[Gimp-developer] introduction
Dear GIMP development team, on your news section, I found the post offering two interns for working on GIMP's usability. So I applied at m+mi / Peter Sikking, and was invited for a meeting in Berlin. He kindly offered me the opportunity to work for GIMP, which I will gladly take. My contribution to GIMP will include research to better understand users and their needs, especially the way they handle tools and tasks with GIMP in their context. Technically, I'm not an intern at m+mi, I'm living in Erfurt, Germany and working at Technical University of Ilmenau. About myself: I've got a Diploma in Applied Mediascience of University of Technology Ilmenau. I began involving in usability during my studies. Professional experience is 2+ years, including work at a usability agency as well as projects carried out as a self-employed usability consultant. My work ranges from preparing and conducting usability studies, such as tests and reviews to analysing data and communicating results. I'm motivated by the prospect of improving the ways work is done or art is created for GIMP users (according to the product vision). I'm looking forward to learning about Open Source development and the corresponding usability challenges. In terms of professional development, I'd like to refine and extend my set of research methods and enhance my portfolio. Kind regards Tobias Ehni ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] introduction
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Tobias Ehni tobias.e...@googlemail.com wrote: Dear GIMP development team, on your news section, I found the post offering two interns for working on GIMP's usability. So I applied at m+mi / Peter Sikking, and was invited for a meeting in Berlin. He kindly offered me the opportunity to work for GIMP, which I will gladly take. Hi Tobias :) Welcome aboard. All our fun happens at the gimpnet #gimp IRC channel, so drop in and have a chat with us :) Working with a bunch of open source hackers presents some unique challenges, as I hope Peter told you. Its most similar to herding cats ;) -- --Alexia ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Introduction / Color layer modes
Rupert, that's wonderful news on a Sunday morning! Thank you so much for your effort. I'm not so good at understanding patches and things... If this is accepted, would it mean it would be available natively, without GEGL projection? Since LAB uses a perception-based definition of lightness, this would effectively solve the Color mode problem, the two being two sides of the same coin. What this means is that it makes a fix for our present predicament easier to release: as a completely new mode, the LAB Lightness would avoid the compatibility issue that a fixed Color mode would present. Why didn't I think of this during the discussion? So I would urge all concerned to initially focus on this new mode, and please consider an early release. Thanks again, Charlie - Original Message From: Rupert Weber g...@leguanease.org To: gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU Sent: Sun, August 8, 2010 5:12:03 AM Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] Introduction / Color layer modes Just uploaded a revised layer mode patch to http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=325564 Good news: - is about as fast as the legacy modes - adds Lab Burn mode The Lightness mode is really cool, because it effectively gives you Lab contrast/brightness control: - duplicate your layer (or make new from visible) - set top layer to 'Lightness (Lab)' - Use normal Curves, Levels, or whatever you prefer. next thing I'll do is rework the integer math routines, so they don't require intermediate 64bit ints -- and run faster. Cheers Rupert ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Introduction / Color layer modes
On 08/08/2010 09:22 AM, Charlie De wrote: I'm not so good at understanding patches and things... If this is accepted, would it mean it would be available natively, without GEGL projection? Yes, it's completely independent from GEGL. Since LAB uses a perception-based definition of lightness, this would effectively solve the Color mode problem, the two being two sides of the same coin. What this means is that it makes a fix for our present predicament easier to release: as a completely new mode, the LAB Lightness would avoid the compatibility issue that a fixed Color mode would present. Why didn't I think of this during the discussion? So I would urge all concerned to initially focus on this new mode, and please consider an early release. While the Color and Lightness/Value modes are the reverse of each other and can thus theoretically replace each other by swapping layers, I don't see the Lightness mode being released any sooner than the new Color mode. It's both of them or none. I'd really love to see this (well, once it's done, of course) go into 2.8. Rupert ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Introduction / Color layer modes
Just uploaded a revised layer mode patch to http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=325564 Good news: - is about as fast as the legacy modes - adds Lab Burn mode The Lightness mode is really cool, because it effectively gives you Lab contrast/brightness control: - duplicate your layer (or make new from visible) - set top layer to 'Lightness (Lab)' - Use normal Curves, Levels, or whatever you prefer. next thing I'll do is rework the integer math routines, so they don't require intermediate 64bit ints -- and run faster. Cheers Rupert ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Introduction / Color layer modes
From: Martin Nordholts ense...@gmail.com : Since this is the second time you mention this, I feel I have to step in and say that I think it is a really bad idea. We want to improve the usability of GIMP, and forcing users to use a configure flag to make GIMP work like they want is not a step forward. This is a feature addition, and thus won't be added to GIMP 2.6. But as long as someone is working on the patch, it is very likely that this will end up in GIMP 2.8. And users will not have to use configure flags and compile GIMP themselves to make use of the new feature. Martin, an important fix isn't a feature addition, and early provision of the fix by whatever means doesn't amount to forcing. But I'm repeating myself as you've noted, so thanks to all for your valuable work and good luck with coding for 2.8. A new approach is needed, I'll see what I can do. Best, Charlie ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Introduction / Color layer modes
Hello there, recently I got sucked somehow into supplying a small patch for GIMP (all I ever meant to do was to report a bug...). -- and thank you to Sven, who remained very friendly and patient, despite me getting it all wrong the first cpuple attempts. So now that I licked blood I wanted to get involved a bit more. I took the Color layer mode issue as a good way to get to know the code a bit. I posted a first patch with new layer modes to http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=325564 That patch is nowhere ready for inclusion, but good enough to take a look at. [ I had already written quite a bit about the patch to this list from a different (GMX) account, but it seems it didn't get through. -- So before reposting that again, I'll first see if this comes through...] Cheers, Rupert ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Introduction / Color layer modes
[ Ok, so I'm daring to repost my previuos mail again, which obviosly didn't make it...] I wrote a patch that might help fix the situation. First, I don't consider the current Color layer mode as broken. It is just different from what many users will expect. What I do consider broken, though, is that currently using GEGL delivers completely different results from 'classic' mode. The current Color mode uses HSL, the hue/saturation/value modes use HSV. GEGL uses LCH for all those modes. That means if you open an XCF file, it is not clear how to render it, as you don't know if they were created with GEGL view or not. (Which is why I would not consider http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=325564 FIXED, rather it went from somewhat unexpected behaviour to broken) The patch introduces four new layer layer modes for Color/Hue/Saturation/Lightness, all using LCH/Lab space. (The result is slighly different from current GEGL though, I don't know why, yet.) About how to store in XCF: The obviuos choice seems to be to bump up the version to 3, which is what the patch currently does if one of the new modes is used. That might not be good, though: - Older versions will simply refuse to open the file. - With e.g. 2.6.8, you can still open a file with the new modes, it's just that the display will be a mess until you've set valid layer modes. While this won't allow you to render the image correctly, you can still *access* it, which might be valuable. I attached the patch to the abovementioned bugreport. I'd be glad to hear what you think, Cheers Rupert ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Introduction / Color layer modes
On Tue, 2010-08-03 at 18:46 +0200, Rupert Weber wrote: About how to store in XCF: The obviuos choice seems to be to bump up the version to 3, which is what the patch currently does if one of the new modes is used. That might not be good, though: - Older versions will simply refuse to open the file. - With e.g. 2.6.8, you can still open a file with the new modes, it's just that the display will be a mess until you've set valid layer modes. While this won't allow you to render the image correctly, you can still *access* it, which might be valuable. Without having looked at the patch (yet), I think that bumping the version in case that the new modes are being used is the right thing to do. Sure you can do something with the file in an old version, but the behavior is undefined and unexpected and it would IMO be better to require that the user uses a version that is new enough to handle the new modes. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Introduction / Color layer modes
From: Rupert Weber g...@leguanease.org I wrote a patch that might help fix the situation. Thanks so much for working on this! I'm one of the people who'd greatly appreciate the fix. In fact, your effort is more than I dared hope for, I was resigned to the idea that the GEGL route was the only option right now. My main concern regarding compatibility is that it doesn't cause a delay in the release of the update. For that reason I've previously proposed what to me seems to be the cheapest solution - offer the fix as a compile option in an incremental bug release in the stable branch. Those who want a better compatibility solution can then work on it for the next release. Thanks again and good luck with continued coding. :-) Charlie ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Introduction / Color layer modes
On Tuesday, August 03, 2010 23:04:09 Charlie De wrote: From: Rupert Weber g...@leguanease.org I wrote a patch that might help fix the situation. Thanks so much for working on this! I'm one of the people who'd greatly appreciate the fix. In fact, your effort is more than I dared hope for, I was resigned to the idea that the GEGL route was the only option right now. It is the gegl route + some backwards compatibility for the old engine making it suitable for 2.8. My main concern regarding compatibility is that it doesn't cause a delay in the release of the update. You are really lucky if this gets in 2.8. I think theres no chance this will be back-ported/applied to 2.6 series. --Alexia ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Introduction / Color layer modes
On 08/03/2010 10:04 PM, Charlie De wrote: For that reason I've previously proposed what to me seems to be the cheapest solution - offer the fix as a compile option in an incremental bug release in the stable branch. Hi, Since this is the second time you mention this, I feel I have to step in and say that I think it is a really bad idea. We want to improve the usability of GIMP, and forcing users to use a configure flag to make GIMP work like they want is not a step forward. This is a feature addition, and thus won't be added to GIMP 2.6. But as long as someone is working on the patch, it is very likely that this will end up in GIMP 2.8. And users will not have to use configure flags and compile GIMP themselves to make use of the new feature. It should be pretty easy for whoever is interested to backport the patch to GIMP 2.6 of course, but it won't go upstream. Regards, Martin -- My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/ Automatic tab style and removed tab title bar ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Introduction / Color layer modes
On 08/03/2010 10:04 PM, Charlie De wrote: [...] For that reason I've previously proposed what to me seems to be the cheapest solution - offer the fix as a compile option in an incremental bug release in the stable branch. But if someone compiles from source anyway, it's probably easier to just apply the patch (well maybe not this one, but once it's halfway done). Martin made a remark on bugzilla: Don't change the name of the legacy enums, that just complicates the patch. While I'd spontaneously agree with that, I am only now starting to realize what a bad decision it was, along with reordering them which is much worse still: I hadn't considered plug-ins at all. 'neutralizing' the enums for XCF is pretty pointless if all existing plug-ins break. Of course we could do it for plug-ins, as well, but then it should be *all* enums... ouch. So it's back to original order and naming for the legacy enums. But I'm still torn on XCF. I'd really dislike going back to writing enums to files -- but objectively, there isn't much of a point to keep it up. Rupert ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Introduction Questions about GSoC2009 Idea: Plugin for image segmentation
Hey guys, I have been waiting for GSoC to begin in order to present a more concrete proposal. So, I have discussed my idea with João S. Bueno and he agreed to being my mentor for GSoC. We live nearby and have the same Alma Mater (UNICAMP), so it was easy to get in touch. Basically, I have proposed to first merge the soc-2009-siox-drb branch with the main branch and then implement my algorithm as another backend for the foreground selection tool. For the first part, it would be nice if I could get some advice from Gerald if possible. In my proposal I have stated everything that I told you guys on this thread, so there are not many surprises. Also, João and I did some brainstorming and came up with a few ideas which are not described on the attached file, but that I'll try to implement if there's time. Best regards, Thiago -- Thiago Vallin Spina MSc student Laboratory of Visual Informatics Institute of Computing -- Unicamp www.liv.ic.unicamp.br Merging of the detail refinement brush branch and implementation of an IFT-based segmentation tool = Abstract = This proposal aims at first merging the code from the detail refinement brush, of the foreground selection tool, with the main development branch. Then, an algorithm of hard and soft object segmentation based on the Image Foresting Transform will be implemented as an alternative to the current SIOX-based method of extraction. = Background = I was born and raised in Brazil, and I got a Computer Science Bachelor's degree at the University of Campinas (UNICAMP - from Brazil, we have a great history of participations on GSoC). Currently, I have just been admitted to the Computer Science MSc program at UNICAMP, but I've been researching image processing algorithms (mostly related to foreground segmentation on images and videos) for the past 2 years. Before that I worked with robotics, so I have experience on: * Building C/C++ modules applied to indoor navigation of robots for about 2 years as a Research Scholarship Holder -- This project was also applied to the mix of robotics and entertainment, and involved a lot of C/Shell Script hacking and kernel adaptation (also some Java coding). * Developing image and video segmentation algorithms [1,2,3] using the Image Foresting Transform (created by my advisor prof. Alexandre X. Falcão [4]) mostly in C/C++ (some Python) -- Also as a Research Scholarship Holder. In that project I have also gained a lot of experience on code optimization using mostly gcc vector extensions for SIMD. * Dealing with libraries such as wxWidgets (Gtk) to implement the GUI of a software used in my image processing research. = Motivation = Foreground segmentation is an important part of image processing and has been a crucial topic of research for the past decades, but it is still an open problem. The foreground selection tool implemented on GIMP is based on the Simple Interactive Object Extraction (SIOX) algorithm. On the last year's Google Summer of Code, that tool was improved to do some detail refinement on the hard segmentation. That improvement was implemented on a separate git branch named soc-2009-siox-drb, and now there is the need to merge it with the main development branch for the next release of GIMP. Thus, one of the goals of this proposal is to merge those branches. Although SIOX does a great job when segmenting the desired foreground, specially on noisy images, it presents some limitations related to color similarity between foreground and background. In such cases it may take a lot of user interaction to obtain a satisfactory segmentation result. The main goal of my current research is to make user interaction more effective and simple for both hard and soft image/video segmentation. In that spirit, the Image Foresting Transform is a great graph-based alternative to algorithms using the graph cut technique (such as GrabCut [5]), and it was proven to provide better results [6]. IFT is a generalization of the Dijkstra's algorithm, which works quite fast and has served for many purposes in image processing, image analysis, and pattern recognition. The IFT-based framework for hard image segmentation that I have been developing is able to deal with the shortcomings of SIOX, as I have demonstrated on this video: http://vimeo.com/9803589. Thus, the second goal of this proposal is to implement my framework as an alternative to SIOX. Finally, I have talked to João S. Bueno about this proposal, because it is not on the GIMP's ideas list, and he has agreed to being my mentor. Also, he studied at UNICAMP and lives nearby, so communication will be easier. = Implementation and GUI = First, the implementation of the detail refinement brush, developed for the 2009 Google Summer of Code, is going to be merged with GIMP's main development branch. Then, given that the current code for the foreground selection tool is prepared for multiple algorithms, the choice between SIOX and IFT will be
Re: [Gimp-developer] Introduction Questions about GSoC2009 Idea: Plugin for image segmentation
On 2 March 2010 04:56, Sven Neumann s...@gimp.org wrote: The current code is prepared for multiple algorithms as backend for the segmentation tool. It's not foreseen that you switch between algorithms, but that you pick one, but even that could probably be changed. As there is currently only the SIOX backend, there's no choice of algorithm exposed in the user interface. But it wouldn't be too difficult to add a toggle or combo-box for that. The question is how much does the user interaction depend on the chosen algorithm? My algorithm is quite flexible about that. For instance, the lasso + markers used for SIOX could be the form of interaction chosen for IFT (I would only need to select a set of foreground and background pixels as initial markers), although I think that showing the pre-segmentation and selecting markers is helpful and more simple. Then, maybe both algorithms could run in parallel and the results would be somehow merged. For most cases (highly textured images, similar foreground and background, variation in illumination, multiple objects, etc.) our algorithm works fine. However, to solve the transparency issue I am doing some experiments on a solution which is similar to SIOX. We currently use a pattern classifier to fuzzy classify all the pixels in order to estimate the arc-weights of the IFT graph. Thus, we form a fuzzy map with values between 0 and 1. This map can be straightforwardly used as an alpha channel, but I'm working on a piece of code which will allow the user to select, after the hard segmentation, markers where the fuzzy map values should be considered. Also, those markers would be used to refine the local fuzzy classification in order to obtain better values, because our current fuzzy classification considers global information (the foreground and background markers on the first iteration). In a nutshell, first the user would do the binary segmentation and then s/he would select where soft values should be computed. Therefore, what I mean is that there will be a nice solution for the transparency problem soon. Thiago -- Thiago Vallin Spina MSc student Laboratory of Visual Informatics Institute of Computing -- Unicamp www.liv.ic.unicamp.br ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Introduction Questions about GSoC2009 Idea: Plugin for image segmentation
Hi Thiago, I agree that we should first merge the GSOC code from this year before we start thinking of a new segmenter. Let me know if you need any help. However, I think both a graph-cut-based segmenter and SIOX could have a place in GIMP side-by-side. Graphcut-based segmenters and SIOX have different complementary properties. It is going to be a GUI challenge though because it requires expert knowledge to know when to use which. I do believe that using both algorithms could be a nice solution. In fact, it was my original proposal and I am willing to try to merge both methods. Except the main issue is that it would require expert knowledge to know which one to use. I think the challenge is to provide the user with a nice way of switching between the two. This will become even more complicated once the detail refinement brush is implemented in the main branch to deal with border inaccuracies. Thiago: I can give you a couple of pictures that you should try with your segmenter and then compare against SIOX... especially those with a lot of texture and semi-transparent layers. The new version of SIOX can cope with them very well. Graph-based segmentation algorithms can't because they look for a minimum cut, which is a problem because especially those highly complicated pictures require a lot of time to do manually. I would be very glad if you could provide me some of these examples, because it would really help me with my research. Also, I would like to state that our approach is *not* based on the min-cut/max-flow algorithm, so it does not suffer with many of its drawbacks. Right now my current job is to deal with soft segmentation in an attempt to cope with the transparency issue, and we already have some good solutions. First: Try any image that works well and add 80% noise. SIOX is pretty good with noise. Last time I tried Grabcut with such an image, I got a segmentation fault... Then: Try images like this one: http://www.bigfoto.com/themes/nature/winter/tree-winter-village.jpg and try to extract the tree. The current GIMP version in the main branch cannot do it, the version from last Google Summer of Code can do it. Graph-based algorithms usually have problems but I think this is an important feature because it saves HOURS of work to be able to do it semi-automatically! Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Friedland International Computer Science Institute 1947 Center Street, Suite 600 CA-94704 Berkeley, USA http://www.gerald-friedland.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Introduction Questions about GSoC2009 Idea: Plugin for image segmentation
Hi all, I agree that we should first merge the GSOC code from this year before we start thinking of a new segmenter. Let me know if you need any help. However, I think both a graph-cut-based segmenter and SIOX could have a place in GIMP side-by-side. Graphcut-based segmenters and SIOX have different complementary properties. It is going to be a GUI challenge though because it requires expert knowledge to know when to use which. Thiago: I can give you a couple of pictures that you should try with your segmenter and then compare against SIOX... especially those with a lot of texture and semi-transparent layers. The new version of SIOX can cope with them very well. Graph-based segmentation algorithms can't because they look for a minimum cut, which is a problem because especially those highly complicated pictures require a lot of time to do manually. Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Friedland International Computer Science Institute 1947 Center Street, Suite 600 CA-94704 Berkeley, USA http://www.gerald-friedland.org -- On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Thiago Spina thiago.sp...@gmail.com wrote: Hey guys, sorry about the delay. It's been a bit of a busy week. On 21 February 2010 14:05, Sven Neumann s...@gimp.org wrote: Did you compare against SIOX as in the master branch or against the improved version that resulted from last year's GSoC ? It would also be interesting if you could benchmark your algorithm using the benchmark proposed in GrabCut: interactive foreground extraction using iterated graph cuts published in the Proceedings of the 2004 SIGGRAPH Conference. There's a Python script shipped with the GIMP source code that does this with the SIOX tool. I compared against both branches and the results were about the same. Regarding the benchmark, on the papers that I mentioned in my first email [1,2] we used the whole GrabCut segmentation dataset considering the F-measure over the groundtruths (because our approach does not use trimaps). The accuracy result was of over 98% on every paper. In fact, on another work [3] seven users segmented a subset with 20 images from the GrabCut dataset, using different pattern classifiers for one stage of our framework, and the results were still above 97.7%. Also, we used the average number of drawn markers as an indication of user interaction, and part of our current approach (described in [2]) required about 5 markers in average (foreground + background). We are currently working on a paper to detail our final framework, because what was proposed on [2] was further improved to make user interaction even more effective and simple, while maintaining the segmentation quality. I made a video comparing what I am going to implement for GIMP (currently on our research software) and the soc-2009-siox-drb branch, which can be seen here: http://vimeo.com/9803589. In my comparison, I used two images from the GrabCut dataset and one from the Berkeley dataset [4] that present increasing degree of difficulty. I believe that the foreground selection tool requires a lot more user interaction for most common images, because it usually does not handle well cases where foreground and background have similar texture/color (as pointed out on the SIOX paper). In my opinion we should at this point concentrate on merging last year's work on the SIOX tool. If we start to add other segmentation methods before this work is merged, then it will become very difficult to ever get the soc-2009-siox-drb branch merged. I agree that it should be a concern to merge that branch, but I think my framework could be released as a minor version in the future. So, it would be nice to have GSoC support for that. [1] - http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1700473 [2] - http://www.springerlink.com/content/7415482725175nm7/ [3] - Spina, T. V.; Montoya-Zegarra, J. A.; Andrijauskas, F.; Faria, F. A.; Zampieri, C. E. A.; Pinto-Cáceres, S. M.; Carvalho, T. J. and Falcão, A. X. A comparative study among pattern classifiers in interactive image segmentation. Brazilian Symposium on Computer Graphics and Image Processing, 22 (SIBGRAPI), Oct 2009, IEEE. To appear in IEEE Xplore. [4] - http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Research/Projects/CS/vision/bsds/ -- Thiago Vallin Spina MSc student Laboratory of Visual Informatics Institute of Computing -- Unicamp www.liv.ic.unicamp.br ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Introduction Questions about GSoC2009 Idea: Plugin for image segmentation
Hello, Gerald. On 1 March 2010 19:57, Gerald Friedland frac...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, I agree that we should first merge the GSOC code from this year before we start thinking of a new segmenter. Let me know if you need any help. However, I think both a graph-cut-based segmenter and SIOX could have a place in GIMP side-by-side. Graphcut-based segmenters and SIOX have different complementary properties. It is going to be a GUI challenge though because it requires expert knowledge to know when to use which. I do believe that using both algorithms could be a nice solution. In fact, it was my original proposal and I am willing to try to merge both methods. Thiago: I can give you a couple of pictures that you should try with your segmenter and then compare against SIOX... especially those with a lot of texture and semi-transparent layers. The new version of SIOX can cope with them very well. Graph-based segmentation algorithms can't because they look for a minimum cut, which is a problem because especially those highly complicated pictures require a lot of time to do manually. I would be very glad if you could provide me some of these examples, because it would really help me with my research. Also, I would like to state that our approach is *not* based on the min-cut/max-flow algorithm, so it does not suffer with many of its drawbacks. Right now my current job is to deal with soft segmentation in an attempt to cope with the transparency issue, and we already have some good solutions. Thiago -- Thiago Vallin Spina MSc student Laboratory of Visual Informatics Institute of Computing -- Unicamp www.liv.ic.unicamp.br ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Introduction Questions about GSoC2009 Idea: Plugin for image segmentation
On 03/01/2010 11:57 PM, Gerald Friedland wrote: Hi all, I agree that we should first merge the GSOC code from this year before we start thinking of a new segmenter. Let me know if you need any help. IMHO this is work you as a mentor should have done a long time ago. Best regards, Martin ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Introduction Questions about GSoC2009 Idea: Plugin for image segmentation
On Mon, 2010-03-01 at 20:32 -0300, Thiago Spina wrote: Hello, Gerald. On 1 March 2010 19:57, Gerald Friedland frac...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, I agree that we should first merge the GSOC code from this year before we start thinking of a new segmenter. Let me know if you need any help. However, I think both a graph-cut-based segmenter and SIOX could have a place in GIMP side-by-side. Graphcut-based segmenters and SIOX have different complementary properties. It is going to be a GUI challenge though because it requires expert knowledge to know when to use which. I do believe that using both algorithms could be a nice solution. In fact, it was my original proposal and I am willing to try to merge both methods. The current code is prepared for multiple algorithms as backend for the segmentation tool. It's not foreseen that you switch between algorithms, but that you pick one, but even that could probably be changed. As there is currently only the SIOX backend, there's no choice of algorithm exposed in the user interface. But it wouldn't be too difficult to add a toggle or combo-box for that. The question is how much does the user interaction depend on the chosen algorithm? Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Introduction Questions about GSoC2009 Idea: Plugin for image segmentation
Hey guys, sorry about the delay. It's been a bit of a busy week. On 21 February 2010 14:05, Sven Neumann s...@gimp.org wrote: Did you compare against SIOX as in the master branch or against the improved version that resulted from last year's GSoC ? It would also be interesting if you could benchmark your algorithm using the benchmark proposed in GrabCut: interactive foreground extraction using iterated graph cuts published in the Proceedings of the 2004 SIGGRAPH Conference. There's a Python script shipped with the GIMP source code that does this with the SIOX tool. I compared against both branches and the results were about the same. Regarding the benchmark, on the papers that I mentioned in my first email [1,2] we used the whole GrabCut segmentation dataset considering the F-measure over the groundtruths (because our approach does not use trimaps). The accuracy result was of over 98% on every paper. In fact, on another work [3] seven users segmented a subset with 20 images from the GrabCut dataset, using different pattern classifiers for one stage of our framework, and the results were still above 97.7%. Also, we used the average number of drawn markers as an indication of user interaction, and part of our current approach (described in [2]) required about 5 markers in average (foreground + background). We are currently working on a paper to detail our final framework, because what was proposed on [2] was further improved to make user interaction even more effective and simple, while maintaining the segmentation quality. I made a video comparing what I am going to implement for GIMP (currently on our research software) and the soc-2009-siox-drb branch, which can be seen here: http://vimeo.com/9803589. In my comparison, I used two images from the GrabCut dataset and one from the Berkeley dataset [4] that present increasing degree of difficulty. I believe that the foreground selection tool requires a lot more user interaction for most common images, because it usually does not handle well cases where foreground and background have similar texture/color (as pointed out on the SIOX paper). In my opinion we should at this point concentrate on merging last year's work on the SIOX tool. If we start to add other segmentation methods before this work is merged, then it will become very difficult to ever get the soc-2009-siox-drb branch merged. I agree that it should be a concern to merge that branch, but I think my framework could be released as a minor version in the future. So, it would be nice to have GSoC support for that. [1] - http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1700473 [2] - http://www.springerlink.com/content/7415482725175nm7/ [3] - Spina, T. V.; Montoya-Zegarra, J. A.; Andrijauskas, F.; Faria, F. A.; Zampieri, C. E. A.; Pinto-Cáceres, S. M.; Carvalho, T. J. and Falcão, A. X. A comparative study among pattern classifiers in interactive image segmentation. Brazilian Symposium on Computer Graphics and Image Processing, 22 (SIBGRAPI), Oct 2009, IEEE. To appear in IEEE Xplore. [4] - http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Research/Projects/CS/vision/bsds/ -- Thiago Vallin Spina MSc student Laboratory of Visual Informatics Institute of Computing -- Unicamp www.liv.ic.unicamp.br ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Introduction Questions about GSoC2009 Idea: Plugin for image segmentation
On Sun, 2010-02-21 at 00:29 -0200, Thiago Spina wrote: On 19 February 2010 05:20, Martin Nordholts ense...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think we should have two tools for this, rather one tool that does a great job Afaik GSoC is supposed to be a full-time undertaking, if you spend 30 ours each week on other stuff it can be hard to be productive. If you think you can solve the task at hand despite this however, it will not be a problem in practice. I intend to write the plugin as part of my MSc thesis, even if it is not chosen as a GSoC project. In fact, I talked to my advisor and he got very excited about the idea, so I believe that my initial estimate of 25~30h could drop to 10~15h (probably even less during GSoC). Regarding the quality of our approach, I have made a quick comparison and it outperformed GIMP's tool based on SIOX for quite a few images (required less user interaction for correction and produced equal or better results for different types of images). Did you compare against SIOX as in the master branch or against the improved version that resulted from last year's GSoC ? It would also be interesting if you could benchmark your algorithm using the benchmark proposed in GrabCut: interactive foreground extraction using iterated graph cuts published in the Proceedings of the 2004 SIGGRAPH Conference. There's a Python script shipped with the GIMP source code that does this with the SIOX tool. In my opinion we should at this point concentrate on merging last year's work on the SIOX tool. If we start to add other segmentation methods before this work is merged, then it will become very difficult to ever get the soc-2009-siox-drb branch merged. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Introduction Questions about GSoC2009 Idea: Plugin for image segmentation
On 19 February 2010 05:20, Martin Nordholts ense...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think we should have two tools for this, rather one tool that does a great job Afaik GSoC is supposed to be a full-time undertaking, if you spend 30 ours each week on other stuff it can be hard to be productive. If you think you can solve the task at hand despite this however, it will not be a problem in practice. I intend to write the plugin as part of my MSc thesis, even if it is not chosen as a GSoC project. In fact, I talked to my advisor and he got very excited about the idea, so I believe that my initial estimate of 25~30h could drop to 10~15h (probably even less during GSoC). Regarding the quality of our approach, I have made a quick comparison and it outperformed GIMP's tool based on SIOX for quite a few images (required less user interaction for correction and produced equal or better results for different types of images). So, if our method indeed proves to be a good alternative and be accepted by the GIMP community, I would be more than happy to implement it as an integral part of GIMP, even if it means doing it for GSoC. Our segmentation framework and the plugin idea work as follows: 1) When the plugin is loaded the image is automatically pre-segmented and the result is shown to the user. 2) The user would then draw object markers selecting the regions which compose the object, and inserting background markers when a region contains both object and background pixels (those regions will be split independently as near the object's border as possible). 3) Then, our approach uses the markers to improve the automatic pre-segmentation (by learning the color distribution and texture of the object), to select the regions that compose the object, and to divide the regions that need to be divided. 4) Finally, the user may add/remove object and background markers to finalize the segmentation by selecting/splitting the regions. This step does not need to learn the object's properties. * Optional * 5) I am currently working to improve a tool for soft segmentation which is applied automatically to the border of the segmentation mask, and which may be interactively used on fine features such as hair. There are only three parameters that may be changed by the user: 1) The number of regions which should be pre-segmented (usually a slider to select between less and more regions) 2) The percentage of the object's information that should be used (we actually combine information learned from the object markers with color and texture information from the image to achieve better results). 3) Marker size and type (object/background). Certain aspects of the framework may be changed or simplified to make it even more user-friendly, such as the automatic pre-segmentation step and the combination percentage parameter (50% usually yields good results). * Note: I can demonstrate our method if necessary * I'd rather prefer that you used the GCC vector extensions: http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Vector-Extensions.html Actually, that is what I currently use so there will be no problem. -- Thiago Vallin Spina MSc student Laboratory of Visual Informatics Institute of Computing -- Unicamp www.liv.ic.unicamp.br ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Introduction Questions about GSoC2009 Idea: Plugin for image segmentation
On 02/17/2010 04:50 AM, Thiago Spina wrote: = Questions = I know there is already a segmentation tool in GIMP, but I feel it could co-exist with this plugin. I don't think we should have two tools for this, rather one tool that does a great job * I like to use SSE intrinsics to optimize some of my code, is it ok if I use it for the plugin? I'd rather prefer that you used the GCC vector extensions: http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Vector-Extensions.html * I do plan to keep working on my research during the GSoC period, which takes me around 25~30 hours each week. Will this be a problem? Afaik GSoC is supposed to be a full-time undertaking, if you spend 30 ours each week on other stuff it can be hard to be productive. If you think you can solve the task at hand despite this however, it will not be a problem in practice. / Martin ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Introduction Questions about GSoC2009 Idea: Plugin for image segmentation
Hello guys, I'm thinnking about applying as a student to implement an image segmentation plugin using the technique known as the Image Foresting Transform (IFT) [4], but before that I'd like to introduce myself and ask a couple of questions to make sure our interests match. So here goes: = Introduction = I'm a Computer Science MSc student at UNICAMP (from Brazil, we've a great history of participations on GSoC), and I have been working with Linux for about 4 years. I've just been admitted to the graduate program but I've been researching image processing algorithms (mostly related to object segmentation on images and videos) for the past 2 years. Before that I have worked with robotics, so I have experience on: * Building C/C++ modules applied to indoor navigation of robots for about 2 years as a Research Scholarship Holder -- This project was also applied to the mix of robotics and entertainment, and involved a lot of C/Shell Script hacking and kernel adaptation (also some Java coding). * Developing image and video segmentation algorithms [1,2,3] using the Image Foresting Transform (created by my advisor prof. Alexandre X. Falcão [4]) mostly in C/C++ (some Python) -- Also as a Research Scholarship Holder. * Dealing with libraries such as wxWidgets (Gtk) to implement the GUI of a software used in my image processing research. I am currently doing some code scrubbing on that sw to make it available on the Internet (open source, of course =D). In fact, the last item is where I got the inspiration to develop the GIMP plugin in the first place. IFT is a great alternative to algorithms based on the graph cut technique, and it was proven to provide better results [5]. It is a generalization of the Dijkstra's algorithm, which works quite fast and has served for many purposes in the image processing domain (e.g. image segmentation, CBIR, and morphology). Furthermore, in my research we have been working really hard to make user interaction more effective, faster, and the least as possible. That's it for my technical profile. As for my personal info, I'm not sure what to write about, so feel free to ask me any questions. = Questions = I know there is already a segmentation tool in GIMP, but I feel it could co-exist with this plugin. So, here are my questions: * I like to use SSE intrinsics to optimize some of my code, is it ok if I use it for the plugin? * I do plan to keep working on my research during the GSoC period, which takes me around 25~30 hours each week. Will this be a problem? That's it guys. Sorry for the long e-mail. Hope to hear from you. Best regards, [1] - http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1700473 [2] - http://www.springerlink.com/content/7415482725175nm7/ [3] - R. Minetto, J. P. Papa, T. V. Spina, A. X. Falcão, N. J. Leite, and J. Stolfi. Fast and robust object tracking using iimage foresting transform. In 16th International Workshop on Systems, Signals and Image Processing, Chalkida, Greece, Jun 2009. IEEE. [4] - http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~afalcao/downloads.html [5] - http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1574529 (Please let me apologize about referencing our papers, but our software is not yet available. If anyone is interested in reading them please contact me.) -- Thiago Vallin Spina MSc Student Laboratory of Visual Informatics Institute of Computing -- Unicamp www.liv.ic.unicamp.br/ http://www.liv.ic.unicamp.br/~tvspina ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Introduction Questions about GSoC2009 Idea: Plugin for image segmentation
Hey Guys, Sorry about the mistake on the subject, I meant GSoC2010 not 2009. I keep forgetting it's a new year =). Best regards, -- Thiago Vallin Spina MSc student Laboratory of Visual Informatics Institute of Computing -- Unicamp www.liv.ic.unicamp.br ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] introduction + localisation questions
Hi there, I am new to this list. I am going to work on an extended and hopefully also improved version of the Dutch translation of the Gimp. At the moment I am a professional HTML coder, who tries to write articles for computer magazines on the side (until last year I was editor of the Dutch version of the famous c't magazine). If you want to know more about me, check out my horribly out-dated home page at http://www.xs4all.nl/~collin/. I have got a couple of questions for this list: 1. Is there a way to search the archive without downloading all? (I am using a slow modem connection to log on.) 2. Do you use language tags as described in RFC 3066 to identify the localisation files? (Hm, why am I suddenly thinking of The Gimp in Klingon?) 3. If the answer to question 2 is 'yes', then: does any of you know what the official country code for the Netherlands is? My guess would be 'NL', but I would like to be sure. 4. Where could I have found the answer to question 2? Many thanks in advance for your help. I look forward to a good cooperation. Kind regards, -- branko collin [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
