Re: [Gimp-user] Are these bugs? Missing/duped menu mnemonics non-working keystrokes (per menus)
On Tue, 05 May 2009 18:36:00 -0700, bgw wrote: In my system, ALT E followed by a letter seems to select an entry whose first character is that letter: Paste, Paste as, and Preferences. IMHO, this should count as a bug - mnemonics should be unique, and every item should have a mnemonic (which isn't necessarily the first letter). -- Jernej Simončič http://eternallybored.org/ ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Are these bugs? Missing/duped menu mnemonics non-working keystrokes (per menus)
Uhm, you can change your mnemonics or keyboard shortcuts Edit Preferences Interface Configure Keyboard Shortcuts... and just take care of it for yourself. There's not really a reason for that to be a bug when it's fully configurable. 2009/5/6 Jernej Simončič jernej.listso...@ena.si On Tue, 05 May 2009 18:36:00 -0700, bgw wrote: In my system, ALT E followed by a letter seems to select an entry whose first character is that letter: Paste, Paste as, and Preferences. IMHO, this should count as a bug - mnemonics should be unique, and every item should have a mnemonic (which isn't necessarily the first letter). -- Jernej Simon+AQ0-i+AQ0- http://eternallybored.org/ ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user -- Nathan Lane Home, http://www.nathandelane.com Blog, http://nathandelane.blogspot.com ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Are these bugs? Missing/duped menu mnemonics non-working keystrokes (per menus)
As an update, I don't see that any keyboard shortcuts are set to Alt+E in my keyboard shortcuts default list. Naturally because the Edit menu has the mnemonic E and Alt refers directly to the menu system in Windows (I don't know what OS you are using), I expect Alt+E to open the Edit menu. In the Edit menu, I do see that three items have P underlined, but Alt+P does not affect them, and both Paste and Paste As sub items have their keyboard shortcuts. Preferences does not have a keyboard shortcut listed next to it, but I can just as easily use my arrow buttons or mouse to open that item. I don't understand the complaint fully. 2009/5/6 Nathan Lane nathamberl...@gmail.com Uhm, you can change your mnemonics or keyboard shortcuts Edit Preferences Interface Configure Keyboard Shortcuts... and just take care of it for yourself. There's not really a reason for that to be a bug when it's fully configurable. 2009/5/6 Jernej Simončič jernej.listso...@ena.si On Tue, 05 May 2009 18:36:00 -0700, bgw wrote: In my system, ALT E followed by a letter seems to select an entry whose first character is that letter: Paste, Paste as, and Preferences. IMHO, this should count as a bug - mnemonics should be unique, and every item should have a mnemonic (which isn't necessarily the first letter). -- Jernej Simon+AQ0-i+AQ0- http://eternallybored.org/ ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user -- Nathan Lane Home, http://www.nathandelane.com Blog, http://nathandelane.blogspot.com -- Nathan Lane Home, http://www.nathandelane.com Blog, http://nathandelane.blogspot.com ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Are these bugs? Missing/duped menu mnemonics non-working keystrokes (per menus)
On 05/06/2009 12:01 PM, Nathan Lane wrote: As an update, I don't see that any keyboard shortcuts are set to Alt+E in my keyboard shortcuts default list. Naturally because the Edit menu has the mnemonic E and Alt refers directly to the menu system in Windows (I don't know what OS you are using), I expect Alt+E to open the Edit menu. In the Edit menu, I do see that three items have P underlined, but Alt+P does not affect them, and both Paste and Paste As sub items have their keyboard shortcuts. Preferences does not have a keyboard shortcut listed next to it, but I can just as easily use my arrow buttons or mouse to open that item. I don't understand the complaint fully. 2009/5/6 Nathan Lane nathamberl...@gmail.com mailto:nathamberl...@gmail.com Uhm, you can change your mnemonics or keyboard shortcuts Edit Preferences Interface Configure Keyboard Shortcuts... and just take care of it for yourself. There's not really a reason for that to be a bug when it's fully configurable. 2009/5/6 Jernej Simončič jernej.listso...@ena.si mailto:jernej.listso...@ena.si On Tue, 05 May 2009 18:36:00 -0700, bgw wrote: In my system, ALT E followed by a letter seems to select an entry whose first character is that letter: Paste, Paste as, and Preferences. IMHO, this should count as a bug - mnemonics should be unique, and every item should have a mnemonic (which isn't necessarily the first letter). -- Jernej Simon+AQ0-i+AQ0- http://eternallybored.org/ Nathan, 1) Edit, Preferences does have a mnemonic of p (the p is underlined). While not a keyboard shortcut, it is in the category of a productivity enhancer because one goal is to avoid having to use a mouse. Mice just slow down most things -- and cause health problems. 2) The problem is that ALT+e p (hold ALT while typing e, then type a p by itself) results in ONE of THREE different things happening depending upon whether or not you have done that action previously or not (it cycles through the three possibilities) in that session of editing that image. The way that this is supposed to work is that one should be able to do such actions *without looking* at the monitor to see what the status is. In other words, one should be able to type ALT+e p and *every* time get the exact same result without regard to whether or not you have done that action previously in that session of editing that image. Have to look watch be careful is not productive and causes lots of errors. 3) As to your comment that because you can configure something to correct undesired behavior it is not a bug... I do *not* accept that. That would be like saying though a program crashes without special configuration, if you do some special configuration it won't crash, thus the crashing is not a bug. While my comparison is extreme, I respectfully submit that this not a bug because... approach to thinking about it is a *huge* reason why non-technical folks find so much open-source software to be not ready for the desktop. We, who are interested in moving forward the spread of open-source software, should be paying very close attention to the ORDINARY USER EXPERIENCE and we should be doing everything we can to make things work extremely smoothly right out of the box. We should not dumb down software, but we sure should try everything possible to make it work smoothly and in an expected, repeatable manner. Just my opinion! Jay ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Are these bugs? Missing/duped menu mnemonics non-working keystrokes (per menus)
On Wed, 6 May 2009 09:53:40 -0600, Nathan Lane wrote: Uhm, you can change your mnemonics or keyboard shortcuts Mnemonics and keyboard shortcuts are two different things. Mnemonics are the underlined letters on controls, which are normally activated by pressing Alt+that letter (menus being an exception - mnemonics there are activated simply by pressing the underlined letter). You can't activate a mnemonic you don't see on screen. -- Jernej Simončič http://eternallybored.org/ ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Are these bugs? Missing/duped menu mnemonics non-working keystrokes (per menus)
Using Gimp 2.6.6 on Ubuntu 8.04 (Hardy) Linux. on K Desktop Environment 3.5.10 I would like to check with others whether or not these issues are unique to me, my installation, or my desktop environment If they are bugs, I will report them or others are welcome to do so (but please tell me if you do). 1) Missing mnemonics on menus. For example, under FILE, Create has no labeled mnemonic. 2) Duplicated mnemonics on menus. For example, under EDIT, the letter p is used ***THREE*** times, making it useless in a production environment. As long as the same image is open, doing ALT e p cycles through the the three occurrences of the p mnemonic. If it is the first time with the image, then it always goes to the first occurrence. Very obnoxious! 3) Misdirected mnemonics. (This one may be a lack of understanding of menu mnemonics on my part.) ALT e p [!!! may have to hit p multiple times to arrive at the correct desired location of PASTE AS] to get to PASTE AS. This exposes the fly-out/sub-menu. The sub-menu includes NEW IMAGE with a mnemonic of n. However, typing an n at this moment does not utilize the fly-out menu, it goes to UNITS on the main EDIT menu. What is the point of having a mnemonic on the flyout/sub-menu if you can't access them without using the arrow keys to get into the flyout/sub-menu by which time you are focused on the desired item anyway and can just hit return. 4) Non-functioning keystrokes / keyboard shortcut listed on the menus. Specifically for me at the moment, CTRL SHIFT V is supposed to create a new file from the clipboard contents. This set of keystrokes is stated in TWO places: FILE, CREATE, FROM CLIPBOARD and EDIT, PASTE AS, NEW IMAGE Both should accomplish the same thing, but on my system, it does nothing at all. This is really annoying because tomorrow I have to have a staff member use this functionality 297 times. Argh! (Yes, I know that as long as we use keystrokes to get to the menu, we can walk though it using the arrow keys. It is just annoying.) Hi, Let's start off saying that the problem is yours. There is something seriously wrong with your installation. I don't know how far your Ubuntu Hardy 8.04 has been upgraded, but you cannot install 2.6.6 without two major libraries that were not in the 8.04 distribution, and as well, GTK (and GLIB) need to be updated for 2.6.6 to work So perhaps you can explain how you got 2.6.6 onto your 8.04 or, just go the 9.04 route where you won't have these problems. -- Owen ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Are these bugs? Missing/duped menu mnemonics non-working keystrokes (per menus)
I'm using Fedora 10; GIMP 2.6.6. Jay Smith wrote: Using Gimp 2.6.6 on Ubuntu 8.04 (Hardy) Linux. on K Desktop Environment 3.5.10 I would like to check with others whether or not these issues are unique to me, my installation, or my desktop environment If they are bugs, I will report them or others are welcome to do so (but please tell me if you do). 1) Missing mnemonics on menus. For example, under FILE, Create has no labeled mnemonic. I don't understand this problem. 2) Duplicated mnemonics on menus. For example, under EDIT, the letter p is used ***THREE*** times, making it useless in a production environment. As long as the same image is open, doing ALT e p cycles through the the three occurrences of the p mnemonic. If it is the first time with the image, then it always goes to the first occurrence. Very obnoxious! In my system, ALT E followed by a letter seems to select an entry whose first character is that letter: Paste, Paste as, and Preferences. This may not be the best way to choose an action, so I guess it's useless. But what are you trying to accomplish with ALT e p 3) Misdirected mnemonics. (This one may be a lack of understanding of menu mnemonics on my part.) ALT e p [!!! may have to hit p multiple times to arrive at the correct desired location of PASTE AS] to get to PASTE AS. This exposes the fly-out/sub-menu. The sub-menu includes NEW IMAGE with a mnemonic of n. However, typing an n at this moment does not utilize the fly-out menu, it goes to UNITS on the main EDIT menu. What is the point of having a mnemonic on the flyout/sub-menu if you can't access them without using the arrow keys to get into the flyout/sub-menu by which time you are focused on the desired item anyway and can just hit return. When I execute select copy SHIFT+CTRL+p I get a new image with the selection that was on the clipboard. There seems to be no need to index through the various submenus to get there. The keyboard mnemonic is unique. 4) Non-functioning keystrokes / keyboard shortcut listed on the menus. Specifically for me at the moment, CTRL SHIFT V is supposed to create a new file from the clipboard contents. This set of keystrokes is stated in TWO places: FILE, CREATE, FROM CLIPBOARD and EDIT, PASTE AS, NEW IMAGE Both should accomplish the same thing, but on my system, it does nothing at all. In my installation, SHIFT+CTRL+V creates a new image with the clipboard contents, as expected. Not sure how you are getting there from the discussion above. This is really annoying because tomorrow I have to have a staff member use this functionality 297 times. Argh! (Yes, I know that as long as we use keystrokes to get to the menu, we can walk though it using the arrow keys. It is just annoying.) Jay ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Are these bugs? Missing/duped menu mnemonics non-working keystrokes (per menus)
On 05/05/2009 09:35 PM, Owen wrote: Using Gimp 2.6.6 on Ubuntu 8.04 (Hardy) Linux. on K Desktop Environment 3.5.10 I would like to check with others whether or not these issues are unique to me, my installation, or my desktop environment If they are bugs, I will report them or others are welcome to do so (but please tell me if you do). 1) Missing mnemonics on menus. For example, under FILE, Create has no labeled mnemonic. 2) Duplicated mnemonics on menus. For example, under EDIT, the letter p is used ***THREE*** times, making it useless in a production environment. As long as the same image is open, doing ALT e p cycles through the the three occurrences of the p mnemonic. If it is the first time with the image, then it always goes to the first occurrence. Very obnoxious! 3) Misdirected mnemonics. (This one may be a lack of understanding of menu mnemonics on my part.) ALT e p [!!! may have to hit p multiple times to arrive at the correct desired location of PASTE AS] to get to PASTE AS. This exposes the fly-out/sub-menu. The sub-menu includes NEW IMAGE with a mnemonic of n. However, typing an n at this moment does not utilize the fly-out menu, it goes to UNITS on the main EDIT menu. What is the point of having a mnemonic on the flyout/sub-menu if you can't access them without using the arrow keys to get into the flyout/sub-menu by which time you are focused on the desired item anyway and can just hit return. 4) Non-functioning keystrokes / keyboard shortcut listed on the menus. Specifically for me at the moment, CTRL SHIFT V is supposed to create a new file from the clipboard contents. This set of keystrokes is stated in TWO places: FILE, CREATE, FROM CLIPBOARD and EDIT, PASTE AS, NEW IMAGE Both should accomplish the same thing, but on my system, it does nothing at all. This is really annoying because tomorrow I have to have a staff member use this functionality 297 times. Argh! (Yes, I know that as long as we use keystrokes to get to the menu, we can walk though it using the arrow keys. It is just annoying.) OWEN SAID Hi, Let's start off saying that the problem is yours. There is something seriously wrong with your installation. I don't know how far your Ubuntu Hardy 8.04 has been upgraded, but you cannot install 2.6.6 without two major libraries that were not in the 8.04 distribution, and as well, GTK (and GLIB) need to be updated for 2.6.6 to work So perhaps you can explain how you got 2.6.6 onto your 8.04 or, just go the 9.04 route where you won't have these problems. Hi Owen, Thanks. I had no idea that it did not work because other than a couple little niggling things like this it has been working great. We have been keeping the Ubuntu Hardy 8.04 up to date every 5-15 days and have been doing so since about November 2008. I can only assume that the dependency checking stuff grabbed the additional libraries needed if we did not already have them. We run a lot of stuff, and run it hard, on 8.04 and so far everything is working, except for the occasional odd items like I have described. I will inquire further with my guy who maintains the Ubuntu. Jay ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Are these bugs? Missing/duped menu mnemonics non-working keystrokes (per menus)
On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 10:39 AM, Jay Smith j...@jaysmith.com wrote: Using Gimp 2.6.6 on Ubuntu 8.04 (Hardy) Linux. on K Desktop Environment 3.5.10 I would like to check with others whether or not these issues are unique to me, my installation, or my desktop environment If they are bugs, I will report them or others are welcome to do so (but please tell me if you do). 1) Missing mnemonics on menus. For example, under FILE, Create has no labeled mnemonic. See my reply below to 2). Sometimes, there is just not the mnemonic available. I believe that 'Save a _Copy' uses the mnemonic that could otherwise be used for 'Create', and the developers judged that Save a Copy would be used more often than the Create menu. 'e' might be available, though. Please note that you could also press Alt+F, DOWN,RIGHT to enter the Create submenu. Also, if you use the Create submenu a lot, consider tearing it off (rightclick in an image window, then leftclick on the dashed line at the top of a submenu) and using it more directly. 2) Duplicated mnemonics on menus. For example, under EDIT, the letter p is used ***THREE*** times, making it useless in a production environment. As long as the same image is open, doing ALT e p cycles through the the three occurrences of the p mnemonic. If it is the first time with the image, then it always goes to the first occurrence. Very obnoxious! This is very hard to avoid, unfortunately. The edit menu is large, and there are only 26 characters to use as mnemonics (actually other characters like numerics and punctuation are also possible, but usually not used.) I managed to resolve most conflicts in my Lojban translation, however Lojban has better distribution of letters (meaning that the name for some particular action is more likely to contain a uniquely usable character than eg. English). I have looked at this problem before, and concluded that we would have to start using numbers and punctuation as mnemonics in order to avoid significant conflicts. It is already possible to do so, but GIMP avoids this, as do most programs. Keeping in mind that it is impossible to resolve all mnemonic conflicts even in a small menu (due to plugins being able to add menu items which can have mnemonics), if you have a proposition which will resolve most of the current conflicts in a reasonable way, even if this is limited just to the File menu, please enlighten us. 3) Misdirected mnemonics. (This one may be a lack of understanding of menu mnemonics on my part.) ALT e p [!!! may have to hit p multiple times to arrive at the correct desired location of PASTE AS] to get to PASTE AS. This exposes the fly-out/sub-menu. The sub-menu includes NEW IMAGE with a mnemonic of n. However, typing an n at this moment does not utilize the fly-out menu, it goes to UNITS on the main EDIT menu. What is the point of having a mnemonic on the flyout/sub-menu if you can't access them without using the arrow keys to get into the flyout/sub-menu by which time you are focused on the desired item anyway and can just hit return. What the user means at that time is ambiguous. (access 'Units'? or something in the submenu?). Consequently, you need to press Enter first to confirm that you want to move into the submenu rather than access some other item on the same level. 4) Non-functioning keystrokes / keyboard shortcut listed on the menus. Specifically for me at the moment, CTRL SHIFT V is supposed to create CTRL+SHIFT+V, just to be clear. A single, chorded key combination. If this is really not working for you, I do think there is a problem with your installation (or your desktop environment -- see below). The other 3 points you brought up are verifiable. a new file from the clipboard contents. This set of keystrokes is stated in TWO places: FILE, CREATE, FROM CLIPBOARD and EDIT, PASTE AS, NEW IMAGE Both should accomplish the same thing, but on my system, it does nothing at all. This is really annoying because tomorrow I have to have a staff member use this functionality 297 times. Argh! (Yes, I know that as long as we use keystrokes to get to the menu, we can walk though it using the arrow keys. It is just annoying.) All keyboard shortcuts are accurate. If they don't work, chances are you don't actually have something on the clipboard, or you have another program (eg KDE) which is stealing that key combination and preventing GIMP from catching it. Personally, that combination works as expected for me; I just Edit-Copied something, then pressed CTRL+SHIFT+V and a new image window containing what I copied appeared. David ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Are these bugs? Missing/duped menu mnemonics non-working keystrokes (per menus)
On 05/05/2009 09:36 PM, bgw wrote: I'm using Fedora 10; GIMP 2.6.6. Jay Smith wrote: Using Gimp 2.6.6 on Ubuntu 8.04 (Hardy) Linux. on K Desktop Environment 3.5.10 I would like to check with others whether or not these issues are unique to me, my installation, or my desktop environment If they are bugs, I will report them or others are welcome to do so (but please tell me if you do). 1) Missing mnemonics on menus. For example, under FILE, Create has no labeled mnemonic. I don't understand this problem. Hi BGW, In the main menu, under File one of the items is Create. There is no underlined letter in the entry for Create. Thus I can't do something _like_ alt f t (or whatever) to get to the Sub-menu. 2) Duplicated mnemonics on menus. For example, under EDIT, the letter p is used ***THREE*** times, making it useless in a production environment. As long as the same image is open, doing ALT e p cycles through the the three occurrences of the p mnemonic. If it is the first time with the image, then it always goes to the first occurrence. Very obnoxious! In my system, ALT E followed by a letter seems to select an entry whose first character is that letter: Paste, Paste as, and Preferences. It is not selecting the first character. It is selecting the defined mnemonic which is represented by the underlined character. It may be that in your installation the underlining has been turned off under Edit, Preferences, Interface, Keyboard Shortcuts... This may not be the best way to choose an action, so I guess it's useless. But what are you trying to accomplish with ALT e p I agree that having more than one action defined with the same mnemonic is close to useless. In this instance, it is not so much what I am trying to accomplish as it is that I am inquiring if others feel that this is a bug. But, what I am trying to accomplish is a quick way to create a new file using the contents (including SIZE) of a selection in the paste buffer. As addressed below. 3) Misdirected mnemonics. (This one may be a lack of understanding of menu mnemonics on my part.) ALT e p [!!! may have to hit p multiple times to arrive at the correct desired location of PASTE AS] to get to PASTE AS. This exposes the fly-out/sub-menu. The sub-menu includes NEW IMAGE with a mnemonic of n. However, typing an n at this moment does not utilize the fly-out menu, it goes to UNITS on the main EDIT menu. What is the point of having a mnemonic on the flyout/sub-menu if you can't access them without using the arrow keys to get into the flyout/sub-menu by which time you are focused on the desired item anyway and can just hit return. When I execute select copy SHIFT+CTRL+p I get a new image with the selection that was on the clipboard. There seems to be no need to index through the various submenus to get there. The keyboard mnemonic is unique. I don't. What I get is the PATTERNS showing up in the window with the Layers, Channels, Brushes, etc., etc. I am glad that (CTRL+SHIFT+p) works for you, but the menu system specifically, in two places says it is CTRL+SHIFT+V. And that does NOT work for me. 4) Non-functioning keystrokes / keyboard shortcut listed on the menus. Specifically for me at the moment, CTRL SHIFT V is supposed to create a new file from the clipboard contents. This set of keystrokes is stated in TWO places: FILE, CREATE, FROM CLIPBOARD and EDIT, PASTE AS, NEW IMAGE Both should accomplish the same thing, but on my system, it does nothing at all. In my installation, SHIFT+CTRL+V creates a new image with the clipboard contents, as expected. Not sure how you are getting there from the discussion above. Perhaps you have misread some of what I have written above. Or perhaps there is something broken (as Owen suggests) about my installation. This is really annoying because tomorrow I have to have a staff member use this functionality 297 times. Argh! (Yes, I know that as long as we use keystrokes to get to the menu, we can walk though it using the arrow keys. It is just annoying.) Jay ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Are these bugs? Missing/duped menu mnemonics non-working keystrokes (per menus)
A few corrections and additions: On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 11:36 AM, David Gowers 00a...@gmail.com wrote: What the user means at that time is ambiguous. (access 'Units'? or something in the submenu?). Consequently, you need to press Enter first to confirm that you want to move into the submenu rather than access some other item on the same level. Sorry Jay, what I said here is wrong. Right arrow, not Enter. This is really annoying because tomorrow I have to have a staff member use this functionality 297 times. Argh! If your setup is stealing that key combination, remember you can reassign it to something else using the 'Keyboard Shortcuts' dialog, to resolve the conflict. IIRC most of the F-keys have nothing assigned to them, you could probably use one of them. Personally I might assign this to CTRL+SHIFT+Insert (although, note that I have a 99% customized set of keyboard shortcuts, so I have eg. Insert instead of CTRL+V, PageUp instead of CTRL+C, etc.) All keyboard shortcuts are accurate. To clarify -- this is because they are shown based on the keyboard accelerator map, which is exactly what determines which keyboard events activate what actions. David ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
