[Gimp-developer] Re: [Gimp-user] The GIMP Foundation

2004-03-08 Thread Kelly Martin
Dave Neary wrote:

Daniel Rogers wrote:

Avoid self-dealing.


What's this?
Self-dealing is whenever the people who control the organization command the 
organization to do business with themselves in their personal capacity. 
Self-dealing tears the veil and makes the director or officer who engages in 
it personally liable for the corporation's debt by creating the presumption that 
the corporation is an alter ego of the individual.  In the case of a 
non-profit, it also violates the rule against private inurement.

It means, inter alia, that the directors of the non-profit cannot also receive 
money from it except possibly a small stipend and reimbursement of their 
expenses in attending board meetings and other organization functions.  Being a 
member of the board of a non-profit organization is charity work: you generally 
cannot expect to get paid.

If you're looking to get a job with the GIMP Foundation, you can't also be a 
member of its board of directors (except as an ex-officio member, which the 
Executive Director typically would be).  This doesn't mean that the Foundation 
can't hire staff, just that those staff can't be the ones making the ultimate 
decisions on how to spend the organization's money.  Staff can recommend, but 
final approval of at least the general budget has to be by the volunteer board. 
 To do otherwise risks a finding that the organization inures to the benefit of 
a private party, which destroys non-profit status.

I'm very interested in the idea of a Foundation and would love to be a part of 
one, but I have no expectation of it turning into a personal revenue stream.

Kelly

___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer


Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: [Gimp-user] The GIMP Foundation

2004-03-08 Thread Daniel Rogers
On Mar 8, 2004, at 8:25 AM, Kelly Martin wrote:

Dave Neary wrote:

Daniel Rogers wrote:
Avoid self-dealing.
What's this?
Self-dealing is whenever the people who control the organization 
command the organization to do business with themselves in their 
personal capacity. Self-dealing tears the veil and makes the 
director or officer who engages in it personally liable for the 
corporation's debt by creating the presumption that the corporation is 
an alter ego of the individual.  In the case of a non-profit, it 
also violates the rule against private inurement.
this is true, but it deals more directly with, as a board member, 
arranging a deal between The GIMP foundation and a board member.  
Self-dealing is when, for example, you own some property that you wish 
to sell to TGF and you are on TGF board.  You have to do some full 
disclousure, follow very specific rules, and making too much money is 
frowned upon. Really it is not so much about avoidance (but that helps) 
as much as it is about following the rules.  California and the US are 
very picky about making sure that non-profits are not used as a vehical 
to profit the board members.


It means, inter alia, that the directors of the non-profit cannot also 
receive money from it except possibly a small stipend and 
reimbursement of their expenses in attending board meetings and other 
organization functions.  Being a member of the board of a non-profit 
organization is charity work: you generally cannot expect to get paid.
this is not true, actually.  51% of the members have to be 
disinterested.  It means that 51% of the board members cannot 
themselves or anyone related to them be paid (except the stipend and 
compensation you mentioned).  Related, here, has a very specific 
definition.  It means that if there are four board members, and I am 
getting paid to hack on gegl by TGF, then none of the other board 
members can get paid.  It also means that if I hire my wife to do some 
work, then I am interested and no one else (or their relatives) on a 
four person board can get paid.

If you're looking to get a job with the GIMP Foundation, you can't 
also be a member of its board of directors (except as an ex-officio 
member, which the Executive Director typically would be).  This 
doesn't mean that the Foundation can't hire staff, just that those 
staff can't be the ones making the ultimate decisions on how to spend 
the organization's money.
Again, this is _not_ true.  More than half must be volunteer though.


Staff can recommend, but final approval of at least the general budget 
has to be by the volunteer board.
This bit is true, except that the board must simply be more than half 
volunteer.

To do otherwise risks a finding that the organization inures to the 
benefit of a private party, which destroys non-profit status.
There are of course, other ways to destroy non-profit status, such as 
getting too much regular funding from a single source.

I'm very interested in the idea of a Foundation and would love to be a 
part of one, but I have no expectation of it turning into a personal 
revenue stream.
Again, if you are a board member, you could get a job with TGF.  But 
seeing how TGF, at this point, is not exactly handing out jobs, I would 
agree with this sentiment.

--
Dan
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer


[Gimp-developer] Re: [Gimp-user] The GIMP Foundation

2004-03-08 Thread Dave Neary
Daniel Rogers wrote:
Avoid self-dealing.
What's this?

Be honest.
Is this true of every board? Even Halliburton?

1.  Will TGF have members?  I am talking about members with voting
privledges, like I described above.  (my vote is yes, btw)
Yes.

2.  Should the membership be paid?   (my vote is yes, for like $50 a
year or some toher small amount.  It helps for tax purposes).
Why not - this is also common in France. That means setting up paypal I
guess... Although the GNOME foundation have a membership policy which fits in
better with the Open Source model - there is a membership committee, which
considers applications for membership on a case-by-case basis based on
participation in the community. Membership is reconsidered every 3 years, and is
free.
3.  Should the membership have additional rights?
Aside from voting in the board? Meh...

It would be useful to know who is interested in accepting the
responsibilites of being a board member (or officer).
Me. But a board can only work if the developers and the board work together 
towards the same goals, so to speak. If the board and the developers are in 
conflict, it'll bomb, or it'll be a PR disaster.

Cheers,
Dave.
--
Dave Neary
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer


[Gimp-developer] Re: [Gimp-user] The Gimp Foundation

2003-10-19 Thread Daniel Rogers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
For those of you who were wondering why you couldn't verify my
signiture: there you are.
I had forgotten this problem existed.  Thanks, John, for informing me of
this.
John Dietsch wrote:
| Daniel, Where is your public key? I can't verify your signature
| without it.
| John Dietsch
Well, I had forgotten that gpa doesn't let me export keys.  I have now
exported my keys to pgp.mit.edu (and thus most other keyservers),
manually.
Also, here:

- -BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-
Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)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=u0tT
- -END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
iD8DBQE/kcV9ad4P1+ZAZk0RAkStAJ4y1lwLE2HQm2wpCE5Iv4MD3yhZewCeJztk
UlSPVBHRQFMViz4Tk6YykrU=
=qXCI
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer


[Gimp-developer] Re: [Gimp-user] The Gimp Foundation

2003-10-13 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Daniel Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 As was discussed at Gimp Con 2003 (and before, frankly) I am in the
 process of incorporating The GIMP Foundation as a non-profit
 organization devoted to supporting the gimp.

Thanks a lot for organizing this.

 Here are some of the ideas I am currently mulling over regarding TGF:
 
 Selling t-shirts, coffee cups, lapel pins, posters, etc.
 Selling printed manuals.
 Selling GPL complient binary and source disributions on cd.
 Selling and paying people to go train and give presentations on the GIMP.
 Public and private grants.  (someone (like me) will need to apply for these)
 Tax deductable donations.
 buying hardware (computers, tablets, scanners, colorimeters).
 full color magazine ads
 free training sessions
 office space
 accounting
 legal expenses
 staff
 paying programmers, web designers, tech writers
 constructing a build farm (this would help both developers and in making
 a cd distribution).

This sounds a lot more like an attempt to bring WilberWorks back to
life than what I was imaging from such a foundation. IMO it should be
a lot less commercially oriented but maybe I am only getting a wrong
impression from looking at this list. I don't think a GIMP foundation
should share any interests with companies like for example MacGIMP.
IMO a foundation should not sell anything. It should serve as a
representant of the GIMP developers and it may accept donations
(actually that's one of the major points). It should also help to
create contacts between the GIMP community and people that seek for
advice or need speakers.  But IMHO there should be no t-shirts, no
printed manuals, no CDs and most importanyly no ads. If someone wants
to do this kind of stuff, feel free to found a company and try your
luck.


Sven
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer


[Gimp-developer] Re: [Gimp-user] The Gimp Foundation

2003-10-13 Thread Daniel Rogers
Sven Neumann wrote:

This sounds a lot more like an attempt to bring WilberWorks
Wilber what?  I plead ignorant.

back to
life than what I was imaging from such a foundation. IMO it should be
a lot less commercially oriented but maybe I am only getting a wrong
impression from looking at this list. I don't think a GIMP foundation
should share any interests with companies like for example MacGIMP.
IMO a foundation should not sell anything. It should serve as a
representant of the GIMP developers and it may accept donations
(actually that's one of the major points). 
And donations would be one of its major points.  However having a reliable source of 
money, like manual and chachka sales can only help TGF be more helpful.  Basically, 
_anything_ TGF does will cost money.  The more money it has, the more helpful things it 
can do.

The FSF foundation, for example, collects membership dues (which are tax deductable 
donations) and sells tshirts, pins, stickers, posters, manuals, cds, has a corporate 
patronage program, in addition to seeking out private donations.  The gnome foundation at 
least has tshirts, coffee mugs and the like that it gives to big donators, and is making 
some kind of noise about setting up a store.  The mozilla foundation doesn't have these 
things, but I am willing to bet that they will in the future.

Essentially, I can't run this thing forever, for free.  There needs to be some way of 
making enough money to reliably pay for things like filing fees.  Besides, people are more 
willing to donate money if we can give them something for the donation.

As for being a representative of the GIMP developers, I think this should be TGF's primary 
responsibility.  However, doing that also costs money.  There are phone bills, mailing 
costs, travel costs, gas costs, my accounting is _almost_ free but will still cost 
something (and accounting is important to keep our tax-exempt status).

It should also help to
create contacts between the GIMP community and people that seek for
advice or need speakers.  But IMHO there should be no t-shirts, no
printed manuals, no CDs and most importanyly no ads. If someone wants
to do this kind of stuff, feel free to found a company and try your
luck.
Yes.  I hope I haven't mislead people into thinking I am trying to start some kind of 
commerical venture.

Believe me, I am not.  However, I am trying to think of as many ways as possible to be as 
helpful as possible to the gimp community.  All of these things require money.  Paying for 
things like the next GimpCon, and making presentations happen are some of the best ways I 
can come up with to help the Gimp Community.  I want to do these things.  If I am doing 
these things, then I feel TGF is being successful.  However to be able to do these things 
we need money.  The more money we have, the more successful I feel running TGF.

As far as printed manuals go, I think they are important.  I really like printed 
documentation (it is waay better than online documentation) and I think printed manuals go 
a long ways toward encouraging people to use (and thus donate to!) the gimp.  Binary 
packages are in this same vein, but, I think, less important, since distros (and Tor) will 
prepare packages for us.

--
Dan
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer


Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: [Gimp-user] The Gimp Foundation

2003-10-13 Thread Raphaël Quinet
On 13 Oct 2003 11:55:27 +0200, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Daniel Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  As was discussed at Gimp Con 2003 (and before, frankly) I am in the
  process of incorporating The GIMP Foundation as a non-profit
  organization devoted to supporting the gimp.
 
 Thanks a lot for organizing this.
 
  Here are some of the ideas I am currently mulling over regarding TGF:
 
[...]
 
 This sounds a lot more like an attempt to bring WilberWorks back to
 life than what I was imaging from such a foundation. IMO it should be
 a lot less commercially oriented but maybe I am only getting a wrong
 impression from looking at this list. [...]

Sorry if this sounds like a me too but I would like to second this.

After watching your (Daniel) presentation at GimpCon2003 and the
discussion that followed, I thought that the main roles of the GIMP
Foundation would be:
- to be a non-profit organization that can collect donations without
  trying to sell anything by itself;
- to serve as a contact point for conferences and events interested in
  GIMP presentations.

Selling GIMP tee-shirts, manuals, CDs and other stuff may be
interesting, but I would prefer to have this done by a company that
would be a separate legal entity.  Otherwise, there could be some
conflicts between a commercial GIMP Foundation and the companies that
are already selling GIMP stuff (ftgimp, macgimp/wingimp, xdarwin and
probably several others).  I would like the GIMP Foundation to be seen
as neutral and clearly non-commercial, so that the companies who are
selling GIMP CDs could make a donation to the foundation without
feeling that they are giving money to a potential competitor.

-Raphaël
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer


[Gimp-developer] Re: [Gimp-user] The Gimp Foundation

2003-10-13 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Daniel Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Sven Neumann wrote:
 
  This sounds a lot more like an attempt to bring WilberWorks
 
 Wilber what?  I plead ignorant.

Oh well, one should really run one's own internet archive. The website
seems bought off and of course not much is left to be found on google
and friends. This is the best link I could find:

 http://linux.rice.edu/webmap/appdescriptions/WilberWorks.html

Let's hope one of the folks involved into this can tell us more about
the goals of WilberWorks and why it didn't work (that well). Perhaps
there are things we can learn from it...

 And donations would be one of its major points.  However having a
 reliable source of money, like manual and chachka sales can only
 help TGF be more helpful.  Basically, _anything_ TGF does will cost
 money.  The more money it has, the more helpful things it can do.

If you put it that way (with all the other things you said in your
reply) it feels a lot better already.


Sven
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer


[Gimp-developer] Re: [Gimp-user] The Gimp Foundation

2003-10-13 Thread Daniel Rogers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Sven Neumann wrote:
| Thanks a lot for organizing this.
you're welcome.

- --
Dan
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
iD8DBQE/i3VQad4P1+ZAZk0RAoP7AJ9DMaylrJB3h6Snuw3O6SFEM32P0gCfYpMx
A8vbP5we4CIVmcEo4YjiRUc=
=D2ll
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer