Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-21 Thread Michael Natterer
On Wed, 2008-02-20 at 11:34 +1030, David Gowers wrote:
 There is no guarantee that there will be any taskbar at all. On linux,
 there are plenty of WM's that either provide a taskbar that is not
 suitable to implement your described behaviour, or no taskbar at all (
 i use one of these myself, DWM (http://www.suckless.org/wiki/dwm)).
 IMO taskbars are a kludge, and it is a mistake for an application to
 *depend* on them for basic usability.

To quote from that Window Manager's web page:

Because dwm is customized through editing its source code, it's
pointless to
 make binary packages of it. This keeps its userbase small and elitist.
 No novices asking stupid questions.

I think you just disqualified yourself to say anything about
usability here.

ciao,
--mitch

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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-21 Thread David Gowers
On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 10:12 PM, Michael Natterer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, 2008-02-20 at 11:34 +1030, David Gowers wrote:

  There is no guarantee that there will be any taskbar at all. On linux,
   there are plenty of WM's that either provide a taskbar that is not
   suitable to implement your described behaviour, or no taskbar at all (
   i use one of these myself, DWM (http://www.suckless.org/wiki/dwm)).
   IMO taskbars are a kludge, and it is a mistake for an application to
   *depend* on them for basic usability.

  To quote from that Window Manager's web page:

  Because dwm is customized through editing its source code, it's
  pointless to
   make binary packages of it. This keeps its userbase small and elitist.
   No novices asking stupid questions.

  I think you just disqualified yourself to say anything about
  usability here.
That's a straw man. There are many tiling WM's, and only two of them
are written by Anselm Garbe. It's quite common for tiling WMs (eg.
dwm, Ion, wmii, ratpoison,  stumpwm) to not have taskbars, because
they are simply unnecessary when you can see the current windows at a
glance. Mainstream WM's are a window management nightmare -- by which
I mean the user is constantly being called on to manage windows, to
make decisions that could in most instances be made well by the
computer, and the need for a task bar in such WM's just reflects this
basic demand for micromanagement imposed by an overconfigurable
concept of window management. It's not bad that the user can configure
their WM, or even their windows -- they should only rarely be called
on to configure their windows, since it's perfectly possible to treat
the majority of windows in a way that Just Works.

In short -- taskbars save you some of the time that your WM otherwise
calls upon you to waste.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-20 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

On Wed, 2008-02-20 at 11:34 +1030, David Gowers wrote:

 There is no guarantee that there will be any taskbar at all. On linux,
 there are plenty of WM's that either provide a taskbar that is not
 suitable to implement your described behaviour, or no taskbar at all (
 i use one of these myself, DWM (http://www.suckless.org/wiki/dwm)).
 IMO taskbars are a kludge, and it is a mistake for an application to
 *depend* on them for basic usability.


I don't think opening an image per DND counts as basic functionality. If
you are working on a desktop that doesn't provide basic functionality
like some sort of taskbar, then you may miss a feature or two. No
problem as long as you can still open an image somehow.


Sven


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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-20 Thread Laxminarayan Kamath
On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 7:45 PM, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Wed, 2008-02-20 at 11:34 +1030, David Gowers wrote:

 There is no guarantee that there will be any taskbar at all.
snip/
 IMO taskbars are a kludge, and it is a mistake for an application to
 *depend* on them for basic usability.

 I don't think opening an image per DND counts as basic functionality. If
 you are working on a desktop that doesn't provide basic functionality
 like some sort of taskbar, then you may miss a feature or two. No
 problem as long as you can still open an image somehow.

Completely agree. GIMP need not worry too much about this. If you
still want a place to DND in this situation, you can always write a
simple but separate app that gives just a DND basket like d4x or kget
gives. For whatever is dropped on it, you can always call gimp's
remote.  Heck! you can even make it intelligent and open the app you
want based on different criteria! But that is enough said on GIMP's
list. :-)



-- 
Laxminarayan Kamath Ammembal
(+91) 9945036093
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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-19 Thread peter sikking
OK guys,

here comes the moment where I have to cut the crap.

Just like Sven or Mitch cut the crap when users keep discussing things
that are technically not possible, I have to cut the crap when we keep
discussing interaction that simply does not make sense.

That is why I listed the gimmicks at the start of the UI spec:
it has been checked, forget it, over my dead body.

In difficult times like this I always go back to the product vision
and GIMP is an high-end 'pro' app. It is used in an environment with
other applications to get the job (or hobby) done.

If you can see that whole picture, than you can feel where I am going.

I'd rather spend some time now to show in the spec what I mean and
to figure out what happens to the toolbox and inspectors when no
file is open (hmmm, recent files dialog should stay open...).

Sven wrote:

 we already found that using this window as a DND target has a severe
 usability problem

 who found that in what usability test? I must have missed that.

 You missed one of the mails in this thread then. If we use this window
 as a DND target, where should our users drop images when it is not
 there?

I think the remaining question is: when GIMP is not the foreground
application (toolbox and inspectors hidden, as they should) where
can users d+d files apart from on the taskbar icon?

I am thinking about that.

 --ps

 founder + principal interaction architect
 man + machine interface works

 http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture



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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-19 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

On Tue, 2008-02-19 at 19:46 +0100, peter sikking wrote:

 Just like Sven or Mitch cut the crap when users keep discussing things
 that are technically not possible, I have to cut the crap when we keep
 discussing interaction that simply does not make sense.

OK. As long as the result is something that doesn't look like crap and
also appeals to new and occasional users.

 I think the remaining question is: when GIMP is not the foreground
 application (toolbox and inspectors hidden, as they should) where
 can users d+d files apart from on the taskbar icon?

This sounds a lot like the solution will be a lot more complex than the
intermediate that can be implemented for 2.6. Anything that requires
complex interaction with the window manager might take years to
implement as we would most likely have to push quite some changes into
GTK+ and/or get the EWMH specification changed.


Sven


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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-19 Thread buralex
 peter sikking [EMAIL PROTECTED] said on Feb 19, 2008 13:46 -0500 
(in part):

You missed one of the mails in this thread then. If we use this window
 as a DND target, where should our users drop images when it is not
 there?



I think the remaining question is: when GIMP is not the foreground
application (toolbox and inspectors hidden, as they should) where
can users d+d files apart from on the taskbar icon?
I have Windows only experience (not Linux or Mac) so maybe I'm missing 
something here ...


In Windows D'n'D, for a non-visible application works everywhere as 
drag to taskbar button which brings that application to foreground. User 
(still w/o releasing mouse button) then drags to to window which has 
just been brought to foreground and releases.


This works now with current Gimp whether there is an image open or not 
so long as the first bring to foreground is done to the Gimp toolbox window.


So wrt. remaining question: where can users d+d files apart from on the 
taskbar icon? . Why is there any need for anything else? That's how 
Windows user expect ALL applications to behave.


Regards ... Alec -- buralex-gmail
--

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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-19 Thread David Gowers
On Feb 20, 2008 11:07 AM,  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  peter sikking [EMAIL PROTECTED] said on Feb 19, 2008 13:46 -0500 (in
 part):


  You missed one of the mails in this thread then. If we use this window
  as a DND target, where should our users drop images when it is not
  there?

  I think the remaining question is: when GIMP is not the foreground
 application (toolbox and inspectors hidden, as they should) where
 can users d+d files apart from on the taskbar icon?
  I have Windows only experience (not Linux or Mac) so maybe I'm missing
 something here ...

  In Windows D'n'D, for a non-visible application works everywhere as drag
 to taskbar button which brings that application to foreground. User (still
 w/o releasing mouse button) then drags to to window which has just been
 brought to foreground and releases.

  This works now with current Gimp whether there is an image open or not so
 long as the first bring to foreground is done to the Gimp toolbox window.

  So wrt. remaining question: where can users d+d files apart from on the
 taskbar icon? . Why is there any need for anything else? That's how Windows
 user expect ALL applications to behave.
  Regards ... Alec -- buralex-gmail

There is no guarantee that there will be any taskbar at all. On linux,
there are plenty of WM's that either provide a taskbar that is not
suitable to implement your described behaviour, or no taskbar at all (
i use one of these myself, DWM (http://www.suckless.org/wiki/dwm)).
IMO taskbars are a kludge, and it is a mistake for an application to
*depend* on them for basic usability.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-18 Thread Tobias Jakobs
On Feb 18, 2008 8:27 AM, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi,

 On Sun, 2008-02-17 at 05:13 -0200, Guillermo Espertino wrote:

  Anyway, I'd would like to know why common tasks wouldn't fit there

 Yeah, I would also like to know that.

I thin peter explained i in one of the first mails:

the thing to focus here is that GIMP is not going to behave like some
kid yelling (yep, that is what a dialog is): that was fun, what are we
going to do now... I mean now... really now! 

You can see the problem very good, if you start Krita. Krita has such
a yelling start dialog. But I'm not sure if not having common tasks in
the start window is the solution or if we just have to design it more
carefully than Krita.


  And finally... a drag here sign sounds as a gimmick too for me.

 Indeed. In particular since we already found that using this window as a
 DND target has a severe usability problem. Where do you drop images when
 there is already an image opened?


 If you see the window as a DND target has a severe usability problem
every other thing in this window will have the same problem after
opening the first image. This puts us back to an empty window without
any functionality. And that doesn't sounds like a good solution, too.

I've made some mock-ups and I like nr. 5c (with common tasks, like Gez
one) and nr. 6 (DND area). I definitive don't like the nr. 4 (without
any functionality). But this is just the look and not the feel.
http://www.hagemaenner.de/stuff/gimp/PlanB/5c.png
http://www.hagemaenner.de/stuff/gimp/PlanB/6.png
http://www.hagemaenner.de/stuff/gimp/PlanB/4.png

Regards,
Tobias
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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-18 Thread peter sikking
I only have time to write a quick note, so here we go:

Yes, focus on the 'yelling kid' to imagine what kind of interaction
avoid.

Our core users are people who know what they are doing.
They do not need 'help'. GIMP has to avoid trying to be
the boy scout helping the grandma across the busy street,
against their will.

also for you folks to focus on (to understand why I am designing
the solution in this way) is that as soon the last image is closed,
GIMP play from that moment a role in _the_whole_desktop_environment_.

That period can last 1 second, 1 minute, 1 hour, 1 day,
while our users are concentrating on other things.

So we have to be humble but ready for the next action users want
to undertake with GIMP when _they_ want.

avoiding visual clutter is the name of the game here.

Tobias wrote:

 Anyway, I'd would like to know why common tasks wouldn't fit there
 Yeah, I would also like to know that.

 I thin peter explained i in one of the first mails:

 the thing to focus here is that GIMP is not going to behave like some
 kid yelling (yep, that is what a dialog is): that was fun, what  
 are we
 going to do now... I mean now... really now! 

 You can see the problem very good, if you start Krita. Krita has such
 a yelling start dialog. But I'm not sure if not having common tasks in
 the start window is the solution or if we just have to design it more
 carefully than Krita.

very well said Tobias, and I am exploring that.

 And finally... a drag here sign sounds as a gimmick too for me.

 Indeed. In particular since we already found that using this  
 window as a
 DND target has a severe usability problem. Where do you drop  
 images when
 there is already an image opened?

we already found that using this window as a DND target has a severe  
usability problem

who found that in what usability test? I must have missed that.

 If you see the window as a DND target has a severe usability problem
 every other thing in this window will have the same problem after
 opening the first image. This puts us back to an empty window without
 any functionality. And that doesn't sounds like a good solution, too.

 I've made some mock-ups and I like nr. 5c (with common tasks, like Gez
 one) and nr. 6 (DND area). I definitive don't like the nr. 4 (without
 any functionality). But this is just the look and not the feel.
 http://www.hagemaenner.de/stuff/gimp/PlanB/5c.png
 http://www.hagemaenner.de/stuff/gimp/PlanB/6.png
 http://www.hagemaenner.de/stuff/gimp/PlanB/4.png

It is nr.6 that I am developing further. Tobias, thanks for making
the mock-ups.

 --ps

 founder + principal interaction architect
 man + machine interface works

 http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture



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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-18 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

On Mon, 2008-02-18 at 12:21 +0100, Tobias Jakobs wrote:

 You can see the problem very good, if you start Krita. Krita has such
 a yelling start dialog. But I'm not sure if not having common tasks in
 the start window is the solution or if we just have to design it more
 carefully than Krita.

I don't know the Krita start dialog, but I have seen the mockup that
Guillermo has drawn and it doesn't seem to yell at me. Perhaps it could
benefit from a little less content, but overall it looks like a very
nice mockup and it provides exactly the functionality that the user
needs at this point.


Sven


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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-18 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

On Mon, 2008-02-18 at 14:54 +0100, peter sikking wrote:

 Our core users are people who know what they are doing.
 They do not need 'help'.

Yes, they do. This dialog is the first thing people see when starting
GIMP. And a large fraction of our users are beginners. So we have a good
chance hear to give them a helping hand. If we don't do that, this will
most likely be the last time they ever used GIMP.

 we already found that using this window as a DND target has a severe  
 usability problem
 
 who found that in what usability test? I must have missed that.

You missed one of the mails in this thread then. If we use this window
as a DND target, where should our users drop images when it is not
there? That looks like a severe usability problem to me and I don't
think we need run any tests to see this.


Sven


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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-17 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

On Sun, 2008-02-17 at 05:13 -0200, Guillermo Espertino wrote:

 Anyway, I'd would like to know why common tasks wouldn't fit there 

Yeah, I would also like to know that.

 And finally... a drag here sign sounds as a gimmick too for me.

Indeed. In particular since we already found that using this window as a
DND target has a severe usability problem. Where do you drop images when
there is already an image opened?


Sven


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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-16 Thread Guillermo Espertino
Oh... the no gimmicks thing.
Nevermind then...

Gez.

Anyway, I'd would like to know why common tasks wouldn't fit there 
(apart of the usual it sucks).
Create a new image, open an existing image and open a recent file 
are the first things people do with gimp. So why not?
I use drag and drop to open files, but I wouldn't put new image and 
open recent as secondary commands, available only via a menu. Those 
three actions share the same hierarchy, imo.

And finally... a drag here sign sounds as a gimmick too for me.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-16 Thread Guillermo Espertino
Sorry if I'm too late with this reply, but I just came back from my 
vacations.
A couple of months ago I studied this issue and proposed a mockup of an 
introductory window for using when no image is open. 
http://www.blog.ohweb.com.ar/?p=59
Sven explained some of the technical problems of this approach, but 
since the discussion is opened again and there are new ideas, I'd like 
to bring this mockup back for your consideration. I hope you find 
something useful in it.

Regards,
Gez.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-08 Thread peter sikking
Tobias Jakobs wrote:

 I thought about it and I created this mock-up:
 http://hagemaenner.de/stuff/gimp/PlanB/6.png

 In the center of the area I've added a simpel text Drop Images  
 here to
 open them. (Perhaps a native speaker should change the wording.)

I have been moving in the same direction in the last days.

If the main function of the window 'body' under the menu bar
is to have a nice size drag + drop area, let's on its look + feel
for that. As for the size of this window: just wide enough to fit
the menubar for the running localisation,height of the window,
1/4 or 1/3rd of the width, some nice proportion.

Forget about the slider, please. It belonged to another strategy,
another time, another place...

 --ps

 founder + principal interaction architect
 man + machine interface works

 http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture



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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-08 Thread M Gagnon

 I thought about it and I created this mock-up:
 http://hagemaenner.de/stuff/gimp/PlanB/6.png

 In the center of the area I've added a simpel text Drop Images  
 here to
 open them. (Perhaps a native speaker should change the wording.)
 
I really like this image. I think what could make it really good is 
adding to it a toolbar with new and open buttons at its top. I 
understand Peter when he says having the new image and open document 
displayed prominently can get annoying, however having it as icons in a 
toolbar like in most applications do would be a good compromise in my 
opinion
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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-08 Thread David Gowers
Hi Tobias,

I like the simple, functional design of this. Do you know, has what
the toolbox would become, already been resolved? I notice this does
not seem to concern people presently.

On Feb 8, 2008 9:01 AM, Tobias Jakobs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Am Dienstag, den 05.02.2008, 11:26 +0100 schrieb peter sikking:
  GIMPsters,
 
  Let me state that I wrote my first email in this thread because (yes)
  I am struggling what to put there. It is easy for me to make the
  list of gimmicks that not should go in there. Every on of those
  sucks so much... But what is left? The window needs to be there,
  already outlined above the functions it does. So instead of just
  plain bgcolor, let's do something a bit more stylish, without
  drawing any attention to it.
 
 I thought about it and I created this mock-up:
 http://hagemaenner.de/stuff/gimp/PlanB/6.png

 The idea is to use a simple radial gradient from the upper left corner
 to the lower right. (This should be switched for RTL languages.)

 The gradient colours are calculated from the selected forecolour from
 the GTK theme. This way it fits nicely into every desktop environment.

 In the center of the area I've added a simpel text Drop Images here to
 open them. (Perhaps a native speaker should change the wording.)
 This is NOT the Tip of the Day and should NOT change.
 The colour of the text is the brightest colour from the gradient. This
 will give us a nice contrast and it will fit to the theme colours.

   the slider is a dead serious key in the whole experience. to
   seamlessly
   track the mood of users over a a working day (or a hobby night) is
   worth gold in user interaction.
  
   Would you please care to explain this?
 
  I am going to let the slider rest until the window content is sorted
  out.
  Then redesign the whole package so it all fits together...
 
 I don't get you slider idea. But if you think about a small timewaster
 what do you think about adding a colour slider to my mock-up?

 Regards,
 Tobias


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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-08 Thread Liam R E Quin
On Fri, 2008-02-08 at 19:12 +0100, peter sikking wrote:
 Tobias Jakobs wrote:
 
  I thought about it and I created this mock-up:
  http://hagemaenner.de/stuff/gimp/PlanB/6.png

[...]

 I have been moving in the same direction in the last days.
 
 If the main function of the window 'body' under the menu bar
 is to have a nice size drag + drop area, let's on its look + feel
 for that. As for the size of this window: just wide enough to fit
 the menubar for the running localisation,height of the window,
 1/4 or 1/3rd of the width, some nice proportion.

Perhaps it could contain an icon for each active image, so that
left-clicking on the image would bring the image window and any
associated pallettes or whatever to the front, and right-clicking
(or the reverse for left-handed people) would give an image-specifc
context menu as one would expect, either with close, save a copy,
save as, revert, properties or the same menu as clicking on the image.

If you make the area useful (drop an image...) and then when the image
is dropped, that area and message are replaced by the image, it's no
longer clear how to open a second image.  The obvious way would be to
drop it in the same place, but that wouldn't work, it would add a layer.

So then you need a visible drop target...

One solution would be that opening an image makes also a new empty image
window to drop things in but that's absurd.

Another (better I think) would be to have a drop target pallette
area/window, that could be docked.

None of this really helps the window with no image for beginners
question though.

Liam


-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org
 

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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-07 Thread Tobias Jakobs

Am Dienstag, den 05.02.2008, 11:26 +0100 schrieb peter sikking:
 GIMPsters,
 
 Let me state that I wrote my first email in this thread because (yes)
 I am struggling what to put there. It is easy for me to make the
 list of gimmicks that not should go in there. Every on of those
 sucks so much... But what is left? The window needs to be there,
 already outlined above the functions it does. So instead of just
 plain bgcolor, let's do something a bit more stylish, without
 drawing any attention to it.
 
I thought about it and I created this mock-up:
http://hagemaenner.de/stuff/gimp/PlanB/6.png

The idea is to use a simple radial gradient from the upper left corner 
to the lower right. (This should be switched for RTL languages.)

The gradient colours are calculated from the selected forecolour from
the GTK theme. This way it fits nicely into every desktop environment.

In the center of the area I've added a simpel text Drop Images here to
open them. (Perhaps a native speaker should change the wording.)
This is NOT the Tip of the Day and should NOT change.
The colour of the text is the brightest colour from the gradient. This
will give us a nice contrast and it will fit to the theme colours.

  the slider is a dead serious key in the whole experience. to  
  seamlessly
  track the mood of users over a a working day (or a hobby night) is
  worth gold in user interaction.
 
  Would you please care to explain this?
 
 I am going to let the slider rest until the window content is sorted  
 out.
 Then redesign the whole package so it all fits together...
 
I don't get you slider idea. But if you think about a small timewaster
what do you think about adding a colour slider to my mock-up?

Regards,
Tobias

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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-05 Thread Alexandre Prokoudine
On Feb 4, 2008 11:14 PM, Sven Neumann wrote:

 in the window. Useful content means GTK+ widgets. And we can't (yet)
 make GTK+ widgets translucent.

Are you 100% sure?

http://www.breakitdownblog.com/gnome-murrine-theme-gets-transparent-widgets/

Alexandre
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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-05 Thread peter sikking
GIMPsters,

I am very busy, so I am going to weed out the actual contributions of
y'all and respond to that:

Sven wrote:

 We absolutely need to find a solution here that works for everyone.

very well said. that's why the gimmicks section is in the spec.

Thorsten raised a good point about the actual geometry of the
'no image' window. Of course this window is a nice drag and drop
target for all those workflows that go to other apps of filebrowsers
to open the next file or files. SO window not to small, not too
obnoxious. Got me thinking again about always going to the minimal
size when last image is closed. cool.

Thorsten wrote:

 The opposite side of what are we going to do now would be see  
 how you

 get along, I will not raise a finger to help you.

Hmmm, menu commands, drag and drop on window and taskbar icon, menu
shortcuts. A nice size window to find back in the window stack.

saul wrote:

 The no image window should have a status line, as this provides
 useful feedback with regard to the hover-over hints of the menu
 commands.

Good point. But then I realised which menu items would be available  
at all.
Still thinking about this one.

Bill wrote:

 If the user closes the final image by clicking the X in
 the upper right corner of the window, we must close that window or we
 violate a fundamental rule of window handling.

Another good point to think about carefully. I evaluated both  
possibilities
and in my minds eye leaving the window open is more elegant,
less rupture.

Sven wrote:

 I am talking about
 making some stuff transparent against a window background, hardly
 rocket science for GIMP...

 Even if this was possible, I still fail to see why this would be  
 useful.
 To be honest, I am completely baffled to hear such a thing proposed  
 from
 a user interface professional. What exactly, except for eye candy, is
 the purpose of this?

Let me state that I wrote my first email in this thread because (yes)
I am struggling what to put there. It is easy for me to make the
list of gimmicks that not should go in there. Every on of those
sucks so much... But what is left? The window needs to be there,
already outlined above the functions it does. So instead of just
plain bgcolor, let's do something a bit more stylish, without
drawing any attention to it.

Seriously, I would like to hear contributions here what to do
(read the gimmick list first:
http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/No_image_open_specification#no_gimmicks)

 the slider is a dead serious key in the whole experience. to  
 seamlessly
 track the mood of users over a a working day (or a hobby night) is
 worth gold in user interaction.

 Would you please care to explain this?

I am going to let the slider rest until the window content is sorted  
out.
Then redesign the whole package so it all fits together...

Alexandre wrote:
 And we can't (yet) make GTK+ widgets translucent.
 Are you 100% sure?

 http://www.breakitdownblog.com/gnome-murrine-theme-gets-transparent- 
 widgets/

that is cool (but not for this UI design). I would like to know
how universally (all linux WMs, windoze, OS-X) that can be rolled out...

 --ps

 founder + principal interaction architect
 man + machine interface works

 http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture



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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-05 Thread Alexandre Prokoudine
On Feb 5, 2008 1:26 PM, peter sikking wrote:

  And we can't (yet) make GTK+ widgets translucent.
  Are you 100% sure?
 
  http://www.breakitdownblog.com/gnome-murrine-theme-gets-transparent-
  widgets/

 that is cool (but not for this UI design). I would like to know
 how universally (all linux WMs, windoze, OS-X) that can be rolled out...

Murrine's developer writes in his blog: Then you need... a composite
capable window-manager, like Compiz, future Metacity etc etc…

I'm not quite sure about usefulness of transparence in a graphics
editor (unless it's transparence of layers/selections/objects in a
drawing). Sounds like distraction to me (and yes - I remember your
argument on Aperture :-))

Alexandre
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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-05 Thread Alexander Rabtchevich
peter sikking wrote:
 Alexandre wrote:

 And we can't (yet) make GTK+ widgets translucent.

 Are you 100% sure?

 http://www.breakitdownblog.com/gnome-murrine-theme-gets-transparent-
 widgets/
  

 that is cool (but not for this UI design). I would like to know
 how universally (all linux WMs, windoze, OS-X) that can be rolled out...


Sorry, but what is the use case for transparent image window? It is 
rather contrary to the idea of the dark room. The only thing I can 
imagine is a lazy :) user who doesn't want to make a screenshot of a 
window of some other program and put it to a new lower layer to be used 
as some base background.

-- 
With respect
Alexander Rabtchevich

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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-05 Thread David Gowers
Alexandre,

What Peter describes does not involve transparent windows.
I agree it does not seem useful, in sense of literal opacity.. Rather,
 a waterlevel-type adjustment could suit this idea better..with
 widgets appearing or disappearing according to whether they are
above waterlevel. It's important in this case that disappearance or
appearance should not change widget positions or sizes-- the widgets
should not be repacked after the initial packing..

(well, we could consider, if needed, more specific instances of a
general kind of action that could, at one level, have a widget for the
general operation, and then as the waterlevel drops, be replaced in
the same space by several widgets that are the more specific
instances.)

On Feb 5, 2008 9:17 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Feb 5, 2008 1:26 PM, peter sikking wrote:

   And we can't (yet) make GTK+ widgets translucent.
   Are you 100% sure?
  
   http://www.breakitdownblog.com/gnome-murrine-theme-gets-transparent-
   widgets/
 
  that is cool (but not for this UI design). I would like to know
  how universally (all linux WMs, windoze, OS-X) that can be rolled out...

 Murrine's developer writes in his blog: Then you need... a composite
 capable window-manager, like Compiz, future Metacity etc etc…

 I'm not quite sure about usefulness of transparence in a graphics
 editor (unless it's transparence of layers/selections/objects in a
 drawing). Sounds like distraction to me (and yes - I remember your
 argument on Aperture :-))

 Alexandre

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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-05 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 12:07 +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
  in the window. Useful content means GTK+ widgets. And we can't (yet)
  make GTK+ widgets translucent.
 
 Are you 100% sure?
 
 http://www.breakitdownblog.com/gnome-murrine-theme-gets-transparent-widgets/

Yes, I am. What your links shows is something entirely different.


Sven


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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-04 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 01:35 +0100, peter sikking wrote:

 4) a plugin system for this window; we ship a standard, good one like
 above. If somebody really insists he or she wants to see a file
 open dialog every time or the 10 last edited pictures (both not very
 good ideas to force upon one million users) then let them write a plugin
 to do that.

We certainly don't have so much developer time at hand to design,
implement and maintain a plug-in system to add gimmicks to this window.
We absolutely need to find a solution here that works for everyone.
Delegating this question to a plug-in system is not going to work here.


Sven


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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-04 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 01:35 +0100, peter sikking wrote:

 and oh, note that the slider to set the alpha of what goes on in that
 window will be there anyway...

This is not currently implementable, so I would rather not base the spec
on this opacity slider.

I also very much wonder why the window should have something as useless
as a slider to control the visual appearance but lack any useful widgets
to give people quick access to the things they will most likely do next.
What's wrong about a link to the recently used images and to the New
image dialog?


Sven


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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-04 Thread Thorsten Wilms
On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 09:01 +0100, Sven Neumann wrote:

 I also very much wonder why the window should have something as useless
 as a slider to control the visual appearance but lack any useful widgets
 to give people quick access to the things they will most likely do next.
 What's wrong about a link to the recently used images and to the New
 image dialog?

Same here.

I think such a slider would be a waste of both developer and user time
(a _million_ users wondering: ooh, what does this slider do? ... to
never touch it again ;)

Reasons against having Recent/New in the window:
- visual noise
- both are in the file menu already and duplication would lessen
consistency in interaction / work against habituation.

But then I would prefer a window as narrow as possible, not much more
than just a title and a menu bar. Any image would get old soon and
putting effort into exchanging it frequently would be wasted.

Reasons for having Recent/New in the window:
- fast access to the only 2 things a user might want to do (well,
there's also accessing preferences)
- avoiding a mostly empty window which will trigger uncountable
complaints through all eternity ;)

The audio application Ardour has a startup dialog with New and Open
Recent tabs. The dialog has its issues, but feels very useful. I never
use a file manager to open a project there. For GIMP, it should be
possible to have New and Recent side by side.


-- 
Thorsten Wilms

thorwil's design for free software:
http://thorwil.wordpress.com/

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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-04 Thread peter sikking
Sven wrote:

 On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 01:35 +0100, peter sikking wrote:

 and oh, note that the slider to set the alpha of what goes on in that
 window will be there anyway...

 This is not currently implementable, so I would rather not base the  
 spec
 on this opacity slider.

just to clarify: are you assuming that the whole window will become
transparent and the desktop shines through? I am talking about
making some stuff transparent against a window background, hardly
rocket science for GIMP...

 I also very much wonder why the window should have something as  
 useless
 as a slider to control the visual appearance

the slider is a dead serious key in the whole experience. to seamlessly
track the mood of users over a a working day (or a hobby night) is
worth gold in user interaction.

 but lack any useful widgets
 to give people quick access to the things they will most likely do  
 next.
 What's wrong about a link to the recently used images and to the New
 image dialog?

the thing to focus here is that GIMP is not going to behave like some  
kid
yelling (yep, that is what a dialog is): that was fun, what are we  
going
to do now... I mean now... really now!

as long as we understand that, you will be able to understand the
crucial decisions that I take here.

 --ps

 founder + principal interaction architect
 man + machine interface works

 http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture

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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-04 Thread Thorsten Wilms
On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 10:48 +0100, peter sikking wrote:

 the slider is a dead serious key in the whole experience. to seamlessly
 track the mood of users over a a working day (or a hobby night) is
 worth gold in user interaction.

You seem to assume that
- users will adjust the slider repeatedly
- this adjustment somehow reflects their mood (not just lighting
conditions from day to night or whatever)

I mean to recall that the product vision stresses serious, professional
level work. I don't see how playing with such a slider is compatible
with a getting-stuff-done mentality. I very strongly doubt that users
would adjust it repeatedly, anyway.

Then, even if they do: what does it tell us about their mood and what
would we do with that information?


 the thing to focus here is that GIMP is not going to behave like
 some  
 kid
 yelling (yep, that is what a dialog is): that was fun, what are we  
 going
 to do now... I mean now... really now!
 
 as long as we understand that, you will be able to understand the
 crucial decisions that I take here.

I fail to see how a full size window that is basically empty regarding
its informational and interaction aspects could be a good thing. It
manages to cover part of the desktop or other windows and distracts from
the then only useful bit, the menu. Seen this way, your wallpaper window
would yell, too, but it'd be: BLAH!

The opposite side of what are we going to do now would be see how you
get along, I will not raise a finger to help you.


-- 
Thorsten Wilms

thorwil's design for free software:
http://thorwil.wordpress.com/

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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-04 Thread saulgoode
The no image window should have a status line, as this provides  
useful feedback with regard to the hover-over hints of the menu  
commands.







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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-04 Thread Bill Skaggs
Actually, if  plug-in means something like a fill pattern that could
be user-specified in the same way as the splash screen, I think it
would be possible to implement everything Peter has specified here --
including the opacity slider -- using the scratch image framework
I've been experimenting with.

There is one aspect of this specification that seems problematic to
me, though.  If the user closes the final image by clicking the X in
the upper right corner of the window, we must close that window or we
violate a fundamental rule of window handling.  We can create a new
window if we feel the need to, but we must close the original window.

  -- Bill
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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-04 Thread Alchemie foto\grafiche
I get the sensation that often most trivial solution are overlooked, only 
because are trivial, even if simple things often work better

Users, ( i state as users not as expert of usability) just are used to see 
graphic sw open with a image windows...i don't thing they will appreciate a 
special image windows with sliders or peculiar setting.

They will appreciate something trivial as gimp opening with a image windows, 
inside simply a new image,color white, type RGBA, of a default size (something 
as 600x600 should fit, aside to the toolbox in most of computer screen 
,included little as 800x600)

That and , for the first time only, a dialog popped up prompting

1 to accept that size
or
1 to reset that default size as from users wish


OR

3 instead then a blank image start with the last image opened

And a short info at end of dialogif the user want change again that 
default, he may do from Toolbox/preference.

That in my opinion and experience as users will solve at best

Honestly i can't image any advantage, or anything useful, or even funny in 
that proposed  additional Transparency slider .

On the contrary i see a related usability problem, if something as that will be 
done:

Users will think that the slider effect may is also rendered in the saved image

More if they will forget to reset the slider, they will be easy misleaded.by a 
effect that is visible, but will be never rendered, (if not by a screenshoot)


Alchemie Foto\grafiche
   
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Re: [Gimp-developer] no image open spec...

2008-02-04 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 10:48 +0100, peter sikking wrote:

 just to clarify: are you assuming that the whole window will become
 transparent and the desktop shines through?

No. That would be implementable as there's GTK+ API to do that (though
not supported on all platforms).

 I am talking about
 making some stuff transparent against a window background, hardly
 rocket science for GIMP...

There's no GTK+ API to do this (yet). Of course if all we have in the
window is a background image, then we could make the window background
shine through. But I still assume that we will have some useful content
in the window. Useful content means GTK+ widgets. And we can't (yet)
make GTK+ widgets translucent.

Even if this was possible, I still fail to see why this would be useful.
To be honest, I am completely baffled to hear such a thing proposed from
a user interface professional. What exactly, except for eye candy, is
the purpose of this?

 the slider is a dead serious key in the whole experience. to seamlessly
 track the mood of users over a a working day (or a hobby night) is
 worth gold in user interaction.

Would you please care to explain this?


Sven


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