Re: [Gimp-developer] roadmap items from the UI team...
Sven wrote: On Thu, 2007-11-08 at 00:06 +0100, peter sikking wrote: Where we are back at the point where this is not likely going to be ever possible on all supported platforms using the toolkit that we use and will continue to use. I am used to development teams telling me 'can't do that', but I am not used to them refusing to sit down with me to find a work around solution. We aren't refusing to find a work around solution. But so far we only talked about the short-term plans and we have not sat down at all to talk about the long-term goals for the user interface. Perhaps we should do that before we put these things on our roadmap. So for now it is probably best if we concentrate on the short-term goals that we agreed on and that can be implemented. Perhaps we can discuss the long-term GIMP UI vision at the next LGM then. fair enough. I am also uncomfortable with the fact of having to convince people of putting on the roadmap rather deep-going paradigm changing solutions without writing first a couple of white-paper type of blog entries where I show how all this stuff hangs together in a deep, complicated way. --ps founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] roadmap items from the UI team...
Hi, On Thu, 2007-11-08 at 00:06 +0100, peter sikking wrote: Where we are back at the point where this is not likely going to be ever possible on all supported platforms using the toolkit that we use and will continue to use. I am used to development teams telling me 'can't do that', but I am not used to them refusing to sit down with me to find a work around solution. We aren't refusing to find a work around solution. But so far we only talked about the short-term plans and we have not sat down at all to talk about the long-term goals for the user interface. Perhaps we should do that before we put these things on our roadmap. So for now it is probably best if we concentrate on the short-term goals that we agreed on and that can be implemented. Perhaps we can discuss the long-term GIMP UI vision at the next LGM then. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] roadmap items from the UI team...
On 07/11/2007, Alexandre Prokoudine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 7, 2007 2:40 AM, peter sikking wrote: and something about text (layers), that is not so trivial in the UI btw, text, svg and other vector stuff need their own stacking order within a layer and if you want to avoid the question are they above or in the layer pixels, then they need their own layer type. We already have initial implementation of vector layers here: http://svn.gnome.org/viewvc/gimp/branches/soc-2006-vector-layers/ It's worth noting that that code only supports one shape per layer (there were usability concerns with multiple shapes per layer). After we have layer groups this shouldn't be much of a problem, no? Henk Boom ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] roadmap items from the UI team...
Hi, On Wed, 2007-11-07 at 00:40 +0100, peter sikking wrote: * solve user request #1, part 1: one menu bar, keep window with menu bar open when no image is open, true floating inspectors, transparency where inspectors overlap the image (found a way how it can be faked); I don't think that true floating inspectors are implementable at all. But perhaps you need to explain first what true floating means. I wouldn't like to put something on the roadmap that we can't solve for technical reasons. Transparency is not a problem on the platforms where it is supported and we can easily enable this in trunk right away since we are using GTK+ 2.12 there. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] roadmap items from the UI team...
Sven wrote: * solve user request #1, part 1: one menu bar, keep window with menu bar open when no image is open, true floating inspectors, transparency where inspectors overlap the image (found a way how it can be faked); I don't think that true floating inspectors are implementable at all. But perhaps you need to explain first what true floating means. let's see: always on top of any normal window, but under menus and dialogs; does not appear in taskbar; not visible when GIMP is not the foreground application. that is the mandatory bit, I think. I wouldn't like to put something on the roadmap that we can't solve for technical reasons. I was getting more positive because you were talking in optimistic terms about when 'always a window with menu bar' would be implemented. are we now back to 'you'll have to patch all window managers to do that'? Transparency is not a problem on the platforms where it is supported and we can easily enable this in trunk right away since we are using GTK+ 2.12 there. I get the feeling that all is not rosy there, but at least I know that I can always work around that... --ps founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] roadmap items from the UI team...
On Nov 7, 2007 2:40 AM, peter sikking wrote: and something about text (layers), that is not so trivial in the UI btw, text, svg and other vector stuff need their own stacking order within a layer and if you want to avoid the question are they above or in the layer pixels, then they need their own layer type. We already have initial implementation of vector layers here: http://svn.gnome.org/viewvc/gimp/branches/soc-2006-vector-layers/ true floating inspectors, transparency where inspectors overlap the image (found a way how it can be faked); I'm not sure this is the right time and place to argue, but from my experience using Paint.Net, which has this functionality, transparent palettes will absolutely useless and even annoying, if #362915 won't be implemented. They will just show content beneath, but won't let access it. Alexandre ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] roadmap items from the UI team...
Hi, On Wed, 2007-11-07 at 11:47 +0100, peter sikking wrote: I don't think that true floating inspectors are implementable at all. But perhaps you need to explain first what true floating means. let's see: always on top of any normal window, but under menus and dialogs; does not appear in taskbar; not visible when GIMP is not the foreground application. that is the mandatory bit, I think. All we can do is to set the utility window hint then and hope that the window manager will interpret it the way you describe. As far as I know, this hint doesn't have any effect on Windows or Mac OS X. But perhaps this could be addressed on the GDK level. We would have to make sure then that this is improved with GTK+ 2.14. I was getting more positive because you were talking in optimistic terms about when 'always a window with menu bar' would be implemented. are we now back to 'you'll have to patch all window managers to do that'? We can always have a window with menu bar without also implementing true floating inspectors. It would allow us to get a unified menu and on some platforms / window managers the true floating inspectors thing could actually work. I wouldn't want to put it on the roadmap though. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] roadmap items from the UI team...
Hi, On Wed, 2007-11-07 at 16:22 +0100, peter sikking wrote: well, obviously where one works with colors in the inspector that part is either never or on mouse-over not going to be transparent. Where we are back at the point where this is not likely going to be ever possible on all supported platforms using the toolkit that we use and will continue to use. It would probably help if your team seeked for less drastic changes. That would have the benefit that they might really be implemented one day. I really don't want to show users mockups of stuff that they will never receive. Perhaps we should concentrate on 2.6 for now... Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] roadmap items from the UI team...
Sven Neumann wrote: Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: I'm not sure this is the right time and place to argue, but from my experience using Paint.Net, which has this functionality, transparent palettes will absolutely useless and even annoying. I agree. Transparency will be distracting. counter example: Aperture. it is all about using the right gray and alpha values. The really fat bonus of implementing this is that users get the impression (and associated speed-up in workflow) of being able to see the image on the whole screen. Even if part of the real precision work can only be performed in uncovered areas like now. Also, because the toolbox and inspectors are still visible, there is no penalty in how quick a click in either can be performed (this is the case for hiding minimising toolbox and inspectors). As it causes wrong color appearance, it is IMO a very bad thing to do in a user interface that is made for working with colors. well, obviously where one works with colors in the inspector that part is either never or on mouse-over not going to be transparent. --ps founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] roadmap items from the UI team...
Hi, On Wed, 2007-11-07 at 13:56 +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: I'm not sure this is the right time and place to argue, but from my experience using Paint.Net, which has this functionality, transparent palettes will absolutely useless and even annoying. I agree. Transparency will be distracting. As it causes wrong color appearance, it is IMO a very bad thing to do in a user interface that is made for working with colors. if #362915 won't be implemented. That bug is not related, actually. But it should be fixed for 2.6. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] roadmap items from the UI team...
Sven Neumann wrote: well, obviously where one works with colors in the inspector that part is either never or on mouse-over not going to be transparent. Where we are back at the point where this is not likely going to be ever possible on all supported platforms using the toolkit that we use and will continue to use. I am used to development teams telling me 'can't do that', but I am not used to them refusing to sit down with me to find a work around solution. It would probably help if your team seeked for less drastic changes. That would have the benefit that they might really be implemented one day. I really don't want to show users mockups of stuff that they will never receive. I tend to get 90% results in the projects I work on by setting 100% goals and working with the developers after they tell me we can only achieve 40%. That's how it goes for the last 10 years... --ps founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
