Re: [Gimp-developer] Scissors tool

2004-12-09 Thread Laxminarayan Kamath
On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 09:46:29 +0100, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi,
 
 
 
 Laxminarayan Kamath [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 21:45:36 +0100, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Hi,
  I used it earlier today and it fit my needs. I don't see why we should
  remove it only because you don't like it. Even if we came to the
  conclusion that it would be better to hide it,
  Sven
 
  Are threre any poll engines you would like to use?
 
 OK, two things:
 
 (1) Your question doesn't make any sense to me.
 (2) Please don't send me private emails but stick with the mailing-lists.
 
 
 Sven
 

OOps, Sorry Sven, Gmail is nice but is confusing for replies. Will be
care full next time.
By the way,  what i mean is, when such confusions occur, like whether
or not to remove a tool from the toolbar, isn't it nice to have a poll
engine and make the poll public?

-- 
Laxminarayan Kamath Ammembal
MithraKoota, Bhoja Rao Lane,
Mangalore 575003
(+91) 9845 061385
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.geocities.com/kamathln
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer


Re: [Gimp-developer] Scissors tool

2004-12-09 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Laxminarayan Kamath [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 By the way, what i mean is, when such confusions occur, like whether
 or not to remove a tool from the toolbar, isn't it nice to have a
 poll engine and make the poll public?

No, I don't think such questions should be decided by means of a
poll. This is GIMP development, not some kind of democracy ;)


Sven
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer


Re: [Gimp-developer] Scissors tool

2004-12-09 Thread Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris
On Thursday 09 December 2004 06:45, Laxminarayan Kamath wrote:

 OOps, Sorry Sven, Gmail is nice but is confusing for replies. Will
 be care full next time.
 By the way,  what i mean is, when such confusions occur, like
 whether or not to remove a tool from the toolbar, isn't it nice to
 have a poll engine and make the poll public?

You are worrying over the edge here.
There is no chance this tool will be removed - not this time, nor 
soon.

What happened is that I, having the opinion that the tool is borken, 
sent a question about it to the list - which is public, in some 
sense.  People replied that  not only it is actually usable, but they 
use it on an often basis.

Therefore, there is no sense in hiding it.
And just one more point: I never suggested the removal of the tool, 
but just hiding the tool - it would be available from dialogs-tools, 
even to be put back into the toolbox.

If  a change is made to the GIMP that you do not like - in a way it 
brakes the way you work, Bugzilla is the place to ask for the old 
behavior back. 

Recently, for example, there was a bug asking for the old behavior of 
the Move tool - that would change the selected layer. That was 
promptly implemented as an option.

Regards.

JS
--
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer


Re: [Gimp-developer] Scissors tool

2004-12-09 Thread Laxminarayan Kamath
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 09:27:02 -0200, Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Thursday 09 December 2004 06:45, Laxminarayan Kamath wrote:
 
  OOps, Sorry Sven, Gmail is nice but is confusing for replies. Will
  be care full next time.
  By the way,  what i mean is, when such confusions occur, like
  whether or not to remove a tool from the toolbar, isn't it nice to
  have a poll engine and make the poll public?
 
 You are worrying over the edge here.
 There is no chance this tool will be removed - not this time, nor
 soon.
 
 What happened is that I, having the opinion that the tool is borken,
 sent a question about it to the list - which is public, in some
 sense.  People replied that  not only it is actually usable, but they
 use it on an often basis.
 
 Therefore, there is no sense in hiding it.
 And just one more point: I never suggested the removal of the tool,
 but just hiding the tool - it would be available from dialogs-tools,
 even to be put back into the toolbox.
 
 If  a change is made to the GIMP that you do not like - in a way it
 brakes the way you work, Bugzilla is the place to ask for the old
 behavior back.
 
 Recently, for example, there was a bug asking for the old behavior of
 the Move tool - that would change the selected layer. That was
 promptly implemented as an option.
 
 Regards.
 
 JS
 --

Yeah I now agree. In poll, you only understand the overall view,not
what the user/developer really wants. The poll idea was *bullshit*.
unless it extends way beyond radio buttons. which comes back to the
idea of mailing lists ;)
-- 
Laxminarayan Kamath Ammembal
MithraKoota, Bhoja Rao Lane,
Mangalore 575003
(+91) 9845 061385
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.geocities.com/kamathln
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer


Re: [Gimp-developer] Scissors tool

2004-12-08 Thread Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris
On Wednesday 08 December 2004 04:17, Austin Donnelly wrote:


 I think I was probably the last person to do any major work on the
 scissors tool, and that was in 1999 to port it to the (then new)
 tile-based world.

 The code when I took it on was a software Vietnam; a complete
 mess.  I had to read the SIGGRAPH paper it was attempting to
 implement before I could fix it, and believe me it left my hands
 much cleaner than I got it!

 There are two areas where it could do with improvement:
   - it doesn't handle tile-boundaries (it treats them as edges)

hmm..this explains the major complaint I had about it.
Sorry again to all who make use of the tool. 

   - the point editing interface sucks; I merely made the existing
 one work but it might be interesting to see if it could use the
 same code from the Path tool (that was always the plan)

It may not be fine, but it works. As stated in other e-mail, it could 
benefit from undo. The tile boundary == edge thing is not good.

 Austin


Regards,
Joao
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer


Re: [Gimp-developer] Scissors tool

2004-12-08 Thread Simon Budig
Austin Donnelly ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
[scissors tool]
 I think I was probably the last person to do any major work on the scissors
 tool, and that was in 1999 to port it to the (then new) tile-based world.
 
 The code when I took it on was a software Vietnam; a complete mess.  I had
 to read the SIGGRAPH paper it was attempting to implement before I could fix
 it, and believe me it left my hands much cleaner than I got it!
 
 There are two areas where it could do with improvement:
   - it doesn't handle tile-boundaries (it treats them as edges)

I am not sure if that is really the case. I some time ago looked at the
code and I believe that the broken behaviour for areas of very similiar
colors (i.e. preferring multiple of 45° lines instead of straight lines
between control points) is not correlated to tile boundaries and stems
from the fact, that the algorithm moves pixel by pixel without taking
the deviation from the straight line into account.

IIRC (been a time and the code definitely is nontrivial) the paper
specifies a function $f_D$ to have high costs for sharp changes in
boundary detection and I don't remember seeing an equivalent of this in
the code (might very well have missed it though).

Sorry for not being more specific about that.

   - the point editing interface sucks; I merely made the existing one work
 but it might be interesting to see if it could use the same code from the
 Path tool (that was always the plan)

That'd indeed rock. Intelligend Scissors could just be a path tool that
has a very crude way to calculate the segment between two control
points. The API might already support this (you can have custom stroke
types) but details would be needed to work this out (we'd then have
a dependency between the path and the associated drawable, since the
path needs the drawable to figure out its outline).

Bye,
Simon
-- 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://simon.budig.de/
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer


Re: [Gimp-developer] Scissors tool

2004-12-08 Thread Raphaël Quinet
On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 14:31:10 +0100, Simon Budig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Austin Donnelly ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 [scissors tool]
- the point editing interface sucks; I merely made the existing one work
  but it might be interesting to see if it could use the same code from the
  Path tool (that was always the plan)
 
 That'd indeed rock. Intelligend Scissors could just be a path tool that
 has a very crude way to calculate the segment between two control
 points. The API might already support this (you can have custom stroke
 types) but details would be needed to work this out (we'd then have
 a dependency between the path and the associated drawable, since the
 path needs the drawable to figure out its outline).

This is a side issue, but for the intelligent scissors there is another
feature that I thought about: adjusting the position of a selected
control point automatically within a small radius (e.g., 5 pixels),
based on the closest bits of the calculated segments attached to that
point.

Sometimes when I use the IScissors and I forget to zoom in to add some
control points precisely, I end up with a control point that is a few
pixels off of the edge that I want to select.  The calculated segments
are then hugging the shape quite closely except for the pixels close to
the misplaced control point (i.e., there is a little bit that sticks
out of the shape).

Although being able to move the control points as in the Path tool would
already solve most of the problem, it could be interesting to have an
option to re-position a selected control point automatically.  This has
a rather low priority: it is just a nice to have thing.

-Raphaël
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer


Re: [Gimp-developer] Scissors tool

2004-12-07 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]

I introduce about 50 beginning students each year
to the GIMP, and in my experience, this tool seems
to be one of the best piquant tools for the students
to use.  If anyting, I'd make it easier to undo the 
last point added and make it easier to close the 
curve when done, but please don't remove the tool from
its default place in the toolbox.

_-T



Juno Gift Certificates
Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season.
http://www.juno.com/give

___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer


Re: [Gimp-developer] Scissors tool

2004-12-07 Thread Daniel Egger
On 06.12.2004, at 19:44, Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris wrote:
But nowadays, who seriously uses it?
I do. It's not very useful to mask an object in a low
contrast environment but it works perfectly well for
instance to mask an digitally photographed object against
a somewhat distant background to only modify the
background some more (reduce color intensity, blur, etc.)
to strengthen the effect of the photo.
Servus,
  Daniel


PGP.sig
Description: This is a digitally signed message part


Re: [Gimp-developer] Scissors tool

2004-12-07 Thread Tomas Mraz
On Tue, 2004-12-07 at 08:38 +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I introduce about 50 beginning students each year
 to the GIMP, and in my experience, this tool seems
 to be one of the best piquant tools for the students
 to use.
I second that.

 If anyting, I'd make it easier to undo the 
 last point added and make it easier to close the 
 curve when done
+1

-- 
Tomas Mraz [EMAIL PROTECTED]

___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer


Re: [Gimp-developer] Scissors tool

2004-12-07 Thread David Neary
Hi,

Tomas Mraz wrote:
  If anyting, I'd make it easier to undo the 
  last point added and make it easier to close the 
  curve when done
 +1

And that annoying bug where you can't have anchor points within 8
pixels of the left or top edges (and possible the other edge too). 

I am sure I've seen it in CVS, but can't find it right now. Am I
imagining things?

A hint for closing the curve - you can zoom in and out with + and 
- while editing a curve, which is handy for getting those clicks
right if there are a number of points (or if you miss the first
time). Also very handy for adding points or dragging anchors when
the curve is closed.

Cheers,
Dave.

-- 
David Neary,
Lyon, France
   E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CV: http://dneary.free.fr/CV/
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer


Re: [Gimp-developer] Scissors tool

2004-12-07 Thread Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris
/me shame on, and goes learn how to properly use it.

___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer


RE: [Gimp-developer] Scissors tool

2004-12-07 Thread Austin Donnelly
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:gimp-
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of William Skaggs
 Sent: 06 December 2004 19:05
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris
 Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] Scissors tool
 
[...]
 
 I looked at the code not too long ago, and my impression was that
 it reads like it was written by somebody who started with a
 complex and incomprehensible algorithm and then added kludges
 onto it in an attempt to get it to work.  The best approach might
 be to clear it out and start fresh.  It shouldn't be horribly
 difficult, since the problem of connecting two points with a
 curve that tries to hug edges is not really all that hard.
 (Finding a solution quickly when the points are far apart
 might be challenging, though.)

I think I was probably the last person to do any major work on the scissors
tool, and that was in 1999 to port it to the (then new) tile-based world.

The code when I took it on was a software Vietnam; a complete mess.  I had
to read the SIGGRAPH paper it was attempting to implement before I could fix
it, and believe me it left my hands much cleaner than I got it!

There are two areas where it could do with improvement:
  - it doesn't handle tile-boundaries (it treats them as edges)
  - the point editing interface sucks; I merely made the existing one work
but it might be interesting to see if it could use the same code from the
Path tool (that was always the plan)

Austin


___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer


[Gimp-developer] Scissors tool

2004-12-06 Thread Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris
Hi!

I should've done this __very__ earlier on the dev. cycle. But the fact 
is that I think developers should seriopusly consider the visibility 
of the scissors tool on the tool box.

I mean - it is a good hack, it is there for historical reasons, and 
the graphic algorithyms behind it are nice for paper presentations 
and etc...

But nowadays, who seriously uses it? 
The fact is  that it doesn't deliver the functionality it should, 
and is simply awkard. The new Vectors interface from GIMP 2.0 allows 
one to do with vectors what the Scissors tool should be doing, only 
it is easier to use, and to figure out how to use.

That said, I raise the question: Should the scissors tool be visible 
by default in the toolbox?


___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer


Re: [Gimp-developer] Scissors tool

2004-12-06 Thread William Skaggs

Joao wrote:
 That said, I raise the question: Should the scissors tool be visible
 by default in the toolbox? 

Well, the real problem with it is that the edge-hugging algorithm
sucks.  It would be a very useful tool if it actually worked.  So
I suppose my attitude is:

a) It's too late in the 2.2 development cycle to make such a major
   change.

b) In the next cycle, it would be very nice if somebody could improve
   the tool's algorithm.

I looked at the code not too long ago, and my impression was that
it reads like it was written by somebody who started with a
complex and incomprehensible algorithm and then added kludges
onto it in an attempt to get it to work.  The best approach might
be to clear it out and start fresh.  It shouldn't be horribly
difficult, since the problem of connecting two points with a
curve that tries to hug edges is not really all that hard.
(Finding a solution quickly when the points are far apart 
might be challenging, though.)

Best,
  -- Bill
 

 
__ __ __ __
Sent via the KillerWebMail system at primate.ucdavis.edu


 
   
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer


Re: [Gimp-developer] Scissors tool

2004-12-06 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I should've done this __very__ earlier on the dev. cycle. But the
 fact is that I think developers should seriopusly consider the
 visibility of the scissors tool on the tool box.

 I mean - it is a good hack, it is there for historical reasons, and
 the graphic algorithyms behind it are nice for paper presentations
 and etc...

 But nowadays, who seriously uses it?  The fact is that it doesn't
 deliver the functionality it should, and is simply awkard. The new
 Vectors interface from GIMP 2.0 allows one to do with vectors what
 the Scissors tool should be doing, only it is easier to use, and to
 figure out how to use.

I used it earlier today and it fit my needs. I don't see why we should
remove it only because you don't like it. Even if we came to the
conclusion that it would be better to hide it, we would definitely not
do this at this point of the development cycle (being in UI freeze for
several weeks).


Sven
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer


Re: [Gimp-developer] Scissors tool

2004-12-06 Thread David Neary
Hi,

Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris wrote:
 But nowadays, who seriously uses it? 

I use it all the time to get a first rough draft when cutting out
shapes. It's miles quicker than using bezier, and since
selections are just masks, I convert the selection to a mask and
fine-tune it afterwards. I have found that for me (low-end power
user if such a thing exists) this is the way I get decent results
quickest.

 That said, I raise the question: Should the scissors tool be visible 
 by default in the toolbox?

I think it is a more useful tool to beginners (and thus the
target audience of defaults) than the path tool.

Cheers,
Dave.

-- 
David Neary,
Lyon, France
   E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CV: http://dneary.free.fr/CV/
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer