Re: [Gimp-developer] New microsoft image format

2006-05-27 Thread Alan Horkan

On Fri, 26 May 2006, Nathan Summers wrote:

 Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 18:52:44 -0400
 From: Nathan Summers [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: Not Photoshop gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu
 Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] New microsoft image format

 On 5/26/06, Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  If you hit the Do not agree option it will still let you read the
  specifications without agreeing.  I expect they'll change that soon
  though.

 Is there anything interesting in there?

In my opinion no, not really but you might find it more interesting.  The
ideas all seem to be more or less covered by other existing standards like
JPEG 2000 primarily and various others.

(Frankly I'm more interested in XPS/Metro which attempts to replace PDF,
and XAML/WVG/Avalon/whatever-they're-calling-it-this-week attempt to
replace SVG.)

--
Alan

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Re: [Gimp-developer] New microsoft image format

2006-05-27 Thread Michael Natterer
On Sat, 2006-05-27 at 08:08 +0100, Alan Horkan wrote:
 On Fri, 26 May 2006, Nathan Summers wrote:
 
  Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 18:52:44 -0400
  From: Nathan Summers [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Cc: Not Photoshop gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu
  Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] New microsoft image format
 
  On 5/26/06, Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
   If you hit the Do not agree option it will still let you read the
   specifications without agreeing.  I expect they'll change that soon
   though.
 
  Is there anything interesting in there?
 
 In my opinion no, not really but you might find it more interesting.  The
 ideas all seem to be more or less covered by other existing standards like
 JPEG 2000 primarily and various others.
 
 (Frankly I'm more interested in XPS/Metro which attempts to replace PDF,
 and XAML/WVG/Avalon/whatever-they're-calling-it-this-week attempt to
 replace SVG.)

Really? I'm not interested at all. Zero percent.

To me that looks like the usual M$ attempts to replace
just about anything that other people have done.

It's already ambivalent to have GIMP running on windows
at all, I'm not interested in taking this any further
by supporting these formats, and thereby supporting M$.
The free software community doesn't get any support from
them either.

just my 2 cent,
--mitch

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Re: [Gimp-developer] New microsoft image format

2006-05-27 Thread Nathan Summers

On 5/27/06, Michael Natterer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Sat, 2006-05-27 at 08:08 +0100, Alan Horkan wrote:

 (Frankly I'm more interested in XPS/Metro which attempts to replace PDF,
 and XAML/WVG/Avalon/whatever-they're-calling-it-this-week attempt to
 replace SVG.)

Really? I'm not interested at all. Zero percent.

To me that looks like the usual M$ attempts to replace
just about anything that other people have done.

It's already ambivalent to have GIMP running on windows
at all, I'm not interested in taking this any further
by supporting these formats, and thereby supporting M$.
The free software community doesn't get any support from
them either.


Plus the fact that M$ submarine patents are no idle threat.  I'm very
wary of M$ geeks baring gifts, especially when they explicitly don't
grant patent licenses in the legalease.

Anyway, all this reminds me that I started writing a pdf output plugin
a while ago.  Maybe I should dust it off this three-day weekend.

Rockwalrus
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Re: [Gimp-developer] New microsoft image format

2006-05-27 Thread Alan Horkan

On Sat, 27 May 2006, Michael Natterer wrote:

 Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 10:51:22 +0200
 From: Michael Natterer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
 Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] New microsoft image format

 On Sat, 2006-05-27 at 08:08 +0100, Alan Horkan wrote:
  On Fri, 26 May 2006, Nathan Summers wrote:
 
   Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 18:52:44 -0400
   From: Nathan Summers [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   To: Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Cc: Not Photoshop gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu
   Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] New microsoft image format
  
   On 5/26/06, Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
If you hit the Do not agree option it will still let you read the
specifications without agreeing.  I expect they'll change that soon
though.
  
   Is there anything interesting in there?
 
  In my opinion no, not really but you might find it more interesting.  The
  ideas all seem to be more or less covered by other existing standards like
  JPEG 2000 primarily and various others.

The summer of code work on Jpeg 2000 support should provide a good counter
point and give one less reason for the new Microsoft image format to
gain an audience.

More contributors are preferable to non contributing users but if it keeps
them away from proprietary formats which hurt us in the long run the
network effect of many users turn a small difference into a big defense.

  (Frankly I'm more interested in XPS/Metro which attempts to replace PDF,
  and XAML/WVG/Avalon/whatever-they're-calling-it-this-week attempt to
  replace SVG.)

 Really? I'm not interested at all. Zero percent.

 To me that looks like the usual M$ attempts to replace
 just about anything that other people have done.

That is the part that interested me, I'll be interested to see it fail
hopefully.  I'm not saying the format is necessarily any good but it is
interesting to see Microsoft try to reinvent the wheel.  I hope the
drawing part of XAML to end up deader than VML.  Since acrobat reader is
so horribly slow by default I think XPS might stand a decent chance of
carving out at least a small niche but perhaps a windows port of Evince
(or KPDF or or ...) would give diserning users a faster alternative to
Adobe and reduce there interest in what Microsoft might offer.

 It's already ambivalent to have GIMP running on windows
 at all,

I wholeheartedly support more Free Software for those still stuck on a
proprietary Operating System.  It is what put me on the path to using more
Free Software and a free operating system.  There are times when I
dont have the choice of operating system but I do still have the option of
installing additional software.

 I'm not interested in taking this any further by supporting these
 formats, and thereby supporting M$.

I wonder if creating importers for these formats would reinforce them or
help get users away from them?  Of course it all depends on if a
developer decides it is interesting enough to implement.

Free and open standards are very important.  It is shame we dont yet have
a suitable standard for sharing layered raster images.

--
Alan

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Re: [Gimp-developer] New microsoft image format

2006-05-26 Thread Alan Horkan

On Thu, 25 May 2006, Nathan Summers wrote:


  I di dnot download it, bu I read the agreement for ownlaoding it. One
  keep his soul and his mother in doing so. I mean- there is no nasty

  They announce  a lot of miracles for this format, and it would be nice
  to be able to read and write to it if half of then hold true.

 They lost me with the first sentence of the first clause:

If you hit the Do not agree option it will still let you read the
specifications without agreeing.  I expect they'll change that soon
though.

-- 
Alan
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Re: [Gimp-developer] New microsoft image format

2006-05-26 Thread Nathan Summers

On 5/26/06, Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


If you hit the Do not agree option it will still let you read the
specifications without agreeing.  I expect they'll change that soon
though.


Is there anything interesting in there?

Rockwalrus
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[Gimp-developer] New microsoft image format

2006-05-25 Thread Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris
Just missing the deadline for a SoC sponsored plugin for it, 
microsoft released the specs for their new image file format here:


http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/xps/wmphoto.mspx

I di dnot download it, bu I read the agreement for ownlaoding it. One 
keep his soul and his mother in doing so. I mean- there is no nasty 
NDA, it seems possible to implement a free software  as fara s 
copyright issues stand, for reading and writing the beast - but the 
nDA says that software patents involving that owned by MS still 
apply.

They announce  a lot of miracles for this format, and it would be nice 
to be able to read and write to it if half of then hold true.

JS
--

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Re: [Gimp-developer] New microsoft image format

2006-05-25 Thread Nathan Summers

On 5/25/06, Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Just missing the deadline for a SoC sponsored plugin for it,
microsoft released the specs for their new image file format here:


http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/xps/wmphoto.mspx

I di dnot download it, bu I read the agreement for ownlaoding it. One
keep his soul and his mother in doing so. I mean- there is no nasty
NDA, it seems possible to implement a free software  as fara s
copyright issues stand, for reading and writing the beast - but the
nDA says that software patents involving that owned by MS still
apply.

They announce  a lot of miracles for this format, and it would be nice
to be able to read and write to it if half of then hold true.


They lost me with the first sentence of the first clause:
You may review these Materials only (a) as a reference to assist You
in planning and designing Your product, service or technology
(Product) to interface with a Microsoft product, specification,
service or technology (Microsoft Product) as described in these
Materials; and (b) to provide feedback on these Materials to
Microsoft.

Talk about a viral license!  If you design your own format that uses
features similar to this format, you're breaking the agreement.  Or if
you do a review of it.  Etc.

Hypocritically, while Microsoft gives you no patent license, if you
make a suggestion to them, they automatically get a patent license
from you.  Really, the lack of patent licenses is very disturbing,
especially given MS's anti-GPL stance.

Oh, and oddly enough, if you read this spec as part of your job and
the company you work for gets bought out, you have to agree to destroy
all your copies of the specification.  That's fun.

All I can say is that it's too bad that the text box that the license
shows up in isn't editable. :)

Rockwalrus
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