Re: What Language for a kid

[Ric Werme]

Alan Johnson wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 10:40 AM, Bill Freeman  wrote:
>> I can't resist.  There is always lisp.  No indentation.  No semicolons.  
>> Format it so that it makes sense to you.  Anyone approaching algebra will 
>> get the bonus of learning that parentheses must match. 

> ​I will second the beauty of the simplicity of Lisp.  Unfortunately, I don't 
> know of much in the way of practical application of Lisp outside AI 
> researchers... back in my college days at least.  No ideal what AI folks use 
> most commonly now.​

I think Bill was just kidding  It takes a weird enough brain to think like
a computer, it takes an even weirder brain to think in Lisp.  OTOH, I've
never tried too hard.  It would be nice to write some real Elisp from time
to time.

PostScript is a Lisp variant.  It has some nice visual output.

Oh dear, I can't find my best (only?) PostScript program.  A .pdf variant is
at http://www.gpsy.com/gpsinfo/utmgrid.pdf but they didn't save the .ps
version.  (pdf2ps doesn't do what I hoped)

I see the PostScript slide rule program is still around, see
http://www.sciencephotography.com/andy/postscript.htm

 -Ric

___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

Re: What Language for a kid

[Alan Johnson]

On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 1:33 PM, Ric Werme  wrote:

> PostScript is a Lisp variant.  It has some nice visual output.
>

​There you have it, Kenny.  Teach your daughter PostScript.

-- 
Alan Johnson
a...@datdec.com
Date Format PSA 
___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

Re: What Language for a kid

[Bill Freeman]

For those who may have missed it: http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html


On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 1:44 PM, David Rysdam  wrote:

> Ric Werme  writes:
> > PostScript is a Lisp variant.
>
> I don't think I would say that. It's a stack-based thing that's like
> Forth or an RPN calculator. Lisp is nothing like that.
>
> ___
> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
>
___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

Re: What Language for a kid

[Dan Jenkins]

On 12/29/2015 2:24 PM, Ted Roche wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 2:03 PM, Alan Johnson  > wrote: > >> 
> Unfortunately, I don't know of much in the way of 
practical >> application of Lisp outside AI researchers...

If the song is true, then creating the universe.

Yes, God had a deadline.
So he wrote it all in Lisp.

http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/eternal-flame.en.html

___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

Re: What Language for a kid

[David Rysdam]

Ric Werme  writes:
> PostScript is a Lisp variant.

I don't think I would say that. It's a stack-based thing that's like
Forth or an RPN calculator. Lisp is nothing like that.

___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

Re: What Language for a kid

[Bill Freeman]

On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 10:05 AM, Matt Minuti  wrote:

>
> Agreed on Python, but trying to grok the difference between whitespace
> characters (let alone nonprinting characters) when you don't really
> understand characters is a little frustrating. In my experience teaching
> 5th graders through high schoolers, getting semicolons seems to take 2-5
> minutes, then it's solid. Getting whitespace characters takes anywhere from
> 5-10 minutes, to weeks. Minimizing time in the weeds is useful for
> everyone, but especially beginners.  ...
>

I can't resist.  There is always lisp.  No indentation.  No semicolons.
Format it so that it makes sense to you.  Anyone approaching algebra will
get the bonus of learning that parentheses must match.
___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

Re: What Language for a kid

[Alan Johnson]

On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 10:40 AM, Bill Freeman  wrote:

> I can't resist.  There is always lisp.  No indentation.  No semicolons.
> Format it so that it makes sense to you.  Anyone approaching algebra will
> get the bonus of learning that parentheses must match.
>

​I will second the beauty of the simplicity of Lisp.  Unfortunately, I
don't know of much in the way of practical application of Lisp outside AI
researchers... back in my college days at least.  No ideal what AI folks
use most commonly now.​
___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

Re: What Language for a kid

[Chris Linstid]

AI and Emacs plugins... and there may be some overlap there.

 - Chris

On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 11:03 AM, Alan Johnson  wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 10:40 AM, Bill Freeman  wrote:
>
>> I can't resist.  There is always lisp.  No indentation.  No semicolons.
>> Format it so that it makes sense to you.  Anyone approaching algebra will
>> get the bonus of learning that parentheses must match.
>>
>
> ​I will second the beauty of the simplicity of Lisp.  Unfortunately, I
> don't know of much in the way of practical application of Lisp outside AI
> researchers... back in my college days at least.  No ideal what AI folks
> use most commonly now.​
>
>
> ___
> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
>
>
___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

Re: What Language for a kid

[Dan Jenkins]

On 12/29/2015 2:03 PM, Alan Johnson wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 10:40 AM, Bill Freeman  wrote:
>
>> I can't resist.  There is always lisp.  No indentation.  No semicolons.
>> Format it so that it makes sense to you.  Anyone approaching algebra will
>> get the bonus of learning that parentheses must match.
>>
> ​I will second the beauty of the simplicity of Lisp.  Unfortunately, I
> don't know of much in the way of practical application of Lisp outside AI
> researchers... back in my college days at least.  No ideal what AI folks
> use most commonly now.​

I used to write Lisp for AutoCAD purposes years ago.

___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

Re: What Language for a kid

[Ted Roche]

On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 2:03 PM, Alan Johnson  wrote:

>  Unfortunately, I don't
> know of much in the way of practical application of Lisp outside AI
> researchers...

Well, there was Yahoo Stores, nee Viaweb:

http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Graham_(computer_programmer)



-- 
Ted Roche
Ted Roche & Associates, LLC
http://www.tedroche.com
___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

Re: What Language for a kid

[Alan Johnson]

On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 3:19 PM, Chris Linstid  wrote:

> AI and Emacs plugins... and there may be some overlap there.
>

​ctrl-meta-meta-ctrl-spacebar-up-left-down-right then you just think about
the plugin you want and the emacs plugin writer plugin writes the plugin
you want for you.
___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

Re: What Language for a kid

[Matt Minuti]

I second everything Bill said :)

Not that you can't start there.  I only have graphical programming with
> LavView, but I suspect that the skills don't translate as easily as you
> hope.
> [If you're a EE or maybe chemist or physicist with no programming skills -
> if you can find such anymore - LabView can be a good alternative.]


In my BSEE, we used MATLAB all the time - probably half my classes were
MATLAB-heavy. And having worked in a university physics research group for
a few years, I got the distinct impression that physicists are almost more
solidly CS than many CS grads. I hear chemists use R a lot, but that's
probably third-hand rumours :)
But LabView is an animal all its own. It's unlike any other graphical
programming language (except probably Mathworks Simulink), and as much as I
love to pick on it, it can be pretty useful for doing things from a
non-sequential, data-flow-centric angle. I once heard an engineering
manager for a medical device firm describe it as "Great for mechanical
engineers to proof-of-concept something software, but awful because now you
have to explain to the customer that while he made the demo in 4 hours,
it'll take your team 3 weeks to make something the FDA won't laugh at, and
another month to make sure it doesn't kill the first person it's hooked up
to."

But LabView shouldn't be an option anyways - there's no Linux version :-D



On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 10:39 PM, Paul Beaudet  wrote:

>
> It took me way less than 30 hours to figure out what a semicolon was
> for... Now, maybe it took me a lot longer to stop forgetting them (or
> putting them in the wrong places...), but before that time I was already
> hooked and it was just another part of solving the problem :)
>
> Gee wiz, with python you just have to figure out how 4 spaces are superior
> to tabs and you're all set, no semicolons needed.
>

Possible useful tip to share:

I've had enormous luck explaining semicolons in code by analogizing them to
periods in English. "It's just a way to show the end of a complete
statement. Why not periods? Well, just think about how often you write
numbers with decimal points, and how often you write semicolons. It just
makes it really, really easy for the computer to not get confused about the
end of your sentence."

Agreed on Python, but trying to grok the difference between whitespace
characters (let alone nonprinting characters) when you don't really
understand characters is a little frustrating. In my experience teaching
5th graders through high schoolers, getting semicolons seems to take 2-5
minutes, then it's solid. Getting whitespace characters takes anywhere from
5-10 minutes, to weeks. Minimizing time in the weeds is useful for
everyone, but especially beginners. I think that's part of the reason that
Arduino is so popular - open-source embedded build environments can be a
pain to set up (or at least a timesink).
___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

Re: What Language for a kid

[Ben Scott]

On Dec 24, 2015 12:47, "Paul Beaudet"  wrote:
> Pointing to the training wheel equivalent here alarms me we may be
overlooking the key objective, which is inspiration for a young person.

Conversely, if you give a ten-speed racing bike to someone who has not yet
learned to crawl, that will be pretty discouraging.  I remember seeing such
a bike as a very young kid, and not having a clue what all those levers
did.  Having to learn all that while also learning to get my legs to drive
the pedals while also learning how to balance would have been much more
difficult for me.  I'm glad I started with my single-speed coaster-braked
bike.

> Codeacademy and Khan start and such a basic level it's hard to see the
forest through the trees.  Here me right, I think they are great tools, I
just personally found them frustrating because of the great amount of time
taken mucking through the weeds or things that were already understood.

Things like proper syntax, rules of scoping, function definitions, and so
on can be weeds for some.

The advantage of things like LOGO, Scratch, and the like, is they get
people thinking about decomposing a problem into algorithms, variables,
debugging, and so on, without having to know what any of those things are.
The visual metaphors tap into basic skills we learn playing with blocks as
toddlers.  For some people, that can be a huge enabler.

There's no one solution that's right for everyone.

-- Ben
___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

Re: What Language for a kid

[Bill Freeman]

I think that you should consult the child as to whether she:
  1. Wants to make the computer do stuff beyond playing games and typing
term papers;
  2. Is thinking along the lines of joining a FIRST team and contributing
to the software;
  3. Wants to build her own robot or similar;
  4. Wants to better understand what Dad does;
  5. Wants a leg up for school, eventually college, computer courses/labs,
ability to write tools to do calculations on data from a schools assigned
experiment;
  6. Some combination.
You don't have to get very far down that list before a graphical drag and
drop environment is going to start to feel confining.
Not that you can't start there.  I only have graphical programming with
LavView, but I suspect that the skills don't translate as easily as you
hope.
[If you're a EE or maybe chemist or physicist with no programming skills -
if you can find such anymore - LabView can be a good alternative.]

There is no reason, however, not to do both a graphical language and a more
traditional text based language, choosing, at the moment, whichever is
appropriate for her current pet project.

On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 8:34 AM, Ben Scott  wrote:

> On Dec 24, 2015 12:47, "Paul Beaudet"  wrote:
> > Pointing to the training wheel equivalent here alarms me we may be
> overlooking the key objective, which is inspiration for a young person.
>
> Conversely, if you give a ten-speed racing bike to someone who has not yet
> learned to crawl, that will be pretty discouraging.  I remember seeing such
> a bike as a very young kid, and not having a clue what all those levers
> did.  Having to learn all that while also learning to get my legs to drive
> the pedals while also learning how to balance would have been much more
> difficult for me.  I'm glad I started with my single-speed coaster-braked
> bike.
>
> > Codeacademy and Khan start and such a basic level it's hard to see the
> forest through the trees.  Here me right, I think they are great tools, I
> just personally found them frustrating because of the great amount of time
> taken mucking through the weeds or things that were already understood.
>
> Things like proper syntax, rules of scoping, function definitions, and so
> on can be weeds for some.
>
> The advantage of things like LOGO, Scratch, and the like, is they get
> people thinking about decomposing a problem into algorithms, variables,
> debugging, and so on, without having to know what any of those things are.
> The visual metaphors tap into basic skills we learn playing with blocks as
> toddlers.  For some people, that can be a huge enabler.
>
> There's no one solution that's right for everyone.
>
> -- Ben
>
> ___
> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
>
>
___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

Re: What Language for a kid

[Paul Beaudet]

Conversely conversely, I never learned to use a ten speed bike because I
never had one.

|Things like proper syntax, rules of scoping, function definitions, and so
on can be weeds for some.

 Completely agree with that, because I felt as though all of
the aforementioned things were in the weeds. When starting I got super hung
up on them particularly syntax. However, for someone who is driven to
accomplish a goal, the cost of hardship or failure is learning. Does it
scare most people away? Yes it does, no argument there. That was my point
of highlighting the need for a goal. Rarely do kids want to learn something
just because someone told them it was interesting, more interesting to play
video games or something.

When I said khan and the like was too in the weeds what I meant is the
following. Say your goal is to get into calculus even though you have only
got to geometry in formal education. You are going to have to go through
30-80 hours of basic math before it stops complaining that you want to take
what you know and just jump into calc. (if it ever figures it out what's
going on at all) It's yet another sore area in terms of a spot to
lose interest. Same thing occurs on codecademy, this is just
the inherent flaw of that type of system. How could the server know where
you are at in your learning journey? It can't, unless it has been there the
whole way. Even if it could, the server would have to take the time to
figure it out regardless. Maybe stated in a more profound way, "how can
something know what you don't know you don't know". If you have a kid or
someone you are mentoring, it's likely you know where they are at. Even
better, given you are the one with the knowledge than it is you that is the
better resource than codecademy or khan. No curriculum necessary just
a worthwhile project and the interest to pursue it.

It took me way less than 30 hours to figure out what a semicolon was for...
Now, maybe it took me a lot longer to stop forgetting them (or putting them
in the wrong places...), but before that time I was already hooked and it
was just another part of solving the problem :)

Gee wiz, with python you just have to figure out how 4 spaces are superior
to tabs and you're all set, no semicolons needed.


On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 11:01 AM, Bill Freeman  wrote:

> I think that you should consult the child as to whether she:
>   1. Wants to make the computer do stuff beyond playing games and typing
> term papers;
>   2. Is thinking along the lines of joining a FIRST team and contributing
> to the software;
>   3. Wants to build her own robot or similar;
>   4. Wants to better understand what Dad does;
>   5. Wants a leg up for school, eventually college, computer courses/labs,
> ability to write tools to do calculations on data from a schools assigned
> experiment;
>   6. Some combination.
> You don't have to get very far down that list before a graphical drag and
> drop environment is going to start to feel confining.
> Not that you can't start there.  I only have graphical programming with
> LavView, but I suspect that the skills don't translate as easily as you
> hope.
> [If you're a EE or maybe chemist or physicist with no programming skills -
> if you can find such anymore - LabView can be a good alternative.]
>
> There is no reason, however, not to do both a graphical language and a
> more traditional text based language, choosing, at the moment, whichever is
> appropriate for her current pet project.
>
> On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 8:34 AM, Ben Scott  wrote:
>
>> On Dec 24, 2015 12:47, "Paul Beaudet"  wrote:
>> > Pointing to the training wheel equivalent here alarms me we may be
>> overlooking the key objective, which is inspiration for a young person.
>>
>> Conversely, if you give a ten-speed racing bike to someone who has not
>> yet learned to crawl, that will be pretty discouraging.  I remember seeing
>> such a bike as a very young kid, and not having a clue what all those
>> levers did.  Having to learn all that while also learning to get my legs to
>> drive the pedals while also learning how to balance would have been much
>> more difficult for me.  I'm glad I started with my single-speed
>> coaster-braked bike.
>>
>> > Codeacademy and Khan start and such a basic level it's hard to see the
>> forest through the trees.  Here me right, I think they are great tools, I
>> just personally found them frustrating because of the great amount of time
>> taken mucking through the weeds or things that were already understood.
>>
>> Things like proper syntax, rules of scoping, function definitions, and so
>> on can be weeds for some.
>>
>> The advantage of things like LOGO, Scratch, and the like, is they get
>> people thinking about decomposing a problem into algorithms, variables,
>> debugging, and so on, without having to know what any of those things are.
>> The visual metaphors tap into basic skills we learn playing with blocks as
>> 

Re: What Language for a kid

[Matt Minuti]

Small correction, App Inventor doesn't share code with Scratch, it uses
Blockly (a Google project) as it's basis. A search for "blockly games"
should bring up some fun demos and stuff; I'm a fan of the rubber duck one.
:)
On Dec 24, 2015 2:18 PM, "Brian St. Pierre"  wrote:

> I just recently discovered MIT App Inventor --
> http://appinventor.mit.edu/explore/front.html
>
> It's Scratch embedded into a web-based environment that updates an app
> running on your Android device in real-time. I've only played with it for
> about 10 minutes, but it "just worked" to get a quick "hello"
> text-to-speech app running on my device.
>
> --
> Brian St. Pierre
>
> On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 11:24 AM, Kenny Lussier 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> My daughter has expressed an interest in learning to code. It's a
>> non-specific, very general interest. She doesn't have a specific area of
>> interest that she wants to learn (UI, game development, HPC, etc.), she
>> just want to learn how to code.
>>
>> What do people think is the best language for a 12yr old to learn? What
>> is most flexible to use for different purposes? What tools are out there to
>> teach a kid to code? Code Academy and the like seem to be a little dry and
>> never yielded wonderful results for most of the adults I know, so other
>> ideas would be welcome.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Kenny
>>
>>
>> ___
>> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
>> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
>> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
>>
>>
>
> ___
> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
>
>
___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

Re: What Language for a kid

[Brian St. Pierre]

I just recently discovered MIT App Inventor --
http://appinventor.mit.edu/explore/front.html

It's Scratch embedded into a web-based environment that updates an app
running on your Android device in real-time. I've only played with it for
about 10 minutes, but it "just worked" to get a quick "hello"
text-to-speech app running on my device.

--
Brian St. Pierre

On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 11:24 AM, Kenny Lussier  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> My daughter has expressed an interest in learning to code. It's a
> non-specific, very general interest. She doesn't have a specific area of
> interest that she wants to learn (UI, game development, HPC, etc.), she
> just want to learn how to code.
>
> What do people think is the best language for a 12yr old to learn? What is
> most flexible to use for different purposes? What tools are out there to
> teach a kid to code? Code Academy and the like seem to be a little dry and
> never yielded wonderful results for most of the adults I know, so other
> ideas would be welcome.
>
> Thanks,
> Kenny
>
>
> ___
> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
>
>
___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

Re: What Language for a kid

[Paul Beaudet]

I've never used labview or the newest version off mindstorm, so honestly
these programs could be completely relevant I could be completely out of
touch.

The big point is, making programing accessible is great if it can be used
practically and the programer identifies him or herself as having become a
programer. The later of which is important in this instance. Not the
programing bit, the self identifying bit, the confidence and feeling of
empowerment in creation and solving issues. Those are the core reasons I
would like to see programing taught more as opposed to programing for jobs
sake. Think about training wheels on a bike, watch this kid figure out how
to ride without them - > https://youtu.be/eaIvk1cSyG8. It hardly matters if
this little guy is going to become a pro cyclist or not. What matters is he
has discovered that he is empowered to do something if he believes in
himself and works hard.

The reason any of us want to pass programing on to others, is because we
have found that sense of empowerment for ourselves and would like to help
others to find it in the same place. As Mentors, Teachers, and or Parents I
think we are responsible for helping overcome some of the barriers that the
complexity of programing presents. Pointing to the training wheel
equivalent here alarms me we may be overlooking the key objective, which is
inspiration for a young person. Which in the case of "Thumbs up kid" came
from his Dad helping him get to his epiphany. The bike or the programing
language or the color of the bike are all ancillary.

The other big opportunities with code is the trivial cost of failure and
relatively unbound access to resources. How relevant would training wheels
be if falling down didn't hurt. Of course getting the balance is important
but that is why we are in the picture. On the resources side of things
before really getting into code I had a poor perspective of what could
really be done. Shedding light on possibilities and scale at little cost I
think can be an inspiration thing. Codeacademy and Khan start and such a
basic level it's hard to see the forest through the trees. Here me right, I
think they are great tools, I just personally found them frustrating
because of the great amount of time taken mucking through the weeds or
things that were already understood.

I did like this intro to python ebook ->
https://inventwithpython.com/chapters/. But, again recommendations are just
details, could also recommend JavaScript at this point because of the
resources available. Really all depends on the ( irrelevant but necessary )
objectives.

Thumbs up everybody!

On Thu, Dec 24, 2015 at 10:15 AM, Alan Johnson  wrote:

> My son (age 10) and I are learning Python together on
> https://www.codecademy.com/ here and there.  They have a bunch of
> languages there with a very similar style to https://www.khanacademy.org/
> .   We have not finished the course yet, so I don't know if it will get
> advanced enough for my preferences, but it is great for beginner
> programmers.  He has years of experience with Mindstorm GUI programming,
> and that is a great intro to basic programing concepts because it has
> programming instructions that are just like building Legos, but I agree
> with others that is not very representative of programming in general; it
> is down right painful to debug among other shortcomings.  So I'm hoping get
> him to switch to Python for Mindstorm
> .
> Also, then we can get rid of this last Windows machine in the house. =)
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 11:24 AM, Kenny Lussier 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> My daughter has expressed an interest in learning to code. It's a
>> non-specific, very general interest. She doesn't have a specific area of
>> interest that she wants to learn (UI, game development, HPC, etc.), she
>> just want to learn how to code.
>>
>> What do people think is the best language for a 12yr old to learn? What
>> is most flexible to use for different purposes? What tools are out there to
>> teach a kid to code? Code Academy and the like seem to be a little dry and
>> never yielded wonderful results for most of the adults I know, so other
>> ideas would be welcome.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Kenny
>>
>>
>> ___
>> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
>> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
>> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Alan Johnson
> a...@datdec.com
> Date Format PSA 
>
> ___
> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
>
>
___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

Re: What Language for a kid

[Alan Johnson]

My son (age 10) and I are learning Python together on
https://www.codecademy.com/ here and there.  They have a bunch of languages
there with a very similar style to https://www.khanacademy.org/ .   We have
not finished the course yet, so I don't know if it will get advanced enough
for my preferences, but it is great for beginner programmers.  He has years
of experience with Mindstorm GUI programming, and that is a great intro to
basic programing concepts because it has programming instructions that are
just like building Legos, but I agree with others that is not very
representative of programming in general; it is down right painful to debug
among other shortcomings.  So I'm hoping get him to switch to Python for
Mindstorm
.
Also, then we can get rid of this last Windows machine in the house. =)


On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 11:24 AM, Kenny Lussier  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> My daughter has expressed an interest in learning to code. It's a
> non-specific, very general interest. She doesn't have a specific area of
> interest that she wants to learn (UI, game development, HPC, etc.), she
> just want to learn how to code.
>
> What do people think is the best language for a 12yr old to learn? What is
> most flexible to use for different purposes? What tools are out there to
> teach a kid to code? Code Academy and the like seem to be a little dry and
> never yielded wonderful results for most of the adults I know, so other
> ideas would be welcome.
>
> Thanks,
> Kenny
>
>
> ___
> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
>
>


-- 
Alan Johnson
a...@datdec.com
Date Format PSA 
___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

Re: What Language for a kid

[Tom Buskey]

Scratch is on lots of Raspberry distros.  I think it's moved to internet
based with the most recent version.

Lego Mindstorms (also from MIT).

I think Minecraft PI is involved in some learn to program things.

Python is also good.  There are things out there for teaching kids with
Python.

I took my 11 yr old to a makerspace for an intro to python & he was playing
with the turtle graphics.  He had/has no interest in computers beyond
playing games.  I haven't been able to get him interested in RetroPi
either.  :-(   I'll have to keep trying.

On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 12:52 PM, Mark Komarinski 
wrote:

> I was going to recommend scratch as well.  I think it’s installed on some
> Pi distros so it should be easy to set up and use.
>
> -Mark
>
> On Dec 23, 2015, at 12:47 PM, Star  wrote:
>
> To go against the grain a little here, I'd probably recommend starting
> with something a little more touchy-feely, to see if the interest
> persists.  Start with scratch, it's available for everything, except maybe
> my toaster, but it's a little old.  If the building/seeing keeps the
> interest then move into the more abstract world of scripting/coding.
>
> Heck, my first experience was Logo on the Apple 2, but I could actually
> ~see~ what was going on as I learned the concepts.
>
> On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 12:42 PM Bill Freeman  wrote:
>
>> Probably not surprising anyone, I'm going to recommend Python.
>>
>> It lets you dip in to the structure of algorithms without having to first
>> learn to manage your own variable allocations, type restrictions, etc.
>> Those things can be added later when adding C or Java.
>>
>> Python is also available by default on Raspbery Pi (and clones), allowing
>> more tangible projects.
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 11:24 AM, Kenny Lussier 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> My daughter has expressed an interest in learning to code. It's a
>>> non-specific, very general interest. She doesn't have a specific area of
>>> interest that she wants to learn (UI, game development, HPC, etc.), she
>>> just want to learn how to code.
>>>
>>> What do people think is the best language for a 12yr old to learn? What
>>> is most flexible to use for different purposes? What tools are out there to
>>> teach a kid to code? Code Academy and the like seem to be a little dry and
>>> never yielded wonderful results for most of the adults I know, so other
>>> ideas would be welcome.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Kenny
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
>>> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
>>> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
>>>
>>> ___
>> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
>> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
>> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
>>
> ___
> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
>
>
>
> ___
> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
>
>
___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

Re: What Language for a kid

[Dan Garthwaite]

Python is the defacto intro language at colleges now.

I'm not sure what step one is to learn python but step two is
http://pythontutor.com

Click 'python' on the first page and then on each of the sample apps press
'Forward' until completion. That is pretty much all of computer science
10[0-9].

As for step 1?  Maybe http://checkio.com but I think that would be
overwhelming.



On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 11:24 AM, Kenny Lussier  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> My daughter has expressed an interest in learning to code. It's a
> non-specific, very general interest. She doesn't have a specific area of
> interest that she wants to learn (UI, game development, HPC, etc.), she
> just want to learn how to code.
>
> What do people think is the best language for a 12yr old to learn? What is
> most flexible to use for different purposes? What tools are out there to
> teach a kid to code? Code Academy and the like seem to be a little dry and
> never yielded wonderful results for most of the adults I know, so other
> ideas would be welcome.
>
> Thanks,
> Kenny
>
>
> ___
> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
>
>
___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

Re: What Language for a kid

[Kenny Lussier]

OK, three people in a matter of 10 minutes have suggested Kano to me. For
the benefit of others, The Kano is a raspberry Pi that kids build
themselves, and learn to code using examples from Minecraft and others.
It's a really cool system: http://us.kano.me/

On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 11:24 AM, Kenny Lussier  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> My daughter has expressed an interest in learning to code. It's a
> non-specific, very general interest. She doesn't have a specific area of
> interest that she wants to learn (UI, game development, HPC, etc.), she
> just want to learn how to code.
>
> What do people think is the best language for a 12yr old to learn? What is
> most flexible to use for different purposes? What tools are out there to
> teach a kid to code? Code Academy and the like seem to be a little dry and
> never yielded wonderful results for most of the adults I know, so other
> ideas would be welcome.
>
> Thanks,
> Kenny
>
>
___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

Re: What Language for a kid

[Mark Komarinski]

I was going to recommend scratch as well.  I think it’s installed on some Pi 
distros so it should be easy to set up and use.

-Mark

> On Dec 23, 2015, at 12:47 PM, Star  wrote:
> 
> To go against the grain a little here, I'd probably recommend starting with 
> something a little more touchy-feely, to see if the interest persists.  Start 
> with scratch, it's available for everything, except maybe my toaster, but 
> it's a little old.  If the building/seeing keeps the interest then move into 
> the more abstract world of scripting/coding.
> 
> Heck, my first experience was Logo on the Apple 2, but I could actually ~see~ 
> what was going on as I learned the concepts.
> 
> On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 12:42 PM Bill Freeman  > wrote:
> Probably not surprising anyone, I'm going to recommend Python.
> 
> It lets you dip in to the structure of algorithms without having to first 
> learn to manage your own variable allocations, type restrictions, etc.  Those 
> things can be added later when adding C or Java.
> 
> Python is also available by default on Raspbery Pi (and clones), allowing 
> more tangible projects.
> 
> On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 11:24 AM, Kenny Lussier  > wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> My daughter has expressed an interest in learning to code. It's a 
> non-specific, very general interest. She doesn't have a specific area of 
> interest that she wants to learn (UI, game development, HPC, etc.), she just 
> want to learn how to code. 
> 
> What do people think is the best language for a 12yr old to learn? What is 
> most flexible to use for different purposes? What tools are out there to 
> teach a kid to code? Code Academy and the like seem to be a little dry and 
> never yielded wonderful results for most of the adults I know, so other ideas 
> would be welcome.
> 
> Thanks,
> Kenny
> 
> 
> ___
> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org 
> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/ 
> 
> 
> ___
> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org 
> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/ 
> 
> ___
> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

Re: What Language for a kid

[Bill Freeman]

Probably not surprising anyone, I'm going to recommend Python.

It lets you dip in to the structure of algorithms without having to first
learn to manage your own variable allocations, type restrictions, etc.
Those things can be added later when adding C or Java.

Python is also available by default on Raspbery Pi (and clones), allowing
more tangible projects.

On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 11:24 AM, Kenny Lussier  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> My daughter has expressed an interest in learning to code. It's a
> non-specific, very general interest. She doesn't have a specific area of
> interest that she wants to learn (UI, game development, HPC, etc.), she
> just want to learn how to code.
>
> What do people think is the best language for a 12yr old to learn? What is
> most flexible to use for different purposes? What tools are out there to
> teach a kid to code? Code Academy and the like seem to be a little dry and
> never yielded wonderful results for most of the adults I know, so other
> ideas would be welcome.
>
> Thanks,
> Kenny
>
>
> ___
> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
>
>
___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

Re: What Language for a kid

[Kenny Lussier]

She did do a little with the Hour of Code thing last year, and I had
thought that her interest had dropped off after that. Come to find out, she
is very much still interested, just discouraged by the lack of exposure in
school.

I have to say, I have never heard of Scratch. There are a lot of people
suggesting it, so I should probably look into it ;-) It looks like a good
fundamentals

I'm not a coder, so a lot of this is new to me. I'm a scripter. I do bash,
some perl, some python... a little bit of LOLCode (no, really, you *CAN*
haz VAR!!).  I miss Logo. And Basic.

Thanks for all of the advice. I think I'll probably point her at Scratch.
and see where she goes with it. If she really does enjoy it, then maybe a
Kano is in her future, or possibly a Pi



Thanks,
Kenny


On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 12:49 PM, Matt Minuti  wrote:

> Also, did she do any hour of code stuff? That just happened recently, so
> perhaps that served as inspiration and could help guide the quest. Or maybe
> she just heard the rhetoric around it and thought it would be neat?
> On Dec 23, 2015 11:25 AM, "Kenny Lussier"  wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> My daughter has expressed an interest in learning to code. It's a
>> non-specific, very general interest. She doesn't have a specific area of
>> interest that she wants to learn (UI, game development, HPC, etc.), she
>> just want to learn how to code.
>>
>> What do people think is the best language for a 12yr old to learn? What
>> is most flexible to use for different purposes? What tools are out there to
>> teach a kid to code? Code Academy and the like seem to be a little dry and
>> never yielded wonderful results for most of the adults I know, so other
>> ideas would be welcome.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Kenny
>>
>>
>> ___
>> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
>> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
>> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
>>
>>
___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

Re: What Language for a kid

[Tom Buskey]

You can get the Kano OS separate from the RasPi bundle.  If you already
have a keyboard, mouse, HDMI TV (or HDMI to VGA + monitor) and an SD card,
you have the pieces already.

There are UK based PI magazines (MagPI is online I think) with Scratch and
other programming tutorials aimed at kids & kid like geeks.

FWIW, Scratch came out of the Logo work & both are MIT projects.

On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 1:46 PM, Kenny Lussier  wrote:

> She did do a little with the Hour of Code thing last year, and I had
> thought that her interest had dropped off after that. Come to find out, she
> is very much still interested, just discouraged by the lack of exposure in
> school.
>
> I have to say, I have never heard of Scratch. There are a lot of people
> suggesting it, so I should probably look into it ;-) It looks like a good
> fundamentals
>
> I'm not a coder, so a lot of this is new to me. I'm a scripter. I do bash,
> some perl, some python... a little bit of LOLCode (no, really, you *CAN*
> haz VAR!!).  I miss Logo. And Basic.
>
> Thanks for all of the advice. I think I'll probably point her at Scratch.
> and see where she goes with it. If she really does enjoy it, then maybe a
> Kano is in her future, or possibly a Pi
>
>
>
> Thanks,
> Kenny
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 12:49 PM, Matt Minuti 
> wrote:
>
>> Also, did she do any hour of code stuff? That just happened recently, so
>> perhaps that served as inspiration and could help guide the quest. Or maybe
>> she just heard the rhetoric around it and thought it would be neat?
>> On Dec 23, 2015 11:25 AM, "Kenny Lussier"  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> My daughter has expressed an interest in learning to code. It's a
>>> non-specific, very general interest. She doesn't have a specific area of
>>> interest that she wants to learn (UI, game development, HPC, etc.), she
>>> just want to learn how to code.
>>>
>>> What do people think is the best language for a 12yr old to learn? What
>>> is most flexible to use for different purposes? What tools are out there to
>>> teach a kid to code? Code Academy and the like seem to be a little dry and
>>> never yielded wonderful results for most of the adults I know, so other
>>> ideas would be welcome.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Kenny
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
>>> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
>>> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
>>>
>>>
>
> ___
> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
>
>
___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

Re: What Language for a kid

[Star]

To go against the grain a little here, I'd probably recommend starting with
something a little more touchy-feely, to see if the interest persists.
Start with scratch, it's available for everything, except maybe my toaster,
but it's a little old.  If the building/seeing keeps the interest then move
into the more abstract world of scripting/coding.

Heck, my first experience was Logo on the Apple 2, but I could actually
~see~ what was going on as I learned the concepts.

On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 12:42 PM Bill Freeman  wrote:

> Probably not surprising anyone, I'm going to recommend Python.
>
> It lets you dip in to the structure of algorithms without having to first
> learn to manage your own variable allocations, type restrictions, etc.
> Those things can be added later when adding C or Java.
>
> Python is also available by default on Raspbery Pi (and clones), allowing
> more tangible projects.
>
> On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 11:24 AM, Kenny Lussier 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> My daughter has expressed an interest in learning to code. It's a
>> non-specific, very general interest. She doesn't have a specific area of
>> interest that she wants to learn (UI, game development, HPC, etc.), she
>> just want to learn how to code.
>>
>> What do people think is the best language for a 12yr old to learn? What
>> is most flexible to use for different purposes? What tools are out there to
>> teach a kid to code? Code Academy and the like seem to be a little dry and
>> never yielded wonderful results for most of the adults I know, so other
>> ideas would be welcome.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Kenny
>>
>>
>> ___
>> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
>> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
>> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
>>
>> ___
> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
>
___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

Re: What Language for a kid

[Matt Minuti]

Also, did she do any hour of code stuff? That just happened recently, so
perhaps that served as inspiration and could help guide the quest. Or maybe
she just heard the rhetoric around it and thought it would be neat?
On Dec 23, 2015 11:25 AM, "Kenny Lussier"  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> My daughter has expressed an interest in learning to code. It's a
> non-specific, very general interest. She doesn't have a specific area of
> interest that she wants to learn (UI, game development, HPC, etc.), she
> just want to learn how to code.
>
> What do people think is the best language for a 12yr old to learn? What is
> most flexible to use for different purposes? What tools are out there to
> teach a kid to code? Code Academy and the like seem to be a little dry and
> never yielded wonderful results for most of the adults I know, so other
> ideas would be welcome.
>
> Thanks,
> Kenny
>
>
> ___
> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
>
>
___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

Re: What Language for a kid

[David Rysdam]

Paul Beaudet  writes:
> One thing I really want to recommend against is scratch or mindstorm. I
> think they are both really fun and all, but no one that solely uses
> graphical code block type systems self identify as a programmer or has
> confidence to tackle issues that involve code. Honestly it defeats the
> whole point of the exposure by making code look like a toy.

No, sorry, I have to completely disagree with this. "Doesn't look like
code" has nothing to do with anything.

What Scratch is great at is abstracting "how do I describe and debug an
algorithm" out from "how do I speak in this weird language and use these
weird tools". Teaching someone to program has nothing to do with how to
format Python/C/Java/Lisp code. Using pre-formatted blocks is a great
way to introduce those real fundamentals.

It is absolutely true (so far) that if you want to write "real" programs
you have to move beyond Scratch. But that doesn't make it a bad place to
start. But it is also true that if you want to write "real" programs,
just typing well-formatted C isn't enough--you have to understand when
and how to use conditionals, loops, functions and data structures.

For some people, using the tools is the fun part and if they happen to
learn some concepts that's a bonus. Those people might want to start
with Python or even C. Other people are interested in the concepts but
struggling with the tools is the barrier. For those people, Scratch is a
great introduction.
___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

Re: What Language for a kid

[Paul Beaudet]

Hey Kenny,

One thing I really want to recommend against is scratch or mindstorm. I
think they are both really fun and all, but no one that solely uses
graphical code block type systems self identify as a programmer or has
confidence to tackle issues that involve code. Honestly it defeats the
whole point of the exposure by making code look like a toy.

Personally I used the Mindstorm stuff when I was young (10-13) and never
thought I was cut out for coding because I was under the impression that I
was just using a toy, not really understanding how closely something like
scratch relates. It was only when I started writing some simple python
games a few years ago when I realized code is something I have the aptitude
for. Which is sad, honestly I wish I was "actually" exposed to code sooner.

Also definitely stir some interest and have a suitably challenging goal,
instead of doing school like lessons. That code academy stuff is super
boring and doesn't let you draw outside the lines. No interest means no
progress ( At least for me ). With Arduino's and Raspberry PIs there is
plenty of trouble to get into that might stir up some interest. Maybe
suggest an elaborate electronically controlled prank if that is your
daughters speed, or maybe something else! You know your daughter better
than us.

Cheers,
Paul

On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 1:55 PM, Tom Buskey  wrote:

> You can get the Kano OS separate from the RasPi bundle.  If you already
> have a keyboard, mouse, HDMI TV (or HDMI to VGA + monitor) and an SD card,
> you have the pieces already.
>
> There are UK based PI magazines (MagPI is online I think) with Scratch and
> other programming tutorials aimed at kids & kid like geeks.
>
> FWIW, Scratch came out of the Logo work & both are MIT projects.
>
> On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 1:46 PM, Kenny Lussier  wrote:
>
>> She did do a little with the Hour of Code thing last year, and I had
>> thought that her interest had dropped off after that. Come to find out, she
>> is very much still interested, just discouraged by the lack of exposure in
>> school.
>>
>> I have to say, I have never heard of Scratch. There are a lot of people
>> suggesting it, so I should probably look into it ;-) It looks like a good
>> fundamentals
>>
>> I'm not a coder, so a lot of this is new to me. I'm a scripter. I do
>> bash, some perl, some python... a little bit of LOLCode (no, really, you
>> *CAN* haz VAR!!).  I miss Logo. And Basic.
>>
>> Thanks for all of the advice. I think I'll probably point her at Scratch.
>> and see where she goes with it. If she really does enjoy it, then maybe a
>> Kano is in her future, or possibly a Pi
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Kenny
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 12:49 PM, Matt Minuti 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Also, did she do any hour of code stuff? That just happened recently, so
>>> perhaps that served as inspiration and could help guide the quest. Or maybe
>>> she just heard the rhetoric around it and thought it would be neat?
>>> On Dec 23, 2015 11:25 AM, "Kenny Lussier"  wrote:
>>>
 Hi All,

 My daughter has expressed an interest in learning to code. It's a
 non-specific, very general interest. She doesn't have a specific area of
 interest that she wants to learn (UI, game development, HPC, etc.), she
 just want to learn how to code.

 What do people think is the best language for a 12yr old to learn? What
 is most flexible to use for different purposes? What tools are out there to
 teach a kid to code? Code Academy and the like seem to be a little dry and
 never yielded wonderful results for most of the adults I know, so other
 ideas would be welcome.

 Thanks,
 Kenny


 ___
 gnhlug-discuss mailing list
 gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
 http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/


>>
>> ___
>> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
>> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
>> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
>>
>>
>
> ___
> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
>
>
___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/

Re: What Language for a kid

[Matt Minuti]

I have to agree with David here, except mindstorms is pretty awful, unless
the only concepts you're looking for are simple loops, do...while, and
conditionals, all mostly independent. It used to be based b some MIT stuff
and was scratch-like, but it's been LabVIEW since the NXT. The current
version, EV3, is also LabVIEW, though the brick itself runs Debian.
Ironically, there's no Linux support for the software. But for the absolute
basics, it's not bad, just don't try to do stuff with variables or you'll
pull your hair out.

There's a way to get scratch to talk to Lego WeDo stuff (the kernel
driver's been around forever), and arduino too. Might be offline version
only, or scratch 1 and not scratch 2, but I don't know. I left that job
before I had the chance to switch them to Linux :P
On Dec 23, 2015 9:38 PM, "David Rysdam"  wrote:

> Paul Beaudet  writes:
> > One thing I really want to recommend against is scratch or mindstorm. I
> > think they are both really fun and all, but no one that solely uses
> > graphical code block type systems self identify as a programmer or has
> > confidence to tackle issues that involve code. Honestly it defeats the
> > whole point of the exposure by making code look like a toy.
>
> No, sorry, I have to completely disagree with this. "Doesn't look like
> code" has nothing to do with anything.
>
> What Scratch is great at is abstracting "how do I describe and debug an
> algorithm" out from "how do I speak in this weird language and use these
> weird tools". Teaching someone to program has nothing to do with how to
> format Python/C/Java/Lisp code. Using pre-formatted blocks is a great
> way to introduce those real fundamentals.
>
> It is absolutely true (so far) that if you want to write "real" programs
> you have to move beyond Scratch. But that doesn't make it a bad place to
> start. But it is also true that if you want to write "real" programs,
> just typing well-formatted C isn't enough--you have to understand when
> and how to use conditionals, loops, functions and data structures.
>
> For some people, using the tools is the fun part and if they happen to
> learn some concepts that's a bonus. Those people might want to start
> with Python or even C. Other people are interested in the concepts but
> struggling with the tools is the barrier. For those people, Scratch is a
> great introduction.
> ___
> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
>
___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/