Re: [Gimp-developer] reporting bugs on builds

2004-05-09 Thread David Neary
Hi,

Henrik Brix Andersen wrote:
 in GNOME Bugzilla. The GIMP developers have no way of fixing a bug even
 if they know how it should be done.

Personally I consider anyone who contributes their time to
furthering the GIMP (including Jernej) a GIMP Developer.

 But seeing the waste amount of bugs filed primarily for win32 installers
 since we released 2.0.0 I am slowly starting to change my mind. Perhaps
 a '3rd party installer' or similar component should be added to the GIMP
 product. Bugs can then be re-assigned to that component instead of being
 resolved NOTGNOME.

So - will I create the Windows-installer component with Jernej and
the module owner?

Cheers,
Dave.

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Re: [Gimp-developer] reporting bugs on builds

2004-05-08 Thread Henrik Brix Andersen
Hi,

On Sat, 2004-05-08 at 01:49, Sven Neumann wrote:
 Simon Budig [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  What about a component installers or binary packages where we
  can put the bugs that are related to a certain gimp distribution?
 
 If the maintainers of the installers or binary packages agree to
 watch bugzilla for their bugs then that's probably the best we can do.

This would be a prerequisite for tracking any installer related bugs in
GNOME Bugzilla, imho.

Regards,
Brix
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Re: [Gimp-developer] reporting bugs on builds

2004-05-08 Thread Henrik Brix Andersen
Hi,

On Fri, 2004-05-07 at 17:50, Sven Neumann wrote:
 Because we can't do anything about the bugs. Nobody but the packager
 can. The situation would be different if the tools used to build the
 binary packages would be in GNOME CVS. That would certainly qualify
 the project for also using the bug tracker. But as long as people
 build GIMP using proprietary scripts that they don't publish anywhere,
 I am going to show no tolerance towards them.

This was also my main argument against tracking any 3rd party installers
in GNOME Bugzilla. The GIMP developers have no way of fixing a bug even
if they know how it should be done.

But seeing the waste amount of bugs filed primarily for win32 installers
since we released 2.0.0 I am slowly starting to change my mind. Perhaps
a '3rd party installer' or similar component should be added to the GIMP
product. Bugs can then be re-assigned to that component instead of being
resolved NOTGNOME.

At least I think we should try it out and see how it works out.

Regards,
Brix
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Re: [Gimp-developer] reporting bugs on builds

2004-05-08 Thread Michael Schumacher
Henrik Brix Andersen wrote:
Hi,

On Fri, 2004-05-07 at 17:50, Sven Neumann wrote:

Because we can't do anything about the bugs. Nobody but the packager
can. The situation would be different if the tools used to build the
binary packages would be in GNOME CVS. That would certainly qualify
the project for also using the bug tracker. But as long as people
build GIMP using proprietary scripts that they don't publish anywhere,
I am going to show no tolerance towards them.


This was also my main argument against tracking any 3rd party installers
in GNOME Bugzilla. The GIMP developers have no way of fixing a bug even
if they know how it should be done.
Maybe a requirement for tracking installers should be that the author 
has to create a comprehensive list of the components of the installer, 
including version numbers and the locations he got the components from.
Additionally, a list of changes (installed files, registry keys, ...) 
done to the system could help, too.

But seeing the waste amount of bugs filed primarily for win32 installers
since we released 2.0.0 I am slowly starting to change my mind. Perhaps
a '3rd party installer' or similar component should be added to the GIMP
product. Bugs can then be re-assigned to that component instead of being
resolved NOTGNOME.
Um, don't you mix two things here? Of course, users who report bugs are 
using gimp binaries they got from somewhere. the huge amount of 
duplicated reports has other reasons.

IMHO, reporting bugs in bugzilla without checking for duplicates is too 
easy, maybe all similiar reports should be displayed one after another 
and the user should have to click a next button.

At least I think we should try it out and see how it works out.
I agree.

Michael

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Re: [Gimp-developer] reporting bugs on builds

2004-05-07 Thread Dave Neary
Hi,

Branko Collin wrote:
However, anyone who uses a pre-compiled build cannot know beforehand 
what part of the bugs are build related, and what part GIMP related. 
Especially MS Windows users, who may not (and should not!) have a 
concept of build versus source distribution to begin with, may find 
it difficult to make the distinction.

Would it be useful to devise a system in which all users can file 
GIMP related bug reports, whether they have bearing only on the build 
they are using or on all of the GIMP?
I definitely agree with that.

The correct thing to do with bugs reported against the installer is, IMHO, to 
add jernej as a CC, set the component to Win32, and then leave it alone, and 
open. That way, Jernej can use our bug tracker, perhaps teach us a thing or two 
about windows along the way, and neither he nor our windows users feel like they 
aren't considered good enough to be in the GIMP crowd.

Jernej's installers are a great service, and if we don't want him to stop (and I 
know I don't), and bit more tolerance is called for. Currently, we don't even 
tell people how they should report bugs against the installer, the bugs are just 
closed NOTGNOME.

Of course, this would put the burden of triage on the GIMP developers 
who are currently doing that, but it might avoid reporters being 
scared away by curt WONTFIX replies.
These bugs are already being triaged as RESOLVED NOTGNOME. Changing the 
component, adding a CC and leaving the bug open takes as much time, and is a lot 
friendlier.

Cheers,
Dave.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] reporting bugs on builds

2004-05-07 Thread Simon Budig
Dave Neary ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 Jernej's installers are a great service, and if we don't want him to stop 
 (and I know I don't), and bit more tolerance is called for. Currently, we 
 don't even tell people how they should report bugs against the installer, 
 the bugs are just closed NOTGNOME.

What about a component installers or binary packages where we
can put the bugs that are related to a certain gimp distribution?

From time to time we'd have to clean it up so that the bug count doesn't
get out of control, but IMHO bugzilla might very well be the place to
track these kind of external bugs.

Bye,
   Simon

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Re: [Gimp-developer] reporting bugs on builds

2004-05-07 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Branko Collin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Of course, this would put the burden of triage on the GIMP developers 
 who are currently doing that, but it might avoid reporters being 
 scared away by curt WONTFIX replies.

The reply is NOTGNOME and we usually ask the bug reporter to get in
contact with Jernej or whoever built the binary package and report the
problem there. IMO it's up to Jernej or whoever builds the binaries to
setup a bug-tracker for it and to inform users that build problems
should be reported there.  That's what all other packagers of GIMP do
as well. It certainly doesn't belong into GNOME Bugzilla.


Sven

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Re: [Gimp-developer] reporting bugs on builds

2004-05-07 Thread Dave Neary
Hi,

Simon Budig wrote:
What about a component installers or binary packages where we
can put the bugs that are related to a certain gimp distribution?
Sure, I could do this. I'll wait to see what the feedback on this thread is first.

Dave.



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Re: [Gimp-developer] reporting bugs on builds

2004-05-07 Thread Dave Neary
Hi,

Sven Neumann wrote:
Branko Collin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Of course, this would put the burden of triage on the GIMP developers 
who are currently doing that, but it might avoid reporters being 
scared away by curt WONTFIX replies.
The reply is NOTGNOME and we usually ask the bug reporter to get in
contact with Jernej or whoever built the binary package and report the
problem there. 
By we, you mean I, don't you? And today that hasn't happened at least once, 
the reply was simply Your bug report is about the installer then and thus
does not belong into this bug-tracker.

IMO it's up to Jernej or whoever builds the binaries to
setup a bug-tracker for it and to inform users that build problems
should be reported there.  That's what all other packagers of GIMP do
as well. It certainly doesn't belong into GNOME Bugzilla.
All the other packagers of the GIMP make money from it, and employ people to 
do this type of thing, and have dedicated machines. Jernej makes binaries in his 
spare time, and the least we could do is show a little tolerance on this issue.

I don't see why bugs like these certainly don't beling in GNOME Bugzilla. It 
would be nice if you could explain why this is so obviously true.

Cheers,
Dave.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] reporting bugs on builds

2004-05-07 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 By we, you mean I, don't you? And today that hasn't happened at
 least once, the reply was simply Your bug report is about the
 installer then and thus does not belong into this bug-tracker.

Well, I knew that I was dealing with Branko, who should know
better. The response is different when innocent users hit bugzilla.

 All the other packagers of the GIMP make money from it, and employ
 people to do this type of thing, and have dedicated machines. Jernej
 makes binaries in his spare time, and the least we could do is show
 a little tolerance on this issue.

I am not opposed against helping Jernej with this if he asks for
help. But I don't see why he should be treated differently in the
first place.

 I don't see why bugs like these certainly don't beling in GNOME
 Bugzilla. It would be nice if you could explain why this is so
 obviously true.

Because we can't do anything about the bugs. Nobody but the packager
can. The situation would be different if the tools used to build the
binary packages would be in GNOME CVS. That would certainly qualify
the project for also using the bug tracker. But as long as people
build GIMP using proprietary scripts that they don't publish anywhere,
I am going to show no tolerance towards them.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] reporting bugs on builds

2004-05-07 Thread Branko Collin
On 7 May 2004, at 17:50, Sven Neumann wrote:
 Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  By we, you mean I, don't you? And today that hasn't happened at
  least once, the reply was simply Your bug report is about the
  installer then and thus does not belong into this bug-tracker.
 
 Well, I knew that I was dealing with Branko, who should know
 better. The response is different when innocent users hit bugzilla.

That I should know better is true but for one thing, and also it is 
not a good argument in its own right.

I should know better when I am absolutely certain that a bug is 
purely restricted to a certain build. Without using a certain GIMP 
version in at least two different incarnations, I cannot tell with 
100% certainty that some bug is strictly related to a certain build. 

Also, 'dealing with Branko' is not a concept known to 'innocent 
users' who stumble on your comments when searching for existing 
reports for their bugs, and may conclude that this is how you talk to 
everybody. You could have used e-mail to tell me that I should know 
better.

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Re: [Gimp-developer] reporting bugs on builds

2004-05-07 Thread Michael Schumacher
Dave Neary wrote:

 Sven Neumann wrote:
  Branko Collin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Of course, this would put the burden of triage on the GIMP developers 
 who are currently doing that, but it might avoid reporters being 
 scared away by curt WONTFIX replies.
  
  The reply is NOTGNOME and we usually ask the bug reporter to get in
  contact with Jernej or whoever built the binary package and report the
  problem there. 
 
 By we, you mean I, don't you? And today that hasn't happened at least
 once, the reply was simply Your bug report is about the installer 
 then and thus does not belong into this bug-tracker.

Well, you can't prevent anyone from reporting bugs, but the quality of the
replies can be improved. Is it possible to have some kind of canned
replies in bugzilla? So that when resolving a bug against e.g. the win32
installer as NOTGNOME, an explantory text is just one click away?
 
  IMO it's up to Jernej or whoever builds the binaries to
  setup a bug-tracker for it and to inform users that build problems
  should be reported there.  That's what all other packagers of GIMP do
  as well. It certainly doesn't belong into GNOME Bugzilla.
 
 All the other packagers of the GIMP make money from it, and employ
 people to do this type of thing, and have dedicated machines. 
 Jernej makes binaries in his spare time, and the least we could 
 do is show a little tolerance on this issue.

I'm not sure if I agree or not, but I'd like to see some requirements tied
to featuring installers in bugzilla. This isn't directed against anyone
directly, but a clear set of rules should be created. Do you want e.g.
WinGIMP or MacGIMP to use bugzilla.gnome.org? What about other Free win32
installers of GIMP? 
 
 I don't see why bugs like these certainly don't beling in GNOME Bugzilla.
 It would be nice if you could explain why this is so obviously true.

If you think that Sven wrongly resolved bugs as NOTGNOME, please list them.
Then it would be possible to discuss the sepcific cases.


Michael

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Re: [Gimp-developer] reporting bugs on builds

2004-05-07 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Simon Budig [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Dave Neary ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  Jernej's installers are a great service, and if we don't want him to stop 
  (and I know I don't), and bit more tolerance is called for. Currently, we 
  don't even tell people how they should report bugs against the installer, 
  the bugs are just closed NOTGNOME.
 
 What about a component installers or binary packages where we
 can put the bugs that are related to a certain gimp distribution?

If the maintainers of the installers or binary packages agree to
watch bugzilla for their bugs then that's probably the best we can do.


Sven

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