Re: [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Trevor Rose via gimp-web-list]

Hi,

I’m nobody in particular, I don’t even use GIMP, but for some reason I’m
tuned in to this conversation and haven’t bothered unsubscribing ... BUT
might I offer a suggestion:

1 — it seems to me the most relevant points are as follows:
— it is vital to be able to critique the product in order to argue a case
for improvement
— emotional disagreements in such critique should be reduced as much as
possible or removed entirely
— the public image of your product should not suffer as a consequence of
such communication
— no valid suggestion arising from such critique should be missed, as this
constitutes missed opportunity

2 — the reason why this seems to be occurring ( from my outsider
perspective ), is because you’re using far too open systems for everything
... ie: it’s one thing to be open source with your code, it’s another
entirely to be open with your communications, as this allows anyone to say
anything for any reason and in any form they want, all of which creates
infinite possibility for error ... and here I am, a total stranger, with no
particular interest or involvement as a developer nor user, demonstrating
that fact ( though hopefully doing so in a way that might solve your
problem )

3 — the solution to the problem is to tighten up your communications
channels, and to use some other technology rather than just an email group,
and in which alternative system a person must be logged in, and each post,
thread and comment/reply is not only better organised, but can be
identified as per user ID, GROUP, and ROLE ... PLUS AND MOST IMPORTANTLY
you can constrain each unit of communication by using mandatory fields and
filters, in order to force clearer communication and remove some amount of
abuse, while also being able to ban anyone who takes their passion beyond
an accepted threshold/limit.

Whomever it was that wrote something like “this reflects badly on GIMP and
GIMP developers” is correct, as an outsider I can assure you it does,
because even if they’re not guilty of any one or another accusation, the
fact remains that I ( as an outsider ) shouldn’t be seeing any of this
happening in the first place, and the very best case scenario I can
attribute to it, is that no one involved in the development has been
bothered to fix what should arguably be a reasonably easy issue to fix.

There are so many better communication platforms out there than a group
email, I cannot understand why you’d be using it for a software development
project in which so many people can just write whatever they please.

Currently I’m writing a series of books, I’m using some software for that,
and the developers have a nicely organised forum for it ... they’ve been
around nowhere near as long as GIMP, their budget is SFA, and yet it’s rare
to see anything get even remotely impolite on their site ... now maybe
that’s because writers are nicer people? Maybe it’s because we are used to
writing and therefore more precise with our language, but whatever the
reason, I cannot imagine preferring them to use this kind of group email
over the system they do use ... and even that forum software isn’t very
advanced versus other open source options.

Your software should be open source, but your conversations should not be
open slather.



On Thu, 15 Nov 2018 at 23:22, Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-web-list <
gimp-web-list@gnome.org> wrote:

> Hi Niccolo,
>
> There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a have a
> conversation with people who come with preconceptions about something they
> are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn before
> drawing conclusions.
>
> When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to releases we
> tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I should have kept
> my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos verbal abuse
> containing expletives.
>
> I am truly and genuinely sorry about that.
>
> Alexandre
>
> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi :
>
> > Hello.
> >
> > TLDR:
> > Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that he's a
> > developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and doing things
> that
> > are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?) role, which makes
> > the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.
> >
> > FULL:
> >
> > A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry): I've had
> a
> > couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest exchange is
> >
> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq
> > from the Reddit thread at
> > https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/.
> While
> > it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty. What triggered
> > Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than random
> > ones, because people like IT administrators might have to upgrade
> hundreds
> > of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he
> > understood I claimed 

Re: [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-web-list]

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:48 PM Niccolo Brogi  wrote:

> Regarding CCing people, my thread hasn't been approved, so I don't know if
> people can read it.
>
> Regarding the rest, you don't have to present exhibits, we're not in
> court. I'm giving you feedback about your behavior as someone who
> represents the whole team (unless I got your pronuons wrong, you keep
> saying "we"--possibly to give authority to your arguments--and you
> misrepresent yourself as a developer of GIMP).
>

I have never claimed to be developer of GIMP, publicly or privately -- you
have zero proof of your claim. I actually correct people when they call me
a developer, and I have enough verifiable proof of that.

If you think that continuos piling of factually wrong statements will help
your cause, I suggest you rethink your stategy.


> Take this feedback however you want. So can the rest of the team, but
> considering you've been speaking on their behalf it's important that they
> know what you're doing and that people aren't happy. If your behavior is
> appropriate for someone who represents the team, good to know. If it's not,
> don't speak on behalf of everyone else and at that point you can be as much
> of an asshole as you want with both newbies and people who disagree with
> you.
>

I will have to point out that name-calling, which you once again went for,
is not welcome on our mailing lists as per code of conduct:

https://www.gimp.org/mail_lists.html

"Please make sure that you add value to the discussion, avoid repetitive
arguments, flamewars, trolling, and personal attacks."

Please consider rethinking your interaction here.

Good day to you.

Alex


>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 14:28 Alexandre Prokoudine <
> alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi  wrote:
>>
>>> OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with
>>> misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone who
>>> doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to people.
>>>
>>> It's also not just me,  many people have the same problem with you. I
>>> guess it's you against the world.
>>>
>>> Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and --in
>>> case they have the courage to approve my message or at least reply--if they
>>> approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure your behavior
>>> is OK?).
>>>
>>
>> I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the mailing lists
>> you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people get
>> emails sent to those list.
>>
>>
>>> I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me don't as
>>> much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears),
>>>
>>
>> Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only two other
>> problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I can pinpoint
>> the relevant threads.
>>
>> Exhibit A:
>>
>> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy
>> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to
>> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same
>> ground with him just a few days earlier.
>>
>> This is this very thread:
>>
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9ex8sl/
>>
>> There was a quite justified complaint that text layers are hard to use in
>> GIMP, which I readily agreed with. Nevertheless, this user came to say that
>> lack of maturity of that feature is present because of GIMP team's "mindset
>> of "you don't need it" and "we don't like it"". The harshest thing I said
>> in response was point out evidence of the contrary, then saying "Facts...
>> Always such an inconvenient thing, isn't it? :)".
>>
>> I'd love to see here the cause of alleged tears or coming hard off the
>> ropes.
>>
>> And Exhibit B:
>>
>> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another thread
>> entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
>> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something.
>> Even if you win, you lose...
>>
>> This is this very thread:
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/
>>
>> Essentially, someone got steamed up because of having to spend shocking 3
>> minutes on "wading through a sea of jargon, buzzwords, mansplaining, and
>> patting yourselves on the back" which is how this person characterized the
>> official 2.10.8 announcement.
>>
>> "mention me by name in another thread entirely" is actually about the
>> very same thread --
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/e9oe05x/
>> -- about the very same topic: providing a shorter list of changes between
>> versions.
>>
>> And here is the "basically calling me a whiny baby" quote:
>>
>> "I don't see any way in Gitlab to view all files at the time of tagging a
>> 

Re: [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-web-list]

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi  wrote:

> OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with
> misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone who
> doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to people.
>
> It's also not just me,  many people have the same problem with you. I
> guess it's you against the world.
>
> Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and --in case
> they have the courage to approve my message or at least reply--if they
> approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure your behavior
> is OK?).
>

I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the mailing lists
you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people get
emails sent to those list.


> I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me don't as
> much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears),
>

Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only two other
problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I can pinpoint
the relevant threads.

Exhibit A:

>>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy came
off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to tell
you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same ground
with him just a few days earlier.

This is this very thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9ex8sl/

There was a quite justified complaint that text layers are hard to use in
GIMP, which I readily agreed with. Nevertheless, this user came to say that
lack of maturity of that feature is present because of GIMP team's "mindset
of "you don't need it" and "we don't like it"". The harshest thing I said
in response was point out evidence of the contrary, then saying "Facts...
Always such an inconvenient thing, isn't it? :)".

I'd love to see here the cause of alleged tears or coming hard off the
ropes.

And Exhibit B:

>>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another thread
entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something.
Even if you win, you lose...

This is this very thread:
https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/

Essentially, someone got steamed up because of having to spend shocking 3
minutes on "wading through a sea of jargon, buzzwords, mansplaining, and
patting yourselves on the back" which is how this person characterized the
official 2.10.8 announcement.

"mention me by name in another thread entirely" is actually about the very
same thread --
https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/e9oe05x/
-- about the very same topic: providing a shorter list of changes between
versions.

And here is the "basically calling me a whiny baby" quote:

"I don't see any way in Gitlab to view all files at the time of tagging a
release, but I'm not sure if having to scroll through changes for the next
version first [in an updated NEWS file] would give anyone a heart attack,
save for our friend /u/Unchayned  here."

There are facts, and then there are interpretations. I don't think our
interpretations will ever match, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Alex


> and I don't care what you say and do if you take responsibility for your
> actions-- which you have to do since you not only speak for yourself only,
> but for other people as well.
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 13:22 Alexandre Prokoudine <
> alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Niccolo,
>>
>> There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a have a
>> conversation with people who come with preconceptions about something they
>> are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn before
>> drawing conclusions.
>>
>> When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to releases we
>> tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I should have kept
>> my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos verbal abuse
>> containing expletives.
>>
>> I am truly and genuinely sorry about that.
>>
>> Alexandre
>>
>> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi :
>>
>>> Hello.
>>>
>>> TLDR:
>>> Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that he's a
>>> developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and doing things that
>>> are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?) role, which makes
>>> the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.
>>>
>>> FULL:
>>>
>>> A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry): I've had
>>> a couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest exchange is
>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq
>>> from the Reddit thread at
>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/.