Re: Toolbox layout and Help menu

2000-02-13 Thread Kelly Lynn Martin

On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:05:42 -0500 (EST), Glyph Lefkowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
said:

It seems like this is really the only reasonable option -- I think
that there should be a 'menu' spot in the tools, like the top-left
menu in the image windows, since the toolbar is frequently too thin
for the menus anyway (vertical layout, try using a large font in your
gtk theme sometime...) and if it's not (horizontal layout), then the
menubar is taking up far too much screen real estate for no reason.

It would not be hard to add a "button" that pops up the menus.  People 
would probably go "Where the hell is the menu?" if we did that,
though.

Kelly



Re: Toolbox layout and Help menu (again)

2000-02-11 Thread Sven Neumann

 Just to clarify, in my prev msg when refering to the selectors I was
 refering to the pattern/gradient/brush one

... which can be turned off via a preferences option already,



Salut, Sven






Re: Toolbox layout and Help menu

2000-02-11 Thread Raphael Quinet

On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I'd vote for the following solution: Completely get rid of the interactive
 resizing (since it obviously can't be fixed to work correctly) and offer 
 two alternative layouts (as described above) which are switchable from the 
 preferences dialog. The horizontal layout would have a Help menu and probably
 even a Dialogs menu, while the vertical layout would add these as entries to 
 the File menu (or probably Xtns for the Help menu).

Sorry, but I disagree.  IMHO, there are more than two useful layouts.
Maybe I am sick or strange or something, but actually I use different
layouts for the toolbox on different computers, depending mostly on
the screen size and window manager used.

Here are the layouts that I found useful:

*  86 x 376  3 columns of icons, selectors at the bottom.  "Traditional"
*  58 x 516  2 columns of icons, selectors at the bottom.  A bit narrower
 and taller than the default layout.  The selection tools are
 nicely sorted but it would look better without the last
 three icons (odd number).
*  30 x 880  1 column of icons, selectors at the bottom.  Everything on
 a single column, like some well-known office toolbar.  This
 fits very nicely on the side of a Sun screen (1152x900) and
 leaves a lot of desktop space for large images.  The pattern
 selector does not fit, but I can live without it since I can
 open the dialog from the menu when I need it (not often).
* 170 x 262  6 columns of icons, selectors at the bottom.  Similar to the
 old Gimp 0.54.  All selection tools are on one row.  As with
 all other layouts, it would even be nicer without the last
 three icons (170 x 234) and if the two selectors could be
 side-by-side (approx. 170 x 182 which would be almost square)
 Unfortunately, this layout is broken for the moment (1.1.16)
 because the selectors insist on going to the right.  Why?
* 289 x 68   3 columns of icons, selectors to the right.  Current default.
 It wastes a bit more space than the previous one.
* 516 x 81   2 rows of icons, selectors to the right.  Useful if you like
 to have the toolbox near the top or bottom of the screen.
* 880 x 53   1 row of icons, selectors to the right.  Very handy if you
 have configured your window manager to display the toolbox
 without window title.  The gradient selector does not fit,
 unfortunately.

I did not like the layouts in which one selector was on the right and
the other one at the bottom, because this wastes too much space.

Please try to resize your Gimp toolbox to each of the sizes mentioned
above (that was for 1.1.16), so that you can get an idea of their
usefulness.  I think that all of them can be useful, depending on how
you work.  The "traditional" layout is a good compromise in most cases
(much better than the current default).  But when I work with a single
large image, I tend to prefer the "thin" layouts (everything on 1 or 2
rows or columns) and when I work with multiple small images, I prefer
the "square" layouts (6 columns) because it is easier to locate the
toolbox when multiple windows overlap.  Choosing a vertical or
horizontal layout is a matter of taste, but also depends on the window
manager you are using (the size of the title bar and decoration
varies).

-Raphael



Re: Toolbox layout and Help menu

2000-02-11 Thread Raphael Quinet

On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Your list looked interesting. But, you seem to ignore the menu problem. 
 IMHO 2 columns is the absolute minimum since even then get problems with 
 the Help menu. If we'd allow less than 2 columns, not even Xtns will be 
 accesible any longer.

Hey, don't prevent me from using one of my favourite layouts!  :-)

Really, having all icons on a single column is quite useful sometimes.
As I mentioned in my previous message, this fits perfectly on a Sun
screen (1152x900) because the height of the single-column toolbox is
880 pixels + the WM title.  And since it is so thin, I can configure
my WM to make the Gimp toolbox appear on all workspaces.  I like this
when I work with large images and I put one very large window in each
workspace.

I did not ignore the menu problem.  If the "Help" bug is fixed (it is
a one-line change in app/menu.c to make it last-from-left), then only
the "File" menu is visible.  But when I work with very large images, I
do not need the "Xtns" menu at all, so I can live without it until I
finish working on full-screen images and go back to a more traditional
layout for the Gimp toolbox.

That being said, I also like the columns-spinbutton idea, as long as
the minimum is 1 column.  I agree with the other parts of your
message, and with your suggestion to move the Measure tool in the View
menu or Info window.

-Raphael



Re: Toolbox layout and Help menu

2000-02-11 Thread Sven Neumann

Hi,

 I did not ignore the menu problem.  If the "Help" bug is fixed (it is
 a one-line change in app/menu.c to make it last-from-left), then only
 the "File" menu is visible.  But when I work with very large images, I
 do not need the "Xtns" menu at all, so I can live without it until I
 finish working on full-screen images and go back to a more traditional
 layout for the Gimp toolbox.
 
 That being said, I also like the columns-spinbutton idea, as long as
 the minimum is 1 column.  I agree with the other parts of your
 message, and with your suggestion to move the Measure tool in the View
 menu or Info window.

Loosing access to a menu may be acceptable to you, but I think it is
in no way acceptable for a program that wants to reach a larger audience.
I see the bugreports coming in daily.  Additionally I don't know how the
color-selector should fit into a one-column layout.
In other word: unacceptable for the masses, but you may always change the
2 to a 1 in the spinbutton creator for your own personal pleasure.

Alternatively we can of course merge all menus into one GIMP menu...

 
Salut, Sven




Re: Toolbox layout and Help menu

2000-02-11 Thread Arcterex

 Loosing access to a menu may be acceptable to you, but I think it is
 in no way acceptable for a program that wants to reach a larger audience.
 I see the bugreports coming in daily.  Additionally I don't know how the
 color-selector should fit into a one-column layout.
 In other word: unacceptable for the masses, but you may always change the
 2 to a 1 in the spinbutton creator for your own personal pleasure.
 
 Alternatively we can of course merge all menus into one GIMP menu...

What about the possibilitie of a tear off menu a-la gnome?  Would this
require all the gnome libs or can it be implemented in straight gtk?  This
way the user has the option of a thin toolbar and a mushed menu or a thin
toolbar and a floating menu.  Or even better, have the toolbar
automatically detach when the width of the toobox gets below a certain
width?  Ok, not a great idea but something to throw into the stew. 

Regards,

alan

--
Arcterex -=|=- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -=|=- http://arcterex.ufies.org
'... I was worried they were going to say "you don't have enough LSD in your
system to do UNIX programming."'   -- Paul Tomblin in a.s.r



Re: Toolbox layout and Help menu

2000-02-11 Thread Paul Melis

Hi,
the discussion about the placing of the Help menu
and shortening some of the names in the toolbox 
menubar made me wonder: I have a script that
registers itself under "Toolbox/MyScripts" and
this creates a new menu-item "MyScripts" on the 
RIGHT side of the Help menu. Is this a small glitch
(because Help should be the rightmost) or is
registering under non-existing Toolbox paths
something that just accidentally works? 
(I would suspect the first is the case)

Regards,
Paul
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



Re: Toolbox layout and Help menu

2000-02-11 Thread Glyph Lefkowitz


On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Sven Neumann wrote:

 Alternatively we can of course merge all menus into one GIMP menu...

It seems like this is really the only reasonable option -- I think that
there should be a 'menu' spot in the tools, like the top-left menu in the
image windows, since the toolbar is frequently too thin for the menus
anyway (vertical layout, try using a large font in your gtk theme
sometime...) and if it's not (horizontal layout), then the menubar is
taking up far too much screen real estate for no reason.

I think that a menubar on that window looks dumb... since it is
essentially a palette.

---
Even if you can deceive people about a product through misleading statements,
sooner or later the product will speak for itself.
- Hajime Karatsu