMP people; I would fully expect them to take an administrative fee of between 5% and 50% (maybe even more). You might want to have an agreement in writing on this point before you start using them to fundraise. Dave neary and I talked to Tim Ney about this. There is goign to be a small cut taken by TGF. It is very close to the lower end of your range, but I won't know specifically until the board approves the number (which they are supposed to do soon). -- Dan ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Joining the GNOME Foundation
On Sat, May 01, 2004 at 05:56:43PM +0100, Adam D. Moss wrote: (we've enjoyed peripheral use of some of their services such as CVS for a while). my personal experience with gnome cvs is really bad. i am paraphrasing one of the developers i have a great deal of respect for (paraphrasing since it has been a long time since he/she said this): I would not have moved the site to gnome cvs. after this opinion was expressed, the destruction of a ground up design started to occur. what was the thing i did that caused this destruction? i trusted a community run cvs system. i trusted that everyone with cvs access would be with the program. okay, prophet or instigator? the jury i appointed is still out on this, however, it seemed to be an accurate (however late) warning to me. i say that not only should we not put ourselves into a position where completely other people are telling us how to spend our funding but that we should also move the gimp development tree to wilber or beta wilber or whatever it is while it is in between things like it is. the crap email i get from rms lately, i really think that TheGIMP should not be put into the position of asking for anything. dsrogers, i do not want to install open office to read gimp documents. i would prefer the documentation be in gif format over doc. funny that i should be as fond of you as i am and still have you accusing me of things. all along, i have been glad that someone who seemed capable (even if quite easily frightened and so wanting to be seen as scary and rough on women) was handling this legalese crap. not using doc format was a really good suggestion, and an agreement with a long time gimp developer -- please do not eh, boost yourself by treating it as a what(?), threat from me. or it was a not good suggestion. it was in no way goading. i do not goad, unless you consider seconding an already expressed opinion goading. and that is a stretch. carol ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Joining the GNOME Foundation
Hi Dan, Daniel Rogers wrote: And if you are not a non-profit you need to pay taxes, wether or not you make money. (and if GIMP joins GNOME and abandons TGF, I'm the one that has to pay the 800 dollar minimum tax, I might add). I think that everyone should pool in together to pay this. I have a paypal account, if we use it for nothing else, we should use it to raise the $800 for this. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Joining the GNOME Foundation
Carol Spears wrote: On Sun, May 02, 2004 at 08:04:04PM +0200, David Neary wrote: (we use their toolkit and infrastructure, a few years ago they used to use our toolkit), did the name change? as far as i know it is still the gimp tool kit. There are only a very small number of people who really believe this to be still the case. It may still be called the GIMP Toolkit (but more more I've heard it called the GNOME Toolkit), but that is a historical nod. The GIMP Toolkit is less a GIMP project than the GIMP Print drivers. i was quite embarrassed for gnome when i saw how the elections worked on the irc. i know the irc is not really the same as the mail and the official business and such, however -- it was the only view i got at that point. Not sure what you're talking about here - GNOME Foundation elections work by sending a unique mail to every member of the GNOME Foundation, and then automatically parsing the reply to that mail to verify the identity of the sender, the ID on the mail and their voting preferences. No voting is done on IRC. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Joining the GNOME Foundation
On 2 May 2004, at 23:24, Carol Spears wrote: not using doc format was a really good suggestion, The solutions mankind has come up with to increase readability are diverse, and range from using open document formats to using capitals at the beginning of sentences and for the word 'I'. I recommend using them all. -- branko collin [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Joining the GNOME Foundation
Hi, Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There are only a very small number of people who really believe this to be still the case. It may still be called the GIMP Toolkit (but more more I've heard it called the GNOME Toolkit), but that is a historical nod. The GIMP Toolkit is less a GIMP project than the GIMP Print drivers. I disagree. Every time we port GIMP to new features of the GIMP toolkit I get the strong impression that we are the first using the new API. There's certainly a lot of interaction between GIMP and GTK+, way more than between GIMP and the gimp-print project. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Joining the GNOME Foundation
Hi, Daniel Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: See the problem I see with the GINPOG attitude and joining GNOME is that we are saying we are willing to take your money and your time and your developers, but we are not willing to actually show any support for you in any way. It's kinda datardly. GNOME wants to help us. It's not that we wouldn't put a lot of effort into making GIMP work well on a GNOME desktop. Adhering to FreeDesktop standards is one of our goals and we are even working towards full GNOME HIG compliance. The only things we really want to avoid is to be forced to do any of this. Since we aren't a GNOME application, noone can force us into anything and that's a good thing. It's just a matter of time before libgnome and libgnomeui will be completely obsoleted and all this functionality be in GTK+. At that time The GIMP will probably look and feel like any other GNOME application. Sven PS: See http://sven.gimp.org/gimp-new-image-dialog.png for an almost HIG compliant file-new dialog. This is a screenshot from the HEAD branch. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Joining the GNOME Foundation
Sven Neumann wrote: It's not that we wouldn't put a lot of effort into making GIMP work well on a GNOME desktop. Adhering to FreeDesktop standards is one of our goals and we are even working towards full GNOME HIG compliance. The only things we really want to avoid is to be forced to do any of this. Above all, everyone should know you are a volunteer. And as long as you are a volunteer, noone can tell you to do anything. If they every forget this fact, you can always politely remind them (or no-so-politely tell them to sod off). And really, the above is kinda the reason I think this is a good plan. We are already moving in the direction they would want us to, thus it is quite easy to join them. Since we aren't a GNOME application, noone can force us into anything and that's a good thing. GNOME still can't force any volunteer to do anything. The worst damage they could do is, do this or we we will withold some funding but even then, you are no better off then you are now. -- Dan ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Joining the GNOME Foundation
Daniel Rogers wrote: David Neary wrote: Are there any people opposed to closer ties with the GNOME Foundation? Well, GIMP is not part of GNOME, and this assertion was made repeatedly over the years. Apart from labeling GIMP more of a GNOME program, I wouldn't oppose (but I don't count much anyway :) I know, We could even change the name of the GIMP to the GINPOG it's been repeated so much. But this is a bunch of people with really close ties to the gimp (we use their toolkit and infrastructure, a few years ago they used to use our toolkit), who really want to help us both short term and long term. See the problem I see with the GINPOG attitude and joining GNOME is that we are saying we are willing to take your money and your time and your developers, but we are not willing to actually show any support for you in any way. Thne fears that I - as a Win32 user - have are that by moving closer to GNOME, GIMP might become too linux-centric. If those fears are unjustified, I'd be glad to presented the facts that render them invalid. HTH, Michael -- The GIMP http://www.gimp.org| IRC: irc://irc.gimp.org/gimp Sodipodi http://sodipodi.sf.net | IRC: irc://irc.gimp.org/sodipodi ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Joining the GNOME Foundation
Hi, Michael Schumacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thne fears that I - as a Win32 user - have are that by moving closer to GNOME, GIMP might become too linux-centric. If those fears are unjustified, I'd be glad to presented the facts that render them invalid. No facts, but since GIMP works nicely on Win32 and we don't want to change that, you can rest assured that we will not do any changes that would cause a regression on Win32. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Joining the GNOME Foundation
On 3 May 2004, Sven Neumann wrote: Hi, Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There are only a very small number of people who really believe this to be still the case. It may still be called the GIMP Toolkit (but more more I've heard it called the GNOME Toolkit), but that is a historical nod. I disagree. Every time we port GIMP to new features of the GIMP toolkit I get the strong impression that we are the first using the new API. There's certainly a lot of interaction between GIMP and GTK+, way more than between GIMP and the gimp-print project. It should be pointed out that Sven is our main point of contact between GTK and GIMP, so I'm sure he's much more aware of the continuing interaction between the two projects. Rockwalrus ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Joining the GNOME Foundation
On Sat, 1 May 2004, David Neary wrote: Hi all, Myself and Dan Rogers will be meeting with someone from the GNOME Foundation this week with the intention of having greater co-operation with them on things like money. For the moment, I am working under the supposition that the best option available to us is to join the GNOME Foundation. The alternative is that Dan continue with the work involved in creating an independent GIMP Foundation. The short term effects of doing this would be that we wouldn't have any way to accept tax-deductible donations in the US for this year, and it is unlikely (given Dan's current availability) that the foundation would have cleared up all paperwork issues and elected a board before the end of the year. On the other hand, a partnership with the GNOME Foundation would give us federal tax exempt status in the US now. We could probably work out an arrangement where contributions made to the GIMP get used for GIMP events. Are there any people opposed to closer ties with the GNOME Foundation? I don't see any reason why we can't do both: work closely with the GNOME Foundation now, while the GIMP Foundation is getting off the ground, and then continuing to work with them to some extent once the GIMP Foundation is a reality. Rockwalrus ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Joining the GNOME Foundation
On Sat, May 01, 2004 at 06:06:54PM +0200, David Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For the moment, I am working under the supposition that the best option available to us is to join the GNOME Foundation. That means that when we do fundraising, the donations would go to the GNOME Foundation, and when we have expenses we would ask the GNOME Foundation for money. In what way would this be different to we give the donations to the FSF and ask them nicely if we want money? The original idea behind a seperate gimp foundation was that begging would be necessary (even if the GNOME foudation might be rather open to giving money...) Are there any people opposed to closer ties with the GNOME Foundation? Well, GIMP is not part of GNOME, and this assertion was made repeatedly over the years. Apart from labeling GIMP more of a GNOME program, I wouldn't oppose (but I don't count much anyway :) -- -==- | ==-- _ | ---==---(_)__ __ __ Marc Lehmann +-- --==---/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / [EMAIL PROTECTED] |e| -=/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ XX11-RIPE --+ The choice of a GNU generation | | ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Joining the GNOME Foundation
Hi, Marc A. Lehmann wrote: On Sat, May 01, 2004 at 06:06:54PM +0200, David Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For the moment, I am working under the supposition that the best option available to us is to join the GNOME Foundation. That means that when we do fundraising, the donations would go to the GNOME Foundation, and when we have expenses we would ask the GNOME Foundation for money. In what way would this be different to we give the donations to the FSF and ask them nicely if we want money? The FSF has made it clear that they won't accept donations on behalf of GNU projects. They have always been very generous, and the only argument I can see against partnering with the GNOME Foundation is that it might annoy RMS and the FSF - it would be nice to know if this is the case *before* we do anything. It is possible that we could have an arrangement with the GNOME Foundation that priority be given to the GIMP for allocation of funds that were raised by us. The original idea behind a seperate gimp foundation was that begging would be necessary (even if the GNOME foudation might be rather open to giving money...) True. It's also true that the FSF has never let us down when we asked for funds. The only effect of this is that people will be able to give money to the GIMP, and be fairly sure that the money will go towards the GIMP (not certain, mind - the details of a partnership would need to be hammered out). Also, the GNOME Foundation has a track record handling bounty type donations, which the FSF does not, and since many of the proposals for funding that we get are of that type, it is in our interest to have some way to reply yes, thank you, how much were you planning to donate, and what features do you want? Currently we don't have that. Are there any people opposed to closer ties with the GNOME Foundation? Well, GIMP is not part of GNOME, and this assertion was made repeatedly over the years. Apart from labeling GIMP more of a GNOME program, I wouldn't oppose (but I don't count much anyway :) I know, We could even change the name of the GIMP to the GINPOG it's been repeated so much. But this is a bunch of people with really close ties to the gimp (we use their toolkit and infrastructure, a few years ago they used to use our toolkit), who really want to help us both short term and long term. And why wouldn't you count? Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary, Lyon, France E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Joining the GNOME Foundation
On Sun, May 02, 2004 at 08:04:04PM +0200, David Neary wrote: (we use their toolkit and infrastructure, a few years ago they used to use our toolkit), did the name change? as far as i know it is still the gimp tool kit. some of you have children. can you imagine asking them for money? i was quite embarrassed for gnome when i saw how the elections worked on the irc. i know the irc is not really the same as the mail and the official business and such, however -- it was the only view i got at that point. also interesting that the documents i read long ago (when i was looking at a gimp foundation) were in html and therefore easily readible with a web browser. i dont suggest html as the format for the documentation. and about goading people who are looking into things now. as much as it might behoove someone to think that i am trying to make life difficult for them, or whatever -- please do not confuse my comments about micro$oft binary text files with goading. you can suggest that i was sucking up to marc lehmann, and that would be perfectly true. also interesting that i am the person goading and not the developer who made the original statement -- but whatever. if you do make the documentation in html, perhaps you could allow Rapha?l to make it readible in netscape for you like he did for the whole gimp-user community. maybe dsrogers could use Rapha?l's help with this? carol ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Joining the GNOME Foundation
Hi all, Myself and Dan Rogers will be meeting with someone from the GNOME Foundation this week with the intention of having greater co-operation with them on things like money. For the moment, I am working under the supposition that the best option available to us is to join the GNOME Foundation. That means that when we do fundraising, the donations would go to the GNOME Foundation, and when we have expenses we would ask the GNOME Foundation for money. It would also be an idea to allow the Foundation to make wilber and GIMP T-shirts and the like to generate revenue. The alternative is that Dan continue with the work involved in creating an independent GIMP Foundation. As was discussed in Berlin last year, the initial powers and responsibilities of the foundation would be limited to a bank account and a federal tax ID, and the board would basically work on fundraising and spreading the message of GIMPLove (press releases and the like). The short term effects of doing this would be that we wouldn't have any way to accept tax-deductible donations in the US for this year, and it is unlikely (given Dan's current availability) that the foundation would have cleared up all paperwork issues and elected a board before the end of the year. On the other hand, a partnership with the GNOME Foundation would give us federal tax exempt status in the US now. We could probably work out an arrangement where contributions made to the GIMP get used for GIMP events. Are there any people opposed to closer ties with the GNOME Foundation? Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary, Lyon, France E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Joining the GNOME Foundation
David Neary wrote: Are there any people opposed to closer ties with the GNOME Foundation? As long as GIMP wouldn't be in a rush to / obligated to subscribe to their apalling standards of slaphappy dead-end over-engineering and 1991-shareware approach to user interface standards then I think it makes reasonable short-term sense to exploit what GNOME *does* seem to be good at which is the centralization of services, organisational and financial structure... if that's helpful to GIMP (we've enjoyed peripheral use of some of their services such as CVS for a while). --Adam -- Adam D. Moss . ,,^^ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.foxbox.org/ co:3 Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
