Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-10-06 Thread Ken Tanaka

Chris Mohler wrote:
 1 - The majority of GIMP users do not find the acronym GIMP offensive.

I actually have no problems with the name GIMP, nor do I care if the
authors choose to change the name, just as long as it doesn't happen often.
 2 - US citizens do not have a world-wide right to make all the world
 inoffensive, nor do they constitute the majority of english-speakers
 on earth.

 3 - Making sure everything is inoffensive to every person on the
 planet is futile.

I agree with your other two points also. I'd hate to have to start
referring to bigots as Persons of Prejudice or zealots as the
Moderationally Challenged ;-). The open source community usually has a
good sense of humor, and although I thought GnuImage was a
tongue-in-cheek sort of suggestion, I made the post anyway since it
could actually be a viable compromise if the name Really Needed to be
changed.

-Ken

___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-10-04 Thread Simon Budig
Manish Singh ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote (in reply to Alan Horkan):
 So Alan, before you make anymore posts relating to this topic again, you
 need to make a non-trivial contribution to GIMP yourself to justify all
 the time you are wasting here.

Yosh has decided that Alans posts to this list will be moderated. Alan
has asked me to bring this to your attention. If you are expecting an
answer from Alan related to this topic you won't get it on list.

I am deeply troubled by this unilateral descision of yosh to control the
content of the gimp-user list. While I do think that this thread is
blown out of proportion and the topic gets stale for several years now,
I want to make clear that I absolutely have a problem with this
descision of yosh. While this discussion is inconvenient it is on-topic
for gimp-user (although not likely to get a resolution).

And I do not think that non-trivial contributions to the GIMP should be
required to be allowed to post to gimp-user unmoderatedly. The user in
gimp-user refers to people *using* the gimp, and Alan is a long-time
gimp user and even *has* contributed to the Gimp source. A lot of the
core developers might sometimes disagree with Alan, but that does not
justify blocking Alan from communication via this list.

Also I'd like to see a short notice to the list with an explantation why
someone is going to be moderated. Having clear guidelines on our
webpages on what is acceptable and what not would make this easy.

Bye,
   Simon
-- 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://simon.budig.de/
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-10-04 Thread Manish Singh
On Wed, Oct 04, 2006 at 11:23:14AM +0200, Simon Budig wrote:
 Manish Singh ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote (in reply to Alan Horkan):
  So Alan, before you make anymore posts relating to this topic again, you
  need to make a non-trivial contribution to GIMP yourself to justify all
  the time you are wasting here.
 
 Yosh has decided that Alans posts to this list will be moderated. Alan
 has asked me to bring this to your attention. If you are expecting an
 answer from Alan related to this topic you won't get it on list.
 
 I am deeply troubled by this unilateral descision of yosh to control the
 content of the gimp-user list. While I do think that this thread is
 blown out of proportion and the topic gets stale for several years now,
 I want to make clear that I absolutely have a problem with this
 descision of yosh. While this discussion is inconvenient it is on-topic
 for gimp-user (although not likely to get a resolution).

The discussion was going nowhere, and several people called for the
thread to end. Alan is not the type to listen to such things though, and
feels his agenda trumps all else.

I will note that he posted not one, not two, but *three* posts on the
subject after I said he needs to stop. If he'd actually listened, and
contributed some real content to the list instead, complaining about
this would have much more merit that it does now.

 And I do not think that non-trivial contributions to the GIMP should be
 required to be allowed to post to gimp-user unmoderatedly. The user in
 gimp-user refers to people *using* the gimp, and Alan is a long-time
 gimp user and even *has* contributed to the Gimp source. A lot of the
 core developers might sometimes disagree with Alan, but that does not
 justify blocking Alan from communication via this list.

Contributions are not a requirement to post unmoderated, but they are
after egregious list abuse.

Alan isn't blocked completely, any posts which actually help GIMP users
will of course be allowed through.

 Also I'd like to see a short notice to the list with an explantation why
 someone is going to be moderated. Having clear guidelines on our
 webpages on what is acceptable and what not would make this easy.

Fueling the flames of a useless thread, that several people have voiced
as useless is bad. Being a repeat offender of this is grounds for
moderation. A 10 post thread isn't that big a deal, but continual
adding to an already 50+ posts thread that is clearly going nowhere is.

For people who say that you can just ignore things, I think forcing over
1000 people to take the time to reconfigure their mail software is time
sorely wasted.

I also feel that this topic is not really relevant to *using* GIMP, so
I'd like to ask that anyone who would like to follow up to do so
off-list, Ccing Simon and myself.

-Yosh
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-10-04 Thread John Meyer

Brendan wrote:

On Friday 29 September 2006 15:10, Geoffrey wrote:
  

I've also not heard anyone use the term gimp in the way you indicate in
a very long time.   And I don't believe that's because people are more
politically correct these days.  I think it's a term that just isn't
used in this way any longer.

I think you're blowing this way out of proportion.



Disagree. I just heard it used yesterday. It's a fairly common word. You NOT 
hearing it is not as important if others are hearing it. Granted, I think 
it's far too late to change the name for lots of reasons, but let's not try 
and talk ourselves into believing that it was a good name choice or that it 
doesn't have serious derogatory context to most English-speakers who 
graduated from the fifth grade.

___

  


Forgive me if somebody has brought this up, but isn't GIMP = GNU Image 
Manipulation Program?


___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-10-04 Thread John Meyer

Brendan wrote:

On Friday 29 September 2006 14:05, Sven Neumann wrote:
  

Hi,

On Fri, 2006-09-29 at 06:54 -0600, Roland Hordos wrote:


While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a
professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back because of the
instant derogatory impact of the name.
  

First of all, it's called GIMP, not the GIMP.

Then, can you proove your claim? I very much doubt that you can because
it's just FUD. For most people on this planet, GIMP doesn't have any
special meaning.



Yeah, total disagreement on this one. Please, don't make your argument lack 
any sort of impact by lying.


Pulp Fiction: Bring out the Gimp. Guy in a leather outfit, with a mask. This 
is what 90% of the people say to me when I mention the Gimp for the first 
time. Hey, you remember in Pulp Fiction...Yes, I know. But it's an 
acronym...

___
  
well then, tell them about the GNU Image Manipulation Project, then 
abbrieviate it in future references.


___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-10-03 Thread Brendan
On Friday 29 September 2006 14:05, Sven Neumann wrote:
 Hi,

 On Fri, 2006-09-29 at 06:54 -0600, Roland Hordos wrote:
  While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a
  professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back because of the
  instant derogatory impact of the name.

 First of all, it's called GIMP, not the GIMP.

 Then, can you proove your claim? I very much doubt that you can because
 it's just FUD. For most people on this planet, GIMP doesn't have any
 special meaning.

Yeah, total disagreement on this one. Please, don't make your argument lack 
any sort of impact by lying.

Pulp Fiction: Bring out the Gimp. Guy in a leather outfit, with a mask. This 
is what 90% of the people say to me when I mention the Gimp for the first 
time. Hey, you remember in Pulp Fiction...Yes, I know. But it's an 
acronym...
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-10-03 Thread Brendan
On Friday 29 September 2006 15:10, Geoffrey wrote:
 I've also not heard anyone use the term gimp in the way you indicate in
 a very long time.   And I don't believe that's because people are more
 politically correct these days.  I think it's a term that just isn't
 used in this way any longer.

 I think you're blowing this way out of proportion.

Disagree. I just heard it used yesterday. It's a fairly common word. You NOT 
hearing it is not as important if others are hearing it. Granted, I think 
it's far too late to change the name for lots of reasons, but let's not try 
and talk ourselves into believing that it was a good name choice or that it 
doesn't have serious derogatory context to most English-speakers who 
graduated from the fifth grade.
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-10-03 Thread Chris Mohler

1 - The majority of GIMP users do not find the acronym GIMP offensive.

2 - US citizens do not have a world-wide right to make all the world
inoffensive, nor do they constitute the majority of english-speakers
on earth.

3 - Making sure everything is inoffensive to every person on the
planet is futile.

Therefore, I find the acronym GIMP totally acceptable.  Through daily
life, I find the outside world to be far more offensive than *any*
word.  For example, take the zealots who would change the name of a
well-known image manipulation program, all over some obscure,
localized, negative connotation.  What's next, chop the penis off of
Michelangelo's David?  I'm sure that his stone member offends *some*
people.

One last thought - I think it's quite possible that over the coming
decades, GIMP's growing popularity might entirely strip the negative
meaning from the word gimp.  Now there's a happy thought amongst all
of this belly-aching...

Chris
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-10-03 Thread Geoffrey

Brendan wrote:

On Friday 29 September 2006 14:05, Sven Neumann wrote:

Hi,

On Fri, 2006-09-29 at 06:54 -0600, Roland Hordos wrote:

While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a
professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back because of the
instant derogatory impact of the name.

First of all, it's called GIMP, not the GIMP.

Then, can you proove your claim? I very much doubt that you can because
it's just FUD. For most people on this planet, GIMP doesn't have any
special meaning.


Yeah, total disagreement on this one. Please, don't make your argument lack 
any sort of impact by lying.


Pulp Fiction: Bring out the Gimp. Guy in a leather outfit, with a mask. This 
is what 90% of the people say to me when I mention the Gimp for the first 
time. Hey, you remember in Pulp Fiction...Yes, I know. But it's an 
acronym...


The fact that so many people have such poor taste in movies shouldn't 
cloud your view of the issue.  I never saw the movie, thus I don't make 
the connection.


I'm sure that we all find a reference to a word in a movie or book and 
turn it into such an argument.


--
Until later, Geoffrey

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 - Benjamin Franklin
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-10-03 Thread Manish Singh
On Sun, Oct 01, 2006 at 10:02:17PM +0200, Michael Schumacher wrote:
 Alan Horkan wrote:
 
 BTW, there seems to be something broken with Marc's messages.
 
  From: Marc Lehmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Although they are sent to the list...
 
  Cc: gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
 
 ...they don't seem to appear there.
 Maybe someone could clear this up - it it a problem on Marc's end, the
 list or on my system?

Marc posts from a different address than the one he uses to subscribe to
the list. It's up to him to fix this how he sees fit. (One option would
be to subscribe two addresses, and configure one not to receive mail)

-Yosh
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-10-02 Thread Doug

Owen Berry wrote:


On 9/30/06, Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


lameness: disability of walking due to crippling of the legs or feet
http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Agimp

This is the commonly understood meaning of the word for most English
speakers and it is considered derogatory, like calling someone a 
cripple.


English-speaking countries: There's also Australian English, British 
English, Indian English, South African English, West African English, 
etc.  and I believe the majority of English speakers are 
actually Indian. The Oxford (Compact) English dictionary gives the 
derogatory sense of the word as N.American. So does the dictionary.com  
link quoted in an earlier post.



There are quite a few native English speakers who have pointed out
that gimp means nothing to them, and I want to add myself to that
list. 


Me, likewise. (neither from Aus or the US)


Can we get past this and agree that it's just a cultural issue,
and maybe generational as well. Not only did I never hear it in a
derogatory context in my own country, but after 8 years in the US I
haven't heard it used that way here either. Maybe people need to stop
speaking and thinking in such a derogatory fashion. Renew your minds!

Oh, and if the project was to be renamed, maybe it would be offensive
in some other language or culture. 


Too true! there are plenty of hilarious accounts of commercial products 
with names that were highly offensive when exported.




English is not the only language on
the planet.

Owen (not from Aus)
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Doug

___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-10-02 Thread John R. Culleton
On Sunday 01 October 2006 05:15, Christoph Sturm wrote:
 On 10/1/06, Carol Spears [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  please also explain the reason that you target GIMP and not some of the
  other perhaps better funded names of products that are as or more
  offensive than this one here?

 can you give an example of such a product?

 regards
  chris
 ___
 Gimp-user mailing list
 Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
 https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user

This discussion is getting circular. Hooters, Hustler, Vanity
Fair, Spam to repeat some which have been named already.


-- 
John Culleton
Able Indexing and Typesetting
Precision typesetting (tm) at reasonable cost.
Satisfaction guaranteed. 
http://wexfordpress.com


___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-10-02 Thread Geoffrey

Alan Horkan wrote:

On Sun, 1 Oct 2006, Geoffrey wrote:


Not really a product per se, but I'd say you nailed it.

Personally, I would never be caught dead in a Hooters.  Your example
leads me to believe you'd equate the quality of GIMP users with the
quality of Hooter's clientele.  Maybe that wasn't your intention...
(boy, this thread has gone nutty).

No, it certainly was not.  In my mind the comparison of GIMP to Hooters
is not valid.  GIMP is not intended to be derogatory, but we all know
how Hooters gets it's name.

I'm a GIMP user as well, thus I don't equate myself with the scum you'll
find frequenting Hooters. :)


Do you have a problem with owls?  The name is perfectly acceptable!


Either you're joking or you're entirely clueless...

Either way, it's an unacceptable response to an issue that, up until 
this point I had assumed was a serious issue to you.



--
Until later, Geoffrey

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 - Benjamin Franklin
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-10-02 Thread Ken Tanaka

Raphaël Quinet wrote:
 On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 16:00:25 -0500, Eric P [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
 Personally, I think the name should change not because I find GIMP 
 derogatory but because I think a name that somewhat
 identified (even vaguely) what sphere the software is used it would be a 
 boon. 
 Inkscape is an excellent name in my opinion.  It is somewhat ambiguous, but 
 you definitely know that software named
 Inkscape must have something to do with the artistic sphere.  That's all you 
 really need.
 

 I agree.  Among the various arguments about changing GIMP's name, this
 is probably the only one that makes a bit of sense.  This is not a
 problem for those who know that GIMP actually stands for GNU Image
 Manipulation Program but those who do not know GIMP yet will probably
 not know the expansion of the acronym either.  Besides, the acronym is
 rarely expanded in casual talks and most users see only GIMP in the
 splash screen and in the window titles so they may not even know what
 this stands for.

 It may be interesting to associate the name of the application with
 what it does.  If we look at GIMP and its derivatives, we have:
   GIMP- Meaningless unless it is expanded.
...

Maybe if we all make a concerted effort to call it by the shortened name
of GNU Image, people with hear NewImage (sounds more glitzy, like a
TM should follow immediatly afterward), and the name could be
self-fulfilling.

   Dogwaffle   - Bad.
...
Eww, sounds like somebody stepped in that one...;-)
   PhotoPaint  - Good.
 For the vector drawing programs, names like InkScape, Skencil or
 Sketch are rather good.

 Several other applications in the same area seem to have more
 interesting names.  Maybe GIMP could become more popular if it
 switched to a name that is more directly associated with graphics.
 Maybe not.  As Yosh mentioned, GIMP already has some mindshare and a
 new name would not only have to be good, it would have to be good
 enough to justify sacrificing the popularity of the current name.

 So feel free to propose better names that are:
 - related to the graphics, photo or image manipulation domains
 - cool, inspiring
 - unique so that we don't run into trademark problems
 - short enough to fit in the applications menu or window titles
 - suitable for most languages and cultures

 If you find a name that meets all these criteria and would probably be
 immediately adopted by a marketing team if GIMP were a commercial
 product, then keep in mind that you would still have 90% chance to
 have the name rejected because some developers simply do not want to
 change the name.  With that in mind, I wish you good luck...

 -Raphaël
 ___
 Gimp-user mailing list
 Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
 https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
   


___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-10-01 Thread Carol Spears
On Sun, Oct 01, 2006 at 02:39:46AM +0100, Alan Horkan wrote:
 
 As I said before offering to accept patches which made it possible to
 rebrand the gimp in a clean maintainable way without the need to fork
 could bring this dicussion to screeching halt until someone shows some
 code.  Isn't that the Free Software way?  Look how Ubuntu has different
 versions which all work together promoting Ubuntu without suggesting those
 who have different needs should fork the project.
 
can you expand on this please?

three different names for Ubuntu or what?

please also explain the reason that you target GIMP and not some of the
other perhaps better funded names of products that are as or more
offensive than this one here?

thanks for your continued effort to do this important thing...

carol

___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-10-01 Thread Christoph Sturm

On 10/1/06, Carol Spears [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

please also explain the reason that you target GIMP and not some of the
other perhaps better funded names of products that are as or more
offensive than this one here?


can you give an example of such a product?

regards
chris
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-10-01 Thread Alan Horkan

On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, Chris Mohler wrote:

 Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 23:36:37 -0500
 From: Chris Mohler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu
 Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

[...]

 I do not believe that GIMP should be renamed.  Anyone who takes
 offense should simply grow up a little.

In your example the group did rename themselves, but yet you are using it
as an example against renaming?

 Renaming things in 'decent' or 'sanitary' ways is foolish at best.

I have pointed out that the current situation amounts to telling those
with different opinions to Fork off but this seems suboptimal.

Both Gimpshop and Cinepaint two projects with different ideas have been
criticised for forking instead of cooperating.

I am suggesting that although it is great that forking is possible it is
not desirable.  Very often forking is a big waste of everyones time and
resources when they could instead be helping improve one shared codebase
all can benefit from.  It might just maybe be better if there was one less
reason for people to fork.

-- 
Alan

___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-10-01 Thread Alan Horkan

On Sun, 1 Oct 2006, Marc Lehmann wrote:

 On Sun, Oct 01, 2006 at 02:39:46AM +0100, Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
   Is there?
 
  Yes.

 I didn't see any evidence for that yet.

You have not disproved it exists, you just choose not to see it.

It is not surprising non-native English speakers have a different
understanding of the word gimp.

  At the very least you have both me and the recent submitter saying there
  is a derogatory impact, that is all it takes.

 Certainly not. An impact certainly requires more than two people whining
 a bit :)

Now you are just being rude and dismissive, a smiley face doesn't make it
any less so.

I provided links to the last time this was discussed and there was a bug
report filed then too
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160890

You are arguing that a small impact is no impact at all.

 You will find amny complains about many other aspects of gimp. That does not
 mean there is an actual problem.

No one claimed there are not other bigger problems.  It might even be a
good sign that name is the biggest complaint some users have.

  As I said before offering to accept patches which made it possible to
  rebrand the gimp in a clean maintainable way without the need to fork
  could bring this dicussion to screeching halt until someone shows some
  code.

 Dropping this topic would also bring this to a screeching halt. Depends on
 your...

  Isn't that the Free Software way?

by which I mean to accept patches which allow things to be changed in a
maintainable way rather than actively encouraging people to fork your
project

(maybe that isn't the way, maybe the Free software way is to insist on big
wasteful forks like the Emacs XEmacs split or the GGC EGCS!)

 The free software idea is not to accept just any patch.

Crudely performing a find and replace to change the name to something else
would be just any patch but abstracting out the name cleanly so GIMP
could still be GIMP and also be something else too (perhaps depending on a
configure option) would not be just any patch.  it should be possible to
change the name in a way that doesn't create as much of a maintaince
burden as forking.  Abstracting out the APPNAME is a concept built into
Docbook.

Look at this message where tml bemoans the effort wasted on forks such as
Seashore
http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.gimp.devel/8875

 give users of the software the ability to change it, which is exactly
 whats being done here.

 If free softare meant to accept any patch regardless of how silly,
 broken or useless it is (while increasing the maintainance burden) most

the suggestion is to allow patching to avoid the maintaince burden and
wasted effort of a fork.

 projects would be in rather bad state. No, free software means you can
 change it, it doesn't mean that everybody else is your servant and has to
 follow your orders.

 Besides, there is no patch, AFAIK.

Sven said no patch would be accepted even if it existed so there is no
reason for anyone to start one.  The only option seems to be to fork.

 Red herring. If you want to create another version of gimp under a
 different name, you are certainly allowed to do so, as has been said a
 number of times.
 Wether you call it a fork or Kimp does not make any difference.
 Please note you can take the sources and change the name without
 creating a fork in the common sense,

Whether or not you call a set of unnofficial changes a fork or not there
were plenty of complaints when the GIMPshop developer created his
experiment.
https://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/lists/gimp-user/2006-February/007530.html

 just as what you could do with diferent versions of Ubuntu.

Canonical dont let just anyone use the Ubuntu name, but they managed
to get others with different ideas to help promote Ubuntu rather than
push them away.


Sincerely

Alan Horkan

Inkscape http://inkscape.org
Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org


___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-10-01 Thread Michael Schumacher
Alan Horkan wrote:

BTW, there seems to be something broken with Marc's messages.

 From: Marc Lehmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Although they are sent to the list...

 Cc: gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU

...they don't seem to appear there.
Maybe someone could clear this up - it it a problem on Marc's end, the
list or on my system?


Michael

-- 
GIMP  http://www.gimp.org  | IRC: irc://irc.gimp.org/gimp
Wiki  http://wiki.gimp.org | .de: http://gimpforum.de
Plug-ins  http://registry.gimp.org |
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-10-01 Thread Geoffrey

Manish Singh wrote:

On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 12:38:02PM -0600, Roland Hordos wrote:

can you proove your claim?

Sigh.  Try googling is gimp a derogatory term.  If you read the
sources at the first 10 hits and you still don't understand, then try
the next 15000.


If I search for the string is gimp a derogatory term I get one hit.

If I search for:

is gimp a derogatory term

Not quoted, and therefore locating these as separate search keys, then I 
get 16,700 hits.


You need to learn how to use a search engine.

That is not proof. 


Agreed.

--
Until later, Geoffrey

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 - Benjamin Franklin
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-10-01 Thread Geoffrey

Steve Bibayoff wrote:

Hello,

On 9/29/06, Roland Hordos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
...

[...]If you can point out a single commercial product that
has mass use in North America that has a derogatory term in it's title,


Yahoo


I'll withdraw my critique and be gone.


:-)


How about the Macon Georgia hockey team:

Macon Whoopee.

They have a pretty good draw...

:)

--
Until later, Geoffrey

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 - Benjamin Franklin
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-10-01 Thread Geoffrey

Michael Schumacher wrote:

Roland Hordos wrote:

If you can point out a single commercial product that has 
mass use in North America that has a derogatory term in it's title,
I'll withdraw my critique and be gone. 


Hooters the restaurant.

--
Until later, Geoffrey

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 - Benjamin Franklin
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-10-01 Thread Eric P
Geoffrey wrote:
 Michael Schumacher wrote:
 Roland Hordos wrote:

 If you can point out a single commercial product that has mass use in
 North America that has a derogatory term in it's title,
 I'll withdraw my critique and be gone. 
 
 Hooters the restaurant.
 

Not really a product per se, but I'd say you nailed it.

Personally, I would never be caught dead in a Hooters.  Your example leads me 
to believe you'd equate the quality of
GIMP users with the quality of Hooter's clientele.  Maybe that wasn't your 
intention... (boy, this thread has gone nutty).

Eric

___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-10-01 Thread Alan Horkan

On Sat, 30 Sep 2006, Carol Spears wrote:

 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 23:28:44 -0700
 From: Carol Spears [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED],
  GIMPUser Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu
 Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

 On Sun, Oct 01, 2006 at 02:39:46AM +0100, Alan Horkan wrote:
 
  As I said before offering to accept patches which made it possible to
  rebrand the gimp in a clean maintainable way without the need to fork
  could bring this dicussion to screeching halt until someone shows some
  code.  Isn't that the Free Software way?  Look how Ubuntu has different
  versions which all work together promoting Ubuntu without suggesting those
  who have different needs should fork the project.

There were people who wanted to use Ubuntu to target different audiences
so without changing what they were the found a way to cooperate and make
Kubuntu and Edubuntu happen.  Different ideas but still part of Ubuntu.

 can you expand on this please?

See above, if you need more you will need to explain more clearly.

I wasn't sure your question was necessarily directed at me.  I am only
responding because I do not want to ignore you but your message is very
confusing.

 three different names for Ubuntu or what?

I'm not sure what you mean, could you please rephrase your question.

 please also explain the reason that you target GIMP and not some of the
 other perhaps better funded names of products that are as or more
 offensive than this one here?

This question does not make sense to me.  I did not target the gimp, I did
not even start this discussion.  All I am really asking is for developers
to consider the possibility of making it easier to rebrand custom versions
of the gimp for different audiences.  Is there not something a little bit
more that can be done for those who have issue with the name?

 thanks for your continued effort to do this important thing...

???

-- 
Alan

___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-10-01 Thread Geoffrey

Eric P wrote:

Geoffrey wrote:

Michael Schumacher wrote:

Roland Hordos wrote:


If you can point out a single commercial product that has mass
use in North America that has a derogatory term in it's title, 
I'll withdraw my critique and be gone.

Hooters the restaurant.



Not really a product per se, but I'd say you nailed it.

Personally, I would never be caught dead in a Hooters.  Your example
leads me to believe you'd equate the quality of GIMP users with the
quality of Hooter's clientele.  Maybe that wasn't your intention...
(boy, this thread has gone nutty).


No, it certainly was not.  In my mind the comparison of GIMP to Hooters 
is not valid.  GIMP is not intended to be derogatory, but we all know 
how Hooters gets it's name.


I'm a GIMP user as well, thus I don't equate myself with the scum you'll 
find frequenting Hooters. :)


--
Until later, Geoffrey

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 - Benjamin Franklin
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-10-01 Thread Owen Berry

On 9/30/06, Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

lameness: disability of walking due to crippling of the legs or feet
http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Agimp

This is the commonly understood meaning of the word for most English
speakers and it is considered derogatory, like calling someone a cripple.


There are quite a few native English speakers who have pointed out
that gimp means nothing to them, and I want to add myself to that
list. Can we get past this and agree that it's just a cultural issue,
and maybe generational as well. Not only did I never hear it in a
derogatory context in my own country, but after 8 years in the US I
haven't heard it used that way here either. Maybe people need to stop
speaking and thinking in such a derogatory fashion. Renew your minds!

Oh, and if the project was to be renamed, maybe it would be offensive
in some other language or culture. English is not the only language on
the planet.

Owen (not from Aus)
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-10-01 Thread Alan Horkan

On Sun, 1 Oct 2006, Geoffrey wrote:

  Not really a product per se, but I'd say you nailed it.
 
  Personally, I would never be caught dead in a Hooters.  Your example
  leads me to believe you'd equate the quality of GIMP users with the
  quality of Hooter's clientele.  Maybe that wasn't your intention...
  (boy, this thread has gone nutty).

 No, it certainly was not.  In my mind the comparison of GIMP to Hooters
 is not valid.  GIMP is not intended to be derogatory, but we all know
 how Hooters gets it's name.

 I'm a GIMP user as well, thus I don't equate myself with the scum you'll
 find frequenting Hooters. :)

Do you have a problem with owls?  The name is perfectly acceptable!

-- 
Alan

___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-10-01 Thread Manish Singh
On Mon, Oct 02, 2006 at 01:58:57AM +0100, Alan Horkan wrote:
 
 On Sat, 30 Sep 2006, Carol Spears wrote:
 
  Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 23:28:44 -0700
  From: Carol Spears [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED],
   GIMPUser Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu
  Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name
 
  On Sun, Oct 01, 2006 at 02:39:46AM +0100, Alan Horkan wrote:
  
   As I said before offering to accept patches which made it possible to
   rebrand the gimp in a clean maintainable way without the need to fork
   could bring this dicussion to screeching halt until someone shows some
   code.  Isn't that the Free Software way?  Look how Ubuntu has different
   versions which all work together promoting Ubuntu without suggesting those
   who have different needs should fork the project.
 
 There were people who wanted to use Ubuntu to target different audiences
 so without changing what they were the found a way to cooperate and make
 Kubuntu and Edubuntu happen.  Different ideas but still part of Ubuntu.

This is not a valid comparision. You're suggestiong a wholesale name
change, which is would mean major community and brand fragmentation.
Somehow I don't think you'd be satisfied with edugimp or somesuch.
 
  please also explain the reason that you target GIMP and not some of the
  other perhaps better funded names of products that are as or more
  offensive than this one here?
 
 This question does not make sense to me.  I did not target the gimp, I did
 not even start this discussion.  All I am really asking is for developers
 to consider the possibility of making it easier to rebrand custom versions
 of the gimp for different audiences.  Is there not something a little bit
 more that can be done for those who have issue with the name?

You're the one continuing this ridiculous discussion. Right now there
are more people who have voiced objections to this thread than people
who have problems with the name.

If you really truly wanted to make GIMP more attractive to users, you'd
be encouraging people to make patches that have features that people
want, or fixing real bugs. That'd make much more of a difference than
any name change would.

So Alan, before you make anymore posts relating to this topic again, you
need to make a non-trivial contribution to GIMP yourself to justify all
the time you are wasting here.

-Yosh
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


RE: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-30 Thread Alan Horkan

On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, yves wrote:

 Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 10:38:23 -0700
 From: yves [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: 'Alan Horkan' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: RE: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

 Can somebody explain what is 'wrong' with that name?
 Yves

lameness: disability of walking due to crippling of the legs or feet
http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Agimp

This is the commonly understood meaning of the word for most English
speakers and it is considered derogatory, like calling someone a cripple.

Another less commonly used meaning - but well known from the film Pulp
Fiction (1994) - can be found here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimp_(sadomasochism)
The developers are very familiar with this meaning as it is referenced
in the following bug report they insist on leaving open
Fun - GIMP becomes enraged upon donning of leather mask
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10686
GIMP was started in 1995.

There are other meanings such as a type of knot or braid but I was
unfamiliar with those meanings until people tried to defend the name.


--
Alan
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


RE: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-30 Thread Saul Goode
 On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, Alan Horkan wrote:

 This is the commonly understood meaning of the word for most English
 speakers and it is considered derogatory, like calling someone a cripple.

While the term gimp may be disparagingly used when referring to a
PERSON, that does not make the word itself disparaging; just as calling
a person a cripple might be slight, but referring to machinery or
software as crippled in no way slights PEOPLE. Words have different
meanings in different contexts (not to mention different locales) and
one should not be overly concerned when an impersonal and innocuous
usage usurps a disparaging one -- I should think such a change should be
of benefit to those who would be offended by its disparaging use.

So far as GIMP being disparaging to itself is concerned: even if true,
I see no problem with this. If this means short-sighted individuals
wouldn't use the product because of a self-deprecatory name, so be it.
As the plant engineer for a small ink manufacturer, I had no problem
choosing a product called MiniCAD over the more professionally named
CATIA, AUTOCAD, et cetera (and isn't the word cad disparaging?).
My bosses had no problem that the name was self-derogatory, especially
when they realized the power that the software possessed (not to mention
the savings of thousands of dollars in initial outlay; though that was
the major criterion of my trade study). 

Personally, I like the name GIMP (as it is an acronym, I always
capitalized the letters and, despite Sven's desires, I use the before
it so as to grammatically match its expanded form). It is part of the
Unix tradition of naming commands with (short) acronyms, is easy to say
(unlike some acronyms: WWW, eg), is not forced (unlike some acronyms:
GUILE, eg), actually stands for a functional meaning (unlike some
acronyms: AWK, eg), (is not recursive: GNU, eg), and gives deserved
credit to its GNU origins. 

I rather understand the preference that the software's name describe its
function, but don't think that in itself justifies loosing the GIMP's
already significant association with being an image manipulation
program (I also despise the practice of usurping common words such as
Paint, Word, Draw, et cetera when naming products; little
mitigated by placement of a lowercase i in front them.)


It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do 
not care who gets the credit. -- Harry S. Truman

___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-30 Thread John R. Culleton
On Friday 29 September 2006 20:33, Michael Schumacher wrote:
 Roland Hordos wrote:
  If you can point out a single commercial product that has
  mass use in North America that has a derogatory term in it's title,
  I'll withdraw my critique and be gone.

 Spam.

 Both sorts.

Coke, which means Coca Cola or cocaine (among other meanings.) 

Hustler, which means prostitute.

Vanity Fair 

And you said it's (a contraction for it is) when you meant
its (the possessive form of the pronoun it). 

Bye!

-- 
John Culleton
Able Indexing and Typesetting
Precision typesetting (tm) at reasonable cost.
Satisfaction guaranteed. 
http://wexfordpress.com


___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


RE: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-30 Thread Alan Horkan

On Sat, 30 Sep 2006, Sven Neumann wrote:

 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 00:32:04 +0200
 From: Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Roland Hordos [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
 Subject: RE: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

 Hi,

 On Fri, 2006-09-29 at 12:38 -0600, Roland Hordos wrote:

  While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a
  professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back in the English
  speaking world because of the instant derogatory impact of the name.
  Gimp is a term in common culture that refers to a disabled person in a
  demeaning way.

 Sigh. All major commercial Linux distributors in the English speaking
 world include the GNU Image Manipulation Program. Most of them even
 print the acronym on the box or mention it prominently in the product
 description.

That doesn't necessarily mean they would not prefer another name or find
it easier to promote.  The most appropriate people to ask would be an
accessibility group including native English speakers.

 If you have a look at the IT section of any major book store, you will
 find books about GIMP. I think you are by far overestimating the
 derogatory impact.

Maybe but we should all understand there is a derogatory impact and it
does offend some amount of people and does make some people uncomfortable
promoting the software because this issue comes up every so often.

Now maybe it is impractical to do much about it but Sven previously
made it very clear he very much wants to keep the name and does not
want to encourage anyone to change it either.

I don't think anyone would fork a program over just the name but at the
moment that seems to be the only option available to people who dislike
the name.

Sincerely

Alan Horkan

Inkscape http://inkscape.org
Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org

___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-30 Thread Alan Horkan

On Sat, 30 Sep 2006, [ISO-8859-1] Raphaël Quinet wrote:

 On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 16:00:25 -0500, Eric P [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
  Personally, I think the name should change not because I find GIMP
  derogatory but because I think a name that somewhat identified (even
  vaguely) what sphere the software is used it would be a boon.
  Inkscape is an excellent name in my opinion.  It is somewhat
  ambiguous, but you definitely know that software named Inkscape must
  have something to do with the artistic sphere.  That's all you really
  need.

 I agree.  Among the various arguments about changing GIMP's name, this
 is probably the only one that makes a bit of sense.

 This is not a problem for those who know that GIMP actually stands for
 GNU Image Manipulation Program but those who do not know GIMP yet will
 probably not know the expansion of the acronym either.

This is why it is so important for things like the release notes and other
promotional material to talk about the GNU Image Manipulation Program
(GIMP) making sure to first explain the name before using the acronym.


 Besides, the acronym is rarely expanded in casual talks and most users
 see only GIMP in the splash screen and in the window titles so they
 may not even know what this stands for.

[...]


 If you find a name that meets all these criteria and would probably be
 immediately adopted by a marketing team if GIMP were a commercial
 product, then keep in mind that you would still have 90% chance to
 have the name rejected because some developers simply do not want to
 change the name.  With that in mind, I wish you good luck...

I wanted to side step the issue of picking a better or different name,
since it is impossible to please everyone and the original gimp is
unlikely to change.  Instead I had hoped to tackle the issue of providing
infrastructure to make it possible.  That would also mean there would be
no excuse for further discussion until someone provided the necessary
patches and infrastructure to make the name cleanly reconfigurable,
something I would think you might want to encourage.

Sincerely

Alan Horkan

Inkscape http://inkscape.org
Abiword http://www.abisource.com
Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org

Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/


___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-30 Thread Chris Mohler

On 9/30/06, Saul Goode [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, Alan Horkan wrote:

 This is the commonly understood meaning of the word for most English
 speakers and it is considered derogatory, like calling someone a cripple.

While the term gimp may be disparagingly used when referring to a
PERSON, that does not make the word itself disparaging; just as calling
a person a cripple might be slight, but referring to machinery or
software as crippled in no way slights PEOPLE. Words have different
meanings in different contexts (not to mention different locales) and
one should not be overly concerned when an impersonal and innocuous
usage usurps a disparaging one -- I should think such a change should be
of benefit to those who would be offended by its disparaging use.

So far as GIMP being disparaging to itself is concerned: even if true,
I see no problem with this. If this means short-sighted individuals
wouldn't use the product because of a self-deprecatory name, so be it.
As the plant engineer for a small ink manufacturer, I had no problem
choosing a product called MiniCAD over the more professionally named
CATIA, AUTOCAD, et cetera (and isn't the word cad disparaging?).
My bosses had no problem that the name was self-derogatory, especially
when they realized the power that the software possessed (not to mention
the savings of thousands of dollars in initial outlay; though that was
the major criterion of my trade study).

Personally, I like the name GIMP (as it is an acronym, I always
capitalized the letters and, despite Sven's desires, I use the before
it so as to grammatically match its expanded form). It is part of the
Unix tradition of naming commands with (short) acronyms, is easy to say
(unlike some acronyms: WWW, eg), is not forced (unlike some acronyms:
GUILE, eg), actually stands for a functional meaning (unlike some
acronyms: AWK, eg), (is not recursive: GNU, eg), and gives deserved
credit to its GNU origins.

I rather understand the preference that the software's name describe its
function, but don't think that in itself justifies loosing the GIMP's
already significant association with being an image manipulation
program (I also despise the practice of usurping common words such as
Paint, Word, Draw, et cetera when naming products; little
mitigated by placement of a lowercase i in front them.)


It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do
not care who gets the credit. -- Harry S. Truman

___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user



AMEN!

Chris
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-30 Thread Carol Spears
On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 06:54:48AM -0600, Roland Hordos wrote:
 
 While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a
 professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back because of the
 instant derogatory impact of the name.  If someone who can champion this
 task reads this, please humble yourself for the sake of this amazing
 software that some of us are embarrassed to promote, or simply won't
 until the name is changed.
 
then stop.  promote actually spending the money to purchase other
applications for their well-namedness.  

that being said, i chuckle when i hear the word 'Kleenex'.  this
chuckle that i get does not restrict me from using this product as a 
'facial tissue'.  being limited by how much money i have available does
though.

quite possibly the first mention of the word gimp in a media situation
is in this movie:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boys_Town_%281938_film%29
the movie was about prejudice and financially challenged people.  the
word is used in this movie in not such a derogatory way because the
person it was being used to describe was such a functional and well
rounded person.  it is interesting how so much of our fictional stories
are about how bad people work and little howtos about how to disable
them.

the software known as GIMP was started by a spencer as well.  what is
interesting to me is that the company who hired him also is hosting a
searchable archive of newsgroup stuff.  some of the archived news has
changed its message in these years i have been involved.  the news piece
i read was about how the software had been originally written because
such software was not available to the writers -- unless they wanted to
steal.  this archived news has changed.  the name of the company hosting
this archives makes me think of what a baby says when it is happy and 
trying to speak.

perhaps we should start there and ask this company to change its name
because it is such a humiliating message to its users?

any guesses the reason that the original message changed from 'i don't
want to steal so i wrote this software myself' to saying nothing?  the
company reports financial health and seems to be in the position to make
positive change in the world.  could it be that money is only possessed
by perverts?  this also seems to be the message of this thread that
followed this very stupid and terribly predictable thread.

perhaps the original news item i read was wrong.  perhaps the one i read
now is the correct one.  but what could possibly be the reason for it to
have changed?

can anyone provide evidence that the people who have the money and
connections to run this world are not perverts?  my fragile little
psyche would really like an example of how men are not animals who only
react to the very absolutely worst of despicable sexual innuendo.   

and lets give mr. tarantino the credit he deserves.  a scholar of movie
fiction and culture -- i am going to suggest that this movie was a
little howto.  howto reach into your own mind and the way you are in the
world and how your perceptions are.  reach into your life and find that
prejudiced and uncultured 'yahoo' who has put the best part of himself
into a box in his own mind and mistreats it.  it is perhaps a bigger
statment about mans fear of his own sexuality.  like they did in this
movie, find a tough guy in your own mind and use this tough guy to 
kill that part of you which has imprisoned yourself and kill that part 
of you that has been so abused by the expectations of others.

be bigger than your own box.  or make your own maillist.

respectfully yours,

carol

further reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahoo_(literature)
for help with the sound:
find an infant, make it happy and listen
gimp:look within

___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-30 Thread Kent Tenney

I don't expect the name will ever be changed, and that won't stop
me from using or promoting GIMP.

I just wish there was less defensiveness about it. Clearly it offends
a number of people. Trying to explain that away, or establish there
is something wrong with anyone who would take offense, is not
productive.

I would recommend a page (if there isn't already one) at gimp.org which
addresses the name issue and explains the technical and other reasons
why it won't change. If it was a wiki page, people would have an outlet for
their opinions.

Thanks,
Kent

On 9/30/06, Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


On Sat, 30 Sep 2006, [ISO-8859-1] Raphaël Quinet wrote:

 On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 16:00:25 -0500, Eric P [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
  Personally, I think the name should change not because I find GIMP
  derogatory but because I think a name that somewhat identified (even
  vaguely) what sphere the software is used it would be a boon.
  Inkscape is an excellent name in my opinion.  It is somewhat
  ambiguous, but you definitely know that software named Inkscape must
  have something to do with the artistic sphere.  That's all you really
  need.

 I agree.  Among the various arguments about changing GIMP's name, this
 is probably the only one that makes a bit of sense.

 This is not a problem for those who know that GIMP actually stands for
 GNU Image Manipulation Program but those who do not know GIMP yet will
 probably not know the expansion of the acronym either.

This is why it is so important for things like the release notes and other
promotional material to talk about the GNU Image Manipulation Program
(GIMP) making sure to first explain the name before using the acronym.


 Besides, the acronym is rarely expanded in casual talks and most users
 see only GIMP in the splash screen and in the window titles so they
 may not even know what this stands for.

[...]


 If you find a name that meets all these criteria and would probably be
 immediately adopted by a marketing team if GIMP were a commercial
 product, then keep in mind that you would still have 90% chance to
 have the name rejected because some developers simply do not want to
 change the name.  With that in mind, I wish you good luck...

I wanted to side step the issue of picking a better or different name,
since it is impossible to please everyone and the original gimp is
unlikely to change.  Instead I had hoped to tackle the issue of providing
infrastructure to make it possible.  That would also mean there would be
no excuse for further discussion until someone provided the necessary
patches and infrastructure to make the name cleanly reconfigurable,
something I would think you might want to encourage.

Sincerely

Alan Horkan

Inkscape http://inkscape.org
Abiword http://www.abisource.com
Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org

Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/


___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-30 Thread Alan Horkan

On Sat, 30 Sep 2006, Marc Lehmann wrote:

 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 20:07:13 +0200
 From: Marc Lehmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
 Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

 On Sat, Sep 30, 2006 at 05:06:44PM +0100, Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  Maybe but we should all understand there is a derogatory impact

 Is there?

Yes.  You trimmed the bit of Sven's message where he agreed there was an
impact but he disagreed as to the size and importance of that derogatory
impact.

At the very least you have both me and the recent submitter saying there
is a derogatory impact, that is all it takes.  If you want more examples
look at the mailing list archives you should find a few more occassions
when this issue was raised and - unreliable thought it may be - you will
also find many complaints about the name in places like slashdot and many
others.  You cannot deny there is an impact but it is not unreasonable to
ask how important that impact may or may not be.

As I said before offering to accept patches which made it possible to
rebrand the gimp in a clean maintainable way without the need to fork
could bring this dicussion to screeching halt until someone shows some
code.  Isn't that the Free Software way?  Look how Ubuntu has different
versions which all work together promoting Ubuntu without suggesting those
who have different needs should fork the project.

-- 
Alan H.
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread Jakub Steiner
Hi list,
in addition, can we change the default colors to read african-american
and caucasian?

thanks

-- 
Jakub Steiner [EMAIL PROTECTED]

___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread John R. Culleton
On Friday 29 September 2006 09:38, Jakub Steiner wrote:
 Hi list,
 in addition, can we change the default colors to read african-american
 and caucasian?

 thanks

No because not all B---k people are American. and not all
Africans are B---k. To suggest either would be entirely too
chauvinistic. 
-- 
John Culleton


___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread Alan Horkan

On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, Roland Hordos wrote:

 Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 06:54:48 -0600
 From: Roland Hordos [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
 Subject: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

 Hi,

 While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a
 professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back because of the
 instant derogatory impact of the name.  If someone who can champion this
 task reads this, please humble yourself for the sake of this amazing
 software that some of us are embarrassed to promote, or simply won't
 until the name is changed.

I agree (and have always agreed but continued to use the software
nonetheless) however the changing of the name presents some difficulties.

When this was brought up on previous occasions the developers did agree to
try and emphasize the full title of the GNU Image Manipulation Program
(GIMP) in future.

The GNU General Public License (GPL) makes it entirely possible for
distributions to make their own changes and many often do but so far most
have resisted changing the name, probably due to the extra effort of
maintaining such a change but if you suggest it to your preferred
distribution you never know they might go ahead and do it.

On the techincal side Sven Neumann has explained he does not wish to see
the project renamed and will not accept patches to make it easier for
third parties to change the name.
http://www.advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/diary.html?start=144#gimp

Perhaps his opinion has changed but at the time he wrote:
I seriously doubt that the name is effectively keeping GIMP from being
used. And I am all happy to ignore the very few people who are so
narrow-minded as to having a problem with the name.
http://www.mail-archive.com/gimp-developer%40lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/msg08677.html


Sincerely

Alan Horkan

Inkscape http://inkscape.org
Abiword http://www.abisource.com
Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org

Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread Andrew

Roland Hordos wrote:

Hi,
 
While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a 
professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back because of the 
instant derogatory impact of the name.  If someone who can champion 
this task reads this, please humble yourself for the sake of this 
amazing software that some of us are embarrassed to promote, or simply 
won't until the name is changed.
 
Thank you.
 

Gimp | Gimp |
a. W. gwymp fair, neat, comely.
  Smart; spruce; trim; nice. Obs. or Prov. Eng.
  1913 Webster


Andrew
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


RE: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread Roland Hordos
Hi Alan,

Thanks for an intelligent and articulate response.  I suspected the
disconnect with reality, bringing me to post to the users list first
instead of the developers'.  Being a software developer and contributor
to other open source projects, I understand the complexity issues.  I
also wish the community to grow past the selfishness of the proud
consistent contributors.  If only they could see it from outside, it'd
be obvious.

thanks again, Roland;


-Original Message-
From: Alan Horkan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:19 AM
To: Roland Hordos
Cc: gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name



On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, Roland Hordos wrote:

 Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 06:54:48 -0600
 From: Roland Hordos [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
 Subject: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

 Hi,

 While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a
 professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back because of the
 instant derogatory impact of the name.  If someone who can champion
this
 task reads this, please humble yourself for the sake of this amazing
 software that some of us are embarrassed to promote, or simply won't
 until the name is changed.

I agree (and have always agreed but continued to use the software
nonetheless) however the changing of the name presents some
difficulties.

When this was brought up on previous occasions the developers did agree
to
try and emphasize the full title of the GNU Image Manipulation Program
(GIMP) in future.

The GNU General Public License (GPL) makes it entirely possible for
distributions to make their own changes and many often do but so far
most
have resisted changing the name, probably due to the extra effort of
maintaining such a change but if you suggest it to your preferred
distribution you never know they might go ahead and do it.

On the techincal side Sven Neumann has explained he does not wish to see
the project renamed and will not accept patches to make it easier for
third parties to change the name.
http://www.advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/diary.html?start=144#gimp

Perhaps his opinion has changed but at the time he wrote:
I seriously doubt that the name is effectively keeping GIMP from being
used. And I am all happy to ignore the very few people who are so
narrow-minded as to having a problem with the name.
http://www.mail-archive.com/gimp-developer%40lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/msg0
8677.html


Sincerely

Alan Horkan

Inkscape http://inkscape.org
Abiword http://www.abisource.com
Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org

Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/







___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread John R. Culleton
On Friday 29 September 2006 13:48, Roland Hordos wrote:
 Hi Alan,

 Thanks for an intelligent and articulate response.  I suspected the
 disconnect with reality, bringing me to post to the users list first
 instead of the developers'.  Being a software developer and contributor
 to other open source projects, I understand the complexity issues.  I
 also wish the community to grow past the selfishness of the proud
 consistent contributors.  If only they could see it from outside, it'd
 be obvious.

 thanks again, Roland;

Since I live near Finksburg and not too far from Scaggsville I am
perhps desensitized to such points of political correctness. But
I do remember from half a century ago a group of hotrodders who
proudly called themselves the Kreeping Krips of Kaiser-Kabat.
Kaiser was a hospital system and these particular hotrodders
built and modified their cars from their wheelchairs. 

There was an organization in the headquarters of Social Security called
the Public Inquiries Group. Someone objected to the initials so
they proposed changing their name to Public Inquiries Sub Section.  

Bottom line, I thought the name Gimp a bit lame when I first
heard it but now it falls trippingly from my tongue. 

- 
John Culleton
Able Indexing and Typesetting
Precision typesetting (tm) at reasonable cost.
Satisfaction guaranteed. 
http://wexfordpress.com


___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

On Fri, 2006-09-29 at 06:54 -0600, Roland Hordos wrote:

 While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a
 professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back because of the
 instant derogatory impact of the name.

First of all, it's called GIMP, not the GIMP.

Then, can you proove your claim? I very much doubt that you can because
it's just FUD. For most people on this planet, GIMP doesn't have any
special meaning.


Sven


___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread Geoffrey

Alan Horkan wrote:

On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, Roland Hordos wrote:


Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 06:54:48 -0600
From: Roland Hordos [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
Subject: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

Hi,

While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a
professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back because of the
instant derogatory impact of the name.  If someone who can champion this
task reads this, please humble yourself for the sake of this amazing
software that some of us are embarrassed to promote, or simply won't
until the name is changed.


I agree (and have always agreed but continued to use the software
nonetheless) however the changing of the name presents some difficulties.


It's not a word, it's an acronym.

Definitions of the WORD gimp:

an ornamental flat braid or round cord used as a trimming
SPIRIT, VIM
CRIPPLE
LIMP
LIMP, HOBBLE

So, I guess it's up to your interpretation.

--
Until later, Geoffrey

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 - Benjamin Franklin
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread Geoffrey

John R. Culleton wrote:


Bottom line, I thought the name Gimp a bit lame when I first
heard it but now it falls trippingly from my tongue. 


When I hear it in the context of software, I think of GIMP, not the 
'word' gimp.


--
Until later, Geoffrey

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 - Benjamin Franklin
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


RE: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread Roland Hordos
 For most people on this planet, GIMP doesn't have any special
meaning. ..
Thank you, I'll correct my original comment.  Change that to say:

While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a
professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back in the English
speaking world because of the instant derogatory impact of the name.
Gimp is a term in common culture that refers to a disabled person in a
demeaning way.

 can you proove your claim?
Sigh.  Try googling is gimp a derogatory term.  If you read the
sources at the first 10 hits and you still don't understand, then try
the next 15000.

Sven, coincidentally while I began to read your response I received a
call from an engineering user here wanting to edit a scanned document
with Paint or Photoshop.  I can't justify the cost of photoshop for 100
desktops and paint is useless.  I would install the GIMP software for
him in a heartbeat if I didn't worry that he might be offended by the
reference.  Any corporate business environment has, or should have, this
sense of decency.

Roland;

-Original Message-
From: Sven Neumann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:05 PM
To: Roland Hordos
Cc: gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name


Hi,

On Fri, 2006-09-29 at 06:54 -0600, Roland Hordos wrote:

 While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a
 professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back because of the
 instant derogatory impact of the name.

First of all, it's called GIMP, not the GIMP.

Then, can you proove your claim? I very much doubt that you can because
it's just FUD. For most people on this planet, GIMP doesn't have any
special meaning.


Sven









___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread Geoffrey

Roland Hordos wrote:

For most people on this planet, GIMP doesn't have any special

meaning. ..
Thank you, I'll correct my original comment.  Change that to say:

While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a
professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back in the English
speaking world because of the instant derogatory impact of the name.
Gimp is a term in common culture that refers to a disabled person in a
demeaning way.


I've been using gimp for a long while now, right here in the english 
speaking USA, and I've not once heard anyone comment regarding the name 
and associating it with the word 'gimp.'


I've also not heard anyone use the term gimp in the way you indicate in 
a very long time.   And I don't believe that's because people are more 
politically correct these days.  I think it's a term that just isn't 
used in this way any longer.


I think you're blowing this way out of proportion.

--
Until later, Geoffrey

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 - Benjamin Franklin
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread Patrick Shanahan
* Geoffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] [09-29-06 15:12]:
 Roland Hordos wrote:
 While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in
 a professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back in the
 English speaking world because of the instant derogatory impact of
 the name. Gimp is a term in common culture that refers to a disabled
 person in a demeaning way.
 
 I've been using gimp for a long while now, right here in the english 
 speaking USA, and I've not once heard anyone comment regarding the name 
 and associating it with the word 'gimp.'
 
 I've also not heard anyone use the term gimp in the way you indicate in 
 a very long time.   And I don't believe that's because people are more 
 politically correct these days.  I think it's a term that just isn't 
 used in this way any longer.
 
 I think you're blowing this way out of proportion.

I agree.  At any rate, a simple explanation that GIMP is an acronym
rather than term which may or may not be received as a derogatory
adjective should suffice.  If it doesn't, the audience is already
biased to the point of waisted effort.
-- 
Patrick ShanahanRegistered Linux User #207535
http://wahoo.no-ip.org@ http://counter.li.org
HOG # US1244711 Photo Album:  http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread bruno . vasta
Selon Roland Hordos [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Hi,

 While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a
 professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back because of the
 instant derogatory impact of the name.  If someone who can champion this
 task reads this, please humble yourself for the sake of this amazing
 software that some of us are embarrassed to promote, or simply won't
 until the name is changed.

 Thank you.

 Roland Hordos
 IT Manager





I can only say that in french Gimp don't have any sens or means...Ok...it's a
big troll on french forums about Photoshop is the best! Gimp rules !...but
the name in itself have no sens.
As a froggy, I love the sound of The Gimp even if it's an acronym.

Sincerely.
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


RE: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread Jakub Steiner
On Fri, 2006-09-29 at 12:38 -0600, Roland Hordos wrote:

  can you proove your claim?
 Sigh.  Try googling is gimp a derogatory term.  If you read the
 sources at the first 10 hits and you still don't understand, then try
 the next 15000.

Hi Roland,

what Sven possibly meant here was for you to prove that the name GIMP is
a reason why the product isn't used in a professional IT setting,
whatever that is. I have been using GIMP professionally for over 5 years
and Novell, Inc. for example doesn't have a problem selling it as part
of their enterprise OS.

cheers

-- 
Jakub Steiner [EMAIL PROTECTED]

___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread Manish Singh
On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 12:38:02PM -0600, Roland Hordos wrote:
  can you proove your claim?
 Sigh.  Try googling is gimp a derogatory term.  If you read the
 sources at the first 10 hits and you still don't understand, then try
 the next 15000.

That is not proof. 

Search for just plain gimp on any major search engine, and the
majority of the links refer to this project.

In fact, changing the name of the project would hurt adoption more, by
giving up search engine presence, and having a fairly easy to remember
four letter name as a search term to begin with.

 Sven, coincidentally while I began to read your response I received a
 call from an engineering user here wanting to edit a scanned document
 with Paint or Photoshop.  I can't justify the cost of photoshop for 100
 desktops and paint is useless.  I would install the GIMP software for
 him in a heartbeat if I didn't worry that he might be offended by the
 reference.  Any corporate business environment has, or should have, this
 sense of decency.

Most corporate business environments would be in violation of their
terms of governence by rejecting potential cost-savings solely on
nebulous claims such as this. You probably should be reprimanded for
this behavior.

-Yosh
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread Eric P
Jakub Steiner wrote:
 On Fri, 2006-09-29 at 12:38 -0600, Roland Hordos wrote:
 
 what Sven possibly meant here was for you to prove that the name GIMP is
 a reason why the product isn't used in a professional IT setting,
 whatever that is. I have been using GIMP professionally for over 5 years
 and Novell, Inc. for example doesn't have a problem selling it as part
 of their enterprise OS.
 

Here's one example for you.

I've used GIMP for about 5 years in a professional capacity at 2 different 
places of employment.  At the first place, I
was in a marketing department.  We all had Photoshop installed, but I used GIMP 
95% of the time.  The VP of marketing
would always smirk and make some dorky comment whenever he was looking over my 
shoulder and asked what software I was
using.  Basically, he didn't take GIMP as very serious software due to its 
name.  Granted, if he took the time to let me
show him how awesome GIMP is, he would come around.  But he simply doesn't have 
the time for that (not a hands-on
graphics guy), but he makes the final say of which graphic software packages we 
use/purchase.  That's a piece of US
culture for you that's not tied into the OS market.

Personally, I think the name should change not because I find GIMP derogatory 
but because I think a name that somewhat
identified (even vaguely) what sphere the software is used it would be a boon.

Inkscape is an excellent name in my opinion.  It is somewhat ambiguous, but you 
definitely know that software named
Inkscape must have something to do with the artistic sphere.  That's all you 
really need.

Eric
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread Owen
On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 06:54:48 -0600
Roland Hordos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hi,
  
 While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a
 professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back because of the
 instant derogatory impact of the name.  If someone who can champion this
 task reads this, please humble yourself for the sake of this amazing
 software that some of us are embarrassed to promote, or simply won't
 until the name is changed.


I am amazed and have never followed this up. In what language is Gimp an 
derogatory term? Certainly has no meaning in my language

I suspect it might just be an issue local to a country, like durex is a condom 
in the UK, sticky tape here


Owen

___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread Joshua \Angrad\ Burdick
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gimpI personally don't care either way.Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 06:54:48 -0600"Roland Hordos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi,   While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back because of the instant derogatory impact of the name.  If someone who can champion this task reads this, please humble yourself for the sake of this amazing software that some of us are embarrassed to promote, or simply won't until the name is changed.I am amazed and have never followed this up. In what language is Gimp an derogatory term? Certainly has no meaning in my languageI suspect it might just be an
 issue local to a country, like durex is a condom in the UK, sticky tape hereOwen___Gimp-user mailing listGimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDUhttps://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user 
		 All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


RE: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

On Fri, 2006-09-29 at 12:38 -0600, Roland Hordos wrote:

 While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a
 professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back in the English
 speaking world because of the instant derogatory impact of the name.
 Gimp is a term in common culture that refers to a disabled person in a
 demeaning way.

Sigh. All major commercial Linux distributors in the English speaking
world include the GNU Image Manipulation Program. Most of them even
print the acronym on the box or mention it prominently in the product
description. If you have a look at the IT section of any major book
store, you will find books about GIMP. I think you are by far
overestimating the derogatory impact.


Sven


___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread Raphaël Quinet
On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 16:00:25 -0500, Eric P [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Personally, I think the name should change not because I find GIMP derogatory 
 but because I think a name that somewhat
 identified (even vaguely) what sphere the software is used it would be a 
 boon. 
 Inkscape is an excellent name in my opinion.  It is somewhat ambiguous, but 
 you definitely know that software named
 Inkscape must have something to do with the artistic sphere.  That's all you 
 really need.

I agree.  Among the various arguments about changing GIMP's name, this
is probably the only one that makes a bit of sense.  This is not a
problem for those who know that GIMP actually stands for GNU Image
Manipulation Program but those who do not know GIMP yet will probably
not know the expansion of the acronym either.  Besides, the acronym is
rarely expanded in casual talks and most users see only GIMP in the
splash screen and in the window titles so they may not even know what
this stands for.

It may be interesting to associate the name of the application with
what it does.  If we look at GIMP and its derivatives, we have:
  GIMP- Meaningless unless it is expanded.
  FilmGimp- Not too bad, but not used anymore.
  CinePaint   - Good.  Unique and directly linked to the right area.
  GIMPshop- Awful. This only has a meaning for Photoshop users. If
the goal was to use a name that contains parts of
Photoshop's name, then picking PhotoGIMP would have been
better.  But plagiarism is not a good idea anyway.
  Seashore- Meaningless.
And if we look at other projects and products, we have (besides
several products called Paint or Painter):
  Krita   - Meaningless except if you speak Swedish
  KolourPaint - Good.
  Tux paint   - Good.
  Tile Studio - Not too bad but specialized.
  mtPaint - Not too bad.
  Dogwaffle   - Bad.
  Picasa  - Not too bad.
  PicMaster   - Not too bad.
  Pixel   - Good but the term is too common.
  Photoshop   - Not too bad.
  PaintShop Pro - Not too bad.
  Fireworks   - A bit confusing, but inspiring.
  PhotoImpact - Good.
  PhotoPaint  - Good.
For the vector drawing programs, names like InkScape, Skencil or
Sketch are rather good.

Several other applications in the same area seem to have more
interesting names.  Maybe GIMP could become more popular if it
switched to a name that is more directly associated with graphics.
Maybe not.  As Yosh mentioned, GIMP already has some mindshare and a
new name would not only have to be good, it would have to be good
enough to justify sacrificing the popularity of the current name.

So feel free to propose better names that are:
- related to the graphics, photo or image manipulation domains
- cool, inspiring
- unique so that we don't run into trademark problems
- short enough to fit in the applications menu or window titles
- suitable for most languages and cultures

If you find a name that meets all these criteria and would probably be
immediately adopted by a marketing team if GIMP were a commercial
product, then keep in mind that you would still have 90% chance to
have the name rejected because some developers simply do not want to
change the name.  With that in mind, I wish you good luck...

-Raphaël
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


RE: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread Roland Hordos
True, so here goes for my case:

 .. professional IT setting, whatever that is. ..
Windows desktops for Administration, Accounting, Drafting, Engineering,
and Executive personnel.

 .. Novell, Inc. .. as part of their enterprise OS. ..
Not user facing.  It's a Windows world, let's be honest.  I run Linux on
every server except 2, but servers don't need graphic editors.

Thanks for the clarification.  Sorry if I misinterpreted your point
Sven.

Roland;


-Original Message-
From: Jakub Steiner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:08 PM
To: Roland Hordos
Cc: Sven Neumann; gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
Subject: RE: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name


On Fri, 2006-09-29 at 12:38 -0600, Roland Hordos wrote:

  can you proove your claim?
 Sigh.  Try googling is gimp a derogatory term.  If you read the
 sources at the first 10 hits and you still don't understand, then try
 the next 15000.

Hi Roland,

what Sven possibly meant here was for you to prove that the name GIMP is
a reason why the product isn't used in a professional IT setting,
whatever that is. I have been using GIMP professionally for over 5 years
and Novell, Inc. for example doesn't have a problem selling it as part
of their enterprise OS.

cheers

--
Jakub Steiner [EMAIL PROTECTED]








___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread Warren Baird

Owen wrote:

On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 06:54:48 -0600
Roland Hordos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Hi,
 
While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a

professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back because of the
instant derogatory impact of the name.  If someone who can champion this
task reads this, please humble yourself for the sake of this amazing
software that some of us are embarrassed to promote, or simply won't
until the name is changed.



I am amazed and have never followed this up. In what language is Gimp an 
derogatory term? Certainly has no meaning in my language


What is your language?

In English 'gimp' is defined to mean both someone who has a physical 
deformity that results in a limp - see definitions 3 and 4 at 
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/gimp or the fifth entry in 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimp, or any of several entries at 
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gimp


I've also heard it used for side-show freaks who like to do things like 
hammer nails up their nostrils.



I suspect it might just be an issue local to a country, like durex is a condom 
in the UK, sticky tape here


well - it's probably only an issue in English speaking countries (at 
least Canada and the US), but still...


I must admit that when I've told non-open source users the name of the 
image manipulation app I use, a lot of people haven't taken it seriously 
 because of the name.


I'm not 100% sure I'd suggest a name change, but I must agree that there 
is probably a large portion of the population who would take the project 
less seriously because of the current name, and a small portion of the 
population who would be actively offended by the current name.


Warren
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


RE: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread Roland Hordos
Unreal.  Okay, here in Canada the google search I indicated brings up
the following in order of top ranking:

1)  The first is this link where someone with Cerebral Palsy is
discussing the term Gimp and other derogatory terms
http://www.flspinalcord.us/FSCIRC-Directors-Blog.cfm

2)  The second link hits Wikipedia, with the very first part of the
excerpt on the search indicating Gimp is usually a derogatory term ..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimp_(sadomasochism)

3)  The third link goes to The Linux Advocate blog where the author is
comparing Gimp vs. Photoshop and what do you suppose is the first item
on his list .. The Name.
http://thelinuxadvocate.blogspot.com/2006/08/gimp-vs-photoshop-what-stil
l-needs-to.html

These go on and on, but perhaps it's only a North American cultural
effect.  My point remains the same.

Yosh, with an e-mail address at gimp.org I'd count you on the side of
proud long term or regular contributor who is simply not going to see
any other side.  If you can point out a single commercial product that
has mass use in North America that has a derogatory term in it's title,
I'll withdraw my critique and be gone.  I consider the quality of the
GIMP on par with much commercial software, but it has an image problem
(pun however you want it).

Roland;


-Original Message-
From: Manish Singh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Manish Singh
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:46 PM
To: Roland Hordos
Cc: Sven Neumann; gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name


On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 12:38:02PM -0600, Roland Hordos wrote:
  can you proove your claim?
 Sigh.  Try googling is gimp a derogatory term.  If you read the
 sources at the first 10 hits and you still don't understand, then try
 the next 15000.

That is not proof.

Search for just plain gimp on any major search engine, and the
majority of the links refer to this project.

In fact, changing the name of the project would hurt adoption more, by
giving up search engine presence, and having a fairly easy to remember
four letter name as a search term to begin with.

 Sven, coincidentally while I began to read your response I received a
 call from an engineering user here wanting to edit a scanned document
 with Paint or Photoshop.  I can't justify the cost of photoshop for
100
 desktops and paint is useless.  I would install the GIMP software for
 him in a heartbeat if I didn't worry that he might be offended by the
 reference.  Any corporate business environment has, or should have,
this
 sense of decency.

Most corporate business environments would be in violation of their
terms of governence by rejecting potential cost-savings solely on
nebulous claims such as this. You probably should be reprimanded for
this behavior.

-Yosh







___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread Manish Singh
On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 05:32:46PM -0600, Roland Hordos wrote:
 Unreal.  Okay, here in Canada the google search I indicated brings up
 the following in order of top ranking:
 
 1)  The first is this link where someone with Cerebral Palsy is
 discussing the term Gimp and other derogatory terms
 http://www.flspinalcord.us/FSCIRC-Directors-Blog.cfm
 
 2)  The second link hits Wikipedia, with the very first part of the
 excerpt on the search indicating Gimp is usually a derogatory term ..
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimp_(sadomasochism)
 
 3)  The third link goes to The Linux Advocate blog where the author is
 comparing Gimp vs. Photoshop and what do you suppose is the first item
 on his list .. The Name.
 http://thelinuxadvocate.blogspot.com/2006/08/gimp-vs-photoshop-what-stil
 l-needs-to.html
 
 These go on and on, but perhaps it's only a North American cultural
 effect.  My point remains the same.

Irrelevant. Of course a search for is gimp a derogatory term will
bring up hits about derogatory terms, because a search for derogatory
term will bring up hits about derogatory terms as well.

Like I said before, a search for GIMP itself brings a majority hits
related to the project. You seem to have ignored that. Following your
claim that search engines have the pulse on cultural effects, that means
that the use of gimp as something insulting has very low usage, relative
to other usage.

You also ignored my point that changing the name would abandon current
search engine rankings and harm the project more than whatever gains
by bending over to the childish demands of people who only judge things
on names and can't actually think through things properly.

 Yosh, with an e-mail address at gimp.org I'd count you on the side of
 proud long term or regular contributor who is simply not going to see
 any other side.  If you can point out a single commercial product that
 has mass use in North America that has a derogatory term in it's title,
 I'll withdraw my critique and be gone.  I consider the quality of the
 GIMP on par with much commercial software, but it has an image problem
 (pun however you want it).

Nah, you'll be gone because you're an idiot who just wants to stir
trouble and pull claims out thin air, with no basis behind them
whatsoever.

The way you answered my mail illustrates that you can't defend your
ridiculous claims and choose to hide behind silly handwaving instead.

-Yosh
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread Steve Bibayoff

Hello,

On 9/29/06, Roland Hordos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
...

[...]If you can point out a single commercial product that
has mass use in North America that has a derogatory term in it's title,


Yahoo


I'll withdraw my critique and be gone.


:-)


Steve
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread Alan Wolfe
FYI today i was sitting here at a semi new job (been here for a month) at a major skate shoe company, and i needed to edit an image.

my options were...
A) use microsoft paint
B) put in a software license request and wait 2 weeks

i chose option C
C) install gimp

from this perspective, the name doesn't matter...the functionality and the licensing are what made me choose the gimp.

plus, when i installed it a co-worker said gimp? whats that i think the name makes it memorable.




On 9/29/06, Steve Bibayoff [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote: 
Hello,On 9/29/06, Roland Hordos 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  wrote:... [...]If you can point out a single commercial product that has mass use in North America that has a derogatory term in it's title,Yahoo I'll withdraw my critique and be gone. 
:-)Steve___Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDUhttps://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user

___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread vt
Saturday 30 September 2006 01:35, Raphaël Quinet rašė:


 If you find a name that meets all these criteria and would probably be
 immediately adopted by a marketing team if GIMP were a commercial
 product, then keep in mind that you would still have 90% chance to
 have the name rejected because some developers simply do not want to
 change the name.  With that in mind, I wish you good luck...

 -Raphaël

Aquarel
Akryl
Colourbox - Kolorbox
Graphill
Grafill
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread Michael Schumacher
Roland Hordos wrote:

 If you can point out a single commercial product that has 
 mass use in North America that has a derogatory term in it's title,
 I'll withdraw my critique and be gone. 

Spam.

Both sorts.



HTH,
Michael


-- 
GIMP  http://www.gimp.org  | IRC: irc://irc.gimp.org/gimp
Wiki  http://wiki.gimp.org | .de: http://gimpforum.de
Plug-ins  http://registry.gimp.org |
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread David Herman
On Friday 29 September 2006 11:38, Roland Hordos wrote:


 Sven, coincidentally while I began to read your response I
 received a call from an engineering user here wanting to edit a
 scanned document with Paint or Photoshop.  I can't justify the
 cost of photoshop for 100 desktops and paint is useless.  I would
 install the GIMP software for him in a heartbeat if I didn't
 worry that he might be offended by the reference.  Any corporate
 business environment has, or should have, this sense of decency.

I guess we are fortunate that GIMP is not a corporate or buisiness 
offering so we don't have to spend 100's of dollars to install it.

Freedom of choice is such a burden.


dh

-- 
dh
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread Eric P
Owen wrote:
 On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 06:54:48 -0600
 
 I suspect it might just be an issue local to a country, like durex is a 
 condom in the UK, sticky tape here
 
Thanks for clarifying that.  I've always wondered why I can't get those suckers 
off!
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread Chris Mohler

I recall a team we played against in HS - they named the school First
Assembly of God School.  You can imagine the amount of harassment
they got that first year over *that* acronym on the side of the bus.
The name became First Assembly of Christ School the next year...

I do not believe that GIMP should be renamed.  Anyone who takes
offense should simply grow up a little.  Renaming things in 'decent'
or 'sanitary' ways is foolish at best.

Chris
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user


Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

2006-09-29 Thread Tim Jedlicka
If you can't beat 'em, join 'emHere in the USA there is a term for photographers looking at their LCD after a photo. It is known as CHIMPING - 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimping
All of us GIMPers should work on changing the term from CHIMPing to GIMPing - this will solve both problems. GIMPing will be associated with digital photography AND make the term GIMP even more acceptable than it already is - I don't recall who said it (Martin Luther King Jr.?) but ...embrace the word and it loses its power to hurt. 
If this doesn't work I'd suggest the new name of, dogwaffle..oh damn! it's already taken!For those of you claiming the name GIMP is holding back adoption, please include what other open source products your company HAS adopted - surely they have readily embraced OpenOffice, MrProject, Inkscape, Evolution (although in my backwards country this term is more offensive than GIMP these days) ... I contend people refuse to adopt due to ignorance not insult (that goes for evolution as well as GIMP by the way).


-- Tim Jedlicka, Network Entomologist[EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.galifree.com
___
Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user