[Gimp-developer] gimp gui wiki status update - need some dns love
Alexia Death has done a Death-Defying stunt and got the wiki working! I still need to configure apache - to do that I need gui.gimp.org to point to 174.142.40.129 - who can do that? Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] gimp GUI
but a good vector only tool is very important, with vector-to-web features... (like Fireworks) i still cannot understand why you call fireworks a vector only tool. last tim e i used it was primarily a raster editor. and if i look at its homepage http://www.macromedia.com/software/fireworks/ it still seems to be capable raster graphic aplication (with vector functions) if you can point me in the right direction for people who could design what about http://www.sodipodi.com/ and http://www.inkscape.org/ ? those are free worlds vector apps ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] gimp GUI
miriam clinton (iriXx) wrote: i'm familiar with sodipodi - its close, but no banana... needs a lot of work, but i'd like to help there too... havent seen inkscape yet - is it new? IIRC, inkscape started life as an off-shoot of sodipodi but it is now a separate project. The answer to the first question of the FAQ says in part: Inkscape was founded in 2003 by four Sodipodi developers, Bryce Harrington, MenTaLguY, Nathan Hurst, and Ted Gould, with the mission of creating a fully compliant SVG drawing tool written in C++ with a new, HIG-compliant interface and an open, community-oriented development process. It is considered to be useful to users but not ready to replace commercial vector editors (yet). The other project worth looking at is Skencil (formerly known as sketch). You can find information about it at http://www.skencil.org/. -- Cheers! Kevin. (http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/) Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172|What are we going to do today, Borg? E-mail:kcozens at interlog dot com|Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: Packet:[EMAIL PROTECTED]| Try to assimilate the world! #include disclaimer/favourite | -Pinkutus the Borg ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] gimp GUI
...and the reason behind that : Q: Why the split from Sodipodi? Mainly just differences in objectives and in development approach. Inkscape's objective is to be a fully compliant SVG editor, whereas for Sodipodi SVG is more a means-to-an-end of being a powerful vector illustration tool. Inkscape's development approach emphasizes open developer access to the codebase, as well as to use and contribute back to 3rd party libraries and standards such as HIG, CSS, etc. in preference to custom solutions. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] gimp GUI
On Sun, 24 Oct 2004, miriam clinton (iriXx) wrote: Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 12:12:46 -0700 From: miriam clinton (iriXx) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] gimp GUI thanks Sven and Carol for your answers... I'll get back to you with more details about the GUI, as i'm working on an art project at the moment, but to answer some immediate queries: - I'm using Photoshop 7.0 - strangely enough, I find it, and all the other tools I use, highly intuitive - the essence of a tool that a graphic designer can use is its intuitiveness, rather than usability. I try not to ever use the word intuitive because it is so easy not to realise your own biases. However the market dominance of Photoshop and mindshare it has cannot easily be discounted. More graphics users are familiar with how it works than just about anything else (barring mspaint) and more resources and tutorials are available for it than anything else so has serious benifits (network effect) merely by being the defacto standard. It would be better when in doubt to copy Adobe Photoshop if possible than to do things differently with a very good specific reason not to. Perhaps in this case we should use graphic designers as testers, alongside bug-testers? It is difficult for users to identify the root of a problem provide feedback that is specific enough for developers to work with and conversly it is difficult for developer to know what to implement when the only have feature suggestions rather than a specific problem or task to make easier to do. - I was using the GIMP supplied by Mandrake 9.2, but I'll download the latest version. An upgrade is recommended, it might also improve your enjoyment of the gimp if you make sure to install the gimp-data-extras and gimp-gap (Animation packages) amongst others. Try out as many of the different plug-ins as you can, you will find fammilar functionality under different names and place and I'm still finding out new things all the time and that is before you start lookign at plug-ins that are not included by default, see the plugin registry for more http://registry.gimp.org/ Dont ignore the Tip of the Day feature, read all of it if you have time. It was actually very carefully written unlike in most applictions because for a while it was the only documentation included with the gimp (or so I have been told). - First thing I'd suggest is stacking the Layers / Brushes etc. screens which at present you have to open from the top left hand menu - Photoshop keeps these permanently in appearance, stacked at the right hand corner, although you can double-click on the top of these mini-screens These screenshots of gimp 2 should give you a good idea of how thing have been changed to make it easier to manage windows http://gimp.org/screenshots/windowsxp_screenshot1.png http://gimp.org/screenshots/linux_screenshot2.png - A Navigation tool for zooming would be essential - again, somewhere in these mini-screens. There is a navigational tool, it can be found in the Dialogs menu. Also if you click on the cross arrows on the bottom right between the scrollbars there is another embedded overview widget. (both of these should be in the version you have). - This might become a patent problem - but what i'm really suggesting is user interface patents have not yet been inflicted on the rest of the world and it should be possible to produce similar but non-infringing functionality in many cases. - Its pretty hard to find where the effects are, and to know you have to right-click on the image to produce these. But that in itself is elegant, and avoids patent issues... gimp 2 includes a menubar, thank goodness! there are other improvements too, however i think not having the tool options options palette docked directly under the menus makes a big difference and make it harder for users familiar with photoshop. I think the essential problem with Effects is that its difficult to find out a) where they are located in the menu and b) what the heck do they do?... Also many of the effects are outdated or not as accurate as the Photoshop versions. if you can provide specifics it might be helpful. in some cases the gimp Filters provide a lot more options than the photoshop equivalents (at least the ones included with photoshop 7 that I've used) but they are not always easy to find. Only the other day I found you could changed the algorithm used for resizing in the tool options for the scale tool, although it is not shown in the Resize dialog (Image, Resize...) the way Photoshop does. - One thing i /LOVE/ about the GIMP is that you've now implemented layer effects (Multiply, Color Dodge, Color Burn etc.) - but these really need to be in a permanently open menu. gimp is/was missing 'Exclusion' though if you want to have a permanantly open menu the developers might be willing to add an extra tearoff if you asked nicely. the layer menu stays in place, appearing
Re: [Gimp-developer] gimp GUI
On Sat, Oct 23, 2004 at 10:31:40PM -0700, miriam clinton (iriXx) wrote: I have some experience in designing pngs and graphics for GNU/Linux music applications, as I am also a musician and a member of linux-audio-dev and linux-audio-user - the same discussion arose on those lists, also for another important reason - if we are to convert people to using GNU/Linux, the GUIs need to be as attractive as those in Winblows or Mac OS. welcome. thank you for your contribution to the gnu/linux world. it would be nice to see some examples of your work. we have a few artists involved with TheGIMP who have been using TheGIMP and the other GNUed applications to contribute this way for years. they would more than likely help you in any transition you are making from the other software environment to this one. I'm sorry if this message treads on many toes. But from the point of view of a designer - GIMP is designed by programmers, and therefore thinks in the manner of a programmer - the tools are difficult to use for graphic designers who are visual-thinkers. The menu is obscure, and it takes a great deal of mastery to create the same effects that we could do quickly and simply in Photoshop (err, some of the effects are rather dated too - but then again, some of the effects in Photoshop are similiarly outdated). I'm well aware of the problems which we face in regard to patents - I've also closely followed the Adobe vs. Macromedia lawsuits. no one will feel toes stepped on. it has been suggested for many many years that gimp tries to be photoshop or should be more like photoshop. i am not sure how long you have been using photoshop or what version you learned with. gimp-1.2 out-performed photoshop in ease of use in my experience with visual-thinkers. meaning, i watched a visual thinker try to make it work (photoshop) and couldnt. i am reminded of a child i worked with a couple of years ago. i was very sorry he was spending his time learning how AOL worked. he could have been learning how to make his computer work. you, as well, learned how to make photoshop work. learn gimp and it is easy to step into photoshop and work circles around those users. i am very sorry you spent this time learning how to use photoshop; especially if you were interested in free software. here is a secret about lawyers. they come in pairs; so if you dont get one, no one knows what to do with you. But I would very much like to comment from an artist's point of view on any improvements that I could suggest that might make GIMP more attractive to designers (and preferably, more attractive than photoshop). the developers have been working with artists since i started to watch them. perhaps you could fill in some details. which version of photoshop did you learn on? did you ever try paint shop pro or other payfor or steal software? I'm also interested to know if there is a port of an Adobe Illustrator-like application planned for the future. We need a good set of graphics tools, especially vector design and web design GUI-based tools such as the Macromedia suite to attract graphic designers - likewise there exists already an attractive and varied set of music applications which draw Winblows/Mac users to GNU/Linux. The desktop environments are extremely attractive - now we need to make the applications equally attractive, as many are frustrated by difficult-to-use applications, simply because of the GUI. Inkscape, i think. when asking developers a question, please do not assume they understand the software you were using. if you could describe the job that needs to be done and not the software you do not want to pay for any more it will be easier to get a response. this is something i learned from the new chix mail list. i am not sure how long you have been involved with free software, but perhaps you could join this mail list also so you can get a feel for the language and the way the developers communicate. so if you need to know what sort of software will draw textured shapes in three dimensions, or whatever (i am not at this point sure myself what illustrator does, anymore) it lets people know that 1) you do know what you are doing and 2) you respect that they were making tools not software clones. Again, apologies if this treads on toes - you're free to tell me to go shove it - but I'd very much like to comment and contribute as an artist and graphic designer. no toes treaded on, i am sure. these are fairly old suggestions. i would also not like to step on your toes, however suggest two different things. 1) that if you learn how to make graphics the way gimp does, your idea of attractive might expand and 2) richard was flirting. carol ps, i think that TheGIMP is very very attractive from the icons right down to its core and i wish i had charged my photoshop friends for teaching them how to use their expensive thing.
Re: [Gimp-developer] gimp GUI
Hi, miriam clinton (iriXx) [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As part of our discussions, I raised the issue of why I find the GIMP difficult to use as a graphic designer. Although it is quite a formidable translation of many of the graphics tools, we graphic designers are visual thinkers and rely heavily on the GUI to produce our work. Several of my colleagues have tried GIMP but find it difficult to work with for this reason. For what reason? You better tell us what exactly you find difficult to use. We are constantly working on improving the user interface so of course we are interested in feedback. Telling us that it is difficult to use (and not even telling us what version you have been using when you made that experience), is however not very helpful. I'm sorry if this message treads on many toes. How could your message thread on any toes? You didn't say anything yet. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] gimp GUI
Hi, let me add another note just to make sure you don't get us wrong. Of course we appreciate your offer and I think that you could indeed help us. You could for example try to describe and to compare common workflows in GIMP, Photoshop or other image manipulation programs. Such a comparison is however only useful if it can be understood by someone who doesn't know the software involved. Would you be interested in doing this? Perhaps the GIMP Wiki would be a good place for it? Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] gimp GUI
thanks Sven and Carol for your answers... I'll get back to you with more details about the GUI, as i'm working on an art project at the moment, but to answer some immediate queries: - I'm using Photoshop 7.0 - strangely enough, I find it, and all the other tools I use, highly intuitive - the essence of a tool that a graphic designer can use is its intuitiveness, rather than usability. Perhaps in this case we should use graphic designers as testers, alongside bug-testers? - I was using the GIMP supplied by Mandrake 9.2, but I'll download the latest version. - First thing I'd suggest is stacking the Layers / Brushes etc. screens which at present you have to open from the top left hand menu - Photoshop keeps these permanently in appearance, stacked at the right hand corner, although you can double-click on the top of these mini-screens - A Navigation tool for zooming would be essential - again, somewhere in these mini-screens. - This might become a patent problem - but what i'm really suggesting is to keep all the tool option screens in one place, and let the content and menus of the tool options change within this space, rather than having to open a new Options window when you click on the brush tool, for example. Thats one of the areas where Photoshop / Paint Shop Pro users find GIMP most difficult - the choice of tools is obscured, and you can't keep control of all the tools in one place, you have to keep opening and closing menus. - Its pretty hard to find where the effects are, and to know you have to right-click on the image to produce these. But that in itself is elegant, and avoids patent issues... I think the essential problem with Effects is that its difficult to find out a) where they are located in the menu and b) what the heck do they do?... Also many of the effects are outdated or not as accurate as the Photoshop versions. - One thing i /LOVE/ about the GIMP is that you've now implemented layer effects (Multiply, Color Dodge, Color Burn etc.) - but these really need to be in a permanently open menu. The problem is that there are too many screens appearing in random positions - even if the layer menu is the only one open, it could appear aligned on the right hand side, and then when you select the brush tool, the layer menu stays in place, appearing below the layer menu. A navigator screen should be in place always - this is a feature I find essential, and makes it impossible for me to use the GIMP - while i can zoom in and out, its very difficult to drag the screen around to the place where I want to work. As for Illustrator / Fireworks / Dreamweaver / Flash: (my own 'essential' tools) Illustrator is a print design tool, on the level of GIMP. At the moment we have a few imitations but they are too poor to be used for print preparation - there are a lot of features (which I can describe, but it would require a new and very extensive project) especially the ability to create pictures at 300dpi +. This is vitally important when preparing either a GIMP, vector design or print design tool - screen resolution @ 72dpi will produce fuzzy results and embarrassment on the part of the designer when you take it to the printers! ;) Fireworks is a vector design tool. Sodipodi is getting close, or aiming in the same direction, but really is only in the early stages - I find Fireworks essential for designing either print or web material - particularly web material and it exports to png by default. It also has an optimising screen for jpeg/gif (ewww, but essential). Fireworks allows you to slice the image and export the slices to HTML or simply to images - there are a variety of options, which Photoshop uses also, albeit in a rather obscured way. Photoshop tried to implement vector graphics but nobody could make head or tail of them - the only bonus is that you can export to ImageReady and to Illustrator. Flash is an absolute essential - we have no tools at all at present for animation. Flash uses vector graphics as well as being able to import movies, images in any format, and sound. It also allows for javascript to be applied to objects (objects in this case meaning physical objects on the screen - this taught me a lot about programming 'objects' too). Flash also has its own language - 'ActionScript'- which is based on Javascript. Likewise, Quicktime works in a similiar way although I'd never reccomend it because you have to download and make sense of the SDK. Flash is more intuitive. Flash works on timelines - the closest thing I've seen was that application for music/video mixing which was discontinued due to patent problems, and then re-adopted under a different name by Mandrake - the name slips my mind for the moment. Timelines are how we compose layers, putting an object on each timeline and seamlessly moving it about by using 'motion tweening'. Personally speaking, I'm just sad that I can't use Free software for my design
Re: [Gimp-developer] gimp GUI
On Sun, Oct 24, 2004 at 12:12:46PM -0700, miriam clinton (iriXx) wrote: thanks Sven and Carol for your answers... I'll get back to you with more details about the GUI, as i'm working on an art project at the moment, but to answer some immediate queries: - I'm using Photoshop 7.0 - strangely enough, I find it, and all the other tools I use, highly intuitive - the essence of a tool that a graphic designer can use is its intuitiveness, rather than usability. That's you. There are others who find photoshop highly unintuitive, and GIMP much easier to use. Part of the problem is that many designers started out using photoshop, so the intuitiveness is not necessarily inherent in the application, but a mental byproduct of cultivating your nascent workflow using a specific app. This doesn't really validate photoshop's interface as good, but rather what photoshop trained designers are used to. Merely copying photoshop blindly is a bad idea, since photoshop's interface has got its own weird quirks. Nevermind the interface differences between photoshop on Mac and on Windows. So things really should be taken on a case by case basis. In some cases, photoshop may be better at some things, but in others, completely crack filled. Perhaps in this case we should use graphic designers as testers, alongside bug-testers? Do not discount the graphic designers who actually prefer gimp's interface to photoshop's. -Yosh ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] gimp GUI
Hi, miriam clinton (iriXx) [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: - I was using the GIMP supplied by Mandrake 9.2, but I'll download the latest version. IIRC that would be gimp-1.2 then. You'd have to compare that to PS5. Basically you are ignoring the last four years of GIMP development. Please udpate to GIMP 2.0.5 or even consider to try GIMP 2.1.7, the latest development snapshot. We are close to the 2.2 release, so that would give you the best impression on where we are. Though most of the issues you raised have been addressed with GIMP 2.0 already. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] gimp GUI
hi, greetings to all - to introduce myself, i'm a graphic designer from the UK, now living in the US. I was at one stage (see www.copyleftmedia.org.uk) writing a book on copyleft in the arts, and met and interviewed Richard Stallman in connection with my book. As part of our discussions, I raised the issue of why I find the GIMP difficult to use as a graphic designer. Although it is quite a formidable translation of many of the graphics tools, we graphic designers are visual thinkers and rely heavily on the GUI to produce our work. Several of my colleagues have tried GIMP but find it difficult to work with for this reason. Richard then asked me if I would join gimp-devel and assist in the development of the GUI, from the point of view of the designer. I've longed to be able to contribute to GNU/Linux application development, but I thought that I couldnt, as I am not a coder. He encouraged me that GUI designers are also needed, and encouraged me to join your group. I have some experience in designing pngs and graphics for GNU/Linux music applications, as I am also a musician and a member of linux-audio-dev and linux-audio-user - the same discussion arose on those lists, also for another important reason - if we are to convert people to using GNU/Linux, the GUIs need to be as attractive as those in Winblows or Mac OS. I'm sorry if this message treads on many toes. But from the point of view of a designer - GIMP is designed by programmers, and therefore thinks in the manner of a programmer - the tools are difficult to use for graphic designers who are visual-thinkers. The menu is obscure, and it takes a great deal of mastery to create the same effects that we could do quickly and simply in Photoshop (err, some of the effects are rather dated too - but then again, some of the effects in Photoshop are similiarly outdated). I'm well aware of the problems which we face in regard to patents - I've also closely followed the Adobe vs. Macromedia lawsuits. But I would very much like to comment from an artist's point of view on any improvements that I could suggest that might make GIMP more attractive to designers (and preferably, more attractive than photoshop). I'm also interested to know if there is a port of an Adobe Illustrator-like application planned for the future. We need a good set of graphics tools, especially vector design and web design GUI-based tools such as the Macromedia suite to attract graphic designers - likewise there exists already an attractive and varied set of music applications which draw Winblows/Mac users to GNU/Linux. The desktop environments are extremely attractive - now we need to make the applications equally attractive, as many are frustrated by difficult-to-use applications, simply because of the GUI. Again, apologies if this treads on toes - you're free to tell me to go shove it - but I'd very much like to comment and contribute as an artist and graphic designer. Yours, Miriam. -- 99% of aliens prefer Earth --Eminem www.iriXx.org www.copyleftmedia.org.uk ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
