Re: [Gimp-user] Re: GimpShop

2005-04-06 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Olivier Ripoll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I cannot find this in the API documents in developer.gimp.org. Could
 you please provide a URL ?

I think I said it's in the GTK+ API reference, didn't I?

http://developer.gnome.org/doc/API/2.0/gtk/GtkUIManager.html


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-user] Re: GimpShop

2005-04-05 Thread Karine Delvare
 Then, it is true that the developers do not find this interface
 skinning desirable (it breaks documentation badly). The xml menus were
 first considered as a developer-only feature to simplify their work.
 Some people found it a new application, which is fine too.

About breaking documentation, what if:

The GIMP comes with a menu layout. The GIMP documentation relies on this
layout. It also documents the ability to change this layout, so users can
play with the xml files if they really want to.
Some users provide completely changed layout to other users who need the
same changes. These changes are not part of The GIMP, but something you
have to get and to apply to The GIMP. So it's not an option in The GIMP
configuration, it's a new thing that come on top of it. It's the
responsibility of the provider of the new layout to document it / provide
easy installation of the layout / whatever.

(I'm pretty sure mimicking-layouts are not a good way to learn The GIMP
for new users, but now it has started I don't really see how to stop it,
as some users do think it will help them. As someone else pointed out, if
this is just about getting a free Photoshop they are going the wrong way
and will discover it soon enough.)

Karine

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Re: [Gimp-user] Re: GimpShop

2005-04-05 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Olivier Ripoll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I think this is just a question of time/resources. The possibility to
 change the gimp menus is quite new (since version 2.2). It took much
 time to restructure the old code in order to have this
 possibility. IIRC, glade introduced the xml-interface several years
 ago but it had to propagate through gtk first before being usable in
 gimp (without adding dependencies on libglade).

Sorry that I have to correct you, but before this spreads further I'd
like to state that the GtkUIManager XML files are completely unrelated
to Glade or libglade.

 Now it is possible, but not documented.

It is documented in the GTK+ API reference and GIMP even ships with a
DTD that describes the format.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-user] Re: GimpShop

2005-04-04 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 That is a whole lot of maintainance work, way more than you might
 think.  I would hope optimistically that things could be adjusted to
 work well for all kinds of users and I think it would be better to
 make efforts to improve the defaults first (but developers will
 spend time on whatever they are most interested in).

AFAIK, a bunch of people are already working on improving the menu
hierarchy. Anyone who feels that he/she can contribute, should join
this effort. This is definitely not something that should be done by
developers, at least not by developers only. The developers have done
their job already, the menu structure is easily editable since GIMP
2.2. Now it's up to the users to discuss menu structure and to come up
with a reasonable proposal for changes. Implementing these changes is
the trivial part.

Of course it should be kept in mind that the user manual as well as
the translations need updating as well. For this reason I don't think
that the menu labels and/or their order should be themeable. That
would break translation and the documentation. Good defaults is what
we should try to achieve.

 I think the point about finding menu items is worth considering but
 we already deal with users in various langauges (and therefore
 different lables for the same things) and I think this problem could
 be reduced if the PDB Browser could be improved to allow users to
 search for things more easily.

I don't see how the Procedure Browser is relevent here since it is a
tool for script and plug-in authors and doesn't deal at all with menus
or the user interface in general.

 I have a custom version of PDB Browser that allows me to search by
 Name, Summary ('cause blurb is too much common slang), Description
 and a bunch of other fields too.  (I'm not sure if I ever asked for
 the built in version to be improved, for some reason I have a
 feeling I might have.)

I don't think you did and you know very well how to do this
properly. Please open a bug report and attach a diff to it.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-user] Re: GimpShop

2005-04-04 Thread Manish Singh
On Mon, Apr 04, 2005 at 02:08:03AM +0100, Alan Horkan wrote:
 
  Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 22:46:47 -0500 (EST)
  From: Jonathan D Gibbons [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu
  Subject: [Gimp-user] Re: GimpShop
 
  Now, what I think would be really wonderful along these lines would be a
  setup whereby The Gimp can be easily skinned to a rearranged UI like
  this.
 
 That is a whole lot of maintainance work, way more than you might think.
 I would hope optimistically that things could be adjusted to work well for
 all kinds of users and I think it would be better to make efforts to
 improve the defaults first (but developers will spend time on whatever
 they are most interested in).
 
 If it is possible to make these kinds of changes and enough people are
 interested it will probably happen (like it just did) so it makes sense to
 try and allow it (and do so in a way that can be maintained) rather than
 telling people to fork if they do not like the user interface.
 
 I think the point about finding menu items is worth considering but we
 already deal with users in various langauges (and therefore different
 lables for the same things) and I think this problem could be reduced if
 the PDB Browser could be improved to allow users to search for things more
 easily.

Given that all the string changes in GimpShop occured in translatable
strings, one wonders why patching the source was needed at all. The only
other changes were to the menu files, which have been external since the
change to GtkUIManager.

In fact, with a slight change to GIMP to make the location for the menu
files locale aware, one could make a en_US.pshop locale and dist just
the .po and .xml files instead of having to track the entire source code
base.

Ironically, I note that gimpshop doesn't appear to use the ps-menurc
file by default.

-Yosh
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Re: [Gimp-user] Re: GimpShop

2005-04-04 Thread Michael Schumacher

 Given that all the string changes in GimpShop occured in translatable
 strings, one wonders why patching the source was needed at all. The only
 other changes were to the menu files, which have been external since the
 change to GtkUIManager.

Maybe for the script-fus...
 
 In fact, with a slight change to GIMP to make the location for the menu
 files locale aware, one could make a en_US.pshop locale and dist just
 the .po and .xml files instead of having to track the entire source code
 base.

Yep, would be worth a try. Having a separate package for trying GimpShop
would be much better than the current solution.

 Ironically, I note that gimpshop doesn't appear to use the ps-menurc
 file by default.

Huh? Something gives me the impression that the GimpShop author hould have
spent more time in #gimp...


Michael

-- 
Sparen beginnt mit GMX DSL: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl
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Re: [Gimp-user] Re: GimpShop

2005-04-04 Thread Alan Horkan

On Mon, 4 Apr 2005, Sven Neumann wrote:

 Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 10:27:38 +0200
 From: Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: Jonathan D Gibbons [EMAIL PROTECTED], gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu
 Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Re: GimpShop

 Hi,

 Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  That is a whole lot of maintainance work, way more than you might
  think.  I would hope optimistically that things could be adjusted to
  work well for all kinds of users and I think it would be better to
  make efforts to improve the defaults first (but developers will
  spend time on whatever they are most interested in).

 AFAIK, a bunch of people are already working on improving the menu
 hierarchy. Anyone who feels that he/she can contribute, should join
 this effort. This is definitely not something that should be done by
 developers, at least not by developers only. The developers have done

I use the term developer in a much broader sense than perhaps you do (I
would include all kinds of contributors).  I'm aware of the menu
reoganisation plan but I lost interest due to the wiki downtime and I dont
expect to have time to contribute to it again anytime soon.

 their job already, the menu structure is easily editable since GIMP
 2.2. Now it's up to the users to discuss menu structure and to come up
 with a reasonable proposal for changes. Implementing these changes is
 the trivial part.

Sure, I dont disagree with that.

 Of course it should be kept in mind that the user manual as well as
 the translations need updating as well.

Very true, this is part of what I was getting at with point about the
amount of maintaince work that would be needed.

 For this reason I don't think that the menu labels and/or their order
 should be themeable. That would break translation and the documentation.
 Good defaults is what we should try to achieve.


  I think the point about finding menu items is worth considering but
  we already deal with users in various langauges (and therefore
  different lables for the same things) and I think this problem could
  be reduced if the PDB Browser could be improved to allow users to
  search for things more easily.

 I don't see how the Procedure Browser is relevent here since it is a

You probably know the GNU Image manipulation program like the back of your
hand but I think using the Procedure Browser/Plugin Database it to search
for things is a massively useful and underrated feature.  It encourages
users to more easily find things for themselves rather than needing to ask
questions or trawl through the documentation.

 tool for script and plug-in authors and doesn't deal at all with menus
 or the user interface in general.

Even though it doesn't cover the whole user interface it is still useful
and if it did cover the whole user interface and even allow me to Apply a
filter once I've found it it would make a very useful tool (maybe
something like the effects browser found in Jasc Paint Shop Pro).

  I have a custom version of PDB Browser that allows me to search by
  Name, Summary ('cause blurb is too much common slang), Description
  and a bunch of other fields too.  (I'm not sure if I ever asked for
  the built in version to be improved, for some reason I have a
  feeling I might have.)

 I don't think you did and you know very well how to do this
 properly. Please open a bug report and attach a diff to it.

It was just a comment.  If I had time I was going to check it later and
perhaps file a request, no need to jump down my throat.  I did mention the
ideas before and suggest improvements before but they were superceded by
changes Yosh made.  http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=156340

The custom code I had was in Python (very easy for me to prototype and
test) and making a new patch against the PDB browser/Plugin database and
properly testing it is quite a different matter.  Providing a properly
tested diff against the current codebase is another question entirely.
Also the tradeoff of simply adding all the extra search buttons to the
user interface is that it makes it look really ugly and cluttered
(although buttons for just Summary and Description could be added
relatively easily) and I never had time to think up a good way to present
the other functionality.

I'll try and find time to file a new request but I have other work to do
for now.  Gotta go.

Sincerely

Alan Horkan
http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/

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Re: [Gimp-user] Re: GimpShop

2005-04-04 Thread Manish Singh
On Mon, Apr 04, 2005 at 01:03:13PM +0200, Michael Schumacher wrote:
 
  Given that all the string changes in GimpShop occured in translatable
  strings, one wonders why patching the source was needed at all. The only
  other changes were to the menu files, which have been external since the
  change to GtkUIManager.
 
 Maybe for the script-fus...

script-fu menu paths are translatable as well.
  
  In fact, with a slight change to GIMP to make the location for the menu
  files locale aware, one could make a en_US.pshop locale and dist just
  the .po and .xml files instead of having to track the entire source code
  base.
 
 Yep, would be worth a try. Having a separate package for trying GimpShop
 would be much better than the current solution.
 
  Ironically, I note that gimpshop doesn't appear to use the ps-menurc
  file by default.
 
 Huh? Something gives me the impression that the GimpShop author hould have
 spent more time in #gimp...

Yeah, a little constructive discussion would've gone a long way to
produce something actually maintainable.

-Yosh
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Re: [Gimp-user] Re: GimpShop

2005-04-04 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 You probably know the GNU Image manipulation program like the back of your
 hand but I think using the Procedure Browser/Plugin Database it to search
 for things is a massively useful and underrated feature.  It encourages
 users to more easily find things for themselves rather than needing to ask
 questions or trawl through the documentation.

You are confusing the Plug-In and the Procedure Browser. While the
former is indeed useful to locate plug-ins (not core functionality
though), the latter is only of interest to script and plug-in authors.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-user] Re: GimpShop

2005-04-04 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Michael Schumacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Huh? Something gives me the impression that the GimpShop author
 hould have spent more time in #gimp...

He didn't care to ask any of the developers before starting this. All
he did was asking a question in a GIMP forum that deals with resources
like brushes, patterns and the like. I found this question by accident
and asked him to join the menu reorganization effort instead but he
ignored that advice.


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-user] Re: GimpShop

2005-04-04 Thread Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris
On Monday 04 April 2005 15:29, Sven Neumann wrote:
 Hi,

 Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  You probably know the GNU Image manipulation program like the
  back of your hand but I think using the Procedure Browser/Plugin
  Database it to search for things is a massively useful and
  underrated feature.  It encourages users to more easily find
  things for themselves rather than needing to ask questions or
  trawl through the documentation.

 You are confusing the Plug-In and the Procedure Browser. While the
 former is indeed useful to locate plug-ins (not core functionality
 though), the latter is only of interest to script and plug-in
 authors.


Pardon Sven,
But Alan certainly is not confusing both things. I was working with 
him in the mentioned changes for the python PDB. The fact is that 
browsing the PDB entries added by plug-ins one can find out, in a  
consistent, although not proper, interface, what each plug-in in the 
GIMP does.

Regards,
JS
--

 Sven
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Re: [Gimp-user] Re: GimpShop

2005-04-03 Thread David Herman
On Saturday 02 April 2005 7:46 pm, Jonathan D Gibbons wrote:
 Now, what I think would be really wonderful along these lines
 would be a setup whereby The Gimp can be easily skinned to a
 rearranged UI like this.
 That way, we can have a Gimp skin that is familiar to Photoshop
 users, a Gimp skin that is familiar to FireWorks users, etc., and
 perhaps even some that are simply designed to be streamlined for
 a particular purpose - photo touchups, for example.

 Would make transitioning easier from the other major editors, and
 would even give the Gimp a leg up none of them have - you could
 switch UIs between one that you feel is easier for one task to
 one that is easier for another without actually changing programs
 - or paying for multiple programs, or needing space on disk for
 more programs.

Although I'm all in favour of people working in the way that works 
best for them I think the discussion on this list is missing an 
important point.

Imagine someone (a new user) has set their gimp menus up to resemble 
photoshop. Now for some reason they can't figure out how to scale 
their image. So they wisely come to this list (they are using gimp 
after all) and ask their question How do I scale an image?)
Answer Look in the tools menu under transform.

Unfortunately , since their menus are non standard they don't have 
this menu. Oh man, that gimp program sucks. I'm going back to 
pho... 

Not to disparrage the hard work that was put into this hack but...
Let gimp be gimp and photoshop be photoshop. I don't expect to see a 
rush of hackers trying to change pho... to look like the gimp

I suggest the acronym for gimp should be changed to

Gimp Is Mnot Photoshop

Thats my 2 cents

-- 
dh
Don't shop at ZipZoomFly.com!


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Re: [Gimp-user] Re: GimpShop

2005-04-03 Thread Tom Williams
David Herman wrote:
(snip)
Not to disparrage the hard work that was put into this hack but...
Let gimp be gimp and photoshop be photoshop.
I completely agree.
Peace...
Tom
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Re: [Gimp-user] Re: GimpShop

2005-04-03 Thread Frédéric
On Dimanche 03 Avril 2005 16:31, David Herman wrote:

 Imagine someone (a new user) has set their gimp menus up to resemble
 photoshop. Now for some reason they can't figure out how to scale
 their image. So they wisely come to this list (they are using gimp
 after all) and ask their question How do I scale an image?)
 Answer Look in the tools menu under transform.

 Unfortunately , since their menus are non standard they don't have
 this menu. Oh man, that gimp program sucks. I'm going back to
 pho...

Yes, this is true. But in another hand, I think that it is better to 
explain how to use a tool instead of telling him just click here, here 
and here, and that's it. If you know how to use tools such curves or 
level, and really know how they work, then you will be able to use either 
Gimp, Photoshop or whaterver soft you want.

If someone really want to use Gimp, he will find the menu. If gimpshop can 
help to migrate from Photoshop, this is OK. And if Gimp gives choice to 
arrange menus, this is great. Each one can choose the best solution for 
him.

And even if he ask for the place of a tool, there will be some other people 
using the same skin to help him.

My 2 euros...

-- 
   Frédéric

   http://www.gbiloba.org


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Re: [Gimp-user] Re: GimpShop

2005-04-03 Thread Tom Williams
Frédéric wrote:

(snip)
If someone really want to use Gimp, he will find the menu. If gimpshop can 
help to migrate from Photoshop, this is OK. And if Gimp gives choice to 
arrange menus, this is great. Each one can choose the best solution for 
him.
Based on the positive feedback on that blog, it sounds more like people are 
looking for a free PhotoShop than trying to migate to Gimp.  The more Gimp 
looks and feels like PhotoShop, the more people will think of it like PhotoShop 
and then come the change requests to have Gimp behave more in a PhotoShop-ish 
manner.

When you use the phrase migrate from PhotoShop, I interpret that to mean 
utilize tools or information to help ease the transition from the old to the 
new, which is something I don't think will happen with GimpShop.

If you go back and read some of the commentary in the blog, people are 
indirectly associating a good UI with a PhotoShop UI.  This doesn't mean the 
PhotoShop UI is a good UI but since so many are familiar with it, they 
consider PhotoShop as having a good UI instead of the reality of it having a 
familiar UI.

Peace...
Tom
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Re: [Gimp-user] Re: GimpShop

2005-04-03 Thread Geoffrey
Jonathan D Gibbons wrote:
Now, what I think would be really wonderful along these lines would be a 
setup whereby The Gimp can be easily skinned to a rearranged UI like 
this.
Personally, I'd prefer that the developers work on enhancing the tool 
rather than making the tool look pretty (ier).

I'd suggest that if someone likes the idea of skins, they take up that 
project and do it.  Then get it into the code.

--
Until later, Geoffrey
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Re: [Gimp-user] Re: GimpShop

2005-04-03 Thread Alan Horkan

 Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 22:46:47 -0500 (EST)
 From: Jonathan D Gibbons [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu
 Subject: [Gimp-user] Re: GimpShop

 Now, what I think would be really wonderful along these lines would be a
 setup whereby The Gimp can be easily skinned to a rearranged UI like
 this.

That is a whole lot of maintainance work, way more than you might think.
I would hope optimistically that things could be adjusted to work well for
all kinds of users and I think it would be better to make efforts to
improve the defaults first (but developers will spend time on whatever
they are most interested in).

If it is possible to make these kinds of changes and enough people are
interested it will probably happen (like it just did) so it makes sense to
try and allow it (and do so in a way that can be maintained) rather than
telling people to fork if they do not like the user interface.

I think the point about finding menu items is worth considering but we
already deal with users in various langauges (and therefore different
lables for the same things) and I think this problem could be reduced if
the PDB Browser could be improved to allow users to search for things more
easily.

I have a custom version of PDB Browser that allows me to search by Name,
Summary ('cause blurb is too much common slang), Description and a bunch
of other fields too.  (I'm not sure if I ever asked for the built in
version to be improved, for some reason I have a feeling I might have.)

 That way, we can have a Gimp skin that is familiar to Photoshop users, a

Although it is not exactly the kind of skin you are talking about I would
like a GTK theme that had a nice triangular slider widget like in
Photoshop.  (I suggested such a change to the ClearLooks theme for Gnome
but I haven't checked it recently to see if the idea was accepted.)

Sincerely

Alan Horkan

Inkscape http://inkscape.org
Abiword http://www.abisource.com
Dia http://gnome.org/projects/dia/
Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org

Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/


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Re: [Gimp-user] Re: GimpShop

2005-04-03 Thread Eric Pierce
Even with the Mnot bit?

On Sun, Apr 03, 2005 at 10:57:11AM -0700, Tom Williams wrote:
 David Herman wrote:
 
 (snip)
 
 Not to disparrage the hard work that was put into this hack but...
 Let gimp be gimp and photoshop be photoshop.
 
 I completely agree.
 
 Peace...
 
 Tom
 
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Re: [Gimp-user] Re: GimpShop

2005-04-03 Thread Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris
On Monday 04 April 2005 00:07, Eric Pierce wrote:
 Even with the Mnot bit?
Obviously, in time, it should be:
Gimp Is More than P.

(just check CVS splash screen :-)  )

 On Sun, Apr 03, 2005 at 10:57:11AM -0700, Tom Williams wrote:
  David Herman wrote:
 
  (snip)
 
  Not to disparrage the hard work that was put into this hack
   but... Let gimp be gimp and photoshop be photoshop.
 
  I completely agree.
 
  Peace...
 
  Tom

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