Re: [Gimp-docs] Colors/Desaturate/Desaturate documentation

[Michael Schumacher]

On 03/27/2017 08:56 PM, Elle Stone wrote:

> The resulting html page (shown here:
> http://ninedegreesbelow.com/files/desaturate/8-18-desaturate.html) looks
> good.
> 
> Is there any reason why I shouldn't (try to) push this patch?
> 
> I've been working on this patch for four days now and I'd like to finish
> the project.

No objections here - but I do not want to ursurp any process the
documentation team may follow.


-- 
Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD
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Re: [Gimp-docs] Colors/Desaturate/Desaturate documentation

[Elle Stone]

On 03/27/2017 11:28 AM, Elle Stone wrote:


I will send you the "git status" terminal output and the xml file in a
private email.


Hi Julien,

I did send you an email with the git status terminal output and the xml 
file. But there is a good chance you'll never get the email (there are 
problems with my email server).


So I also uploaded a patch to 
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=767763. I can upload 
desaturate.xml if you like.


The "git status" terminal output can be downloaded from here:
http://ninedegreesbelow.com/files/desaturate/git-status.txt

Best,
Elle

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Re: [Gimp-docs] Colors/Desaturate/Desaturate documentation

[Elle Stone]

On 03/27/2017 12:16 PM, Elle Stone wrote:


The "git status" terminal output can be downloaded from here:
http://ninedegreesbelow.com/files/desaturate/git-status.txt


Never mind the git-status.txt. Starting with a fresh clone, the problem 
with the po files doesn't happen.


Elle

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Re: [Gimp-docs] Colors/Desaturate/Desaturate documentation

[Michael Schumacher]

On March 27, 2017 4:29:11 PM GMT+02:00, Julien Hardelin  
wrote:

>If you send your patches to bugzilla, the only who will resolve them, is me. 

Um... or anyone else with commit access? You don't have to do this all on your 
own, there is a number of people who can and do build the docs, and there is 
also the automated builds on docs.gimp.org.

I found setting up a build environment on both Debian and RHEL (that's what 
docs.gimp.org uses) quite straight-forward, and expect this to be similar on 
other distros - i. e. try to build, see what's missing, install packages, 
repeat. 

-- 
Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD
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Re: [Gimp-docs] Colors/Desaturate/Desaturate documentation

[Julien Hardelin]

Hi Elle,

Sorry if I hurt you. It was not my aim. Only searching a way to resolve 
this endless discussion. English is not my native language and my text 
does not allways transmit my mind.


I repeat: your participation is a luck for gimp help. Time grasping is 
normal for a first contribution.


If you send your patches to bugzilla, the only who will resolve them, is 
me. So the simplest way for you is to send me your xml files and I will 
push them. "push" is the consecrated term in git to send files to the 
git repository.


it seems that some mails don't arrive. For instance, I sent you a 
command to validate a particular xml file (xmllint file.xml). It seems 
that you did not receive it.


Git is a complex tool. Can you send your git status. I will see how to 
resolve your problem with po files.


Best,

Julien


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Re: [Gimp-docs] Colors/Desaturate/Desaturate documentation

[Elle Stone]

On 03/27/2017 01:58 AM, Julien Hardelin wrote:



The Advanced options, along with Split View, Presets, and Preview, are
common to *all* Color and Filter operations.

I don't think it's appropriate to add an explanation about the
Advanced options to each and every Color and Filter page in gimp help.

To speak as plainly and clearly as possible, I will not add
documentation regarding the Advanced options to the patch I'm working
on for the desaturate menu.

You don't need to write information here: only a link:
Advanced options: Please see ..(link to a
common-color-features.xml file to be created).


There are not, as far as I can tell, such links in the current 
documentation to features that are in common to all the dialogs. I've 
been using the current documentation as a model.


IMHO, there is no point in putting in a link to a file (help on Advanced 
options) that doesn't yet exist.


There is no point in writing documentation for the Advanced options 
because this code is still in a state of flux.


It's not even clear if this dialog will remain in the individual dialogs 
without specific user choice made in Preferences: 
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=779620#c1


If someone else wants to write documentation for the Advanced options, 
of course I can't stop them. But I will not write documentation for the 
Advanced options, at least not until the code settles, and maybe not 
even then.






In your file, we don't see that Luminance, Luma... belong to Mode.


I don't understand what you mean. Do you want a screenshot of the
expanded desaturate drop down menu? Will this suffice to show that
"Luminance, Luma . . . belong to Mode"? Or do you mean something else
altogether?

Mode: Five options are available:


OK, thanks! I don't think the original code (which I used as a pattern 
to follow) used , but if I overlooked this, my apologies.


So you want me to change this:

Five options are available:

to this

Mode: Five options are available




I don't understand what you mean. Do you want me to remove something
that appears in the following file, and perhaps move it to a tutorial?

http://ninedegreesbelow.com/files/desaturate/8-18-desaturate.html

If you do want me to remove something from what appears in the above
link, please be very, very specific, as I'm having a difficult time
grasping what you are trying to say. My apologies, my communications
skills seem to be at an all-time low.

I told you that, IMHO, your text can be accepted as it is. I am
discussing about formatting the text.
Time grasping is he same for me with all this discussion. If you don't
understand again, please send me your xml file: I will return it with my
propositions on formatting.


If my text can be accepted as it is, then I don't know what your 
feedback about "tutorials" vs "documentation" was about. So my apologies.


I think I'll just make a commit and deal with any remaining issues later.

Best,
Elle

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Re: [Gimp-docs] Colors/Desaturate/Desaturate documentation

[Elle Stone]

On 03/26/2017 03:35 PM, Elle Stone wrote:


Unless there are objections (and/or advice), I'm going to try to make
and upload a patch.


Assuming that eventually I'll succeed in putting the modified 
desaturate.xml file into a shape that is acceptable for gimp-help, at 
that point I'll need to make a patch.


Here is a summary of the affected files, along with three questions:

Here are the files that I explicitly modified:

images/C/menus/colors/desaturate/desaturate.png
src/menus/colors/desaturate/desaturate.xml

I added new image files to images/C/menus/colors/desaturate, as follows:

colors-desaturate-average-red-globe.png
colors-desaturate-average-sunflower.png
colors-desaturate-lightness-red-globe.png
colors-desaturate-lightness-sunflower.png
colors-desaturate-luma-red-globe.png
colors-desaturate-luma-sunflower.png
colors-desaturate-luminance-red-globe.png
colors-desaturate-luminance-sunflower.png
colors-desaturate-original-red-globe.png
colors-desaturate-original-sunflower.png
colors-desaturate-value-red-globe.png
colors-desaturate-value-sunflower.png


Question 1:
There is a long list of "po/..." files that are modified by building 
gimp-help after modifying/adding the above xml/png files.


Should these modified "po/..." files be added to the git commit?


Question 2:
These image files are no longer used in the desaturate help, so perhaps 
these files should be rm'ed from git before I make a patch?


images/C/toolbox/colors-desaturate-brightness.png
images/C/toolbox/colors-desaturate-luminosity.png
images/C/toolbox/colors-desaturate-average.png
images/C/toolbox/colors-desaturate-orig.png


Question 3:
Is there anything different about the process of making a patch for 
gimp-help, compared to making a patch for gimp code? Anything to watch 
out for, or special commands, or anything along these lines?


Best,
Elle
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Re: [Gimp-docs] Colors/Desaturate/Desaturate documentation

[Julien Hardelin]

In a tutorial, we use only some features of a dialog.

Gimp-help menus are not tutorials. They are references, and so, each 
feature of a dialog must be described. Some are common to several 
commands; they can be grouped in a common-features file.


You can't leave the Advanced option unexplained; you must explain, as 
you did here, why you can't develop explanations nor give an example. Or 
what will users think?


In your file, we don't see that Luminance, Luma... belong to Mode.

No, it is not necessary to do more about these Mode options: "Five 
options are available " is enough


Julien


Le 26/03/2017 à 18:22, Elle Stone a écrit :

On 03/26/2017 10:58 AM, Elle Stone wrote:


2- Mode
* Luminance
* Luma
* Lightness
* Average
* Value
3- Advanced options
* Apply filter to the layer's RAW pixels: with an example


If the above means that there should be documentation for the five 
Modes and *also* for "Advanced options/Apply filter to the layer's RAW 
pixels", I don't think adding documentation for "Advanced options 
Apply filter to the layer's RAW pixels" to the desaturate help (or any 
other help page for a specific editing option) is a good idea.


Just one example wouldn't do as it would be misleading. Between the 
gamma hack and the "color managed" option there are four possible 
combinations for the user to choose among, for each desaturate mode:


* The precise effect of each combination of "mode+using or not using 
the advanced options" does vary depending on whether the operation in 
question requests linearized RGB or RGB encoded using the sRGB TRC. So 
for example the effect when choosing Luminance is different from the 
effect when using Luma.


*The precise effect also varies depending on whether the image is at 
"linear" or "perceptual" precision.


* It seems, though I'm not 100% certain, that the effect also depends 
on whether there has been any previous "making of a new profile from a 
pre-existing non-GIMP-built-in profile", which in turn depends on 
whether the image had an embedded linear gamma ICC profile and whether 
the image has been promoted to 32f with linear precision and then 
possibly back to gamma precision, and on whether the user has chosen 
to automatically promote to 32f in Preferences.


In other words, accurately explaining the possible results from using 
the Advanced Color Options in the Desaturate dialog would require a 
flow chart in order to explain what happens when using which 
combination of the Advanced Color Options given X current precision, Y 
previous precision changes and Z original non-sRGB embedded ICC 
profile, combined with the choice amongst the various modes for 
converting to black and white that the user has made.


I'd very much prefer to not create such a flow chart, especially since 
the code for the relevant factors affecting the outcome of any given 
set of choices+previous-precision-changes is still in a state of flux.


Best,
L
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Re: [Gimp-docs] Colors/Desaturate/Desaturate documentation

[Julien Hardelin]

To validate a particular xml file, I use the command: xmllint file.xml.

Julien
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Re: [Gimp-docs] Colors/Desaturate/Desaturate documentation

[Elle Stone]

On 03/26/2017 12:52 PM, Elle Stone wrote:

Here is a link to what the modified html file looks like after compiling
gimp-help to use the modified desaturate xml file, along with some new
images:

http://ninedegreesbelow.com/files/desaturate/8-18-desaturate.html


Oh, sorry, forgot to upload the newfiles! But now the new files are up 
there.


And italicized lines are actually italicized, yeah!

Best,
Elle

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Re: [Gimp-docs] Colors/Desaturate/Desaturate documentation

[Elle Stone]

On 03/26/2017 10:58 AM, Elle Stone wrote:


FWIW, I succeeded in compiling gimp-help with the modified desaturate
XML file. I'll send some questions in another email.


Here is a link to what the modified html file looks like after compiling 
gimp-help to use the modified desaturate xml file, along with some new 
images:


http://ninedegreesbelow.com/files/desaturate/8-18-desaturate.html

Here are three specific questions:


1. How does one validate a specific xml file? Running "make validate-en" 
produces this rather unhelpful output:


*** Validating XML (en) ...
-:57673: element figure: validity error : Element figure content does 
not follow the DTD, expecting (blockinfo? , (title , titleabbrev?) , 
(literallayout | programlisting | programlistingco | screen | screenco | 
screenshot | synopsis | cmdsynopsis | funcsynopsis | classsynopsis | 
fieldsynopsis | constructorsynopsis | destructorsynopsis | 
methodsynopsis | address | blockquote | graphic | graphicco | 
mediaobject | mediaobjectco | informalequation | informalexample | 
informalfigure | informaltable | indexterm | beginpage | link | olink | 
ulink)+), got (title para mediaobject mediaobject para mediaobject 
mediaobject para mediaobject mediaobject para mediaobject mediaobject 
para mediaobject mediaobject para mediaobject mediaobject para 
itemizedlist para itemizedlist )


 ^
(You will find log and xml files in log/.)

I say "unhelpful" because there's no mention of what file is causing the 
error. Opening the files in "log/" also doesn't seem to indicate which 
file is causing the problems.



2. I checked with https://validator.w3.org/check, which said the errors 
were exactly where I thought they would be, which is that I used 
 to cause the pairs of image files to be split by line breaks.


So what is the right way to cause a bunch of image files to break to a 
new line at specific places in the list of image files?


Also the w3 validator didn't like that I put an itemized list inside the 
Figure.


How do I fix these issues with the Figure?


3. I used this to try to make some text italicized:

Comparing the resulting shades of gray for the red globe 
and yellow sunflower:


but the text isn't italicized in the html file. So how does one make 
text be italicised?


Best,
Elle


Here's the relevant excerpts from desaturate.xml:


  Comparing the five options
  
The images below shows the result of using the five different ways
to convert to black and white, for two very different starting 
images:

  

  

  


  Original image

  
  

  


  Original image

  



  

  


  Luminance applied

  
  

  


  Luminance applied

  



. . .

Comparing the resulting shades of gray for the red globe and
yellow sunflower:


For the red globe Lightness (HSL) produces a result 
very
similar to Luminance, and Luma produces a conversion that is much 
darker.


For the sunflower, Luma produces a result very 
similar to
Luminance, and Lightness (HSL) produces a conversion that is much 
darker.


Notice that the less saturated parts of each image look
more or less the same, regardless of which methoc is chosen for 
converting

from color to black and white.



. . .



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Re: [Gimp-docs] Colors/Desaturate/Desaturate documentation

[Julien Hardelin]

We have a special make in gimp-help-2.

It is possible to build a draft for a single xml file html with this 
make, but images are not embedded. it uses the xml file that is in xml/en/:


make xml/en/.../name-of-the-xml.draft

and you find this draft in the htlm-en folder.

Better is the command: yelp file=///path-to-the source-xml-file.xml

Best,

Julien



That works - thanks! Where did this "html-en" option come from?

Starting from "./autogen.sh", what are the recommended commands for 
installing and then updating gimp-help, when the goal is to check the 
English html file that results from modifying a single xml file?




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Re: [Gimp-docs] Colors/Desaturate/Desaturate documentation

[Elle Stone]

On 03/25/2017 04:10 PM, Julien Hardelin wrote:


My apologies, I don't understand what "Precise that these options
belong to the Mode item" means. What is a Mode item?

Are you referring to the "Advanced Color Options"?



Options
1- Presets
2- Mode
* Luminance
* Luma
* Lightness
* Average
* Value
3- Advanced options
* Apply filter to the layer's RAW pixels: with an example
4- Preview
5- Split view: interest?



I'm still not sure what you are saying.

Are you saying that you want specific documentation for the desaturate 
dialog for *all* of the following?


Presets
All the Modes
The Advanced options
The Preview
The Split View

Or are you saying you only want documentation for the five Modes?

Luminance
Luma
Lightness
Average
Value

FWIW, I succeeded in compiling gimp-help with the modified desaturate 
XML file. I'll send some questions in another email.


Best,
Elle

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Re: [Gimp-docs] Colors/Desaturate/Desaturate documentation

[Julien Hardelin]

Hi Elle,

Maybe everything under "Choose shades of gray based on" except the 
actual formulas should be moved to the Notes at the bottom of the page?


My apologies, I don't understand what "Precise that these options 
belong to the Mode item" means. What is a Mode item?


Are you referring to the "Advanced Color Options"?

Options
1- Presets
2- Mode
* Luminance
* Luma
* Lightness
* Average
* Value
3- Advanced options
* Apply filter to the layer's RAW pixels: with an example
4- Preview
5- Split view: interest?



-"linearized RGB" needs a link.

The link can be to the Web, or to another part of the doc

Best,

Julien

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Re: [Gimp-docs] Colors/Desaturate/Desaturate documentation

[Elle Stone]

On 03/25/2017 03:12 AM, Julien Hardelin wrote:

Hello Elle,


Hi Julien,

Thanks! for taking the time to respond.


Color management is a hard subject. In the gimp-users list, questions
about color management are rare, because common users don't use it,
because they don't understand it.

In the other hand, this document will be interesting for users who know
color management.


Maybe everything under "Choose shades of gray based on" except the 
actual formulas should be moved to the Notes at the bottom of the page?



Your participation is a chance for gimp-help. I think we can keep this
text as it is, but a tutorial about color management for newbies becomes
necessary.


Yes - I've been working on a tutorial that could be included in GIMP 
help or the official online GIMP tutorials.



Only  small remarks:

- Precise that these options belong to the Mode item.


My apologies, I don't understand what "Precise that these options belong 
to the Mode item" means. What is a Mode item?




- All elements of a dialog must be described, even if they look evident,
because they might not be evident for some users: function, what are
they useful for?


Are you referring to the "Advanced Color Options"?


-"linearized RGB" needs a link.


Linearizing the sRGB TRC is actually at the core of how GIMP 2.9/2.10 
differs from GIMP 2.8 and from other image editors.


A short explanation to which references to "linearized" and "linear" can 
link would be a nice thing to add to the GIMP tutorials or help, yes?


Section 1 of this link gives the mathematics for linearizing the sRGB 
TRC: http://brucelindbloom.com/index.html?Eqn_RGB_to_XYZ.html


Someone who doesn't already understand "linearized RGB" probably won't 
find the mathematical formula for undoing the sRGB companding curve to 
be very helpful in understanding what "linearize" actually means.


Best,
Elle

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Re: [Gimp-docs] Colors/Desaturate/Desaturate documentation

[Elle Stone]

On 03/23/2017 11:09 PM, Pat David wrote:

Hi Elle!

I can't  answer the other questions, but 2.9 can be found here:

https://docs.gimp.org/2.9/en/

pat


Pat, thanks! I was sure I had seen such a link, but couldn't find it again.

Elle

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Re: [Gimp-docs] Colors/Desaturate/Desaturate documentation

[Julien Hardelin]

Hello Elle,

Color management is a hard subject. In the gimp-users list, questions 
about color management are rare, because common users don't use it, 
because they don't understand it.


In the other hand, this document will be interesting for users who know 
color management.


Your participation is a chance for gimp-help. I think we can keep this 
text as it is, but a tutorial about color management for newbies becomes 
necessary.


Only  small remarks:

- Precise that these options belong to the Mode item.

- All elements of a dialog must be described, even if they look evident, 
because they might not be evident for some users: function, what are 
they useful for?


-"linearized RGB" needs a link.

All the best,

Julien



Le 24/03/2017 à 19:53, Elle Stone a écrit :

On 03/21/2017 12:48 PM, Elle Stone wrote:


As my first attempt at trying to help with updating the documentation, I
want to try to update the Colors/Desaturate/Desaturate documentation to
be current with some recent patches.


It will be easier for me to work with XML once I know what content I 
want to put into the XML files. So I revised the html file for the 
Colors/Desaturate/Desaturate menu and posted the revision to my 
website. Here's the (very temporary) link:


http://ninedegreesbelow.com/files/desaturate/8-18-desaturate.html

Feedback on the revision is greatly appreciated. If I've used too many 
words, too long sentences, strayed into too much detail, made any 
blatant mistakes, etc, please let me know and I'll try again.


If I don't receive any negative feedback (or no feedback at all) in 
the next day or so, I'll assume my revision is "content OK" and will 
port the revised content over to the XML documents.


On the one hand, there have been a lot of major changes to GIMP's 
"color management/color mixing/layer blending" code, that needs 
corresponding revision in the documentation.


On the other hand, the articles and tutorials I've written for my 
website tend to be overly wordy and technical.


So I want to make sure I'm hitting the right balance of "too little vs 
too much information" before heading into the deeper waters of the 
color management documentation. Which is why I'm asking for feedback 
on the Desaturate menu revisions.


Best,
Elle


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Re: [Gimp-docs] Colors/Desaturate/Desaturate documentation

[Elle Stone]

On 03/23/2017 05:42 PM, Kolbjørn Stuestøl wrote:

I too welcomes you, Elle.


Thanks!


I know that Julien is an excellent writer and teacher so you are in the
best hands. It was Julien (among a couple others) who instructed me in
how to translate and in writing documentation many years ago.


Hopefully I can learn from Julien how to write more clearly using fewer 
words.



Hoping you will discuss problems and solutions on this site. I have lots
more to learn by following your thoughts.


Well, if there's something I can help explain, please ask!

The GIMP manual is huge - I didn't know so few people actually wrote 
documentation - it seems to me that you all have accomplished miracles.


Best,
Elle

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Re: [Gimp-docs] Colors/Desaturate/Desaturate documentation

[Marco Ciampa via gimp-docs-list]

On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 03:09:13AM +, Pat David wrote:
> Hi Elle!
> 
> I can't  answer the other questions, but 2.9 can be found here:
> 
> https://docs.gimp.org/2.9/en/
> 
> pat
> 

Thank you Pat!

A suggestion: why not a link on the main site?

Regards,

-- 


Marco Ciampa

I know a joke about UDP, but you might not get it.



 GNU/Linux User #78271
 FSFE fellow #364



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Re: [Gimp-docs] Colors/Desaturate/Desaturate documentation

[Pat David]

Hi Elle!

I can't  answer the other questions, but 2.9 can be found here:

https://docs.gimp.org/2.9/en/

pat

On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 4:23 PM Elle Stone 
wrote:

> On 03/23/2017 03:52 PM, Julien Hardelin wrote:
> > Welcome Elle,
> >
> > At last, I will not be alone writing documentation :-)
> >
> > I send you an How to contribute that summarizes my experience, hoping it
> > will help you.
> >
> > Julien
> >
>
> Hi Julien,
>
> Is there a version of the git master documentation online somewhere? I
> see 2.8 online, but not 2.9/2.10.
>
> Is there an IRC channel for documentation? Or is the docs-list the best
> place to ask questions?
>
> Regarding images, in the desaturate documentation there are two images:
>
> 1. The desaturate dialog. I'd like to make a new screenshot as the
> current screenshot is out of date, not showing the current default which
> has changed to "Luminance".
>
> 2. The sunflower illustrating various ways to desaturate using the
> desaturate dialog. This is out of date because it's missing a couple of
> options. Also I'd like to add a second image to illustrate a particular
> point (having to do with colorfulness vs luminance) when evaluating the
> various desaturate options.
>
> Are there guidelines for making images (number per page, dimensions,
> file size, file type, stripped of metadata?, etc)? I see that all the
> images on the desaturate page are pngs and are fairly small.
>
> I didn't (yet?) receive a "How to contribute" but that sounds very useful.
>
> Best,
> Elle
>
>
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