Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8
On Sunday, August 01, 2010 11:45:19 Matjaz L. wrote: I contacted David Revoy and got a reply. He explained he doesn't feel GIMP 2.7 is stable enough for regular production work, which would allow him to develop a good default brush set through actual work. ...snip It's a sort of a chickenegg who-came-first problem. Stable GIMP - develop stable brush set - release stable GIMP. I agree with him. Exact dynamics/brush set development is best left after we have the first RC out of the door. But baseline setting can start now. Adding basic simple things that are likely to be keepers and removing stuff we arent going to keep for sure. --Alexia ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8
I don't know PS after CS3, I heard it had horrible performance, by the way :) After all, I did not try to imply that the brush engine is being neglected and I needed to tell you to work on it, of course not. Just statet what I think is necessary, if that's already being approached, simply take it as an confirmation for your efforts. On 07/19/2010 10:46 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On 7/19/10, Cedric Sodhi wrote: If there is something to work on in, especially the brushes section then it is improving the brush engine to give greater GENERIC flexibility The brush engine is already actively being worked on. You probably missed all v2.6-v2.7 reviews. Go read them, or, better, try 2.7.1. - take a commecrical brush engine as an example - I only know the PS one and I think that's what's needed. Let's get it straight: are we talking about brush engine before or after CS5? The Photoshop's brush engine *before* CS5 is not much different from the current GIMP's engine. There are not so many missing things in GIMP right now (like dual brush). I know that for sure, because I reverse-engineered brush dynamics in ABR. The Photoshop's brush engine *after* CS5 -- now, that's a whole different thing, because Adobe is now trying to bite a piece of the pie that used to belong to Corel, SAI et al. The GIMP team seems to have agreed that Krita and MyPaint are doing a damn great job there already, so they [GIMP team] aren't going to do natural brushes or media simulation Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8
hi all, the reason I talked myself into the position of 'maintainer of default resources' (is that a title like 'floor manager' at mcdonalds?) at the LGM is that I voiced concern over how they can either enhance or sabotage the product vision: http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_UI_Redesign#product_vision to give a fictive, crass, but clear example: if somebody checks out GIMP because she is looking for a 'high-end photo manipulation application' and is confronted by 213 (well-drawn) clown face brushes, then we are in fact killing the GIMP project. first of all, resources in GIMP are: - brushes - patterns - gradients - palettes - paint dynamics - tool presets so what are we looking for for each of these resources? well, apart from rule nr.1 formulated above (enhance the product vision? in; sabotage? out) I think it is either 1) the default resource is a 'must-have primitive' for the resource type. simply cannot do without it. this is analogous to that a graphics program 'must have' a way to draw squares, rectangles, circles, ellipses, lines. or 2) the default resource is general purpose, very versatile. example: a brush to paint grass is _not_. a brush that with some tweaking and combining can be used to paint grass, hair, fur, brushed metal and rain _is_. or 3) the default resource showcases the depths and sophistication of the resource type. the stress here is on being educational and a starting point for users to make their own deep, sophisticated resources. I am not having high hopes for these defaults also to be 'must-have primitive' or 'general purpose, very versatile,' so there is not going to be a lot of them and they better be classy. oh, and talking about classy, there is going to be a 'no cheese rule'. a Leopard pattern? no no no. then here some notes for some of the resource types: patterns a first look here tell me that application of the rules above will clear out (almost) the whole section. size matters here, large (thousands instead of 16–128 pix) patterns to avoid visible repetition. the one thing I can think of we need pronto is one or more believable film grain patterns for photo manipulation. gradients similar big cull coming palettes the websafe/visibone stuff looks really deprecated in 2010. something like the Tango Icon Theme palette is an excellent example of a resource the fits with the product vision (GIMP is Free Software and a high-end application for producing icons). paint dynamics paint dynamics are still fully in development, including the actual functionality. it is not useful at the moment to contribute paint dynamics presets. one last thing: we have a green pepper problem. it fails several of criteria outlined above, but the GIMP team seems to be emotionally attached to it. similar to the GIMP name, we seem to wear it as a badge of honour. so I am 50/50 on in/out. this may prove to be the hardest decision of my career ^} --ps founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8
On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 10:49 AM, peter sikking pe...@mmiworks.net wrote: hi all, the reason I talked myself into the position of 'maintainer of default resources' (is that a title like 'floor manager' at mcdonalds?) at the LGM is that I voiced concern over how they can either enhance or sabotage the product vision: (...) one last thing: we have a green pepper problem. it fails several of criteria outlined above, but the GIMP team seems to be emotionally attached to it. similar to the GIMP name, we seem to wear it as a badge of honour. so I am 50/50 on in/out. this may prove to be the hardest decision of my career ^} One thing that applies to to the pepper , but may ease the conflict of what should go in or not: maybe the default resources could be tagged to default -- and instead of showing all items at program satrt=up, we could show just the deffault tagged items. That way, the pepper, sun, wine brushes could go under a bitmap tag, but have no default tag attached. That would also make it easier to display just the wanted gradients - several of the gradients shipped with GIMP are used in tiny-fu scripts. (as for the pepper per se, my personal opinion: I have no problem at all with it going away. I have _one_ real use for it: it helps me to locate the pixel brush, since it is next to it in alphabetical order. The pixel brush should, IMHO, be tagged pixel by default, so it can be found with less keystrokes) js -- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8
Thanks for opening this discussion, Peter. On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 9:49 AM, peter sikking pe...@mmiworks.net wrote: hi all, the reason I talked myself into the position of 'maintainer of default resources' (is that a title like 'floor manager' at mcdonalds?) at the LGM is that I voiced concern over how they can either enhance or sabotage the product vision: http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_UI_Redesign#product_vision 1) the default resource is a 'must-have primitive' for the resource type. simply cannot do without it. this is analogous to that a graphics program 'must have' a way to draw squares, rectangles, circles, ellipses, lines. It is ironic that you made this statement, as it is the most often repeated criticism I see made about GIMP (how difficult it is to draw shapes). And this (IMOO) should be a requirement under product vision 'GIMP is a high-end application for producing icons, graphical elements of web pages and art for user interface elements; or 3) the default resource showcases the depths and sophistication of the resource type. the stress here is on being educational and a starting point for users to make their own deep, sophisticated resources. I am not having high hopes for these defaults also to be 'must-have primitive' or 'general purpose, very versatile,' so there is not going to be a lot of them and they better be classy. Keeping a good example of GIH brushes is a necessity here, as it is one of the big features that I keep hearing PS users complain about _not_ having. Keeping the cheese factor down might be the issue. Personally, I'm a big fan of the ivy brush for this. I'd also suggest a bokeh brush might be appropriate here(?) and probably some grunge type brushes which are good for photo-manipulations. What is the status of vector brushes for 2.8? then here some notes for some of the resource types: patterns a first look here tell me that application of the rules above will clear out (almost) the whole section. size matters here, large (thousands instead of 16–128 pix) patterns to avoid visible repetition. Having a small section of halftone/dither patterns would possibly be of value here. I also keep a small 50% grey pattern to quickly build dodge/burn overlay layers when photo retouching. It is faster than having to open up the colour dialog and specifying 50% grey. the one thing I can think of we need pronto is one or more believable film grain patterns for photo manipulation. With resource tagging now a reality, is there any value in maintaining the .pat file type for these, or should they all be .png files with appropriate tags? gradients similar big cull coming Regarding the icon and web creation purpose I'd suggest a number of web 2.0 type gradients, providing gradients the complement what get chosen as default palettes. Please keep in metallic gradients. Regarding photo manipulation, I'd suggest a few cyanotype/duotone/tritone gradients that can be used with the gradient map filter. palettes the websafe/visibone stuff looks really deprecated in 2010. something like the Tango Icon Theme palette is an excellent example of a resource the fits with the product vision (GIMP is Free Software and a high-end application for producing icons). I realize there are restrictions on pantone colours but there any GPL compatible alternatives for spot colours? -Rob A ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8
On 7/19/10, peter sikking wrote: first of all, resources in GIMP are: - brushes - patterns - gradients - palettes - paint dynamics - tool presets - templates Let me say that the toilet paper one has caused a lot of unhealthy agiotage over the years worldwide :) Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8
I hope you don't deem it inappropriate for a non-developer to input his opinion on a developing issue but I'd like to add that people who are really concerned about what GIMP can not do are certainly not concerned about the set of brushes, patter etc pp. shipped with GIMP. If there is something to work on in, especially the brushes section then it is improving the brush engine to give greater GENERIC flexibility - take a commecrical brush engine as an example - I only know the PS one and I think that's what's needed. Predefined pattern and brushes are useless from a certain extend on. They just bloat the list with things you will never use. As an artist (which I am hardly) I will surely refrain from using an oversized set of patterns and brushes. A decent amount of generic patters and brushes (bitmap) are very good - common things, mostly grain patterns - no one uses apparently repetetive patterns and diffuse irregular brushes which cannot be generated. But then on the brush size, we need far more control over generic brushes. Again, look at PS. On 07/19/2010 07:27 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On 7/19/10, peter sikking wrote: first of all, resources in GIMP are: - brushes - patterns - gradients - palettes - paint dynamics - tool presets - templates Let me say that the toilet paper one has caused a lot of unhealthy agiotage over the years worldwide :) Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8
On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Cedric Sodhi man...@gmx.net wrote: size, we need far more control over generic brushes. Again, look at PS. Want to buy me a PS license and a Windows license? You still haven't taken a look at the current development status, have you? -- --Alexia ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8
On 7/19/10, Cedric Sodhi wrote: If there is something to work on in, especially the brushes section then it is improving the brush engine to give greater GENERIC flexibility The brush engine is already actively being worked on. You probably missed all v2.6-v2.7 reviews. Go read them, or, better, try 2.7.1. - take a commecrical brush engine as an example - I only know the PS one and I think that's what's needed. Let's get it straight: are we talking about brush engine before or after CS5? The Photoshop's brush engine *before* CS5 is not much different from the current GIMP's engine. There are not so many missing things in GIMP right now (like dual brush). I know that for sure, because I reverse-engineered brush dynamics in ABR. The Photoshop's brush engine *after* CS5 -- now, that's a whole different thing, because Adobe is now trying to bite a piece of the pie that used to belong to Corel, SAI et al. The GIMP team seems to have agreed that Krita and MyPaint are doing a damn great job there already, so they [GIMP team] aren't going to do natural brushes or media simulation Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8
On 07/19/2010 05:52 PM, Joao S. O. Bueno wrote: That way, the pepper, sun, wine brushes could go under a bitmap tag, but have no default tag attached. That would also make it easier to display just the wanted gradients - several of the gradients shipped with GIMP are used in tiny-fu scripts. Dealing with removal of resources that are used in plug-ins is already handled. Brushes put in $prefix/share/2.0/resource-type/gimp-obsolete-files will be available to plug-ins, but not show up in the UI. / Martin -- My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/ Automatic tab style and removed tab title bar ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8
Von: Alexandre Prokoudine alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com This is perhaps quite offtopic, but if it was possible to save guides in GIMP templates, the existing collection of them could be improved as well. https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=168541 HTH, Michael -- GMX DSL: Internet-, Telefon- und Handy-Flat ab 19,99 EUR/mtl. Bis zu 150 EUR Startguthaben inklusive! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8
Martin Nordholts enselic at gmail.com writes: Hi all, If you would like better default resources in GIMP, now is a great opportunity to do something about it. We want GIMP 2.8 to ship with a good set of default resources, but we need help from our artist community with this. Right now, we would like to do the following: * Add rake brushes * Add more bristle brushes * Add more realistic patterns from commonly used artistic media * Add more complex vector based brushes because of their good scaling properties * Add a selected subset of GIMP Paint Studio brushes and presets * Remove the outline squares * Convert small bitmap brushes to larger variants * Either create better example brushes of GIMP's capabilities, or keep existing ones * Make sure the new resources are properly tagged I'm an artist and I'm willing to help. Who do I contact to organize this? I'll need some explanations on the technicalities (how to create vector brushes), what rake and bristle brushes are, and exactly what patterns are wanted. I can contribute my own patterns - I have a small library of patterns I find useful in my work, but i don't know if they have a general appeal. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8
On 7/6/10, Martin Nordholts wrote: Hi all, If you would like better default resources in GIMP, now is a great opportunity to do something about it. We want GIMP 2.8 to ship with a good set of default resources, but we need help from our artist community with this. This is perhaps quite offtopic, but if it was possible to save guides in GIMP templates, the existing collection of them could be improved as well. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8
I don´t know if this helps, but there is already the GIMP GPS resources and I heard about GIMP painter, you could check with their authors to use what they have made, They would love having their work on GIMP. Em Qua, 2010-07-07 às 06:58 +0400, Alexandre Prokoudine escreveu: On 7/6/10, Martin Nordholts wrote: Hi all, If you would like better default resources in GIMP, now is a great opportunity to do something about it. We want GIMP 2.8 to ship with a good set of default resources, but we need help from our artist community with this. This is perhaps quite offtopic, but if it was possible to save guides in GIMP templates, the existing collection of them could be improved as well. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Help with new default resources in 2.8
On 07/07/2010 06:05 AM, Luiz Felipe Moraes Pereira wrote: I don´t know if this helps, but there is already the GIMP GPS resources and I heard about GIMP painter, you could check with their authors to use what they have made, They would love having their work on GIMP. Thanks for the tip, but it would be a lot easier if the resources would come to us, rather then requiring us to hunt them down. That was kind of the point with the mail. Perhaps you could look through GPS resources, match them with what we want in the default setup, contact the GPS author, and if he okay it, attach these resources to the bug for inclusion in 2.8? / Martin -- My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/ Automatic tab style and removed tab title bar ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer