Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Hi, Manish Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And it is, when it boils down to it, a cop out fluff answer. Which is Carol's point, that it was a non-answer, and that she expected a better answer, more from a technical perspective. Sure. We all understood this already. It doesn't change the point though that whatever answer was given to whatever GIMP developer about the rationales of the design of the new file chooser widget is not a question that is interesting to our users, nor do any of the GIMP developers really care. It may be an interesting question for Carol but she got to live with whatever answer she has been given and stop harassing everyone for it. Actually I doubt that anyone but Carol is actually surprised about the answer. This topic has been discussed so many times that of course anyone involved has by now made up an answer that is tries to stop the discussion from coming up again. Basically there isn't much that has not yet been said about the new widget. What needs to be done now is to improve it. Of course in order to improve it, you first need to understand the reasons behind the design choices that have been made. There is however plenty of answers on this subject in various mailing list archives and web-pages (such as this one: http://www.gnome.org/~seth/designs/filechooser-spec/). The new file-chooser gives plenty of room for improvements and I am the first one to vote for the addition of a filename entry to it. The way that Carol discusses this topic is however a guaranteed way to drive away each and every developer who might be capable of doing such a change. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Hi, I'm not interested in gnome any way, I'm not interested in arguing anyone about file selectors at appropriate gtk lists. I think this is not gnome's businnes, it is gimp's businnes. If gnome's fileselector is bad, gimp should not. If gnome will be a toy of idiots, gimp should not. And I just dont understand, how is it possible to make a filedialog without filename entry? I dont understand, and I am sad, very sad. Things went wrong. In every aspects. was, Aewyn And yes, I know, I get mightiness's anger on me, but gimp's (!) new fileselector is a piece of crap. You can add my address to your spam assassin. Sorry. ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Hi, Aewyn [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm not interested in gnome any way, I'm not interested in arguing anyone about file selectors at appropriate gtk lists. I think this is not gnome's businnes, it is gimp's businnes. If gnome's fileselector is bad, gimp should not. If gnome will be a toy of idiots, gimp should not. You ignore that GIMP 2.1 is not using a GNOME file selection widget. What it uses is the new file chooser that is provided by GTK+, the GIMP toolkit. This new widget solves a lot of problems we had with the old one. The old file selection dialog has been the cause for numerous bug reports and user complaints. Of course not everyone can be satisfied and your mail clearly shows that you don't have much of a clue, let alone respect. But I think that most users will like the new dialog after getting used to it. It took a while for me to get used to it and I first had to create the bookmarks that I need. But now I usually get to my files quicker than I used to do. Only sometimes do I use the entry widget that is bound to Ctrl-L. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Thanks, Really, I'm an outsider in gtk/gnome topic. I just like gimp, and I'm afraid a little bit of gimp starts to leave bazaar concept as seen at gnome. I realized that old fileselector is not too perfect, so I used filemanager's drag and drop to open files. (what is nonsense to open a new app for that reason, but an image viewer is needed for graphics work, because gimp has not such a selector), so I will continue this way (until I learned the new one). Best regards, Aewyn On Tuesday 07 September 2004 12:15, Sven Neumann wrote: Hi, Aewyn [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm not interested in gnome any way, I'm not interested in arguing anyone about file selectors at appropriate gtk lists. I think this is not gnome's businnes, it is gimp's businnes. If gnome's fileselector is bad, gimp should not. If gnome will be a toy of idiots, gimp should not. You ignore that GIMP 2.1 is not using a GNOME file selection widget. What it uses is the new file chooser that is provided by GTK+, the GIMP toolkit. This new widget solves a lot of problems we had with the old one. The old file selection dialog has been the cause for numerous bug reports and user complaints. Of course not everyone can be satisfied and your mail clearly shows that you don't have much of a clue, let alone respect. But I think that most users will like the new dialog after getting used to it. It took a while for me to get used to it and I first had to create the bookmarks that I need. But now I usually get to my files quicker than I used to do. Only sometimes do I use the entry widget that is bound to Ctrl-L. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Manish Singh wrote: On Sun, Sep 05, 2004 at 09:55:59PM +0200, David Neary wrote: Getting something to the stage where my grandmother would use it is a proverbial way of describing making technology accessible to a larger public. I am sure this was the sense in which Luis was talking when he said he wanted something his mother could use. That is not the reason things are simplified, but it is a soundbite describing the general goal of opening things up to a larger public. And it is, when it boils down to it, a cop out fluff answer. Which is Carol's point, that it was a non-answer, and that she expected a better answer, more from a technical perspective. This is the essence of the whole issue. The bottom line is, Carol, or anyone else for that matter, deserved a real answer. Perhaps the assumption that making technology accessible to a larger, untrained public should be revisited. There wouldn't be spam if nobody bought from spammers. True. You're not going to please everyone, so you've got to target SOME audience. For example, a reasonable question regarding the change is: will this change benefit the majority of the user base? Sure, it's more complicated then that.. -- Until later, Geoffrey Registered Linux User #108567 ATT Certified UNIX System Programmer - 1995 ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Sven Neumann wrote: Hi, Manish Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And it is, when it boils down to it, a cop out fluff answer. Which is Carol's point, that it was a non-answer, and that she expected a better answer, more from a technical perspective. Sure. We all understood this already. It doesn't change the point though that whatever answer was given to whatever GIMP developer about the rationales of the design of the new file chooser widget is not a question that is interesting to our users, I must respectfully disagree, as a GIMP user, I am most definitely interested in the reason for the change. It may be that I am a developer as well, that prompts me to want to know, but the bottom line is, any time a change is made that seems to be less intuitive (to me), I'm going to wonder and inquire why the change was made. -- Until later, Geoffrey Registered Linux User #108567 ATT Certified UNIX System Programmer - 1995 ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Hi, Geoffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I must respectfully disagree, as a GIMP user, I am most definitely interested in the reason for the change. It may be that I am a developer as well, that prompts me to want to know, but the bottom line is, any time a change is made that seems to be less intuitive (to me), I'm going to wonder and inquire why the change was made. Well, the answer has been given here multiple times already. You did read the relevant threads that have been linked from this thread as well as the design spec that I mentioned yesterday? The answer is in their. So much for the reasoning behind the design of the GtkFileChooser. The reasons for us to switch to the new widget are that one of the major complaints about GIMP 1.2 and GIMP 2.0 was the horrible file selection dialog. The horrible API of the old widget is another reason to abandon it. We believe that the new dialog is an improvement. It works more like what people are used to from other desktop environments and due to the modular nature of the underlying GtkFileSystem it also (potentially) integrates better with whatever desktop you are using. There are a couple of issues with the new dialog but certainly less than there have been with the old one. Some of these issues can and will be fixed in GIMP (for example automatic preview generation), others can (and perhaps will) be fixed at the GTK+ level. Whether the GTK+ developers decide to accept any changes largely depends on the way that they are addressed. Constant bitching will make it very unlikely that any volunteer will want to spend time on this. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Sven, is it possible (in theory) to have several dialog types in GIMP at the same time? OpenOffice under Windows allow using native system openfile dialog or its own style dialog. A user can chhose it in the preferences. If anybody is interested, this could solve this problem at all. One way is to modify GTK+ to add several dialog types. Other is to add new type to GIMP but not to remove old one. -- With respect Alexander Rabtchevich ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Deserving answers (was: Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors)
Hi, Quoting Geoffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED]: This is the essence of the whole issue. The bottom line is, Carol, or anyone else for that matter, deserved a real answer. This is a misconception. People do not *deserve* answers to whatever question they choose to ask. There are good ways and bad ways to ask a question. The good ways involve a minimum of (1) asking the right person (2) in a way that won't piss them off (3) and waiting for the answer, and (4) reformulating your question if for some reason you're not happy with it (the answer). There's a whole essay that ESR wrote on this called Asking smart questions - a lot of the time I disagree with ESR, but many of the points in this essay are spot on. One of the big no-nos in asking smart questions is not to feel that you have a sense of entitlement. This is, of course, not specifically directed at this thread (thus the topic change), but is a general remark to people who feel they deserve any type of answers to questions they ask. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary Lyon, France ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Hi, Alexander Rabtchevich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Sven, is it possible (in theory) to have several dialog types in GIMP at the same time? OpenOffice under Windows allow using native system openfile dialog or its own style dialog. A user can chhose it in the preferences. Almost everything is (in theory) possible. The question is if it is feasible and the answer is no. We decorate the file chooser dialog quite a bit and that would not be possible (or rather not feasible) if it wasn't a well-defined dialog with a well-defined API. We don't have the resources to maintain a number of different file dialogs in GIMP (and all it's plug-ins). There are also a couple of features in the new file chooser that simply are not available in the old widget. We will for example want to introduce a virtual filesystem layer in future versions of GIMP. That would allow people to work directly with files on remote filesystems that are accessible over ssh, webdav, ftp, ... This has been requested every so often. The new filechooser supports this kind of stuff by means of the pluggable GtkFileSystem interface. We just need to extend GIMP and its file plug-ins so that they access files by means of a virtual filesystem layer. This could then be implemented for example using gnome-vfs but of course we would want to allow other implementations as well. All this won't work with the old file selection and it shows that your proposal is not feasible. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Sven Neumann wrote: Hi, Geoffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I must respectfully disagree, as a GIMP user, I am most definitely interested in the reason for the change. It may be that I am a developer as well, that prompts me to want to know, but the bottom line is, any time a change is made that seems to be less intuitive (to me), I'm going to wonder and inquire why the change was made. Well, the answer has been given here multiple times already. You did read the relevant threads that have been linked from this thread as well as the design spec that I mentioned yesterday? The answer is in their. Yes, I did and I do understand the reasoning. I was addressing your statement that: 'It doesn't change the point though that whatever answer was given to whatever GIMP developer about the rationales of the design of the new file chooser widget is not a question that is interesting to our users,' Which I disagreed with. Unfortunately in your followup, you neglected to have it as a part of your response. So much for the reasoning behind the design of the GtkFileChooser. I appreciate you restating the reasoning, but that was not the issue in the post you responded. I know we have beat this to death, but all I'm trying to say is that I believe Carol had a valid question which was not properly, professionally answered. Since I don't use the 2.1 series, I wouldn't see the change until it shows up in 2.2, thus I think it's a good thing that she brought it up. I try to stay on top of these kind of issues, but GIMP is not a tool I use terribly often. -- Until later, Geoffrey Registered Linux User #108567 ATT Certified UNIX System Programmer - 1995 ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Hi, Geoffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I would counter that Luis' answer was neither casual nor illustrative. A question was asked and either a insulting inaccurate answer was provide, or worse, a poor change in the toolkit was made for entirely the wrong reason. I don't understand what Miguel and Luis would have to do with the GtkFileChooser widget. I might be wrong but as far as I know they are not involved at all. I would agree to some extent, although as a long time user of GIMP, I think this list deserves to know the reason for the change. I've not seen it pass the list as of yet. This topic has been discussed to the maximum possible extent and way beyond on various GTK+ and GNOME mailing-lists. It would be rather off-topic here so I suggest you read the relevant archives. The fact that these discussions have very often been rather hostile has not helped at all. The developers responsible for the new file chooser widget have done a very good job at implementing the widget the way it has been planned a good while ago. Back then would have been the right time to complain. Complaining now is silly and counter-productive. What can be done right now is to attach patches to the many bug-reports in Bugzilla that ask for improvements to the widget. So far the developers have shown that they are very willing to incorporate such changes and the behaviour of the file-chooser widget is constantly being improved. Another thing that helps a lot is to learn how to work with the new file chooser. The screenshots that Carol has shown around, very clearly show that she hasn't learned to use the new widget yet. If she would start to make use of bookmarks (the left pane) she might find the widget less useless than it appears to her now. This discussion doesn't belong here. I told people what to do if you want to see the dialog improved. End of discussion! Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Hi, Khiraly [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have few ideas to improve the poor 2.1 fileselector. (yes, its me who came up already with one alternative) Which is the apropriate forum where can I write this ideas? Bugzilla has many good ideas about how to improve the file chooser. Did you even check yet if your idea is among them already? Most probably it is. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
On Mon, Sep 06, 2004 at 10:39:12AM +0200, Sven Neumann wrote: This discussion doesn't belong here. I told people what to do if you want to see the dialog improved. End of discussion! what i cut from this is developer issues. what has not been discussed is the stupid answer that i got. i went through the proper channels. people donated money. i was given a very expensive ticket to norway. i was told by several gtk developers to speak with luis. luis says that the changes were made for his mother. what about the money that was donated for this event and the ridiculous answer the employee of Ximian gave to me? i was told by owen taylor to speak to luis about this issue. the proper channels were gone through. this discussion is not ended as far as what the people who have donated money for gimp development should be able to expect. this discussion does not end until someone mails an apology to tim ney and reimburses the gimp portion of the gnome foundation for this stupid answer i received. perhaps you mr. neumann are only looking for internet dates carol ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Hi, Quoting Geoffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I would agree to some extent, although as a long time user of GIMP, I think this list deserves to know the reason for the change. I've not seen it pass the list as of yet. Seth Nickell was the owner of the file chooser design. Seth now works at RedHat, although I'm not sure he did at the time he came up with the design. The relevant lists for the filechooser discussions are usability: http://lists.gnome.org/archives/usability/ Notable threads: (excuse me, threads often start on other lists and get moved to usability, so I often don't have the start of the thread here) http://lists.gnome.org/archives/usability/2004-January/msg00149.html http://lists.gnome.org/archives/usability/2004-January/msg6.html http://lists.gnome.org/archives/usability/2004-February/msg00043.html http://lists.gnome.org/archives/usability/2004-April/msg00017.html gtk-devel-list: http://lists.gnome.org/archives/gtk-devel-list/ Notable threads: http://lists.gnome.org/archives/gtk-devel-list/2004-March/msg00172.html I was going to get a few more, but you can try your own searches. There are thousands (literally) of posts on gtk-list, gtk-devel-list and usability about the file chooser. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary Lyon, France ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Carol, if you want to discuss this any further, move it to a different channel. It doesn't belong to any of the GIMP mailing-lists. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
On Mon, 6 Sep 2004, Khiraly wrote: Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 02:47:43 +0200 From: Khiraly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors Hi! I have few ideas to improve the poor 2.1 fileselector. (yes, its me who came up already with one alternative) Which is the apropriate forum where can I write this ideas? Or its decided to not change? There are various bug reports and feature requests in Bugzilla against the new file chooser and I would recommend you look there first. http://bugzilla.gnome.org/buglist.cgi?short_desc_type=allwordssubstrshort_desc=product=gtk%2Bcomponent=GtkFileSellong_desc_type=allwordssubstrlong_desc=status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstrstatus_whiteboard=keywords_type=anywordskeywords=bug_status=UNCONFIRMEDbug_status=NEWbug_status=ASSIGNEDbug_status=REOPENEDemailtype1=substringemail1=emailtype2=substringemail2=bugidtype=includebug_id=changedin=chfieldfrom=chfieldto=Nowchfieldvalue=cmdtype=doitnamedcmd=Dia+-+All+Open+Bugsnewqueryname=order=Reuse+same+sort+as+last+timefield0-0-0=nooptype0-0-0=noopvalue0-0-0= Sincerely Alan Horkan http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ Inkscape, Draw Freely http://inkscape.org Free SVG Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
simon budig, here is the information for you: On Sun, Sep 05, 2004 at 12:00:27PM -0400, Miguel de Icaza wrote: Hello, For an introduction to this discussion, please see: http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/tmp/carol the archives of email I have received from this annoying person. is it official then, that volunteers must behave a certain way? i received a verbal assault because i was responding to mail that was sent by miguel to a list he is too important to subscribe to. here we have someone who actually took the time to *publish* my personal mail. can i please see the same treatment extended to miguel? or perhaps there can be a list of what makes miguel different than me and perhaps other volunteers. there are some differences. miguel does not work with gpl or gnu anymore, he works with microsoft design. miguel is male, i am female -- i really really hope that this is not an issue. i guess it is time to decide what behavior we are to expect from the corporate funded developers and the funded by the people developers. gimp is still gnu, right? carol ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
May this be my last mail about this on the mailinglist. Carol Spears ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: simon budig, here is the information for you: On Sun, Sep 05, 2004 at 12:00:27PM -0400, Miguel de Icaza wrote: Hello, For an introduction to this discussion, please see: http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/tmp/carol the archives of email I have received from this annoying person. Miguel, you'd do yourself and your credibility a favor if you'd treat personal emails with respect and not publish them on mailinglists. [...] or perhaps there can be a list of what makes miguel different than me and perhaps other volunteers. there are some differences. miguel does not work with gpl or gnu anymore, he works with microsoft design. you obviously did not understand the term dual licensing. miguel is male, i am female -- i really really hope that this is not an issue. You probably know better than me. At least this is a convenient explanation. i guess it is time to decide what behavior we are to expect from the corporate funded developers and the funded by the people developers. gimp is still gnu, right? Yes, although it has been funded by corporations. Probably more than you realize right now. Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
when i look for luis (you provided email lately, i looked right after i barely managed to correct my homeless situation right after guadec) i was told he was not available. in the real world, you go to the boss. this is you? you are the boss at Ximian? or who is responsible for I am not Luis or Federico's boss, they work on a different organization than I do. Even in that case, the decision to use the new file selector (as I have repeated now about three times) is not Luis/Owen/Federico, it was a decision by some hacker in the Gimp itself. So you are barking at the wrong tree. Miguel ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
On Mon, Sep 06, 2004 at 02:04:07PM -0400, Miguel de Icaza wrote: So you are barking at the wrong tree. dogs bark. working dogs bark maybe. i am not a dog. i am an energetic volunteer who did not get to drink from kegs of lambic. please respect the human beings who have been volunteering. who was/is in charge of luis? carol ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
please respect the human beings who have been volunteering. who was/is in charge of luis? I do not know. Do not bother sending me more e-mail, I have added you to my spam assassin. Miguel ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
1) i went to a developers conference. my trip to this conference was funded by a foundation and therefore the donations of people who are interested in gimp and gimp tool kit development. 2) several people on the list of people who are responsible for these changes pointed me to luis. 3) when i spoke to luis he explained to me that the changes were made for his mother. being a developer meeting and being the person i was instructed by to talk to, i have no other choice than to believe what he said. 4) after the conference, luis was unavailable. 5) if luis told the truth, it is time for Ximian to get their hands out of development of gtk. if luis did not tell the truth, someone at Ximian owes me, the people who donated to gimp and the gnome foundation an apology. 6) when you ask someone who they are and they politely answer back, it is just plain good manners to respectfully do the same and politely explain who you are back. you had your chance, you decided not to. 7) then miguel suggested that gimp fork the gimp tool kit. either Ximian has a bad way with volunteers or with female volunteers in particular. no matter what, as far as i know from the what those people on this list told me -- stupid changes has been made to the gimp toolkit because luis mom is too stupid to use her computer. please fix this. and suggest again to me what to name the gimp fork of the gimp tool kit. after that, explain the reason Ximian is unwilling to put their own name on this software they help so much. miguel, question. do all the Ximian employees treat volunteers and volunteer funding the way i was treated? you are in charge of them? if not, who is? what you will find there is a person wondering why this company changes free software to suit a mother and not the needs of the community. a lot of people contributed to get me there. Ximian has been fairly disrespectful about this. perhaps you can address that. thanks for the time you suddenly have to deal with luis answer, and thank you for pointing out that i have gone through the right channels and now i am dealing with you. have you sent an apology to tim ney yet? or is your whole group still standing behind luis reason for the changes? carol ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
On Sun, Sep 05, 2004 at 12:52:44PM -0400, Miguel de Icaza wrote: Carol, My guess is that Luis was trying to be polite to you, but I already explained to you on the previous mail who was responsible for the changes to the selector, and where ultimately does the responsibility lie. it was a meeting of developers. i can only assume that this was an answer tailored for a developer situation. In this new e-mail of yours, you ignore the explanation, and instead decide to take up your issues again Luis (again). i went through those channels already. It is pointless to keep hammering on Luis, you have to take that problem to the Gimp maintainers. there is the issue of the cost of the flight to get me to luis to receive this answer. there is the point that i am a volunteer who has been being given a run around with some really terrible answers by a group of people called Ximian. I do not like you, because you are rude (see the archived mail) and you are paranoid (see the archived mail). if i were paranoid, i would not have helped you with the emails. i am not paranoid, i think i know completely what is going on here. there is an Ximian footprint on some questionable changes on software being developed for a free software community and a certain amount of respect should be shown to the volunteers. i am not paranoid. i know what i have done and why i did it and who i represent. Like I said before, if you dislike all contributions from Ximian/Novell, then fork the toolkit. The maintainers to Gtk+ do not seem to mind (or they would have rejected our contributions). okay, back to this. should i name my fork the ximian tool kit? i have been maintaining a gimp.org website. i traveled to a developers meeting to represent gimp. i have a gimp.org mail address. can you help me with what i should name my fork of the gimp tool kit? i asked nicely before for help with this. i ask nicely again. (btw, i am not in this to make friends with you. please avoid personal attacks when dealing with volunteers) 6) when you ask someone who they are and they politely answer back, it is just plain good manners to respectfully do the same and politely explain who you are back. you had your chance, you decided not to. You are the first person in years that asks for introductions to have a debate, I am not interested in Internet dating with you. you asked me who i was. i respectfully answered. i have been involved with gimp since 1998 yet still i found your question who are you to be fair and answered it. this politeness has been answered back with you accusing me of wanting dates? i am going to be 42 years old this year and i would be embarrassed to date you for ohsomany reasons. thanks anyway. do you think that all female volunteers just are there because they want to date you? besides, since i had to learn about you myself, i guess i see that probably you already date nat. either Ximian has a bad way with volunteers or with female volunteers in particular. no matter what, as far as i know from the what those people on this list told me -- stupid changes has been made to the gimp toolkit because luis mom is too stupid to use her computer. You are obnoxious, I have no problems with normal people. this is the reason that an ximian employee gave to me at a developers conference. no, i was not hitting on him. i was asking questions about developer decisions. so far, luis mom is the only solid reason i get for the changes and this bad reasoning still has yet to be addressed. after that, explain the reason Ximian is unwilling to put their own name on this software they help so much. We do not do that, because we consume the upstream version of Gtk+. If you have a problem with the way Gtk+ is maintained, take your problem to the Gtk+ maintainers. i did. i was sent to luis. luis told me it was all about his mom. now i talk to you. you accuse me of wanting to date you. miguel, question. do all the Ximian employees treat volunteers and volunteer funding the way i was treated? you are in charge of them? if not, who is? Only rude and obnoxious ones like you. frustrated volunteer. being frustrated by an answer like so the computer is simple for my mom leads to me being obnoxious. i really have the interests of the people who contributed to my flight and such to get me to the developer meeting in mind. forgive me, it is a big job -- representing volunteers and trying to keep a handle on what is being developed and the reasons for it. we still have only luis mom to blame for this new file selector and a list of people you provided that i already have tried to deal with. and now you. what about you do you think i want to be an internet date with, btw? what you will find there is a person wondering why this company changes free software to suit a mother and not the needs of the community. I already
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Hi Carol. Carol Spears ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: [...] i really am responsible to a whole bunch of people who contributed time and money to send me to a developer meeting in which i was told by luis, representing ximian, that the changes were made for his mom. for shame. I start to regret to have supported your attendance to Guadec. The fuzz you make about this obviously casual and illustrative remark by Luis is annoying and does not at all help with the necessary improvements to the file selector. In fact it even is counterproductive. Very much so. And you'd do yourself and your credibility a favor if you'd treat personal emails with respect and not publish them on mailinglists. Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
On Sun, Sep 05, 2004 at 07:43:29PM +0200, Simon Budig wrote: And you'd do yourself and your credibility a favor if you'd treat personal emails with respect and not publish them on mailinglists. Actually, they are public emails, but miguel is not subscribed to this list so they are trapped in the moderation queue by the mailman filter. Miguel, I recommend you resend your postings. -Yosh ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Carol Spears ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Sun, Sep 05, 2004 at 07:43:29PM +0200, Simon Budig wrote: Hi Carol. Carol Spears ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: [...] i really am responsible to a whole bunch of people who contributed time and money to send me to a developer meeting in which i was told by luis, representing ximian, that the changes were made for his mom. for shame. I start to regret to have supported your attendance to Guadec. you were the decision maker i take it? I was one of many people who wanted to meet you at Guadec. That doesn't mean that I made the decision to fund you but I think it helped. did anyone ever tell you that changes were made to a community project to suit someones mothers needs? if so, how did you handle it. an example of how to deal with such a thing needs to be given i guess instead of idle reprimands. Changes to a community project get made to suit quite a lot of people. This includes mothers. Personally I have made changes to the GIMP to suit some of my friends. So what? i have never asked for or needed your support simon. thank you if i received some ever. i still thank you for your contributions but your opinion of my frustration is unasked for and out of place. Want some proof that I did support you for a fairly long time? I could dig in my mail archive should you need some. I obviously do not think that my opinion is out of place - otherwise I wouldn't have written this mail. Your way to deal with your frustration at the expenses of a bunch of other people is - as I said - counterproductive for the GIMP and that directly makes me involved. simon, did gimp donations pay for your attendance? Yes, a part of my expenses got covered. The fuzz you make about this obviously casual and illustrative remark by Luis is annoying and does not at all help with the necessary improvements to the file selector. In fact it even is counterproductive. Very much so. i was not involved in a casual conversation. i asked a direct question and i am more than capable of understanding a technical answer. one was not provided. You have yet to explain what is so bad to design a file selector so that Luis' mother can use it. I think this is a great goal (although the GTK+ developers did overshot a bit, hampering the usability for computer-savvy people). And since GUI design and usability is not a pure technical topic the illustrative answer it was designed so that my mother can use is a perfectly valid answer. There very well might be no answer that suits your implied technical request. [...] i am trying to get my trip to this conference to mean something or be compensated for. and i dont really care much beyond that. So this is it? You feel awkward about having been funded to be able to attend to Guadec? You feel that you have to do something to justificate this? Guess what? You did this already although it *pre*dates the Guadec. do you respect donations made to promote the development of gimp? If respecting donations means pissing off the people we (as in 'the GIMP project') want to cooperate with in the future as well then no. Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Hi, Simon Budig wrote: Carol Spears ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Sun, Sep 05, 2004 at 07:43:29PM +0200, Simon Budig wrote: I start to regret to have supported your attendance to Guadec. you were the decision maker i take it? I was one of many people who wanted to meet you at Guadec. That doesn't mean that I made the decision to fund you but I think it helped. I guess since I was the one handing out the money, I was the decision maker on this. I did ask around, and while one or two people asked why? when I asked them whether Carol should go, there were several people who were positive on the idea, including Simon. did anyone ever tell you that changes were made to a community project to suit someones mothers needs? if so, how did you handle it. an example of how to deal with such a thing needs to be given i guess instead of idle reprimands. Getting something to the stage where my grandmother would use it is a proverbial way of describing making technology accessible to a larger public. I am sure this was the sense in which Luis was talking when he said he wanted something his mother could use. That is not the reason things are simplified, but it is a soundbite describing the general goal of opening things up to a larger public. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary, Lyon, France E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CV: http://dneary.free.fr/CV/ ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
On Sun, Sep 05, 2004 at 09:28:55PM +0200, Simon Budig wrote: You have yet to explain what is so bad to design a file selector so that Luis' mother can use it. I think this is a great goal (although the GTK+ developers did overshot a bit, hampering the usability for computer-savvy people). And since GUI design and usability is not a pure technical topic the illustrative answer it was designed so that my mother can use is a perfectly valid answer. There very well might be no answer that suits your implied technical request. http://carol.gimp.org/gimp/basics/gui/fileselector/index.html http://carol.gimp.org/gimp/basics/gui/fileselector/console.html carol ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Simon Budig wrote: Hi Carol. Carol Spears ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: [...] i really am responsible to a whole bunch of people who contributed time and money to send me to a developer meeting in which i was told by luis, representing ximian, that the changes were made for his mom. for shame. I start to regret to have supported your attendance to Guadec. The fuzz you make about this obviously casual and illustrative remark by Luis is annoying and does not at all help with the necessary improvements to the file selector. In fact it even is counterproductive. Very much so. I would counter that Luis' answer was neither casual nor illustrative. A question was asked and either a insulting inaccurate answer was provide, or worse, a poor change in the toolkit was made for entirely the wrong reason. And you'd do yourself and your credibility a favor if you'd treat personal emails with respect and not publish them on mailinglists. I would agree to some extent, although as a long time user of GIMP, I think this list deserves to know the reason for the change. I've not seen it pass the list as of yet. -- Until later, Geoffrey Registered Linux User #108567 ATT Certified UNIX System Programmer - 1995 ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Geoffrey ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Carol Spears wrote: On Sun, Sep 05, 2004 at 09:28:55PM +0200, Simon Budig wrote: You have yet to explain what is so bad to design a file selector so that Luis' mother can use it. I think this is a great goal (although the GTK+ developers did overshot a bit, hampering the usability for computer-savvy people). And since GUI design and usability is not a pure technical topic the illustrative answer it was designed so that my mother can use is a perfectly valid answer. There very well might be no answer that suits your implied technical request. http://carol.gimp.org/gimp/basics/gui/fileselector/index.html http://carol.gimp.org/gimp/basics/gui/fileselector/console.html After reviewing the change, I agree it is for the worse. I was quite pleased when I stumbled on the tab completion in the GIMP. I much prefer the older flavor which includes the tab completion as well as the drop down directory selection. Please note that I did not ask carol for the reasons why the new GTK+-Filechooser has deficiencies. I'd guess that we would come to the same conclusion very quick. I too see the need to improve the GtkFilechooser and I am not happy with the current state. If you read my question on top of the mail again you'll notice that I did not ask what is bad about the fileselector, I asked what would be bad with a fileselector that Luis Mother can use. I firmly believe that making the FileChooser accessible to people with few computing experience (lets say my grandmother, Luis Mother or whatever, pick your favourite person) is a good goal to have in mind. Implicitely you raise two questions: 1) What are the reasons for the way the (new) GtkFilechooser is designed? 2) Why did GIMP switch from GtkFileSelector (old) to GtkFilechooser (new) despite the deficiencies in the Filechooser? I cannot really comment on question 1, since this is in the responsibility of the GTK+-Team. There is (was? AFAIK it used to live on http://www.gnome.org/~seth/filechooser-spec/ ) a document online that discusses the reasoning behind the design. For question 2 the person to ask probably is Sven or Mitch. From what I understood the old Fileselector had quite a number of technical problems. It was hard to extend with the stuff Gimp needs. Things like the Thumbnail preview had to be embedded in a very hackish way, making it very sensitive against changes in future versions of GTK+. Plus it is foreseeable that the Fileselector will become deprecated at some point. The Gimp always has been an early adopter of new GTK+ features and since the FileChooser is a step in the right direction it was only logical to use it and it should be our goal to help the GTK+ developers to overcome the current problems in the FileChooser. However, this needs cooperation with the GTK+ developers. Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Hi! I have few ideas to improve the poor 2.1 fileselector. (yes, its me who came up already with one alternative) Which is the apropriate forum where can I write this ideas? Or its decided to not change? Best regards, Khiraly signature.asc Description: Ez az =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=FCzenetr=E9sz?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_digit=E1lis?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_al=E1=EDr=E1ssal?= van =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ell=E1tva?=
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
Hi, Carol Spears [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: now, to the new file selector. there is a huge difference between the file selector in gimp-2.0 and the file selector in gimp-2.1. the newer of the two is an invalid (sickly person) compared to its proud ancestors. i have tried to make a tutorial that shows what the old file selector can do and what the new one stuggles to do. the person who designed this is being paid by a company -- it would be nice to see some evidence that it is not an attempt to destroy free software. i cannot find this evidence, however. Your comparison is interesting but the gimp-user list is of course the wrong address for complaints about GtkFileChooser. We can't really change the way this widget works. Why don't you send this mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED] instead? Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
hello back, On Sun, Sep 05, 2004 at 01:48:06AM +0200, Sven Neumann wrote: Carol Spears [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: now, to the new file selector. there is a huge difference between the file selector in gimp-2.0 and the file selector in gimp-2.1. the newer of the two is an invalid (sickly person) compared to its proud ancestors. i have tried to make a tutorial that shows what the old file selector can do and what the new one stuggles to do. the person who designed this is being paid by a company -- it would be nice to see some evidence that it is not an attempt to destroy free software. i cannot find this evidence, however. Your comparison is interesting but the gimp-user list is of course the wrong address for complaints about GtkFileChooser. We can't really change the way this widget works. Why don't you send this mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED] instead? well, it is not a complaint on this list. it is supposed to be more for educational purposes. there are so many different operating systems using the gimp that some of the nice things are not known and also being design out of existenence. as far as complaining to the proper channels, been there done that. volunteers flew me thousands of miles. when i asked the Ximian employee about this decision, he made it sound like all of these new users (these gimp users, many on this list) were too stupid to understand how to work the old file selector and that this ability needed to be hidden from the simpletons. i consider the problem to be more of a lack of knowledge of the capacity and am trying to educate users who are not simpletons to use it. going through the right channels, i was told by [EMAIL PROTECTED] to fork the gimp tool kit. education is the only thing that will help me. i think that the gimp users are smart enough to be able to use such a complicated thing. carol ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
On Saturday 04 September 2004 08:18 pm, Carol Spears wrote: hello back, On Sun, Sep 05, 2004 at 01:48:06AM +0200, Sven Neumann wrote: Carol Spears [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: now, to the new file selector. there is a huge difference between the file selector in gimp-2.0 and the file selector in gimp-2.1. the newer of the two is an invalid (sickly person) compared to its proud ancestors. i have tried to make a tutorial that shows what the old file selector can do and what the new one stuggles to do. the person who designed this is being paid by a company -- it would be nice to see some evidence that it is not an attempt to destroy free software. i cannot find this evidence, however. Your comparison is interesting but the gimp-user list is of course the wrong address for complaints about GtkFileChooser. We can't really change the way this widget works. Why don't you send this mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED] instead? well, it is not a complaint on this list. it is supposed to be more for educational purposes. there are so many different operating systems using the gimp that some of the nice things are not known and also being design out of existenence. as far as complaining to the proper channels, been there done that. volunteers flew me thousands of miles. when i asked the Ximian employee about this decision, he made it sound like all of these new users (these gimp users, many on this list) were too stupid to understand how to work the old file selector and that this ability needed to be hidden from the simpletons. i consider the problem to be more of a lack of knowledge of the capacity and am trying to educate users who are not simpletons to use it. going through the right channels, i was told by [EMAIL PROTECTED] to fork the gimp tool kit. education is the only thing that will help me. i think that the gimp users are smart enough to be able to use such a complicated thing. carol ___ Carol, As much as I agree with you on the new file selectors and disappointment that the Gimp developers can't change them, I'm afraid this is the state of Gnome/GTK+ presently. If you haven't seen Gnome lately, 2.4 or 2.6 versions, then you will be even more disappointed. It seems that those developers have decided taking away user control over the interface will make it an easier transition for user's of other OS's to move to Linux. You have to realize now, it's worked for Apple Windows so far. Hide everything, lock it into a consistent look feel and remove as many user controls as possible to eliminate confusion on their part! Fortunately for us, the Linux users, we have other choices to go too that are still Linux oriented, full control, but this is not an option for Gimp, built so heavily within GTK+. Maybe something will change, maybe they'll realize the error of their ways, but presently, they have decided to go this route. We'll see if pays off and if it does, Linux gets more users and if not, the Linux users get an ugly GUI interface that can't be changed much. Patrick -- --- KMail v1.7 --- SuSE Linux Pro v9.1 --- Registered Linux User #225206 Those Who Dance Are Considered Insane, by Those That Cannot Hear the Music! ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
nice to hear from you Patrick, On Sat, Sep 04, 2004 at 09:39:52PM -0400, BandiPat wrote: As much as I agree with you on the new file selectors and disappointment that the Gimp developers can't change them, I'm afraid this is the state of Gnome/GTK+ presently. If you haven't seen Gnome lately, 2.4 or 2.6 versions, then you will be even more disappointed. It seems that those developers have decided taking away user control over the interface will make it an easier transition for user's of other OS's to move to Linux. You have to realize now, it's worked for Apple Windows so far. Hide everything, lock it into a consistent look feel and remove as many user controls as possible to eliminate confusion on their part! i started to use gimp-1.0.2 on a 486 with a 33meg harddrive and it kept up more than fine with photoshop5 on windows on a 455MHz machine. i did not understand this miracle until i installed gimp-1.2 and gimp-1.3 on the same computer (the 455MHz) which had to be upgraded to run photoshop7 and WindowsME and later. these are still all just numbers to me Fortunately for us, the Linux users, we have other choices to go too that are still Linux oriented, full control, but this is not an option for Gimp, built so heavily within GTK+. Maybe something will change, maybe they'll realize the error of their ways, but presently, they have decided to go this route. We'll see if pays off and if it does, Linux gets more users and if not, the Linux users get an ugly GUI interface that can't be changed much. well, it might be time that gnome claim their own? call it the gnome tool kit. it is smelling like a free ride on gimp success right now. having miguel join #gimp and call me retarded doesnt do much to make me think that the rest of his users have any sense or ability. http://carol.gimp.org/gallery/journal/gimp-2004-09-04.txt (use Find In Page and search for miguel to see the respect given back) i sent him an email introducing myself to him a few weeks back and never received a similar response back. not being a gnome user, i only know him from an email i read about gay gnome parties and another web page in which him and someone named nat did a photo cheer thing for evolution showing some profit. actually, in retrospect, i would guess that being called retarded by someone who cannot send back a similar introduction with such a limited internet personality is probably not so bad. if anyone would like to see this introduction, i will be happy to forward a copy of it to you -- maybe i should put it on cgo i have never gotten anywhere with human beings treating them like they are to stupid to handle cool tools. i guess they have or are banking on this. or on the fact that things on #gimp are public via my journal now. http://carol.gimp.org/about/introduction-to-miguel.txt i see that i failed to mention that i wrote a program for a hypothetical turing machin in 1986 or 87 that squared x. i am retarded ;) Those Who Dance Are Considered Insane, by Those That Cannot Hear the Music! you hear it, dont you :) thank you for being not the stupid gimp user they think they make software for ... carol ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp2 file selectors
hello miguel,
On Sun, Sep 05, 2004 at 12:32:37AM -0400, Miguel de Icaza wrote:
Hello,
Carol has decided that there is a conspiracy from someone against
the Gimp or the toolkit or Unix, or something else. It is not clear
from her paranoid e-mails. I have decided not to follow up to any of
this paranoid flood of emails to save time.
not really a flood. just me trying to get an answer. my experience
with people in general and on this list in particular is that a little
demonstration of a cool function is easily grasped and even incorporated
into their work flow. perhaps gnome users are not so clever, i dunno.
we are speaking of the gimp tool kit, just to help you remember where
you got your tools from.
Not to mention that am not directly involved with Gtk+ development
or Gnome development for the last three years, so am not sure whats the
point of communicating to me her problems with the Gimp file selector.
well, where is luis? luis told me that the file selector was changed to
keep his mothers computer simple enough for her. i have a feeling that
luis mom could have easily used the old file selector complete with the
tab completion that linux apps have always always been proud of.
if you could let me speak with luis. apologize to tim ney and reimburse
the gnome foundation for a flight that your people did not take
seriously, none of this stuff would be happening right now. i suggested
this all weeks ago. you never answered me back.
and be careful with the accusations. i am an average computer user who
is highly interested in what happens with its development and eager to
contribute.
If you have issues with Gtk+, the Gimp or Gnome talk to the
maintainers and argue with them. I am not any of them, and I am not
interested in debunking whatever theory you have.
the gnome foundation has started to handle donations made by people
interested in gimp. some of this money paid for me to go to gimpcon
that was held in conjunction with guadec. i spent my time there as
carefully as possible, due to the funding situation. you can understand
this, i hope. it is a volunteer situation here.
this list is comprised of many different sorts of computer users, using
gimp on many different operating systems. one thing i thought was the
goal of the volunteer software movement was to educate people about this
tool they acquire and try to use. the people here are all interested in
the gimp and whether they understand it or not, the gimp tool kit.
okay, who is paranoid in this exchange?
18:33 -!- miguel [EMAIL PROTECTED] has joined
#gimp
18:33 miguel Hey guys
18:33 miguel Who maintains the Gimp these days?
18:34 @nomis miguel: hi
18:34 @nomis miguel: Sven, Mitch and Yosh
18:34 miguel I have this retarded user called carol sending some
pretty annoying and stupid emails to me my way
18:34 miguel What are their email addresses?
18:35 @carol [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18:35 @nomis miguel: {sven|mitch|[EMAIL PROTECTED]
18:35 @carol miguel: i thought you asked for an introduction. i waited
weeks.
18:35 @carol weeks for a reply back
18:35 @carol honored by your visit today though ;)
18:36 @carol miguel: did you try to google for those emails btw?
18:37 @carol these are all volunteers here ...
18:37 @carol (i googled for yours)
18:38 miguel thanks nomis
18:38 -!- miguel [EMAIL PROTECTED] has left
#gimp []
apparently, waiting for an introduction back fits your definition of
paranoid.
i asked luis from Ximian the reason for the very very stupid (my
opinion) changes to the file selector. the answer he gave me made the
gimp developers laugh and not work with me.
for the people who funded my trip to norway, i simply asked that you
send an apology to tim ney for this bad answer and offer to reimburse
gnome foundation/gimp for the flight. i think i was more careful than
ximian with the money and time of volunteers.
the people who use gimp are very smart. if they do not know about a
really cool function, they are very easily educated.
you suggested also that i fork the gimp tool kit. okay. lets dissect
all that is wrong with this. i suspect that you are as smart as the
gimp users to see how terribly silly this suggestion is and that perhaps
you are drinking or doing some sort of drugs .
miguel, since you dont bother to introduce yourself back, is this you?
http://www.nat.org/evolution.php3
the gimp developers are actually building software that is being used on
several different operating systems successfully. this application is
doing real work.
perhaps you can start over and explain to me what the name of my fork
should be again. assume the readers of these mails are of at least an
average intelligence. assume that they dont care about ximians
financial success and prefer that their gimp work as well as it ever
did.
assume that luis gave me a really crappy answer and that the people that
sent me to the convention have expected
