Re: [Gimp-user] Drawing simple shapes.

2008-04-30 Thread Ben Walker
David Gowers wrote:
 I want to make myself clear, I would support the idea of shape drawing
 tools (box, ellipse, polygon), providing they have the following
 functionality:
 1. Drawing mode+opacity, since it is a paint tool.
 2. Choosing between FG,BG,Pattern, and No fill
 3. Enabling or disabling antialiasing
 4. Enabling or disabling stroking (so you can just quickly draw a
 filled polygon, say, with no edging.)
 5. UI should be based on their respective selection tools -- eg the
 resizing of a box or ellipse, or editing of a polygon, should be
 operated completely identically to their selection counterparts.

 6. These tools are hidden by default (use Tools palette to un/hide or
 reorder tools)

 Point 6 is mainly because.. GIMP is not a drawing program. (much as I
 would like it to be :), I do agree that you should be able to do basic
 drawing of the kind you want in it. I would use these tools myself; I
 acknowledge that I'm not the target audience of the GIMP, nor are you
 apparently (see
 http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_UI_Redesign#product_vision )
   
Personally I have not given this issue a great deal of thought, but if 
you want to attack from the angle of product vision, I think there is a 
clear need for such tools.  Consider the bullet point in the vision that 
states: GIMP is a high-end application for producing icons, graphical 
elements of web pages and art for user interface elements;

Think about the types of tools necessary to create user interface 
elements or graphical elements of web pages.  These types of graphics 
very often are based around fundamental geometric shapes. Sometimes GIMP 
seems confused about its own identity.  It neither wishes to be like 
paintbrush, nor a photo editing program like say Irfanview (not a great 
example), or a pure artistic program like pixia.  It doesn't like to be 
compared with Photoshop, which can do everything but slice bread.  So 
what then is it?

Yes, I understand that is what the vision is all about.  Well, my point 
is, GIMP is supposed to be a high level tool suitable for several 
distinct graphical/artistic endeavors and I don't see why comparisons to 
Paintbrush or any other limited program are all that valuable.  GIMP has 
to be a jack of all trades to meet the vision proposed, you simply can't 
put it in a single category nor be disturbed if it integrates 
functionally across broad boundaries.  The GIMP is not a type of 
program.  Furthermore, you should be cautious in saying what the GIMP 
isn't.  How can you say it is not a drawing program when much of what it 
is meant to do necessarily involves drawing?  If you mean it is not a 
paintbrush clone, then I agree, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't do 
everything paintbrush does.  Whether it does or does not is more or less 
irrelevant since the developers seek to provide some set of general 
functionality, not compare it to other software, and rightfully so.

If you hide a button, you may as well not have it.  Those of us 
comfortable with computers can always find a way to accomplish what we 
need, however tedious or obscure it might be.  The button is not for 
those savvy enough look for it in the tools palette, but for those 
novice users who want to draw a box or ellipse and can't figure out how 
to do it.

IMHO,

Ben
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Re: [Gimp-user] Drawing simple shapes.

2008-04-30 Thread David Gowers
Hi Ben,

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 3:50 PM, Ben Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  functionally across broad boundaries.  The GIMP is not a type of
  program.
Definitely.

  Furthermore, you should be cautious in saying what the GIMP
  isn't.  How can you say it is not a drawing program when much of what it
  is meant to do necessarily involves drawing?  If you mean it is not a
Because it is not a drawing program. MSPaint is a drawing program.
Painter is a drawing program. Krita is a drawing program. Photoshop is
not a drawing program though it allows drawing, and similarly, GIMP is
not a drawing program although it allows drawing.

It's just about focus. And I believe it's fairly clear that GIMP is
focused on editing, not creation.

  paintbrush clone, then I agree, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't do
  everything paintbrush does.  Whether it does or does not is more or less
  irrelevant since the developers seek to provide some set of general
  functionality, not compare it to other software, and rightfully so.

  If you hide a button, you may as well not have it.  Those of us

Please note that the tool would be visible in the menu ('Tools' menu),
so it would still be discoverable.

  comfortable with computers can always find a way to accomplish what we
  need, however tedious or obscure it might be.
  The button is not for
  those savvy enough look for it in the tools palette, but for those
  novice users who want to draw a box or ellipse and can't figure out how
  to do it.
Yes, I agree.
I want the toolbox to automatically adjust icon size to accommodate
the tool icons shown in a reasonable amount of space. This will help
encourage the user to hide tools they don't use, since the icon size
can increase then.
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Re: [Gimp-user] Drawing simple shapes.

2008-04-30 Thread Jason Cipriani
On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 a couple of people wrote:
 Edit - Stroke Selection

This looks like it does exactly what I want, and that makes me happy.
I haven't tried it yet, as I haven't had a chance to mess with GIMP in
a few days. Thanks for telling me about that, though.

I'm reading what you are all saying and I do firmly believe that an
obvious method of drawing primitives would be a reasonable and
beneficial addition to GIMP. Some day in the far, distant future, I
may or may not try to come up with a better suggestion, and I may even
be more than happy to implement it.

Thanks for all your help, and a lively discussion,
Jason
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Re: [Gimp-user] Drawing simple shapes.

2008-04-30 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

On Wed, 2008-04-30 at 09:43 -0400, Jason Cipriani wrote:

 I'm reading what you are all saying and I do firmly believe that an
 obvious method of drawing primitives would be a reasonable and
 beneficial addition to GIMP. 

Have you tried the GFig plug-in yet? It provides an easy method to draw
a variety of shapes with the ability to specify the stroke and fill
type.


Sven


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Re: [Gimp-user] Drawing simple shapes.

2008-04-30 Thread Jason Cipriani
On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 9:59 AM, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Wed, 2008-04-30 at 09:43 -0400, Jason Cipriani wrote:

   I'm reading what you are all saying and I do firmly believe that an
   obvious method of drawing primitives would be a reasonable and
   beneficial addition to GIMP.

  Have you tried the GFig plug-in yet? It provides an easy method to draw
  a variety of shapes with the ability to specify the stroke and fill
  type.

No I have not. I'm looking on the internet now; is this shipped with
the latest version of GIMP? If not, do you know where I can grab it?
(Sorry, GIMP is not installed on the machine I'm using right now). I'm
reading the user manual for it, it looks pretty great.

Jason
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Re: [Gimp-user] Drawing simple shapes.

2008-04-30 Thread Jason Cipriani
I have one other question, now:

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 2:43 AM, David Gowers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Because it is not a drawing program. MSPaint is a drawing program.
  Painter is a drawing program. Krita is a drawing program. Photoshop is
  not a drawing program though it allows drawing, and similarly, GIMP is
  not a drawing program although it allows drawing.

Would you recommend using Krita for image creation? Despite the fact
that image authoring is a point listed in the very first sentence on
gimp.org's main page, and that painting *is* the first bullet point
category on the GIMP info page, from what you say and what I see GIMP
does not actually seem to be the right tool for  producing icons,
graphical elements of web pages and art for user interface elements
-- as it is an image editing application and not a drawing program.
An alternative solution to making drawing tools readily available is
to edit the description on gimp.org and remove any claims that GIMP is
the best tool for drawing these kinds of elements (it's not... I'm not
trying to be too critical just realistic, it is much easier for me to
draw, say, a clean square button in mspaint than it is in GIMP -- on
the other hand GIMP is a great tool for, say, touching up
photographs).

I need a drawing program, but I am unfamiliar with the other tools
that are out there. The next time I boot into Linux I'll probably try
Krita, are there any other good drawing applications you can
recommend?

Thanks,
Jason
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Re: [Gimp-user] Drawing simple shapes.

2008-04-30 Thread David Gowers
Hi Jason,

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 11:32 PM, Jason Cipriani
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 9:59 AM, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Wed, 2008-04-30 at 09:43 -0400, Jason Cipriani wrote:
  
 I'm reading what you are all saying and I do firmly believe that an
 obvious method of drawing primitives would be a reasonable and
 beneficial addition to GIMP.
  
Have you tried the GFig plug-in yet? It provides an easy method to draw
a variety of shapes with the ability to specify the stroke and fill
type.

  No I have not. I'm looking on the internet now; is this shipped with
  the latest version of GIMP? If not, do you know where I can grab it?
  (Sorry, GIMP is not installed on the machine I'm using right now). I'm
  reading the user manual for it, it looks pretty great.

You can find GFig in Filters/Render. It's a little surprising at
first, how you make a change to a shape and it is promptly redrawn on
canvas :)  I was looking for an 'OK' button until I realized this  :)

HTH,
David
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Re: [Gimp-user] Drawing simple shapes.

2008-04-30 Thread Michael J. Hammel
On Wed, 2008-04-30 at 09:55 -0400, Jason Cipriani wrote:
 Would you recommend using Krita for image creation? Despite the fact
 that image authoring is a point listed in the very first sentence on
 gimp.org's main page, and that painting *is* the first bullet point
 category on the GIMP info page, from what you say and what I see GIMP
 does not actually seem to be the right tool for  producing icons,
 graphical elements of web pages and art for user interface elements

I'd have to disagree with this, and my most recent book on the GIMP goes
to some effort to show you why.  There are multiple chapters on
graphical elements for web pages and designing user interface elements.
I didn't cover icons because I'm not particularly good at icons and
don't create them very often.  But I've seen some extremely good icons
developed with the GIMP.

Just because there isn't a one button click box feature doesn't mean
GIMP can't, or shouldn't, be used for this kind of work.  In fact
because it provides lower level access to processes like creating
primitive shapes (specifically paths), it's ideally suited for this type
of work.  
-- 
Michael J. HammelPrincipal Software Engineer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://graphics-muse.org
--
Intaxication: Euphoria at getting a tax refund, which lasts until you 
realize it was your money to start with. 

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Re: [Gimp-user] Drawing simple shapes.

2008-04-29 Thread Jason Cipriani
On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 12:43 PM, Jason Cipriani
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I need to draw a circle and a box, outlined in black, preferably
  without erasing the background underneath the shape. How do I do this?

I found the answer in the FAQ:

Use the elliptical select tool, hold down CTRL key to constrain as
circle, fill the selected area with new color, right click on selected
area, choose SELECT, SHRINK, shrink selection by whatever number of
pixels you want your circle width to be, right click again in selected
area, choose EDIT, CUT. Voila, one beautifully antialased circle.

I have a second question. If how do I draw a box? is a frequently
asked question, why isn't there a draw a box button on the tool
palette in GIMP? Is there some historical reason?

Thanks,
Jason
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Re: [Gimp-user] Drawing simple shapes.

2008-04-29 Thread Jason Cipriani
On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Martin Nordholts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  There are a couple of reaons, some of them partly overlap:
[snip]
  * It is a big UI task to define exactly how drawing tools should work
  and how they should interact with existing tools and workflows in a good
  way.
[snip]

Hypothetically speaking, if somebody were to sit down and try to work
on this in the far, far future, it seems like there would only be two
choices, both of them fairly straightforward (I'm new to gimp but
AFAICT there's no vector-graphics layers so both choices end up with
rasterized shapes).

1) It interacts with everything the same way the paint brush and
pencil do. Draw squares, circles, etc., directly on to current layer.
UI controls are similar to other paint programs... dragging boxes,
etc.

2) It behaves the same way a text layer does. Draw squares, circles,
etc. to new primitive shape layer (or whatever), and they can be
edited, scaled, rotated, whatever afterwards (this gives similar
functionality to vector-based squares and circles and things).

Are both of those choices satisfactory? They seem simple and flow well
with the existing GUI, unless there is something that I'm overlooking.

I ask because if I ever happened to meet the aforementioned
hypothetical person who may work on this feature in the distant
future, I'd like to give them some useful design hints.

Thanks,
Jason
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Re: [Gimp-user] Drawing simple shapes.

2008-04-29 Thread Martin Nordholts
Jason Cipriani wrote:
 Hypothetically speaking, if somebody were to sit down and try to work
 on this in the far, far future, it seems like there would only be two
 choices, both of them fairly straightforward (I'm new to gimp but
 AFAICT there's no vector-graphics layers so both choices end up with
 rasterized shapes).

 1) It interacts with everything the same way the paint brush and
 pencil do. Draw squares, circles, etc., directly on to current layer.
 UI controls are similar to other paint programs... dragging boxes,
 etc.

 2) It behaves the same way a text layer does. Draw squares, circles,
 etc. to new primitive shape layer (or whatever), and they can be
 edited, scaled, rotated, whatever afterwards (this gives similar
 functionality to vector-based squares and circles and things).

   

Thank you for the input.

If someone sits down and writes a detailed specification* that gains
popularity on the gimp-developer mailing list, chances are quite high
that a hacker will eventually implement this. The daunting task is not
writing the implementation itself, the daunting task is figuring out all
the details.

BR,
Martin Nordholts

* An example specification:
http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/No_image_open_specification
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Re: [Gimp-user] Drawing simple shapes.

2008-04-29 Thread Rich



Nathan Lane wrote:
You're right that there aren't vector graphics layers, per se.  
However there are path layers, which can be treated like vector 
although they themselves don't have fill or stroke colors or patterns 
- if you change a path and you want to change the stroke or whatever, 
you have to do it manually.


I've used a plug in for shapes - shape-path-0.91.scm 
http://registry.gimp.org/files/shape-path-0.91.scm


http://registry.gimp.org/node/59

It works great, but the cords and sizing need to be manually entered.
It creates a stroke path using different shapes, with optional fill 
and/or line colors.


Not sure if this would be similar.


Regards
Rich
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Re: [Gimp-user] Drawing simple shapes.

2008-04-29 Thread Michael J. Hammel
On Tue, 2008-04-29 at 14:24 -0400, Jason Cipriani wrote:
 AFAICT there's no vector-graphics layers so both choices end up with
 rasterized shapes).

Paths are vector oriented objects in the GIMP.  They aren't associated
with specific layers so the path is not included directly in compositing
(currently).  There isn't any reason why vector effects (fills, strokes,
etc.) couldn't be applied to the path as some kind of metadata and then
associate a path with a specific layer as part of the compositing
process.

I would think (based on my limited knowledge of the subject) that GEGL
would make this easier in 2.6.

 1) It interacts with everything the same way the paint brush and
 pencil do. Draw squares, circles, etc., directly on to current layer.
 UI controls are similar to other paint programs... dragging boxes,
 etc.

In the current release you could implement a tool that simply drops one
of a set of default shapes into the canvas.  The shapes would be based
on paths.  Essentially this tool is nothing more than a convenience item
for creating a path manually.

This could probably be implemented as a plugin as well, though if you
did that I don't think (but am not sure with 2.4) that you can place
that as an icon in the Toolbox.

FWIW, my GFXShapes plugin will do vector shapes without paths, but you
can save the shapes as presets (re: files).  Presets are not saved as
part of the image file, however.  GFXShapes was written for 2.2 because
I really disliked the interface to GFig at the time.  I think a plugin
or integrated tool based on paths is a better solution now, however.
-- 
Michael J. HammelPrincipal Software Engineer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://graphics-muse.org
--
The Dixie Chicks for President!
 -- Anyone but Bush in 2004 --

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Re: [Gimp-user] Drawing simple shapes.

2008-04-29 Thread David Gowers
On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Jason Cipriani
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Sorry for sending you this twice, Michael. Missed the reply all
  button the first time through.

  One thing I do want to add to what's below is, just to clear it up:
  I'm not pressing for a generic solution that allows anybody to
  implement any custom tools in the tool palette that they may want. My
  view is that primitive drawing is not a special-purpose, uncommon
  tool, but rather it is an integral feature of any image editing
  application, and it is a feature that gimp is specifically lacking.

I say this again later: it's only a two step process.
(make sure that you have keyboard shortcuts assigned to edit-stroke
selection and edit-fill with FG, for best speed)
1. make your selection, using rectangle select, ellipse select, or
polygon select (new in 2.5)
2. press the appropriate shortcut key (stroke selection for unfilled,
fill with FG for filled). You can even do both, to get a filled shape
with border.

The advantage of this is of course, you can draw complex shapes
easily; for example drawing the outline of a paper with bites out of
it: box select, several subtractive ellipse selects, stroke.

My understanding from what you have written is that you don't use
keyboard shortcuts much; I suggest learning. You needn't go as far as
I did, completely redesigning the keyboard shortcuts, every time you
can use a keyboard shortcut will save you much more time than
navigating directly to any tool, no matter how suited it is for your
needs.

  That said:


  On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 6:10 PM, Michael J. Hammel
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   On Tue, 2008-04-29 at 17:11 -0400, Jason Cipriani wrote:
 An alternative approach to having a new tool is to just add something
 to the menu like draw border around selection, which just automates
 the current select + fill + shrink + (cut or fill) process.
This is known as 'edit-stroke selection' :)
  
Adding a menu item is just a matter of scripting the function in one of
the supported languages or writing a C plugin.

  Oh, that's cool.


 to show
 whatever dialog is associated with this, and a keystroke to repeat the
 last settings, would cover just about everything and wouldn't require
 any major UI changes -- it just uses the existing selection
 functionality and automates a really common task.
  
My problem with this is that while drawing borders may be a very common
task for you, there are many users for which it is never (or nearly
never) used. So adding a button for this task to the Toolbox falls into
my definition of feature creep.

  I disagree based on three points:

  1) There is a reason that how do I draw a box is in the FAQ,
  emphasis on the F.

  2) Photoshop can draw boxes (they keep it clean by combining all the
  primitive drawing tools into a single palette button, but Photoshop
  has the advantage of having those palette buttons that expand when you
  hold the left button down on them, I don't know if gimp has that).
GIMP doesn't, mainly because the main developers largely regard
'hiding functionality' as a disadvantage.
The palette buttons have been requested several times, and the answer
has always been 'we won't do that because it's a bad idea.'


  3) I strongly believe that all image editing programs should have a
  superset of the UI functionality of mspaint.
MS paint, humble as it is, is not a image editing program. It is a
drawing program. You're comparing apples and oranges, so the merit of
this belief is not obvious.
If you were to say 'every painting program should be able to do
everything that MSPaint allows you to, readily' I would agree
completely

  Just as drawing primitives is not useless to everyone. Still, the
  problem there is Evolution's lack of a customizable tool bar. Once the
  UI becomes cluttered in that way letting the user choose what they see
  becomes justified. My first impression of gimp's interface is that
  it's pretty clean, though; it doesn't seem to be crowded enough to
  warrant anything like that.


Anyway, in UI design there is a fine line between usefulness and
meaningfulness.  GIMP originally provided a plugin API (and later
scripting APIs) so that users could easily automate their own set of
common tasks.  The next step is finding a way to integrate these user
defined tasks in to the UI (other than as menu items, and specically in
the toolbox or some dialog similar to it) so that the end user defines
the meaningfulness of the components on display.

  Still, it's drawing primitives. To date gimp remains the only image
  editing program that I personally have ever used where I could not
  figure out how to draw a box on my own. A box. And it seems to me to
  be a fact that a significant number of people have this same problem,
  because, again, it's a question in the FAQ. People wonder how to draw
  boxes enough that it has to be mentioned in the 

Re: [Gimp-user] Drawing simple shapes.

2008-04-29 Thread David Gowers
On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 2:53 PM, David Gowers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   There is not a popular graphics program in
existence that requires these steps to draw primitive shapes such as
boxes. It's no more complex than that. A solution is to add a
simple, basic primitive drawing tool to gimp. Coincidently, that is
also the right solution -- it perfectly fills the requirements of
the goal. I'll draft up a spec some time. It may turn out to be
acceptable, it may not. I'll keep it simple.

I want to make myself clear, I would support the idea of shape drawing
tools (box, ellipse, polygon), providing they have the following
functionality:
1. Drawing mode+opacity, since it is a paint tool.
2. Choosing between FG,BG,Pattern, and No fill
3. Enabling or disabling antialiasing
4. Enabling or disabling stroking (so you can just quickly draw a
filled polygon, say, with no edging.)
5. UI should be based on their respective selection tools -- eg the
resizing of a box or ellipse, or editing of a polygon, should be
operated completely identically to their selection counterparts.

6. These tools are hidden by default (use Tools palette to un/hide or
reorder tools)

Point 6 is mainly because.. GIMP is not a drawing program. (much as I
would like it to be :), I do agree that you should be able to do basic
drawing of the kind you want in it. I would use these tools myself; I
acknowledge that I'm not the target audience of the GIMP, nor are you
apparently (see
http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_UI_Redesign#product_vision )
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