Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression
Excellent post sir. Just because one is in software development, doesn' t mean they understand professional image editing workflow. Yeah I'm looking at a certain Debian developer ;-D -- Cheers, Stephen, Toronto My Google+ Profile | http://goo.gl/JbQsq ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression
On 06/17/2013 06:38 AM, Liam R E Quin wrote: On Mon, 2013-06-17 at 00:52 +0200, Ofnuts wrote: if you only do local editing and save the image back with the exact same JPEG quality settings, the blocks which no changed pixels very quickly end up producing the very same data as their source in the JPEG file in every editing cycle, This depends on the sorts of edits you do. For example, changing contrast or levels globally, or running a sharpen filter, will often accentuate the original jpeg artifacts so that they in turn create new artifacts. (that's why I mentioned levels, curves and sharpen explicitly in the post i made somewhere else in this thread). Yes, this is why I said local editing. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression
Hi Renaud, On 15 Jun 13 12:36 Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI ren...@olgiati-in-paraguay.org said: To the whingers - you are boring, get a life. This is a bit rich, coming from the country where we hear they are still whingeing about Decimalization and Metrication You must know by now we Brits are going metric inch by inch! (A point first made to me by a Norwegian friend!) Greg Chapman http://www.gregtutor.plus.com Helping new users of KompoZer and The GIMP ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression
Nice web page… Is KompoZer still useful? I have BlueGriffon. On Jun 17, 2013, at 9:02 AM, Greg Chapman gregtu...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Hi Renaud, On 15 Jun 13 12:36 Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI ren...@olgiati-in-paraguay.org said: To the whingers - you are boring, get a life. This is a bit rich, coming from the country where we hear they are still whingeing about Decimalization and Metrication You must know by now we Brits are going metric inch by inch! (A point first made to me by a Norwegian friend!) Greg Chapman http://www.gregtutor.plus.com Helping new users of KompoZer and The GIMP ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list Mitja http://www.redbubble.com/people/lumiwa ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?
Andrew Bridget wrote, When you open a image in GIMP you are basically importing any image type into the software, so whilst you are editing in GIMP it is no longer a .jpg or .tif or other that you opened it is a .xcf file, hence why you now export. Where previous versions you opened a .jpg and you saved to .jpg, it was still a .xcf file while you where editing it but the software automatically saved it back to the format you opened it in, unless you selected .xcf or others to save it too. I think there is some confusion here. As I understand it, when an image is open in GIMP and is being edited, the image you see is the display on screen of an arrangement of pixels in memory, rather than a .xcf (or any other file format) file. And that has been the process even before the change to the save/export process. That is, .xcf. .jpg, and any other file to which you end up saving are file formats, not what is currently being edited in memory. It's only when you save (which GIMP now limits to the .xcf file format), or export (to other file formats), that the arrangement of pixels in memory is rearranged again for whatever the on-disk file format requires. -- Bob Long ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?
Bob you are indeed correct as the image is held in the memory not a file type, the point I was trying to make was that the image is no longer a .jpg. I believe there is a little confusion here generally with what Helen is trying to do. I think she needs several scaled images. Sent from my iPad On 16 Jun 2013, at 06:54, Bob Long b...@oblong.com.au wrote: Andrew Bridget wrote, When you open a image in GIMP you are basically importing any image type into the software, so whilst you are editing in GIMP it is no longer a .jpg or .tif or other that you opened it is a .xcf file, hence why you now export. Where previous versions you opened a .jpg and you saved to .jpg, it was still a .xcf file while you where editing it but the software automatically saved it back to the format you opened it in, unless you selected .xcf or others to save it too. I think there is some confusion here. As I understand it, when an image is open in GIMP and is being edited, the image you see is the display on screen of an arrangement of pixels in memory, rather than a .xcf (or any other file format) file. And that has been the process even before the change to the save/export process. That is, .xcf. .jpg, and any other file to which you end up saving are file formats, not what is currently being edited in memory. It's only when you save (which GIMP now limits to the .xcf file format), or export (to other file formats), that the arrangement of pixels in memory is rearranged again for whatever the on-disk file format requires. -- Bob Long ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?
Also, when you export the image to a JPEG, if suddenly your open image window disappears, well that is not supposed to happen at all and sounds something like a GIMP program crash, but we don't have enough information as is to determine that. And when GIMP crashes, you at least get a message telling you in no ambiguous terms that something crashed. No, GIMP is not crashing. The pix.xcf is still on the screen. Old way: Create file 300x300, work on it. Save as orchard.xcf, all layers intact, everything fine. Scaled image to 72x72, named it Orchard-scaled.png (or .jpg if that's what they ask for). I then had that Orchard-scaled.png on my screen and I could make changes if I wanted to before mailing it. It seems I can't do that any more. Now, if I want to see my 72x72 Orchard-scaled.png, I have to open it, and as soon as I open it, it becomes a file that I can't mail because it's no longer a .png. So my Q, is there a way to open that .png, keep it a .png, tweak it if I want to, save the .png and mail it? -- Stratadrake strata_ran...@hotmail.com Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth. -- Helen Etters using Linux, suse12.3 ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?
Helen wrote, Also, when you export the image to a JPEG, if suddenly your open image window disappears, well that is not supposed to happen at all and sounds something like a GIMP program crash, but we don't have enough information as is to determine that. And when GIMP crashes, you at least get a message telling you in no ambiguous terms that something crashed. No, GIMP is not crashing. The pix.xcf is still on the screen. What you see on screen is not .xcf or .jpg or any FILE format. Old way: Create file 300x300, work on it. Save as orchard.xcf, all layers intact, everything fine. Scaled image to 72x72, named it Orchard-scaled.png (or .jpg if that's what they ask for). You have created a file on disk in the format .png (or .jpg). I then had that Orchard-scaled.png on my screen and I could make changes if I wanted to before mailing it. No, you do not have a .png file on your screen. You have a display of pixels that were unchanged when you saved to disk as .png. If you had saved as .jpg, the saving process would have lost information as it saved to disk but the memory image would have stayed unchanged and would not have lost any information. So if you were thinking that what you were seeing on screen is exactly what the .jpg on disk would like, after the saving process lost information in creating the .jpg (and thus not needing to re-open the .jpg to check), then you were mistaken. It seems I can't do that any more. Nothing has changed in that regard. Now, if I want to see my 72x72 Orchard-scaled.png, I have to open it, and as soon as I open it, it becomes a file that I can't mail because it's no longer a .png. As soon as you open it, you have as display on screen of the image. The file on disk has not been changed by opening it. So my Q, is there a way to open that .png, keep it a .png, tweak it if I want to, save the .png and mail it? Well, you open it, edit it, and export it (or, at least in my version, there is an Overwrite... option, but that of course will lose the previous version) as whatever file type you want, and mail it. If I understand you, I think you are confusing what GIMP has in memory with what file format is actually stored on disk. I suspect in your old workflow you have been presuming what what remained on screen was the same as a saved lossy format on disk. And because of the same misunderstanding, you have presumed that the new export process required you to reload the image to see the result. That second presumption is more correct, so strictly speaking your old process was not actually doing you what you thought it was. Of course, depending on the degree of lossy-ness of the saved format, you may not be able to see the difference. So, again, if I understand you, the new export process has actually revealed an error in your previous workflow. -- Bob Long ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ? [saving undo history]
On 06/15/13 22:38, Liam R E Quin wrote: On Sat, 2013-06-15 at 08:03 -0700, Richard Gitschlag wrote: Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 11:30:43 +0200 From: schum...@gmx.de To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ? . . . That's not perfect yet - for example, you lose the undo history . . . How often is Undo history ACTUALLY needed by the user, beyond fixing a ten-seconds-ago mistake? I can't personally name a single application that stores undo history with the document's workfile; but if you can, let me know. no-one swims across the river here so we don't need a bridge? I've used commercial software that stored editing history in a database - you can go back through the entire history of most aircraft manuals and see all the edits, for example, for obvious legal reasons. I've many times wished I could save undo history - e.g. I'm experimenting, but my flight is boarding or my battery is low. Liam Office software, when you set it to display revisions, in a way saves undo history. -- Yours in Christ, Joseph A Nagy Jr Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge, But he who hates correction is stupid. -- Proverbs 12:1 Emails are not formal business letters, whatever businesses may want. Original content CopyFree (F) under the OWL http://copyfree.org/licenses/owl/license.txt ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?
On 15.06.2013 17:03, Richard Gitschlag wrote: Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 11:30:43 +0200 From: schum...@gmx.de To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ? . . . That's not perfect yet - for example, you lose the undo history . . . How often is Undo history ACTUALLY needed by the user, beyond fixing a ten-seconds-ago mistake? You think about it as a way to correct mistakes. Think about it as a way to change the history of anything done to the image. -- Regards, Michael ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ? [saving undo history]
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 08:40:34 -0500 From: jnagyjr1...@gmail.com To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ? [saving undo history] On Sat, 2013-06-15 at 08:03 -0700, Richard Gitschlag wrote: How often is Undo history ACTUALLY needed by the user, beyond fixing a ten-seconds-ago mistake? I can't personally name a single application that stores undo history with the document's workfile; but if you can, let me know. Office software, when you set it to display revisions, in a way saves undo history. Come to think of it, I've used that. MS Word's Track Changes feature turns out to be quite useful when you're proofreading someone else's copy. But it is not a full undo history, just a diff between the original (oldest) and revised (newest) copies. -- Stratadrake strata_ran...@hotmail.com Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?
Ah, finally, some concrete specifics. Let me digest that... Old way: Create file 300x300, work on it. Okay, you now have one window/tab displaying your image. (Since this is just an example, I'm not going to question whether the image is 300x300 pixels or some arbitrary size tagged as 300dpi. But always include the unit-of-measure with a number.) Save as orchard.xcf, all layers intact, everything fine. Gotcha. Scaled image to 72x72, named it Orchard-scaled.png (or .jpg if that's what they ask for). Right, so you did indeed rescale the image size (and update the dpi to reflect the new pixel dimensions) and after that you output it as a separate file using a standard image format. No problems here. I then had that Orchard-scaled.png on my screen and I could make changes if I wanted to before mailing it. This is because in the 2.6 model the open image is named according to its most-recently-saved filename (regardless of file format). So yes, if say you forgot to add a watermark or something you could simply make the change and hit Save to re-output orchard-scaled.png . Note that by doing this you lose the ability to quickly save said changes back to your XCF unless/until you specifically tell GIMP to Save As... an XCF again. (Ironically, since you did an image rescale between the XCF and PNG, GIMP losing track of the XCF is probably a good thing.) It seems I can't do that any more. Now, if I want to see my 72x72 Orchard-scaled.png, I have to open it, and as soon as I open it, it becomes a file that I can't mail because it's no longer a .png. Not exactly. The open image window is labelled something along the lines of Untitled [original filename]. 'Untitled' refers to the XCF associated with the open window (or in this case the lack thereof, since it was opened directly from a standard image file) but the window title does note that the image was nonetheless loaded from a file. More importantly, the file on disk remains completely unchanged (and mailable); GIMP doesn't even place a lock on the file handle (unlike many commercial products); you could open your mail software and attach/send a copy of your PNG even while GIMP is still running. I agree, though, in some cases you do want to verify what the exported file looks like, in which case you do need to open that file in a separate window/tab. No way around that, in fact there never was :( So my Q, is there a way to open that .png, keep it a .png, tweak it if I want to, save the .png and mail it? Yes, just use the Export commands instead of the Save commands, keeping in mind that in 2.8 Save only works on XCF files: - When you are working on an XCF, you will be prompted for the filename (and assorted filetype options) the first time you hit the Export command, but after that, as long as GIMP remains open you can re-export that image at any time (with no additional prompts or dialogs) by using the Export to [filename] command. - When you open a standard file format, one of the Export options will become Overwrite [filename] which is the equivalent of a quick save back to the original filename with as few GIMP prompts/dialogs as possible. (Note that in practice you should never do this with JPG files) -- Stratadrake strata_ran...@hotmail.com Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?
On 16.06.2013 15:03, Bob Long wrote: So, again, if I understand you, the new export process has actually revealed an error in your previous workflow. Revealing that misconception is one of the change's goals. See http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/Save_%2B_export_specification -- Regards, Michael ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.
On 06/14/2013 02:34 PM, Steve Kinney wrote: Every time people insist on cluttering the list up with weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth over Save vs. Export, it is... +1 -- KevinO ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.
Repeat after me : Alt-F A, ctrl-s, ctrl-s (repeat as needed), shift-ctrl-e, close. Hardly rocket science and needs about 15 minutes for mucles memory to cut in. Jusy my 2d worth, F xx --- Apologies for brevity, top posting and poor citation.This email was sent from a mobile device. --- ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression
No less than six digests were waiting to be read this morning, almost entirely cluttered with this nonsense. How much do I pay for the Gimp? Nothing. Am I delighted with it? Yes! Does it require any effort to get used to using ctrlE and ctrlS ? No - a child would make less fuss than some of the posters to this group. Thousands of us owe a debt of gratitude to all the developers. To the whingers - you are boring, get a life. Dave Russell London ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression
From: Helen etter...@gmail.com snip I work with agents for my art galleries. One of my agents wants everything sent as jpeg so I send her what she wants. One wants .tif so I send her what she wants. Juried exhibits ask for jpeg (I don't know why but this change adds hours to a job that should take me half an hour. I fail to understand why using ctrlshiftE rather than ctrlshiftS adds any time at all to your work. What's happening in those extra hours? Dave Russell London ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression
On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 11:32:45 +0100 . traml...@gmail.com wrote: How much do I pay for the Gimp? Nothing. Am I delighted with it? Yes! Glad to hear you are. Does it require any effort to get used to using ctrlE and ctrlS ? No - a child would make less fuss than some of the posters to this group. You are missing the point here, that now if a user opens and modifies a .jpeg picture, Save does not replace the original with the modified picture, but creates a modified picture in a different format, which is contrary to all software practice, except in some cases (like Audacity) where Save explicitely saves a Project and not the original file. (Note to self: suggest to Tsar Alexander he modifies menu entry from Save to Save Project) And GIMP recognizes the difference, since it then complains that the picture has not been saved if you Export (to the original formai) then attempt to close the program. Thousands of us owe a debt of gratitude to all the developers. Yes we do, but we also owe it to them to give some feedback on how we feel about the changes they make in the app. To the whingers - you are boring, get a life. This is a bit rich, coming from the country where we hear they are still whingeing about Decimalization and Metrication ;-3) Cheers, Ron. -- Any man who hates dogs and babies can't be all bad. -- Leo Rosten, on W.C. Fields -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression
Hi all I not often write here, but I'm a regular user of gimp. But I slowly get upset by some mails here On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:32:45AM +0100, . wrote: No less than six digests were waiting to be read this morning, almost entirely cluttered with this nonsense. How much do I pay for the Gimp? Nothing. Am I delighted with it? Yes! Does it require any effort to get used to using ctrlE and ctrlS ? No - a child would make less fuss than some of the posters to this group. Thousands of us owe a debt of gratitude to all the developers. To the whingers - you are boring, get a life. Dave Russell London ---end quoted text--- +100 First: I am myself developer of open source projects as well as Debian developer, so not some casual user. These bullying emails are just plain rubbish. Software should be written with the users in mind. And - opening a jpg file - editing - saving should result in a saved version of yhe original file, because that is what practically all programs are doing, and what the user expectation, and natural behaviour is. Of course a program does not need to follow the guide lines, but then there should be a clear indication that it is doing something else than the standard/default/expected behaviour. It could all be easily avoided if there were two entries save as gimp doc and save as original and a config setting for the default shortcut binding. I don't mind gimp devs pushing for xcf format, what I dislike is breaking of expected behaviour and, like above emails, ignorance of the problem. Norbert ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression
On 06/15/2013 01:36 PM, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: This is a bit rich, coming from the country where we hear they are still whingeing about Decimalization and Metrication ;-3) Well, at least went metric, they didn't remain overly attached to their old warty version of a measurement system :) ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression
On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 12:29:37 +0100 . traml...@gmail.com wrote: I fail to understand why using ctrlshiftE rather than ctrlshiftS adds any time at all to your work. Not the time, but the annoyance at the stupidity of being told my file has not been saved, when I have just saved it back to its original format through Export. Cheers, Ron. -- Nothing is always absolutely so. -- Theodore Sturgeon -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression
On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 08:18:37 -0500 Joseph A. Nagy, Jr jnagyjr1...@gmail.com wrote: Well, at least went metric, they didn't remain overly attached to their old warty version of a measurement system :) Actually they still use imperial measurements as well. The conversion over to metric wasn't 100% successful from what I hear. They still use Miles on roads, and Pints in pubs... Cheers, Ron. -- Nothing is always absolutely so. -- Theodore Sturgeon -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression
On 06/15/2013 02:28 PM, Norbert Preining wrote: Hi all I not often write here, but I'm a regular user of gimp. But I slowly get upset by some mails here First: I am myself developer of open source projects as well as Debian developer, so not some casual user. These bullying emails are just plain rubbish. Software should be written with the users in mind. And - opening a jpg file - editing - saving should result in a saved version of yhe original file, because that is what practically all programs are doing, and what the user expectation, and natural behaviour is. Of course a program does not need to follow the guide lines, but then there should be a clear indication that it is doing something else than the standard/default/expected behaviour. It could all be easily avoided if there were two entries save as gimp doc and save as original and a config setting for the default shortcut binding. I don't mind gimp devs pushing for xcf format, what I dislike is breaking of expected behaviour and, like above emails, ignorance of the problem. Norbert +10 Hi This strange save, save as behaviour could not exist in a professional environment. A professional (and many amateurs) user know he has to save his work. I think Gimp-2.8 tries to do instead of the user that it should do himself. It looks like an other OS (not GNU/LINUX) philosophy : anticipate the desire of the user. -- Maderios ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression
On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 15:57:57 +0200 maderios mader...@gmail.com wrote: This strange save, save as behaviour could not exist in a professional environment. A professional (and many amateurs) user know he has to save his work. I think Gimp-2.8 tries to do instead of the user that it should do himself. It looks like an other OS (not GNU/LINUX) philosophy : anticipate the desire of the user. And, worse, Tsar Alexander refuse to allow users to choose how they work. But thanks to Akkana, resistance is not futile... Cheers, Ron. -- Il faut se garder de donner un nom aux choses: Tant qu'elles n'en ont pas, elles n'existent pas, ou elles existent à peine. -- Jean Dutourd -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 11:30:43 +0200 From: schum...@gmx.de To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ? . . . That's not perfect yet - for example, you lose the undo history . . . How often is Undo history ACTUALLY needed by the user, beyond fixing a ten-seconds-ago mistake? I can't personally name a single application that stores undo history with the document's workfile; but if you can, let me know. -- Stratadrake strata_ran...@hotmail.com Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 02:02:58 +0400 From: alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression. On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 1:55 AM, Psiweapon wrote: Excuse me, Alexandre, but you're being DISMISSIVE AS HELL here. Yes, I am. AND being perfectly civil at the same time. :) As for the rest . . . well, I can sympathize that the if you don't like it, don't use it line is an almost Godwin-class argument. (There, I said it.) -- Stratadrake strata_ran...@hotmail.com Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression
On 06/15/2013 04:38 PM, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 15:57:57 +0200 maderios mader...@gmail.com wrote: This strange save, save as behaviour could not exist in a professional environment. A professional (and many amateurs) user know he has to save his work. I think Gimp-2.8 tries to do instead of the user that it should do himself. It looks like an other OS (not GNU/LINUX) philosophy : anticipate the desire of the user. And, worse, Tsar Alexander refuse to allow users to choose how they work. But thanks to Akkana, resistance is not futile... In developers world, women are rare. Some links concerning Linux geekette Akkana Peck http://www.shallowsky.com/software/ http://lanyrd.com/profile/akkakk/ http://lanyrd.com/2012/pycon/spckd/#link-hcgh http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Akkana_Peck http://gimpbook.com/ https://plus.google.com/112662956693744460184/posts -- Maderios ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression
well, i gotta say, that were i ever to actually use the gimp in any heavy capacity, or a company i worked at would, these saving lists would be required reading due to the variety of formats/procedures detailed. thanks, i guess. :) dan On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 1:18 PM, Chris Mohler cr33...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Renaud OLGIATI ren...@olgiati-in-paraguay.org wrote: I fail to understand why using ctrlshiftE rather than ctrlshiftS adds any time at all to your work. Not the time, but the annoyance at the stupidity of being told my file has not been saved, when I have just saved it back to its original format through Export. See, now this I don't get. Instead of the dialog in 2.6 that was You can't include layers, paths, etc. in JPEG, flatten image?, now there's a dialog that's Hey you might have exported but you didn't save your layers, paths, etc, save them? - and somehow this is so vastly different? I was against the current behavior at the beginning, but my GIMP work falls into one of two cases and it works out this way: 1.) Without a net - destructive editing - I need to edit something like a 1-bit TIFF or a greyscale PNG. - The file is already the result of export from a complex vector file. - And all I really need to do is make some bits black, or some bits white. - Most of the time, I don't use layers or masks - if it's getting too complex I need to go back to the vector source and correct there, then do another export. - So, I open, edit, export, close the file - and then I get the warning, at which point I pause for a second and think: did I add layers, masks, etc. that I need in case this file is a tiny bit off?. 99% of the time, I just close without saving - but there is that tiny percent left where I think hmm... I did save that really complex selection that might come in handy - what the hell, I'll save it. So in case #1, it adds all of a second or maybe three to my workflow and I've become quite used to it. It seems the loudest complaints come from similar workflows - which are not part of GIMP's target. Which brings me to... 2.) Full-on GIMP - lossless editing - I'm creating a layered composition, or a background for another composition that is layered and/or complex. - So there's anything from text layers, layer masks, blending modes - all types of stuff that isn't going to be retained in the export format. - I work, save the file as eg file_20130615-01.xcf. I export in my target format. - If the final needs changes (or I've been working over an hour), I save as file_20130615-02.xcf, work, save, export. Case #2 is exactly how I work with everything in Adobe CS - Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. already. Except that eg Illustrator doesn't restrict the clean flag to just AI (it will treat PDF and EPS as a cleanly saved format), it's exactly the same behavior. For example if I create a file in AI, save it, make some changes, export PNG, close it - it will warn me that wait for it I didn't save the changes in a format that will be recognized by Illustrator the next time I open the file. Sounds familiar, no? ;) Since I already work this way, I never see the you didn't save dialog on these types of GIMP projects. At least, if I'm doing it right that is ;) So it adds 0 seconds to my workflow. I'll give you a simple example of #2: a client sends me a set of bracketed images of a property to combine as HDR (never mind that there are plenty of other tools, client also wants the dog poop out of the yard and the windows cleaned while we're at it, eh?). I'm certainly going to consider the file saved only when it retains all of my layers and masks, never mind if the client is only going to see the exported JPEG. That way, when they come back and ask now can we make the sky green? (stranger requests have been made), it's open, adjust layer, save as, export, close instead of open, make mask (again), adjust, export, close, don't save. Which saves me time, which saves them money, which makes me more valuable as an asset. If all of your GIMP usage falls into #1, you're probably using the wrong tool for the job. Either deal with the extra dialog, or deploy one of the various workarounds (or use another tool). If you're in #2, the distinction should make no difference at all, really, unless you enjoy doing the same work over and over again. Chris PS - we can do without the name-calling and nation-baiting. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression
On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 7:28 AM, Norbert Preining prein...@logic.at wrote: These bullying emails are just plain rubbish. Software should be written with the users in mind. And - opening a jpg file - editing - saving should result in a saved version of yhe original file, because that is what practically all programs are doing, and what the user expectation, and natural behaviour i Grue beat me to this, but this doesn't work for JPEG. If you have a text editor, you could create a document with say 1 header and 3 paragraphs. Then you could edit paragraph #1 a thousand times, save each time, and your header and other paragraphs remain identical. However if you edit a portion of a JPEG a thousand times, and save a thousand times, the whole of the image is going to take some major punishment. In this case instead of saving you are really reencoding. Would you consider your text document saved if random characters were transposed throughout? Chris ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression
On 06/15/2013 01:53 PM, Grue wrote: Wow, just wow. Here are the facts: every time you save your image as JPEG, you lose information. It is by design a lossy image format that uses an algorithm to conserve your disk space via throwing away some insignificant information (which works well for photos, but ruins many other types of images). Worse yet, if you edit a JPEG image and resave it, you lose even more information. This results in very noticeable artifacts in the image. And GIMP actually tries to prevent you from this destructive workflow, yet you keep doing it anyway, and you're complaining about GIMP instead of your own ineptitude. Please, if you work with images, learn about image formats and how they work. The eyes of people who look at your images will thank you later. Well? It seems for all the reasons this Save As... behavior has been established, it's not working. Culture and expectations will out. Personally, I have gotten used to the change. It's still a bit of a tick with me but it reminds me the difference between a work file and a published output file... I remember it each and every time I edit an image. However... I don't feel any more professional than I did before. My workflow? Not quite as flowing as it is in other software which uses a consistent behavior. Inkscape, another program I use for image editing and creation, allows me to Save as... any supported image format just fine which is interesting because of the two programs, Inkscape would actually make more sense to have exhibit this behavior. And when I close the program afterward, I am prompted with: ''The file drawing.png was saved with a format (org.inkscape.output.svg.inkscape) that may cause data loss! Do you want to save this file as Inkscape SVG? [Close without saving] [Cancel] [Save as SVG]'' (This sort of reminds me of Smoking causes cancer labels.) The reason I say the GiMP behavior is more suited to Inkscape is that when using a program like Inkscape, a user is using a variety of primitive tools to compose an image which requires many, many steps and manipulations. But also, Inkscape has export functions such as save as copy and export bitmap. It allows me to do what I want to do, but then reminds me I might be making a big mistake if close the program without saving in the native format. This approach, Inkscape's that is, actually comes closer to accomplishing the purpose described by GiMP's developers without enraging the the user. Apologies all around... I realize this is a wasted effort... I've seen this conversation go on multiple times and I've even started and participated in one myself. But when I see an example of people doing what they want to do regardless of warnings and speed-bumps and preventative measures, it just goes to show you can't beat stupid and you can't force smart. A simple warning that you may be screwing something up is probably the best approach. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?
When you make an edit on the image and you export it, the JPEG doesn't disappear and the edited image still shows in the image window. It's that you want to see the _exported_ JPEG file to confirm the export resulted in the JPEG file you wanted to create for the client I think you're thinking you have to re-open the exported JPEG file in GIMP to make more edits is causing some confusion. Not exactly, no, the edited image that is now on my screen, the xcf, is probably a resolution of 300 x 300 and may be a print size of 12 x 16; But the exported image is a resolution of 72 and is not meant for printing. *That* is the one that I have to re-open (because I can't force it not to close when I export.) *That's* the one I have to mail, and if I decided to make a tweak, I can't just save and mail -- I have to export, re-open ... I don't see any way around the repeated reopenings except to make sure everything I do is perfect the first time, and that's even less likely than the developers reconsidering this. Thank you Tom. gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list -- Helen Etters using Linux, suse12.3 ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression
On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:53 PM, Helen wrote: Here are the facts: every time you save your image as JPEG, you lose information. It is by design a lossy image format Exactly! We should not have to keep opening these files! They should stay on my screen until I finish with them. But noone's forcing you to close them. Are you kidding? When I export, it closes! If you know some way that I can keep my .png or .tif or .jpg open after saving it (aka exporting) in that format, please tell us how. It is the new GIMP that is forcing it to close! Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list -- Helen Etters using Linux, suse12.3 ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression
On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 12:14 AM, Helen wrote: Exactly! We should not have to keep opening these files! They should stay on my screen until I finish with them. But noone's forcing you to close them. Are you kidding? Nope. When I export, it closes! It shouldn't and it never did so for me. In fact, I don't think it ever did that for anybody. I don't see a single report like yours. There's something crazy going on with your computer and your copy of GIMP. What happens for just about everybody else is: 1. File Export 2. Specify file name 3. Click 'Export' 4. Contonue working on the picture. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression
On 06/15/2013 01:19 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 12:14 AM, Helen wrote: Exactly! We should not have to keep opening these files! They should stay on my screen until I finish with them. But noone's forcing you to close them. Are you kidding? Nope. When I export, it closes! It shouldn't and it never did so for me. In fact, I don't think it ever did that for anybody. I don't see a single report like yours. There's something crazy going on with your computer and your copy of GIMP. What happens for just about everybody else is: 1. File Export 2. Specify file name 3. Click 'Export' 4. Contonue working on the picture. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ I'm thinking Helen is referring to the JPEG preview window that opens, during the JPEG export process.After the JPEG export is done, the preview window closes since the file's been saved. Peace... Tom -- /When we dance, you have a way with me, Stay with me... Sway with me.../ ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression
Tom Williams (tomd...@comcast.net) wrote: I'm thinking Helen is referring to the JPEG preview window that opens, during the JPEG export process.After the JPEG export is done, the preview window closes since the file's been saved. However, the separate window only shows up when one is working in indexed mode. Which is not what you're doing when you started by opening a JPEG... Not sure what is going on there. Bye, Simon -- si...@budig.de http://simon.budig.de/ ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression
On 15.06.2013 22:21, Tom Williams wrote: On 06/15/2013 01:19 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: There's something crazy going on with your computer and your copy of GIMP. What happens for just about everybody else is: 1. File Export 2. Specify file name 3. Click 'Export' 4. Contonue working on the picture. I'm thinking Helen is referring to the JPEG preview window that opens, during the JPEG export process.After the JPEG export is done, the preview window closes since the file's been saved. That behavior isn't different to previous versions, though... -- Regards, Michael ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 16:12:06 -0400 From: etter...@gmail.com To: tomd...@comcast.net CC: gimp-user-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ? Not exactly, no, the edited image that is now on my screen, the xcf, is probably a resolution of 300 x 300 and may be a print size of 12 x 16; But the exported image is a resolution of 72 and is not meant for printing. *That* is the one that I have to re-open (because I can't force it not to close when I export.) *That's* the one I have to mail, and if I decided to make a tweak, I can't just save and mail -- I have to export, re-open ... I don't see any way around the repeated reopenings except to make sure everything I do is perfect the first time, and that's even less likely than the developers reconsidering this. Thank you Tom. I'm not making any sense of this at all. Image resolution is a piece of metadata and does not in any way dictate the size of the image as measured in actual image pixels. If you open an image whose tags say 300 dpi, when you save (or export) it the output file will contain that 300dpi setting. Now if the image is 12x16 and tagged as 300dpi this means that the image's physical PIXEL dimensions are 3600x4800. And when you export this image to a JPG, that JPG will still be be 3600x4800 pixels large (and tagged as 300dpi) unless you specifically dictated to GIMP otherwise. Going to the Image menu and selecting Resize image... rescales the image to a different size in pixels (but doesn't necessarily change the dpi metadata); selecting Print Size... lets you set the dpi metadata directly, but doesn't change the pixel content of the image. Also, when you export the image to a JPEG, if suddenly your open image window disappears, well that is not supposed to happen at all and sounds something like a GIMP program crash, but we don't have enough information as is to determine that. And when GIMP crashes, you at least get a message telling you in no ambiguous terms that something crashed. -- Stratadrake strata_ran...@hotmail.com Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?
On Fri, 2013-06-14 at 22:37 -0400, Helen wrote: The export feature could have been added without disabling the save as feature. Control-shift-e (export to) works like the old save as for non-xcf formats. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ? [saving undo history]
On 06/16/2013 11:38 AM, Liam R E Quin wrote: On Sat, 2013-06-15 at 08:03 -0700, Richard Gitschlag wrote: Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 11:30:43 +0200 From: schum...@gmx.de To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ? . . . That's not perfect yet - for example, you lose the undo history . . . How often is Undo history ACTUALLY needed by the user, beyond fixing a ten-seconds-ago mistake? I can't personally name a single application that stores undo history with the document's workfile; but if you can, let me know. no-one swims across the river here so we don't need a bridge? I've used commercial software that stored editing history in a database - you can go back through the entire history of most aircraft manuals and see all the edits, for example, for obvious legal reasons. I've many times wished I could save undo history - e.g. I'm experimenting, but my flight is boarding or my battery is low. Liam Think about it. Undo history can actually save some users the hassle of an overlooked mistake. It's there quietly sitting in the corner not really berating the workflow. It's not like it's really affecting a smooth workflow. Archie ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?
On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 12:12 AM, Helen wrote: don't see any way around the repeated reopenings Mmm... There's this difficult to catch bug... Sometimes when there are multiple images opened in the single-window mode, exporting an image that's among the first tabs to the left results in GIMP jumping to the last opened image (rightmost tab). That _could_ give an impression that GIMP closes an image. Is that what's happening? Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?
On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 3:31 PM, Renaud OLGIATI wrote: - Can this behaviour be changed in the configuration of GIMP ? No - If not, what is the latest release of GIMP that behaved in the old (and intuitive) way, so I can go back to that version ? 2.6.11 PS Why do the developpers think we all want to use the .xcf format ? We don't think so. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?
Here we go again . . . . PS Why do the developpers think we all want to use the .xcf format ? It's not like that. It's a change in design from one model to another. The change is beneficial when you ARE working on an XCF file (in the exact same vein as using Photoshop to work on PSD files, e.g. multi-layer digital compositions). Prior to 2.8 when you Saved to something other than an XCF you were constantly warned about things that had to happen (e.g. flattening layers) before GIMP could actually output the file. After that, GIMP lost track of the XCF file, meaning that any subsequent Save commands targetted the most recent (non-XCF ) file and if you didn't manually save back to the XCF file before quitting, you could potentially lose edits. The upside is that Exporting to standard image formats is actually faster in 2.8 than Saving to them was in 2.6 . The downside is that the change is indeed annoying when all you need GMP for is to open up an image, make a few edits then save back to it, because this does not make GIMP consider the image Saved (to an XCF) and you get an extra Save changes? prompt when closing the image. (I also personally disagree with the developer's insistence that GIMP should not give the user an option to switch from the Save dialog to the Export dialogue or vice versa.) But enough of that. Search the mailing list archives sometime and you will find literally thousands of posts on the Save/Export topic (if the search below is to be believed, in fact over THIRTY THOUSAND): http://www.google.com/custom?q=save+exportdomains=mail.gnome.orghq=inurl%3A%2Farchives%2Fsitesearch=mail.gnome.org Try giving it a month or two to mentally adjust to selecting Export instead of Save when you need to output a standard image file format. If you still prefer the old behavior, there are alternatives, such as the noxcf fork that preserves the 2.6-style saving behavior: https://github.com/mskala/noxcf-gimp#readme -- Stratadrake strata_ran...@hotmail.com Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?
Hi Crew, On 14 Jun 13 16:08 Crew p...@wideshots.co.uk said: As a potential new user to The Gimp, I've found the lack of a conventional save command to be TERRIBLE. You're wrong! The problem is NOT a lack of conventional Save command, rather a lack of conventional Import command! The program opens non-native files! That should not happen! It should import them so you are fully aware that you need to export to a non-native format. Greg Chapman http://www.gregtutor.plus.com Helping new users of KompoZer and The GIMP ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?
In case you are not just phishing (which is unlikely, as there are several such emails posted recently:-) Given the way Adobe are moving to a subscription model, there are going to be a lot of new users like myself seriously looking at The Gimp in future. The recent addition of colour management finally moved The Gimp into the realms of being worthy of serious consideration, but trying to make it some sort of exclusive package that works with it's own file formats is just daft. If you can drag and drop an image into the program it should by default save back to the same format. Everything other program works that way, changing that protocol is unintuitive and just daft. If the discussion has had thousands of comments in the past it's pretty clear it's at least contentious. Do the developers of The Gimp want it to be taken seriously ?, or will they be happy just making something non-standard that will make them look foolish. As a potential new user that's how it's looking to me. You're wrong! The problem is NOT a lack of conventional Save command, rather a lack of conventional Import command! The program opens non-native files! That should not happen! It should import them so you are fully aware that you need to export to a non-native format. Helping new users of KompoZer and The GIMP Sorry, I was mistaking The Gimp for a sensible image editing program. If this is the sort of advice given out to new users I can see why The Gimp is regarded so poorly by imaging professionals. Paul Holman www.colourprofiles.com ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?
On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 8:26 PM, Andrew Bridget wrote: Just because a program does not perform the way you would like it to, doesn't make it an inferior program. GIMP is a very powerful Image Editing program that thousands of people use day to day. For every one that states in this forum that it is a regression there is probably as many that like the new behavior that don't post. As it has been said before if you don't like it, use something else, no body makes you use GIMP. Actually, at this point GIMP branded handcuffs that would have export engraved all over them could generate quite a lot of income for the project. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?
On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 8:03 PM, Crew wrote: If the discussion has had thousands of comments in the past it's pretty clear it's at least contentious. There's that old war trick: crawl towards the opposing army in the dark and make as much noise as possible like there's an army of you. I'm sorry you had to crawl, but the noise isn't fooling me. A lot of people are happy with 2.8, the user base is growing. If you are not one of them, it's a pity, but stuff like that happens everywhere, all the time, to all sort of projects. If this is the sort of advice given out to new users I can see why The Gimp is regarded so poorly by imaging professionals. Oh, there are many reasons imaging professionals regard GIMP poorly. Would you like to discuss all of them? :) Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?
On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:21 PM, Renaud OLGIATI wrote: On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 14:28:31 +0200 Since Linux is all in favour of freedom of choice It's just a kernel. Software neither feels, nor judges, nor favours. how about offering the user an export / save choice in the Preferences dialogues ? As already discussed before, the answer is 'no'. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.
You've never heard of Adobe Premiere, Kdenlive, Apple Final Cut, Apple Logic, Audacity, Cubase, Ardour, Blender? That's OK. Now you have Using the examples of video editing packages is rather disingenuous as they are all project based programs that work on the expectation of combining multiple files and outputting in a different format. A very different case. Care to give any examples of the genre of image editing programs that insist on defaulting to working on intermediate formats ? Sometimes it's better to accept a program's development has gone wrong and return it to a more acceptable workflow that matches the expectations of it's users. Paul Holman www.colourprofiles.com ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.
Crew (p...@wideshots.co.uk) wrote: You've never heard of Adobe Premiere, Kdenlive, Apple Final Cut, Apple Logic, Audacity, Cubase, Ardour, Blender? That's OK. Now you have Using the examples of video editing packages is rather disingenuous as they are all project based programs that work on the expectation of combining multiple files and outputting in a different format. A very different case. you mean compared to a project based image manipulation program, which works on the expectation of combining/editing multiple images and outputting in different image formats? Very different indeed :) Bye, Simon -- si...@budig.de http://simon.budig.de/ ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?
On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 21:43:17 +0400 Alexandre Prokoudine alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com wrote: how about offering the user an export / save choice in the Preferences dialogues ? As already discussed before, the answer is 'no'. Why not ? Do I sense here a case of the Microsoft delusion ? (We are Gimp of Borg, resistance is futile...) Cheers, Ron. PS Could anyone kindly point me in the direction of a repository for a Debian amd64 gimp 2.6.12 deb file ? All my search result have sent me to a gimp.org page that says This page is obsolete, please see the downloads page. -- A drama critic is a person who surprises a playwright by informing him what he meant. -- Wilson Mizner -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.
On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:46 PM, Crew wrote: Welcome to Prokoudine' Friday night tour to GIMP, the image editing application that mends broken hearts. You've never heard of Adobe Premiere, Kdenlive, Apple Final Cut, Apple Logic, Audacity, Cubase, Ardour, Blender? That's OK. Now you have Using the examples of video editing packages is rather disingenuous as they are all project based programs So is GIMP. You probably haven't noticed, but it has layers, layer groups and masks. This is called compositing which is, essentially, project based. As the rule. Anywhere. that work on the expectation of combining multiple files So does GIMP. The new image processing core makes it possible to do stuff like hotlinking external bitmaps and SVG files. That's the future. And in both past and present GIMP has that thing called Open As Layer. You might find it useful, although you are probably used to just dropping files on the canvas from your file manager of choice. and outputting in a different format So does GIMP. Drop PNG in, export JPEG. Drop SVG in, export TIFF. Just earlier today at work I had to cut/scale/refine a bunch of JPEGs out of a PDF file. That's outputting different format, all right. Care to give any examples of the genre of image editing programs that insist on defaulting to working on intermediate formats ? As a Linux user, I don't have tons of image editors to try. But hey, I'm quite ready to believe that most of them are doing it wrong :) Sometimes it's better to accept a program's development has gone wrong and return it to a more acceptable workflow that matches the expectations of it's users. And you are exactly the person to judge what users expect, aren't you? :) Let me see. - Filmmakers tell me the new behaviour works great for them and matches their expectations. - 3D artists who produce textures with GIMP tell me the new behaviour is awesome and even want us to take it further. - Designers tell me they just love it (admittedly, not all of them). But what do they know, right? :) I can see how this is going to become yet another boring thread on a tired subject. Please don't count me in. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.
you mean compared to a project based image manipulation program, which works on the expectation of combining/editing multiple images and outputting in different image formats? So you're saying that thinking of The Gimp as an image editing program is wrong then, it need to be primarily regarded as a project based compositing program ? Not sure people coming to it fresh will see it that way. Paul Holman www.colourprofiles.com ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.
On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:11 PM, Crew wrote: you mean compared to a project based image manipulation program, which works on the expectation of combining/editing multiple images and outputting in different image formats? So you're saying that thinking of The Gimp as an image editing program is wrong then, it need to be primarily regarded as a project based compositing program ? That is what we've been saying for the past 7 years. Not sure people coming to it fresh will see it that way. And there are probably better ways to deal with that. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.
On 14/06/2013 19:06, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: As a Linux user, I don't have tons of image editors to try. But hey, I'm quite ready to believe that most of them are doing it wrong:) Right I see now. I write for Linux I don't need to conform to user requirements, I know better The vast majority of photographers DON'T use Linux because there's been nothing credible for them. I'd seriously thought that as colour management had finally arrived in The Gimp things might be changing, but I guess I was wrong. With attitudes like the above it's going to remain a lost cause for years yet. Paul Holman www.colourprofiles.com ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.
On 06/14/13 12:46, Crew wrote: You've never heard of Adobe Premiere, Kdenlive, Apple Final Cut, Apple Logic, Audacity, Cubase, Ardour, Blender? That's OK. Now you have Using the examples of video editing packages is rather disingenuous as they are all project based programs that work on the expectation of combining multiple files and outputting in a different format. A very different case. Care to give any examples of the genre of image editing programs that insist on defaulting to working on intermediate formats ? Sometimes it's better to accept a program's development has gone wrong and return it to a more acceptable workflow that matches the expectations of it's users. Paul Holman www.colourprofiles.com ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list Agreed 100%, also do not know why Audacity is in there. I expect audio to be saved in Audacity in wav file format (which is what it does), with a project file in some Audacity-specific format (which it does) and then when I'm done on the project, to export it to something other than wav (which I knew it would be in to start with). Totally different expectations then we have had for GIMP for over 10 years now. I'm getting used to the change, but I still do not like it one bit and it is still an interruption to the normal flow of work (open, edit, save, close, done). Now it's Open/import, edit, export, make sure image actually saved, close - dismissing any useless dialogue boxes because GIMP now works differently then it has for 10 years. -- Yours in Christ, Joseph A Nagy Jr Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge, But he who hates correction is stupid. -- Proverbs 12:1 Emails are not formal business letters, whatever businesses may want. Original content CopyFree (F) under the OWL http://copyfree.org/licenses/owl/license.txt ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.
On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:41 PM, Joseph A. Nagy, Jr wrote: Agreed 100%, also do not know why Audacity is in there. I expect audio to be saved in Audacity in wav file format (which is what it does) Which is what it does not. Audacity famously saves only project data and exports everything else. And yes, that includes WAV. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.
On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:20 PM, Crew wrote: On 14/06/2013 19:06, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: As a Linux user, I don't have tons of image editors to try. But hey, I'm quite ready to believe that most of them are doing it wrong:) Right I see now. I write for Linux I don't need to conform to user requirements, I know better You are not users, Paul. You are a user. Singular noun, not a plural noun. Besides, you conveniently ignored the part where I list the kind of pro users who love the new behaviour. Of course, they don't support your opinion, so they should be dismissed. Is that what's happening? You tell me :) The vast majority of photographers DON'T use Linux because there's been nothing credible for them. It's amazing that there are people who actually believe that. What's next? Great product doesn't need advertizing? There are all sorts of reasons the vast majority of anybody doesn't do something. Picking one single reason and claiming it's _the_ reason is an insult to intelligence. I'd seriously thought that as colour management had finally arrived in The Gimp things might be changing, but I guess I was wrong. Color management arrived to GIMP in v2.4 that was released years and years ago. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.
Meant to send to list the first time, more non-standard behavior. On 06/14/13 13:43, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:41 PM, Joseph A. Nagy, Jr wrote: Agreed 100%, also do not know why Audacity is in there. I expect audio to be saved in Audacity in wav file format (which is what it does) Which is what it does not. Audacity famously saves only project data and exports everything else. And yes, that includes WAV. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list You must not use Audacity, then. I happen to use it on a regular basis. All the project file does is point to all the wav's it creates as it records. Delete those wav's you lose your project. The .aup is just an xml file. Care to try again? -- Yours in Christ, Joseph A Nagy Jr Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge, But he who hates correction is stupid. -- Proverbs 12:1 Emails are not formal business letters, whatever businesses may want. Original content CopyFree (F) under the OWL http://copyfree.org/licenses/owl/license.txt ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.
On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:52 PM, Joseph A. Nagy, Jr jnagyjr1...@gmail.com wrote: You must not use Audacity, then. Yeah, well, you know how it is... I actually use Ardour for my audio stuff. That's basically the reason I quitted the Audacity team a few years ago after having been part of it for, ugh, 8 years? Something like that, yes. But hey, I'm open to all new information about the project's evolution. So they merged saving and exporting? I happen to use it on a regular basis. All the project file does is point to all the wav's it creates as it records. Delete those wav's you lose your project. The .aup is just an xml file. No, they didn't after all :) You comment is rather irrelevant to the dicussion. Let me explain you why. The controversy is about the fact that GIMP v2.8 doesn't allow to save stuff back directly into the original PNG/JPEG/TIFF/whatever file and only saves to XCF which is project data. In terms of Audacity that would be like complaining that Audacity can open MP3, but cannot save it back directly. Which is exactly what it does: it tells you to export your stuff. That its project file is XML-based is simply not the point. And trust me, Audacity team used to be sweared at for this design decision. With F-word, M-word, and an exciting variety of A-words. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.
On 14/06/2013 19:47, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: The vast majority of photographers DON'T use Linux because there's been nothing credible for them. It's amazing that there are people who actually believe that. Why would you believe anything else ? Do you see any support from the likes of Canon, Nikon, Sony, Pentax etc ? You might notice from my signature that I run a printer profiling business. Over the last ten years we've built profiles for thousands of photographers and design companies. Throughout that time we've kept records of OS use to provide usage instructions. In all that time it's worked out at roughly a third use Macs, two thirds use Windows and just one person used Linux. That sort of proportion is in keeping with what people are using on the big photo forums like Luminous Landscape, Fred Miranda, DPReview etc. Linux is fine for some applications, but for photography ? it's made no significant impact. It's great that The Gimp has been ported to Windows, but in order for it to be taken seriously it has to develop and work in a sensible way. Paul Holman www.colourprofiles.com ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.
On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 12:27 AM, Crew wrote: The vast majority of photographers DON'T use Linux because there's been nothing credible for them. It's amazing that there are people who actually believe that. Why would you believe anything else ? Because I have a brain and I happen to use it for its primary function which is thinking. Consider this statement of yours: That sort of proportion is in keeping with what people are using on the big photo forums like Luminous Landscape, Fred Miranda, DPReview etc. Now, the first thing a person of an analytical persuasion would ask is: is the choice for Win/Mac and proprietary software an informed one? In a world where people still think that GIMP is a strictly multiwindow application and there's no color management on Linux, are you, Paul Holman, owner (?) of www.colourprofiles.com, prepared to testify that you personally interviewed each of your clients and each visitor of those said forums, and as the result of that study you found out that yes indeed -- all of them are informed about their options on Linux, more or less follow the progress of GIMP and darktable, but simply don't find them good enough? A simple 'yes' or 'no' would suffice. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.
Every time people insist on cluttering the list up with weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth over Save vs. Export, it is... A Sad Case Of Regression :o/ Steve ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.
Actually I know nobody who likes the new distinction between save and export. But the whole discussion seems to be at a point of no return anyway and developers seem to defend the change as a matter of principle rather than aiming for maximum usability, so it seems quite improbable anything will change. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.
On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 8:47 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:20 PM, Crew wrote: On 14/06/2013 19:06, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: As a Linux user, I don't have tons of image editors to try. But hey, I'm quite ready to believe that most of them are doing it wrong:) Right I see now. I write for Linux I don't need to conform to user requirements, I know better You are not users, Paul. You are a user. Singular noun, not a plural noun. Excuse me, Alexandre, but you're being DISMISSIVE AS HELL here. No matter how big your love for the project, swashbuckling rethoric, and your own ego, saying You're just an user, not users when people disagree with you by the bucketload, dismissing someone because oh you're just one! is called BEING ARROGANT. ARROGANT. ARROGANT. ARROGANT. I know typing it three more times won't allow you to wrap your head around it, but what the hell. I'm not saying this guy is right, but your holier than thou attitude is corrosive and self-satisfied. You probably think it's charismatic or something. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.
On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 1:55 AM, Psiweapon wrote: Excuse me, Alexandre, but you're being DISMISSIVE AS HELL here. Yes, I am. I'm not saying this guy is right, but your holier than thou attitude is corrosive and self-satisfied. Oh, not holier :) Just smarter. And I can prove that. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.
On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 12:02 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 1:55 AM, Psiweapon wrote: Excuse me, Alexandre, but you're being DISMISSIVE AS HELL here. Yes, I am. I'm not saying this guy is right, but your holier than thou attitude is corrosive and self-satisfied. Oh, not holier :) Just smarter. And I can prove that. Are you sure? I'm not saying you're not, but you'd need *his *credentials too to prove that. Oh, and being smarter doesn't make you a better person. Your smarter than you is still corrosive and self-satisfied. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.
On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 2:09 AM, Psiweapon wrote: I'm not saying this guy is right, but your holier than thou attitude is corrosive and self-satisfied. Oh, not holier :) Just smarter. And I can prove that. Are you sure? I'm not saying you're not, but you'd need *his *credentials too to prove that. Yeah, I'm working on that :) Oh, and being smarter doesn't make you a better person. Your smarter than you is still corrosive and self-satisfied. You see, I never claimed to be a good person. I'm not even remotely interested in looking like one. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.
On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com wrote: Oh, and being smarter doesn't make you a better person. Your smarter than you is still corrosive and self-satisfied. You see, I never claimed to be a good person. I'm not even remotely interested in looking like one. Alexandre Prokoudine It's too bad I can't force quit a list thread like I can processes. At any rate this discussion is stale. Quit the whimpering and Alexandre enough of the attitude. SAM ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.
On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 12:16 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 2:09 AM, Psiweapon wrote: I'm not saying this guy is right, but your holier than thou attitude is corrosive and self-satisfied. Oh, not holier :) Just smarter. And I can prove that. Are you sure? I'm not saying you're not, but you'd need *his *credentials too to prove that. Yeah, I'm working on that :) Now that sounds horribly underhanded. Oh, and being smarter doesn't make you a better person. Your smarter than you is still corrosive and self-satisfied. You see, I never claimed to be a good person. I'm not even remotely interested in looking like one. Your lack of interest and claim on the issue doesn't make it any less of a shortcoming. Hey, wait. I *am* acting holier than thou. My apologies :X So. You only take feedback from the elite? Honest question. I can understand that the extent of the *undying backlash* is probably a pain in the ass, although I wouldn't be surprised AT ALL if it was completely beneath you... You just come across as some sort of self-appointed boyar, which I'd expect from a mainstream software corporate honcho - not from an open software big fish. *It's too bad I can't force quit a list thread like I can processes. At any rate this discussion is stale. Quit the whimpering and Alexandre enough of the attitude.* Okay. I'll shut up now. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.
On 06/14/2013 02:47 PM, Eduard Braun wrote: Actually I know nobody who likes the new distinction between save and export. But the whole discussion seems to be at a point of no return anyway and developers seem to defend the change as a matter of principle rather than aiming for maximum usability, so it seems quite improbable anything will change. Hey Eduard, I'm Tom and it's a pleasure to meet you! :) I've been a long time GIMP user and the new save/export behavior was a surprise to me as well, but I actually like the new behavior since I tend to save in XCF format more frequently, which prevents me from making accidental mistakes. In the past, I would open an image file, forget to save it as a XCF file first, make some changes to it, save the file (either clobbering the original or saving it as a new file), and then later regret NOT saving to XCF format because I would want to make further modifications later or to find out which font I had used, if I added text, etc. The new behavior forces me to be more conscious about my saving action, which I think is a good thing. I also agree with adding a setting to control the save behavior, so users can choose which method suits them best. With regard to all the discussion about Linux in all this, we can't forget the numbers of people who use GIMP on Windows and the Freedom of Linux doesn't relate to that platform. As for Audacity, I'm running Audacity 2.0.3 on Ubuntu 13.04 Linux (64-bit) right now. I have a MP3 audio file loaded and when I click the File menu, the save options are Save Project, Save Project As, and Save Compressed Copy of Project. Then, I have two Export options, Export and Export Multiple. I made a change to the audio track and tried to close Audacity and it prompted me to save the project (.AUP) file and stated if I wanted to save in another audio format, I must use the File Export function. Maybe Audacity on Windows behaves differently. Peace... Tom -- /When we dance, you have a way with me, Stay with me... Sway with me.../ ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.
Like Tom, the change from Save to Export was a bit of a surprise to me as well. Over time, I got used to it. Once you think about it, it actually makes more sense to use this method than it does the previous method. Just my two cents :) p.s. People should really stop arguing about this. It has been discussed many times before, and has always yielded the same outcome; the change will remain and you'll just have to get used to it. Sent from my iPod On Jun 14, 2013, at 6:38 PM, Tom Williams tomd...@comcast.net wrote: On 06/14/2013 02:47 PM, Eduard Braun wrote: Actually I know nobody who likes the new distinction between save and export. But the whole discussion seems to be at a point of no return anyway and developers seem to defend the change as a matter of principle rather than aiming for maximum usability, so it seems quite improbable anything will change. Hey Eduard, I'm Tom and it's a pleasure to meet you! :) I've been a long time GIMP user and the new save/export behavior was a surprise to me as well, but I actually like the new behavior since I tend to save in XCF format more frequently, which prevents me from making accidental mistakes. In the past, I would open an image file, forget to save it as a XCF file first, make some changes to it, save the file (either clobbering the original or saving it as a new file), and then later regret NOT saving to XCF format because I would want to make further modifications later or to find out which font I had used, if I added text, etc. The new behavior forces me to be more conscious about my saving action, which I think is a good thing. I also agree with adding a setting to control the save behavior, so users can choose which method suits them best. With regard to all the discussion about Linux in all this, we can't forget the numbers of people who use GIMP on Windows and the Freedom of Linux doesn't relate to that platform. As for Audacity, I'm running Audacity 2.0.3 on Ubuntu 13.04 Linux (64-bit) right now. I have a MP3 audio file loaded and when I click the File menu, the save options are Save Project, Save Project As, and Save Compressed Copy of Project. Then, I have two Export options, Export and Export Multiple. I made a change to the audio track and tried to close Audacity and it prompted me to save the project (.AUP) file and stated if I wanted to save in another audio format, I must use the File Export function. Maybe Audacity on Windows behaves differently. Peace... Tom -- /When we dance, you have a way with me, Stay with me... Sway with me.../ ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.
On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 1:12 AM, Crew wrote: is the choice for Win/Mac and proprietary software an informed one? Yes. Wrong answer. See below. You might not like the information they made their choices on, but it's not entirely random. Finally you made a statement that makes some sort of sense :) Again, see below. In a world where people still think that GIMP is a strictly multiwindow application and there's no color management on Linux, are you, Paul Holman, owner (?) ofwww.colourprofiles.com, prepared to testify that you personally interviewed each of your clients and each visitor of those said forums, and as the result of that study you found out that yes indeed -- all of them are informed about their options on Linux, more or less follow the progress of GIMP and darktable, but simply don't find them good enough? A simple 'yes' or 'no' would suffice. No. As I said, all I ask is what OS they use to provide installation instructions. That tells me what software they actually use, not why or how they arrived at that choice it's not relevant to the information I need. So you don't know why they made their decisions, but you nevertheless claim that the decisions were informed. That's pretty amazing. How can you make this kind of statement and still feel like a rational, intelligent human being? Now, allow me to explain what's wrong with your approach. There's this widely popular claim that a great product sells itself. While there is some truth to it, in reality markets don't work like that. If you study some trendy market like, um, let's say, mobile apps, you'll see that for many categories it's close to impossible to get anywhere near TOP10 with a new product. You've got to have something truly outstanding that goes viral. And you have to be able to maintain public's interest -- that's an important bit, you'll see in a while. If you study the online advertizing market (which is my professional background), you'll see pretty much the same picture: you can't suddenly become competitive against e.g. big retailers. You need to find a different way to get to your audience, and it still takes time, money, and human resources. But let's get back to our niche. Case in point: there's a number of advanced image editors like Photoline (http://www.pl32.com/) that have all those fancy things like high bit depth precision, CMYK, vector layers and suchlike. But they never have a wide adoption. Why? - Is that software unusable? - Maybe more expensive than Photoshop? - Or the developers are so arrogant that they annoy their users? :) Nope. While features, social aptness etc. have a share in the general effect, at some point it's marketing that becomes decisive. Here's an example: http://www.google.com/trends/explore?q=mypaint#q=mypaintcmpt=q See that first spike around August 2009 after which the public's interest towards that free painting application started rapidly growing? Here's the reason: http://www.sintel.org/videos/tutorial-painting-time-lapse-by-david-revoy/ Blender Foundation's open movie projects typically draw a lot of interest, so the video demonstrating MyPaint (used along with Alchemy and GIMP) went viral. Take another look at that graph. You'll see another huge spike in Nov-Dec 2011. Here's the reason: http://mypaint.intilinux.com/?p=621 v1.0 releases are traditionaly regarded as a symbol of software becoming mature. So MyPaint 1.0 got quite a few coverages online which ensured that interest spike. Not mentioning a bunch of useful features in that release. Now, why are those spikes so spiky? Why is all that interest so rapidly lost? Is MyPaint a horrible software, and the interest is accidental with a bit of vapourware flavour? No, people make quite amazing artworks with MyPaint, and it doesn't more time than in, er, conventional software. So how come? The reason is that the community isn't yet capable of producing those amazing artworks _every day_ in an amount that would stand anywhere close to the amount of artworks people create with Photoshop or Corel Painter. Free software projects do not have huge marketing teams (up to 50% of employees in some cases, I'm not kidding you). They don't have the funds to hire artists, do roadshows etc. Bottomline: they cannot ensure stable visibility online. A huge percent of Blender's success can be attributed to websites like blendernation.com, blenderguru.com and blendercookie.com whose maintainers had either the guts or the funds to maintain that interest towards the software. And yet there's still plenty of 3D artists who never even tried Blender, while having heard all sorts of good things about that. A lot of those people only found out about it, because websites like 3DMag occasionally post artworks made with Blender -- like 4-5 times a year. Still with me? (I'd be surprised, but stranger things happen.) I spend up to 20 hours weekly just looking through artworks people do with GIMP, Inkscape, MyPaint, Krita,
Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?
Andrew Bridget A remark such as if you don't like it, don't use it is rude and unhelpful, and such remarks should never appear on this list. I've stayed out of the discussion of this regression -- I hate the change to-- but I appeal for courtesy to those who care enough to try to communicate the problems this is causing. And it is causing so many problems for me that I'm wondering if it's going to be a game breaker. I work with agents for my art galleries. One of my agents wants everything sent as jpeg so I send her what she wants. One wants .tif so I send her what she wants. Juried exhibits ask for jpeg (I don't know why) but this change adds hours to a job that should take me half an hour. Helen On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 12:26 PM, Andrew Bridget andrew_brid...@btinternet.com wrote: Just because a program does not perform the way you would like it to, doesn't make it an inferior program. GIMP is a very powerful Image Editing program that thousands of people use day to day. For every one that states in this forum that it is a regression there is probably as many that like the new behavior that don't post. As it has been said before if you don't like it, use something else, no body makes you use GIMP. On 14/06/2013 17:03, Crew wrote: In case you are not just phishing (which is unlikely, as there are several such emails posted recently:-) Given the way Adobe are moving to a subscription model, there are going to be a lot of new users like myself seriously looking at The Gimp in future. The recent addition of colour management finally moved The Gimp into the realms of being worthy of serious consideration, but trying to make it some sort of exclusive package that works with it's own file formats is just daft. If you can drag and drop an image into the program it should by default save back to the same format. Everything other program works that way, changing that protocol is unintuitive and just daft. If the discussion has had thousands of comments in the past it's pretty clear it's at least contentious. Do the developers of The Gimp want it to be taken seriously ?, or will they be happy just making something non-standard that will make them look foolish. As a potential new user that's how it's looking to me. You're wrong! The problem is NOT a lack of conventional Save command, rather a lack of conventional Import command! The program opens non-native files! That should not happen! It should import them so you are fully aware that you need to export to a non-native format. Helping new users of KompoZer and The GIMP Sorry, I was mistaking The Gimp for a sensible image editing program. If this is the sort of advice given out to new users I can see why The Gimp is regarded so poorly by imaging professionals. Paul Holman www.colourprofiles.com __**_ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/**mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-**listhttps://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list __**_ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/**mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-**listhttps://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list -- Helen Etters using Linux, suse12.3 -- Helen Etters using Linux, suse12.3 ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?
On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:57 PM, Helen etter...@gmail.com wrote: Ron said: Since Linux is all in favour of freedom of choice, how about offering the user an export / save choice in the Preferences dialogues ? I wish to endorse this. The export feature could have been added without disabling the save as feature. And I, also, have tried to go back to gimp 2.6, but now that I have upgraded to suse 12.3, gimp 2.6 will not work with the latest suse gtk Helen On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Renaud OLGIATI ren...@olgiati-in-paraguay.org wrote: On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 14:28:31 +0200 Uniklaps uni.kl...@t-online.de wrote: When you open a jpg-file in GIMP 2.8 and make changes and save this again as jpg, you cannot re-change the changes you made (if file is closed). If changes are not necessary, GIMP can save as tif or jpg. (But are you always sure, that your work is perfect?) Saving the jpg you worked with as an GIMP xcf-file you can open it again and continue your work or go back to changes you made. With an jpg this is not possible. But: You should be familiar to the GIMP - feature layers Let us put it this way: If I thought I might want to undo/modify changes later, I would Save As (or Save As Copy) in .xcf; but when I load a .jpg, work on it, and Save, I know that I wont be able to undo changes, and I expect the saved file to replace the original one, not to have the original left untouched and something completely different saved. Andrew Bridget andrew_brid...@btinternet.com wrote: Just because a program does not perform the way you would like it to, doesn't make it an inferior program. No, but it makes it more difficult, and less appealing, to use. As it has been said before if you don't like it, use something else, no body makes you use GIMP. I like GIMP, have liked it for fourteen years; I just dont like GIMP 2.8, Alexandre Prokoudine alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com wrote: - If not, what is the latest release of GIMP that behaved in the old (and intuitive) way, so I can go back to that version ? 2.6.11 I will be now be looking for the 2.6.11 package since you kindly tols me it is free from that export/save sillyness. radar.ma...@free.fr wrote: but if Gimp is made easier and safer for most of people, let's trust our contributors. Since Linux is all in favour of freedom of choice, how about offering the user an export / save choice in the Preferences dialogues ? Cheers, Ron. -- Il est dangereux d'avoir raison dans des choses où des hommes accrédités ont tort. -- Voltaire -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list -- Helen Etters using Linux, suse12.3 -- Helen Etters using Linux, suse12.3 ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.
So you're saying that thinking of The Gimp as an image editing program is wrong then, it need to be primarily regarded as a project based compositing program ? That is what we've been saying for the past 7 years. GIMP= Gnu Image Manipulation Program. Right? -- Helen Etters using Linux, suse12.3 ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?
On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 6:34 AM, Helen wrote: Andrew Bridget A remark such as if you don't like it, don't use it is rude and unhelpful, and such remarks should never appear on this list. I've stayed out of the discussion of this regression -- I hate the change to-- but I appeal for courtesy to those who care enough to try to communicate the problems this is causing. And it is causing so many problems for me that I'm wondering if it's going to be a game breaker. I work with agents for my art galleries. One of my agents wants everything sent as jpeg so I send her what she wants. One wants .tif so I send her what she wants. Juried exhibits ask for jpeg (I don't know why) but this change adds hours to a job that should take me half an hour. Helen, That doesn't sound right. What does workflow look like? Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?
On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 7:14 AM, Helen wrote: My agent sends a jpg of the card she plans to mail out, asking me to edit. I edit, save to jpg becasue tha's what she wants, and it has now disappeared off my screen. Why did it disappear off your screen? Why do you reopen it? This new requirement that I keep exporting and re-opening jpg files Helen, there is no such requirement. You absolutely don't need to reopen anything. When you export a file to JPEG from GIMP, you get the same dialog with a checkbox that lets you preview how quality setting affects the final image. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ gimp-user-list mailing list gimp-user-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
