Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-05-02 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

about ten days ago I wrote:

 Since Copy Visible is a script, it can't be moved next to Copy. At
 least not with the current menu system. Mitch is currently replacing
 it with GtkUIManager. We will see if it offers a better solution.

The good news is that this problem has indeed been solved by the port
to GtkUIManager. The new GTK+ API allows for named placeholders in the
menu hierarchy. This allows to group the menu items so that plug-ins
and scripts can register into the group they belong to. They still get
added at the end of the group but that's not necessarily the end of
the menu. The current CVS version now has Copy Visible next to
Copy :)

In case anyone cares, here's an excerpt from the XML file that defines
the image menu:


menu action=edit-menu name=Edit
  menuitem action=edit-undo/
  menuitem action=edit-redo/
  menuitem action=dialogs-undo-history/
  separator/
  placeholder name=Cut
menuitem action=edit-cut/
  /placeholder
  placeholder name=Copy
menuitem action=edit-copy/
  /placeholder
  placeholder name=Paste
menuitem action=edit-paste/
menuitem action=edit-paste-into/
menuitem action=edit-paste-as-new/
  /placeholder
  menu action=edit-buffer-menu name=Buffer
menuitem action=edit-named-cut/
menuitem action=edit-named-copy/
menuitem action=edit-named-paste/
  /menu
  separator/
  menuitem action=edit-clear/
  menuitem action=edit-fill-fg/
  menuitem action=edit-fill-bg/
  menuitem action=edit-fill-pattern/
  menuitem action=edit-stroke/
  menuitem action=vectors-stroke/
  separator/
/menu

This stuff is found in the new toplevel source directory menus.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-05-02 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

David Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Cool! Looking at Copy visible, you register a menu entry in 
 Image/Edit/Copy/Copy _Visible. Do placeholders act the same
 as menus?

Well, we are all new to this but it looks as if that's the case.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-22 Thread Dave Neary
Markus Triska wrote:
Again, I have to point out that I never intended to send the mail that Dave 
quoted to the list - I only thought that he would understand the issues I 
raised, and right I was.
I owe Markus a public apology for forwarding this on to the list.

In fact, the baby part of the mail was way down at the bottom of the reasons I 
did so. The main reason (as I've already said) is that it illustrates the point 
that this list is intimidating. The second reason was to expose the technical 
issue to a larger audience (which it did, and that is now resolved).

I intended to start a discussion on what we could do to make the list a 
friendlier place, and not one on censorship or sexual standards (which, while 
perhaps more interesting, is less useful to this community). With that in mind, 
the correct thing to do would have been to answer Markus's mail personally, 
and copy the appropriate section only into a separate mail to the list, 
conserving his anonymity.

That I didn't do that has, apparrently, made the list an even more intimidating 
place, and I now have to accept that I have aggravated the problem I was hoping 
we could address. I should have followed my own advice, and considered the 
person who sent me the mail before I mailed to the list. I apologise for not 
having done that, and ask Markus to excuse my behaviour.

Cheers,
Dave.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-22 Thread Markus Triska
Dear Carol!

 this is the part where you get embarrassed about the weird forwarding
 and spamming.

I am sorry for the inconvenience that I am causing you all as a new user of 
the mailing list (and, indeed, ANY mailing list).

When I answered your mail, I did not know that you had also sent it to the 
list, because I did not look at the mail addresses it was coming from, 
clicked Reply (instead of Reply all), and the result was that only you 
received my answer.

When I found out that you posted that on the list, I forwarded the mail to the 
list, too. I see nothing weird about this, and I have a different idea of 
spamming. The result would have been approximately the same if I had used 
the CC feature.

 i am curious as to what news markus follows and software he uses and
 plug-ins that came with the software.  what country and the over all
 ideas of his teachers and parents.

Maybe in 50 years from now, you can buy my biography if you are interested, 
which will perhaps contain a time-line of how my habits and opinions changed 
over time. By now, I have no intention to make my habits public. I think you 
will understand that I will not publicly announce the ideas of my teachers, 
relatives and other persons I am associated with (even if they are or were 
not alive any more, and even if they do or would coincide with my own), for 
several reasons, the simplest maybe being that they are nobody else's 
business. About the only hint about the programs I use that I ever gave in a 
program documentation was that I used SUSE Linux, and even that has changed 
by now, so in hindsight, this information was of no use to anyone, and I 
don't see the point.

Of course, if you are interested in how I can accomplish this and that with 
some programs, maybe I can help you. In fact, I will maybe write a tutorial 
for the Gimp in the future, because I think I have achieved now some skill in 
the area of photo enhancing.

 i just see a different image totally.  is it software?  is it because i
 try to have no interest in seeing bad things (unless i have a solution)?
 is it because i am a product of the evil american culture that i cannot
 see anything bad about this image?

 while i appreciate someone else being the new person to really abuse the
 mail lists (try cc and one time multiple mailings). ((check to see if it
 is sent to the list or not)).  (((forgive me when i screw up, sometimes
 -- all i get is mail list mail))) and send the email carefully. more
 carefully than me.


I do think that I send mail carefully. Do not assume that the possibility that 
the boy was Dave's child had not occurred to me before. However, I see no 
reason why this should change anything, except maybe giving hints to the 
explanation of Dave's reaction, and maybe not. I would have sent my mail to 
Dave also if it was not his boy, but for example my own daughter or son. 

 i am so confused about the problem with the image.

You do not have to be confused any more, the pic you are talking about is 
gone. If I had known that my initial mail to Dave would appear on the list, 
too, I would have phrased it differently so that everyone can follow my 
reasons. Given that I wanted to mail Dave directly, whose mind and thoughts I 
knew a bit from the mailing list, I formulated it as I saw fit to make myself 
understood by HIM, not by anyone else. As I see it, my mail was enough for 
him to make him understand what I wanted to communicate.

That having said, I want to end now this discussion which I did not want to 
happen and would not have started myself in the first place. This is the Gimp 
developer list, not a psychotherapy session.

Best regards,
Markus Triska.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-22 Thread Michael Schumacher
Markus Triska wrote:
Dear Carol!


this is the part where you get embarrassed about the weird forwarding
and spamming.


I am sorry for the inconvenience that I am causing you all as a new user of 
the mailing list (and, indeed, ANY mailing list).

When I answered your mail, I did not know that you had also sent it to the 
list, because I did not look at the mail addresses it was coming from, 
clicked Reply (instead of Reply all), and the result was that only you 
received my answer.

When I found out that you posted that on the list, I forwarded the mail to the 
list, too. I see nothing weird about this, and I have a different idea of 
spamming. The result would have been approximately the same if I had used 
the CC feature.
You don't have to blame yourself for this. Being used to mailing lists 
where reply-to is set to the mailing list address (assuming that 
personal replies are rare, and public replies the normal case), I 
sometimes do this on accident myself.

HTH,
Michael
--
The GIMP  http://www.gimp.org| IRC: irc://irc.gimp.org/gimp
Sodipodi  http://sodipodi.sf.net | IRC: irc://irc.gimp.org/sodipodi
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-22 Thread William Skaggs

Dave Neary wrote: 
I owe Markus a public apology for forwarding this on to the list.

Bravo!  I was confident that you would do the right thing, and you
have not disappointed me.

Best,
  -- Bill
 

 
__ __ __ __
Sent via the KillerWebMail system at primate.ucdavis.edu


 
   
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-22 Thread Dave Neary
Hi,

Carol Spears wrote:
is this person with the smutty mind a developer?
Perhaps you missed it, but he didn't mail the developers list. I did. And I 
shouldn't have.

Cheers,
Dave.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-22 Thread Nathan Carl Summers
On Wed, 21 Apr 2004, Carol Spears wrote:

 while i appreciate someone else being the new person to really abuse the
 mail lists (try cc and one time multiple mailings). ((check to see if it
 is sent to the list or not)).  (((forgive me when i screw up, sometimes
 -- all i get is mail list mail))) and send the email carefully. more
 carefully than me.

Ek!  I feel like I am reading sentences written in scheme!

:-P ;-) :-)

Rockwalrus

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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-22 Thread Markus Triska
Dear Carol!

 i dunno.  he got everything he asked for.  it did not even make sense to
 me and he got it.

Oh yeah, and I got so much more too, thank you very much. 

 this human being should be on the gimp users list.  it is polite and
 nice there.  
 
 i have a bad opinion of someone who so easily gets to change things on
 an established list.  if you want a friendly mail list about gimp,
 gimp-user list totally fullfills this.  
 
 is this person with the smutty mind a developer?

Carol, maybe the hint I provided before was to weak for you to notice. I did 
not expect *you* to understand my points. That is why I mailed Dave, and not 
you, and he did.

I am sorry that you have a bad opinion about me, and that maybe you think I 
have a smutty mind. Maybe if I had mailed Dave at a different point in 
time, catching him in a different mood, things would have turned up more 
brightly. I am very sad that I get to know you all when you are accusing me 
of the worst things one can think of.

Again, I apologize for all the inconvenience and chaos that my private mail to 
Dave has caused.

Best regards,
Markus Triska.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-22 Thread Nathan Carl Summers
On Thu, 22 Apr 2004, Carol Spears wrote:

 i have a bad opinion of someone who so easily gets to change things on
 an established list.

If I recall correctly, it was Dave who was asking for changes to the list,
or rather, a return to the civility that once was here.

 if you want a friendly mail list about gimp,
 gimp-user list totally fullfills this.

There is no reason why gimp-developer can't fulfil it as well.  Besides,
what if someone wants a friendly list to talk about gimp development
related issues?

 is this person with the smutty mind a developer?

I don't think he has a smutty mind, just is painfully mindful of those
that do.  And there should be no chinese wall between the developers and
the users.  How else can the developers know what the users think, need,
and want?  With no feedback, it's hard to know if changes to the gimp make
it more useful and usable.

Rockwalrus

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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-22 Thread Carol Spears
On Thu, Apr 22, 2004 at 02:31:38PM -0700, Nathan Carl Summers wrote:
 On Thu, 22 Apr 2004, Carol Spears wrote:
 
 I don't think he has a smutty mind, just is painfully mindful of those
 that do.  And there should be no chinese wall between the developers and
 the users.  How else can the developers know what the users think, need,
 and want?  With no feedback, it's hard to know if changes to the gimp make
 it more useful and usable.
 
it is a discussion of what appears on a gimp user based web site.  bolsh
mailed it to the list he reads.

actually, what has happened here is that developers have made decisions
for users.  this time it happened because someone with a users concerns
was joined to the wrong list.

so, for what ever reason, good or bad, right or wrong -- the user web
site has once again been commandeered by the developers and changed for
absolutely no good reasons.

i have much more respect for the developers who are receiving gimp-user
mail.  i have no idea why developers who do not participate on the
gimp-user list are making decisions for the gimp-user site.

i am not even in a bad mood and i am saying once again, for shame.  all
of you.

carol

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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-21 Thread Simon Budig
Dave Neary ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 Markus Triska wrote:
 Also, I find the picture of the wet baby in the Screen Shots section 
 rather annoying. I mean, it's not the baby's fault, but I think that with 
 all the stuff going on in Europe (Dutroux), placing a half-naked kid with 
 amateur lightning in this section is not a matter of particularly good 
 taste. Maybe it would be good to show more neutral photographs, like skies 
 and landscapes etc. that are bright and where's much to look at.
 
 The baby is my son, I didn't think of any negative connotations, but indeed 
 I wasn't thinking that way. Given your comments and the way you saw it, I 
 will take them down. I'm not sure where screenshot submissions should go 
 though - perhaps someone else will pipe up with ideas about that?

I don't think that taking down the screenshot in question is necessary
at all. In fact I believe that it would be counterproductive to do so.

The Photo in question is a perfectly normal baby photo. It is funny to
look at. It doesn't expose any private parts and I actually don't get
how one can make a connection to the Dutroux case. I don't think that we
should stop showing baby photos, just because some sick people might get
weird ideas when looking at these photos.

When doing so we also should stop using photos of forests, because
people could die in horrible fires in there, we should stop using photos
of deserts, because people might get exposed there by terrorists and
die a horrible death, and we should not show photos of skies, because
skies are the things where planes drop out and crash into buildings.

I think that babies are probably one of the most human things out there
and we should not stop showing things that basically define humanity,
just because there are some people that did horrible things to babies.

That having said: If Dave wants to remove the image he of course can and
has the right to. But I think it would be utterly wrong to do it just
for the reason given by Marcus.

Thanks for listening.
Simon

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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-21 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  I have beein playing around with Gimp for some time now, and one
  procedure I apply every once in a while is to make a copy of each
  visible layer and merge them to a new one (as a means comparable to
  CVS tagging - to mark and save a stage of development). In fact, I
  have beein wondering why this is not an option in the layer context
  menu (like copy visible and merge those) - is there maybe a better
  way to do this? I use it also when I need a filter to operater on
  the whole picture (all layers).

There is Selection-Copy Visible which essentially does just that.

  Also, I find the picture of the wet baby in the Screen Shots
  section rather annoying. I mean, it's not the baby's fault, but I
  think that with all the stuff going on in Europe (Dutroux), placing
  a half-naked kid with amateur lightning in this section is not a
  matter of particularly good taste. Maybe it would be good to show
  more neutral photographs, like skies and landscapes etc. that are
  bright and where's much to look at.
 
 The baby is my son, I didn't think of any negative connotations, but
 indeed I wasn't thinking that way. Given your comments and the way
 you saw it, I will take them down. I'm not sure where screenshot
 submissions should go though -
 perhaps someone else will pipe up with ideas about that?

Please don't take the pixture down. It's ridiculous to say that
putting such a picture on the internet will cause children to be
abused. People who abouse children are sick; not showing them baby
pictures won't change that. The picture is in no way offensive and
anyone who draws a relation to the Dutroux tragedy is either sick
himself or overly cautious.

Of course it's your choice what to do since it's the picture of your
son. But I don't think there's any reason to take it down.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-21 Thread Branko Collin
On 21 Apr 2004, at 14:33, Dave Neary wrote:
 Markus Triska:

  Also, I find the picture of the wet baby in the Screen Shots
  section rather annoying. I mean, it's not the baby's fault, but I
  think that with all the stuff going on in Europe (Dutroux), placing
  a half-naked kid with amateur lightning in this section is not a
  matter of particularly good taste. Maybe it would be good to show
  more neutral photographs, like skies and landscapes etc. that are
  bright and where's much to look at.
 
 The baby is my son, I didn't think of any negative connotations, but
 indeed I wasn't thinking that way. Given your comments and the way
 you saw it, I will take them down. I'm not sure where screenshot
 submissions should go though - perhaps someone else will pipe up with
 ideas about that?
 
Dave, 

I agree with your comments re: a friendly, welcoming mailing list. 
This list should not scare people away from asking valid questions. 
Instead, it should guide people into asking valid questions in a 
developer friendly way.

Similarly, people should not be scared into omitting perfectly 
innocent baby photos. Instead, problems like the Dutroux case should 
be tackled head on, not avoided. People should not be afraid to ask 
questions or post baby photos, and we as a community (either the GIMP 
community or the world community) should strive to create an 
enviroment in which fear becomes a positive katalyst, not an 
inhibitor.

I for one thought it was kind of cute how all GIMP tutorials seemed 
to revolve around baby photos lately.

-- 
branko collin
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-21 Thread Branko Collin
On 21 Apr 2004, at 15:20, Sven Neumann wrote:

 anyone who draws a relation to the Dutroux tragedy [and baby 
photos] is [...] sick

These kind of remarks may be the reason why somebody like Markus does 
not feel welcome to post here. You are overgeneralizing and jumping 
at conclusions while lacking the data that would support those 
conclusions. 

-- 
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-21 Thread Dave Neary
Hi,

Sven Neumann wrote:
Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I make a copy of each
visible layer and merge them to a new one. I
have beein wondering why this is not an option in the layer context
menu (like copy visible and merge those).
There is Selection-Copy Visible which essentially does just that.
I would never have found that in a million years. Would it be possible/desirable 
to duplicate this function in the Layers menu (Layers-Copy Visible or wherever) 
which creates a new layer which is a combination of the visible ones?

The baby is my son, I didn't think of any negative connotations, but
indeed I wasn't thinking that way. Given your comments and the way
you saw it, I will take them down.
Please don't take the pixture down. It's ridiculous to say that
putting such a picture on the internet will cause children to be
abused. People who abouse children are sick; not showing them baby
pictures won't change that. The picture is in no way offensive and
anyone who draws a relation to the Dutroux tragedy is either sick
himself or overly cautious.
Of course it's your choice what to do since it's the picture of your
son. But I don't think there's any reason to take it down.
I took the screenshot down, and perhaps I should explain why in light of Simon 
and Sven's comments... when I read this mail, I got defensive a bit - the 
thought that someone thought the photo could be viewed sexually kind of turned 
my stomach. So I took it down.

Anyway - people kind of missed the whole point of me sending that to the list... 
this person mailed me off-list because he saw me as someone safe to talk to. 
That's not a nice way to have things on our mailing list. What can we do to 
change that?

Cheers,
Dave.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-21 Thread David Gmez
Hi ; ),

 Also, I find the picture of the wet baby in the Screen Shots section 
 rather annoying. I mean, it's not the baby's fault, but I think that with 
 all the stuff going on in Europe (Dutroux), placing a half-naked kid with 
 amateur lightning in this section is not a matter of particularly good 
 taste. Maybe it would be good to show more neutral photographs, like skies 
 and landscapes etc. that are bright and where's much to look at.

I find that observation rather exaggerated. There is no special
situation in Europe, at least in the Europe i live in. And a baby picture
is just a baby picture, anything else is just on the mind of 
of those who look at the picture, no matter if it's a professional
photograph or a amateur one with you digital camera.

Of course the photo is from Dave's son and he can do whatever he thinks
is better with it...

 will take them down. I'm not sure where screenshot submissions should go 
 though - perhaps someone else will pipe up with ideas about that?

I think the actual policy is ok, to put good screenshots, not politically
correct ones.

Regards,

-- 
David Gómez

The question of whether computers can think is just like the question of
 whether submarines can swim. -- Edsger W. Dijkstra
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-21 Thread Dave Neary
Hi,

Sven Neumann wrote:
There is Selection-Copy Visible which essentially does just that.
I don't have a Copy visible entry in the Selection menu. Is this in 2.0.x or 
in the HEAD?

Cheers,
Dave.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-21 Thread Dave Neary
Hi,

David Gómez wrote:
I'm not sure where screenshot submissions should go 
though - perhaps someone else will pipe up with ideas about that?


I think the actual policy is ok, to put good screenshots, not politically
correct ones.
My point was that I'm not sure what the policy for getting screenshots on the 
website(s) is. That is, where to send them, where that's documented and so on.

Cheers,
Dave.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-21 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  There is Selection-Copy Visible which essentially does just that.
 
 I would never have found that in a million years. Would it be
 possible/desirable to duplicate this function in the Layers menu
 (Layers-Copy Visible or wherever) which creates a new layer which is
 a combination of the visible ones?

Selection-Copy Visible is next to Selection-Copy. That's IMO the
perfect place and it does certainly not belong into the Layer menu.
You might not have noticed, but there is no Layers menu at all.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-21 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I don't have a Copy visible entry in the Selection menu. Is this in
 2.0.x or in the HEAD?

Me stupid. Of course it's Edit-Copy Visible, next to Edit-Copy.
And IIRC it's there since GIMP-1.0. It's definitely in GIMP-1.2 and
GIMP-2.0.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-21 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Branko Collin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  anyone who draws a relation to the Dutroux tragedy [and baby 
 photos] is [...] sick
 
 These kind of remarks may be the reason why somebody like Markus does 
 not feel welcome to post here. You are overgeneralizing and jumping 
 at conclusions while lacking the data that would support those 
 conclusions. 

It's you who is interpreting that into the words I've written.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-21 Thread Dave Neary
Hi,

Sven Neumann wrote:
Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
There is Selection-Copy Visible which essentially does just that.
I would never have found that in a million years. Would it be
possible/desirable to duplicate this function in the Layers menu
(Layers-Copy Visible or wherever) which creates a new layer which is
a combination of the visible ones?
Selection-Copy Visible is next to Selection-Copy. That's IMO the
perfect place and it does certainly not belong into the Layer menu.
You might not have noticed, but there is no Layers menu at all.
Still don't see it. I thought the Copy  Paste items were in the Edit menu 
anyway? And my point is that I would never have associated create 1 layer 
containing the merging of the visible layers to be in the Selection menu. That 
is clearly (for this usage) something you expect to find in the Layers dock 
context menu, and perhaps the Layer menu.

You still haven't said if this is in 2.0.x or HEAD - if you're talking about 
HEAD, then I am not able to verify what you're saying. Where was this 
reorganisation of the menus discussed? Or if it wasn't discussed, where's the 
document outlining how it will be now?

Cheers,
Dave.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-21 Thread William Skaggs
Aargh, what a mess.  Okay, to sum up:  it's Edit-Copy Visible, which
is exactly where it should be, in the Edit menu with Copy.  Possibly a 
name like Copy All Visible would be better, and possibly it should be 
next to Copy instead of at the bottom, but still inevitably many people
will take a while to learn about it.

Regarding hostility, short of booting people from the list when they
say hostile things, the best approach is to refrain from saying hostile
things or responding to them.  And there is no way, under any circumstances, 
in any situation, to say negative things about baby pictures without 
provoking hostile responses.

Best,
  -- Bill
 

 
__ __ __ __
Sent via the KillerWebMail system at primate.ucdavis.edu


 
   
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-21 Thread Simon Budig
Michael Schumacher ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 Dave Neary wrote:
 Anyway - people kind of missed the whole point of me sending that to the 
 list... this person mailed me off-list because he saw me as someone 
 safe to talk to. That's not a nice way to have things on our mailing 
 list. What can we do to change that?
 
 Did you ask them why they think you are safe to talk to - and maybe 
 even more interesting, why others don't seem to be safe?

Well, talking to a potentially huge audience is always a hurdle,
especially when you might feel uncomfortable expressing yourself in a
non-native language.

And also unfortunately gimp-devel does not have a reputation as a
particularily friendly list. People on this list will happily pin you
down on your errors as well as brusquely discarding ideas as dumb or
non-productive.

Ok, I admit that mentioning errors or discussing the pros/cons of an
idea is important, but frequently I am bothered by the tone of these
responses.

Ok, this is a bit of a rant and I am unsure on how to turn this into a
productive mail (except repeating known recipes on how to write good
mails). So please bear with me  :-)

Bye,
Simon
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-21 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

William Skaggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Aargh, what a mess.  Okay, to sum up:  it's Edit-Copy Visible, which
 is exactly where it should be, in the Edit menu with Copy.  Possibly a 
 name like Copy All Visible would be better, and possibly it should be 
 next to Copy instead of at the bottom, but still inevitably many people
 will take a while to learn about it.

Since Copy Visible is a script, it can't be moved next to Copy. At
least not with the current menu system. Mitch is currently replacing
it with GtkUIManager. We will see if it offers a better solution.

 Regarding hostility, short of booting people from the list when they
 say hostile things, the best approach is to refrain from saying
 hostile things or responding to them.  And there is no way, under
 any circumstances, in any situation, to say negative things about
 baby pictures without provoking hostile responses.

Well, it was definitely a bad idea of Dave to forward this stuff to
the list since the author more or less asked for keeping it private.
It would have been better to ask the author of the mail to resend the
question to the list himself. It would have been his choice then
whether to include this statement or not.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-21 Thread David Neary
Hi,

Sven Neumann wrote:
 Well, it was definitely a bad idea of Dave to forward this stuff to
 the list since the author more or less asked for keeping it private.

That is really badly missing the point, then.

Here are the questions that we need to consider - 

1) What makes the mailing lists a hostile environment?
2) What can we do to change that?
3) If finger-pointing would help, who are the biggest offenders,
and how is their behaviour/language intimidating?
4) What is the minimum standard we expect from people before they
are considered worthy to make propositions? I ask this because 
it is an impression that comes across that certain contributions
are dismissed rather too easily.

For my part, some of the things I don't like are the comments
like Everybody knows that..., or that has been planned for
some time now, or worse don't waste your time doing that. I
think that we should try and avoid saying that things are easy or
planned until there has been some planning work done or someone
has claimed a task.

A few years ago I had an awful habit of starting questions where
I had an idea what needed to be done with Why don't you just...
- it's a habit which annoyed my co-workers who had spent some
time thinking about things, and for whom the just wasn't
trivial, as well as implicitly belittling them. 

 It would have been better to ask the author of the mail to resend the
 question to the list himself.

That is really missing the point of why I sent the mail to the
list.

Despite the fact that this is something that we have known about
for years, and have discussed at length on several occasions,
contributing the the GIMP is in general extremely frustrating,
and not particularly rewarding in terms of kudos. It's one of the
reasons that I've been making less effort to make the time to 
contribute for the last month or so. If we do not change that,
soon, then this project is a dead duck.

Cheers,
Dave.

-- 
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   Lyon, France
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-21 Thread Markus Triska
Dear Dave!

Sorry if this message appears somewhere outside the original thread - I could 
not figure out how to use the list properly, although I really tried this 
time.


 Anyway - people kind of missed the whole point of me sending that to the
 list... this person mailed me off-list because he saw me as someone safe
 to talk to. That's not a nice way to have things on our mailing list. What
 can we do to change that?

As a first step, you could treat private mails as such. For me, this would 
have been enough.

Best regards,
Markus Triska.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-21 Thread Michael Schumacher
Markus Triska wrote:

Anyway - people kind of missed the whole point of me sending that to the
list... this person mailed me off-list because he saw me as someone safe
to talk to. That's not a nice way to have things on our mailing list. What
can we do to change that?
As a first step, you could treat private mails as such. For me, this would 
have been enough.
Since the mail is public now (I'd assumed that Dave did ask you first), 
I'd like to ask:

Do you have problems with posting to the list in general (because there 
is someone or something you cinsider unsafe) or just because of the 
rather difficult topic?

Michael

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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-21 Thread Carol Spears
hi, i was offline for the whole thread.  also, i have only read through
half of it.  i was delighted when dave neary shared this tutorial with
me and was willing to put it online.  so often, there is so much trouble
because people do not see this world to be as wonderful and nice in the
same ways i do.

i dont know if it is the software or that i wasnt taught enough about
the harm that can come to people or that i am unable to imagine it until
someone clearly explains it to me -- but sometimes i see different
things than everyone else does.

On Wed, Apr 21, 2004 at 02:33:35PM +0200, Dave Neary wrote:
 
 Hi Marcus,
 
 I'm forwarding your mail to the developers list for two reasons.
 
 First, it's a major problem that people feel obliged to mail people 
 off-list because they are safe to talk to and this is something that we 
 need to talk about urgently. For the benefit of the people on the list, 
 this is not the first time this has happened. It seems like I get mail from 
 people weekly from people who have valid points to raise, but are 
 intimidated by the list.
 
i was intimidated by this list.  i was intimidated by the talent and my
heros and the very eloquent writing skills and ways of all the different
educational and locational backgrounds.

i was afraid that i would offend them or make an idiot of myself or
well, the list goes on.  i wrote anyways and fullfilled most of these
fears.  

i dont blame people for being intimidated.

bolsh should have remained intimidated for longer as well (just my
opinion).

 Markus Triska wrote:
 
 Dear Dave!
 
 First, let me explain my greatest thanks and admiration for Gimp 2.0. You 
 all did a great job.
 
 I'm writing you because from following the mailing list I got the 
 impression that you are someone that I can contact safely with my issues:
 
 I have beein playing around with Gimp for some time now, and one procedure 
 I apply every once in a while is to make a copy of each visible layer and 
 merge them to a new one (as a means comparable to CVS tagging - to mark 
 and save a stage of development). In fact, I have beein wondering why this 
 is not an option in the layer context menu (like copy visible and merge 
 those) - is there maybe a better way to do this? I use it also when I 
 need a filter to operater on the whole picture (all layers).
 
this is a three step event for me.  as you can read from the other
thread, there have been several different ways to do this and it moves
around often in the menus.

try this:
Image --Image --Merge Visible [ok]
Image --Edit --Copy
Image --Edit --Undo
Image --Edit --Paste

okay, a few more than three steps, but this has not failed to work since
gimp-1.0 and the options have never moved.

 Also, I find the picture of the wet baby in the Screen Shots section 
 rather annoying. I mean, it's not the baby's fault, but I think that with 
 all the stuff going on in Europe (Dutroux), placing a half-naked kid with 
 amateur lightning in this section is not a matter of particularly good 
 taste. Maybe it would be good to show more neutral photographs, like skies 
 and landscapes etc. that are bright and where's much to look at.
 
 The baby is my son, I didn't think of any negative connotations, but indeed 
 I wasn't thinking that way. Given your comments and the way you saw it, I 
 will take them down. I'm not sure where screenshot submissions should go 
 though - perhaps someone else will pipe up with ideas about that?
 
what i saw when i saw the photo of this baby was a dork who had a good
relationship with a beautiful woman.  those are the images i saw and the
man i came to know while working on gimp development.

now, if i dont google for a scandalous news item that well, i try to
fill my time learning about computers and art and history and science
and other productive things that i have no time left for these scandals
that depress me and cause me to lose touch of the good things that are
around me -- if i dont read about the tragedy cited here, i my
imagination will run through all the things that i *did not see* when i
was delighted to get this photo that was the product of a lovely
relationship.

and something went wrong, because my intentions were to show poor shy
volunteer developers that they might have a nice relationship with a
beautiful woman that produces a beautiful child like the one i watched
bolsh have.

so if dorks having productive relationships with beautiful women is too
much for the world -- i dunno what to do.  

if my honesty about what i saw in this image becomes something that
raises the value of that image -- well, this is a screwed up goofy world
and i will never get it.

sorry if i have been scary or offensive.  i have even scared and
offended myself this last year.  so we can have a mutual scared and
offended pity party 

carol

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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-21 Thread Carol Spears
On Thu, Apr 22, 2004 at 02:00:28AM +, Markus Triska wrote:
 Apparently, Dave has understood my point and has taken the photo off the web. 
 That was in my opinion the only correct behaviour. I think we can agree that 
 we would not show a naked woman in a Gimp advertisement, even if it is 
 perfectly natural. So why would you show a naked baby? I think one should not 
 do this. On a side note, displaying a static photograph does not do justice 
 to the Gimp's functionaliy either. I can use kview for that. Let us both have 
 a look at Adobe's screenshot section of photoshop. I bet they are pretty 
 proud to show off with features and stuff that their PRODUCT is able to 
 provide.
 
i have looked at the adobe photoshop web site perhaps 4 times.  for
information to help my friend run her photoshop le.

we did not ever find the information we were searching for.

can you just explain what the differences are and what should matter to
us?

carol

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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-21 Thread Markus Triska
Again, I am copying the response I sent to Carol a few moments ago verbatim.

--



Dear Carol!


 i have looked at the adobe photoshop web site perhaps 4 times.  for
 information to help my friend run her photoshop le.

Meanwhile, I have tried too, and it was indeed a bit hard to get to 
screenshots.

 can you just explain what the differences are and what should matter to
 us?

Yeah, they show no naked persons, just as I expected. In contrast, the Gimp 
site was doing so until recently. Fortunately, this has now changed.

Best regards,
Markus.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-21 Thread Markus Triska
Hello, I noticed this moment that Carol wrote this also to the mailing list. 
Please excuse the confusion, but until recently, it was not necessary for me 
to be subscribed to the list, so I'm not sure if this mail is attached to the 
right thread.

I am copying the reply that I wrote to Carol verbatim - it is a pretty safe 
bet to assume that if I had written the response to be read by all list 
members, I would have phrased many things of the initial post differently.

This mail hopefully also sheds some light on what I meant with safe.

--



Dear Carol!

Thank you for your message.

 i dont blame people for being intimidated.

When I said it would be safe to ask Dave, I meant he very probably would not 
come up with the don't ask me, I'm a developer-argument that one can 
(rightfully) expect from a developer. I understand very well the difference 
between developing and FAQ and documentation teams. It is just that the only 
list I follow is the developer list, and David seemed to belong at least with 
one leg (if not with two) to the documentation team too, so it seemed natural 
for me to approach him instead of, say, Sven.

I understand also that my issues have nothing to do with Gimp development, and 
THEREFORE I did not send them to the list myself.


 okay, a few more than three steps, but this has not failed to work since
 gimp-1.0 and the options have never moved.

Thank you.


 what i saw when i saw the photo of this baby was a dork who had a good
 relationship with a beautiful woman.  those are the images i saw and the
 man i came to know while working on gimp development.

Apparently, Dave has understood my point and has taken the photo off the web. 
That was in my opinion the only correct behaviour. I think we can agree that 
we would not show a naked woman in a Gimp advertisement, even if it is 
perfectly natural. So why would you show a naked baby? I think one should not 
do this. On a side note, displaying a static photograph does not do justice 
to the Gimp's functionaliy either. I can use kview for that. Let us both have 
a look at Adobe's screenshot section of photoshop. I bet they are pretty 
proud to show off with features and stuff that their PRODUCT is able to 
provide.

Best regards,
Markus Triska.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-21 Thread Markus Triska
OK, and this is another reply I had meanwhile sent (to Sven, in this case), 
and I hope the mailing list agent will know where it fits in - apparently 
some parsing of the quoted text is done to make sure that the thread 
hierarchy is maintained.

Sorry if this is getting a bit redundant, but I hope I have now made my point 
clear.

Best regards,
Markus Triska.

---


 It's ridiculous to say that putting such a picture on the internet will
 cause children to be abused

For the record, I want to note that I did not say that, as you seem to imply 
in your reply.

 The picture is in no way offensive and anyone who draws a relation to the 
 Dutroux tragedy is either sick himself or overly cautious.

I think we can agree that most of us rather would not have a screen-shot of an 
adult woman or man, half-naked like this, in the screen-shots section, albeit 
professional models who get paid for their job. I do not know why you make a 
difference for children. If I had not mailed Dave, how long would the photo 
still be around? Maybe his children will be thankful some day, when they 
understand what was going on, that not everyone has a photo of them with no 
clothes on.

Given that Dave seems to have understood my point and removed the picture, I 
consider the issue resolved.

I want to thank you again for your efforts. As far as I can tell, you are 
doing a great job.

Best regards,
Markus Triska.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-21 Thread Markus Triska


 Do you have problems with posting to the list in general (because there is
 someone or something you cinsider unsafe) or just because of the rather
 difficult topic?

No, as I outlined in a previous mail, I used safe solely to indicate that I 
assumed Dave would have no objections to be asked about some apparently 
simple usability issue (where, in contrast, a normal developer could have - 
rightfully - pointed me to some other place). I deducted this from all the 
posts in which Dave stated that developers should also answer questions, and 
that he himself in fact did and had done so.

I can only emphasize again that I know very well the difference between a 
development and a FAQ and documentation team, and I would never have molested 
Dave with my question were it not for him pointing out that he had no problem 
with that and in a sense begging for mail.

It certainly has nothing to do with the mailing list (this is only how I came 
to know Dave). If Dave would not exist, or would not post such things to 
the developer's list, I would have sent the question to some person working 
on the Wiki, or to the Gimp-User-mailing list, or somewhere else, but never 
to this place (which I, in fact, have not).

It just happens that the developer's list is the only one I follow, and thus 
it seemed natural for me to contact Dave, and the quickest way to get a 
useful reply.

I did not know that it would turn out this complicated and chaotic. I am sorry 
that I have caused you so much trouble and confusion.

Best regards,
Markus Triska.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-21 Thread pcg
On Thu, Apr 22, 2004 at 03:53:18AM +, Markus Triska [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 we would not show a naked woman in a Gimp advertisement, even if it is 
 perfectly natural. So why would you show a naked baby?

Because that's apples to bananas. Naked woman are sexually attractive to
normal people. and babies are not.(*)

Hinting that babies are objects of sexual desire is becoming more and
more commonplace nowadays, in certain cultures at least (mostly, but not
limited to, the us). I do not believe that this is a good direction.

In other words, people who equate babies (or children) with sexually
desirable objects automatically acknowledge that babies _are_ valid sexual
objects. They are not, and harassing others to think that way is not,
IMnsHO, a direction we should take.

I think this is what Sven wanted to hint at with his comment (that such
people were sick). It is not the right thing to do to make yourself a
slave of this babies are sexually attractive thinking, which is, as you
hopefully agree, not normal. If you don't, then photos of babies are just
that, and should evoke feelings of joy, especially for the parents :=

I voiced my opinion on this mainly to not leave Dave in a kind of limbo,
as if he did something wrong. What he did was not wrong at all.

(*) pedosexuality is still a mental illness, as defined by most medical
associations. (**)

(**) homosexuality was a mental illness back in the seventies, and the
attempts by doctors to get pedosexuality off the list of mental illnesses
have increased a lot recently, so I do not know what the future brings,
maybe that proves me wrong

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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Gimp 2.0

2004-04-21 Thread Markus Triska

 Because that's apples to bananas. Naked woman are sexually attractive to
 normal people. and babies are not.(*)

This obviously can not be the primary reason why we would not show naked 
women. The reason, as I understand it, is that the depicted persons easily 
lose their dignity when they are shown naked. That would be a different thing 
for an artistic, professional picture. For example, I can remember an 
advertisment of an afro-american, muscular man, naked, holding a white, naked 
baby. I have no problem with that, and it would make an excellent 
screen-shot, if not particularly useful to point out Gimp's features (which 
you should strive to accomplish). Having a poorly lit, amateur photograph 
showing a naked child that was presumably just having a bath is to my mind a 
different story.

As I stated in a previous mail, If I had not mailed Dave, how long would the 
photo still have been around? Maybe his children will be thankful some day, 
when they understand what was going on, that not everyone has a photo of them 
with no clothes on.

We need not delve further into those subjects (although I notice that you 
raise interesting points), because Dave has decided to take the photo off the 
web. I think that was a good move, and I'm done with that.

 Hinting that babies are objects of sexual desire is becoming more and
 more commonplace nowadays, in certain cultures at least (mostly, but not
 limited to, the us). I do not believe that this is a good direction.

I live outside the US, and the first thing coming to my mind when I saw the 
photo was the alleged criminal. I had no choice of what I wanted to come to 
my mind, so it was this, of which all newspapers here tell these days. I 
think that it is unreasonable to assume I am the only person who reacted this 
way. If I had known that Dave would forward my mail to the list, I would have 
thought of other reasons that people outside Europe could easily follow. 
Apparently, Dave could.


 I think this is what Sven wanted to hint at with his comment (that such
 people were sick). It is not the right thing to do to make yourself a
 slave of this babies are sexually attractive thinking, which is, as you
 hopefully agree, not normal. If you don't, then photos of babies are just
 that, and should evoke feelings of joy, especially for the parents :=

Yes, absolutely. And on a side note, I wish Dave the best for his son and 
everything, and hope he makes many pictures of him to keep, and to show him 
later. But he does not have to place those in the Gimp screen shots section, 
that's it.

 I voiced my opinion on this mainly to not leave Dave in a kind of limbo,
 as if he did something wrong. What he did was not wrong at all.

Again, I have to point out that I never intended to send the mail that Dave 
quoted to the list - I only thought that he would understand the issues I 
raised, and right I was.

Best regards,
Markus Triska.
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