Re: melodrama at CentOS?

2009-08-06 Thread Joshua Judson Rosen
Bill McGonigle b...@bfccomputing.com writes:

 Still, all kinds of providers go through leadership changes and ousters
 all the time - this one is being done open-source style.  That seems to
 have some media people freaked out.

The whole `open-ness' idea still seems to be `new and unsettling' to a
lot of people; even people who are accustomed to open development in
software still get freaked-out when the open methodology is applied in
areas other than straight-up software development.

Openmoko, for example, has repeatedly had issues with the open
development model that they've used for their smartphone/palmtop/whatever
hardware and software: a bunch of things that were more like `team
status meetings', `team morale-raising sessions', etc. were all
mis-taken as being `press releases' and `marketing promises'. When the
`expected release-dates' slipped, the onlookers cried doom because the
company had `failed to deliver on its promises'; when the `mass production'
version of the hardware became available without readty-to-go,
everyman-UI smartphone /software/ preloaded, a lot of people called
foul on that. A `review' video appeared on Vimeo, called
OpenMoko Train Wreck, where the `reviewer' said things like
the software is so rough that I'm surprised that they're charging
this much for the hardware (what?), I know the bezel's there to
keep the screen from getting scratched, because they couldn't afford a
glass screen... (what?), and ultimately concluding that it (paraphrased)
`doesn't stand up to the iPhone, and anyone who tells you otherwise is
playing a cruel joke on you'.

But /of course/ the software wasn't going to be finished until after
the hardware became available, and /of course/ the addresses to the
engineering-teams were optimistic. There's actually been nothing
damning, or even unusual, in their development-process--except that
the things that are usually hidden away in the corporate bowels have
been happening out in the open, and the `engineering teams' have been
distributed throughout the same general-admission seating as the end
users and the press (so a challenge being faced is to communicate with
one segment of the audience without having the rest of the audience
hear it--I guess that's called... politics?). One of their more
notable communication-failures was when Sean Moss-Pultz announced that
a speculative project in an early planning stage was being cancelled,
and the news-articles that resulted from that bore headlines like
opensource phone company goes out of business.

People keep comparing the Openmoko project(s) to the iPhone,
also--quite unfavourably. Mainly, I think, it's just because the
iPhone `appeared fully-formed' where everyone's been able to watch all
of the Openmoko developments happening out in the open. But if you
look at the events that were hidden inside Apple leading up to the
iPhone's release (and the start-to-finish timeline), the pace of
Openmoko's progress is actually pretty impressive; even moreso if you
consider other factors like the relative amounts of funding that they
had, and the final prices (without carrier subsidies) of the different
products. And /of course/ the Openmoko devices don't compare to the
iPhone--it's (forgive me) Apples to oranges; The iPhone doesn't
compare very well if what you want is a FreeRunner, either ;)

So, yeah--the world at large is seemingly still, ever so slowly, coming
to grips with the notion of `transparency'.

-- 
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Re: melodrama at CentOS?

2009-08-06 Thread Joshua Judson Rosen
Joshua Judson Rosen roz...@geekspace.com writes:

 Bill McGonigle b...@bfccomputing.com writes:
 
  Still, all kinds of providers go through leadership changes and ousters
  all the time - this one is being done open-source style.  That seems to
  have some media people freaked out.
 
 The whole `open-ness' idea still seems to be `new and unsettling' to a
 lot of people; even people who are accustomed to open development in
 software still get freaked-out when the open methodology is applied in
 areas other than straight-up software development.
 
 Openmoko, for example, has repeatedly had issues with the open
 development model that they've used for their smartphone/palmtop/whatever
 hardware and software: a bunch of things that were more like `team
 status meetings', `team morale-raising sessions', etc. were all
 mis-taken as being `press releases' and `marketing promises'.

Rather, I should say that they've repeatedly had [public relations]
problems *due to* their open development model. The open development
model itself is working just fine :)

-- 
Don't be afraid to ask (Lf.((Lx.xx) (Lr.f(rr.
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Re: melodrama at CentOS?

2009-08-06 Thread Ben Scott
On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 4:49 PM, Joshua Judson Rosenroz...@geekspace.com wrote:
 People keep comparing the Openmoko project(s) to the iPhone,
 also--quite unfavourably. Mainly, I think, it's just because the
 iPhone `appeared fully-formed' ...

  Well, in all fairness, there have been a lot of FOSS zealots talking
up the Moko for *years* online, in magazines, press releases, etc.
You keep telling people that something is going to be the best thing
since swap space, and eventually some people might start to listen.

  But yah, overall, I think you're spot-on.

-- Ben
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Open development confuses the masses (was Re: melodrama at CentOS?)

2009-08-06 Thread Alan Johnson
On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 6:16 PM, Ben Scottdragonh...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 4:49 PM, Joshua Judson Rosenroz...@geekspace.com 
 wrote:
 People keep comparing the Openmoko project(s) to the iPhone,
 also--quite unfavourably. Mainly, I think, it's just because the
 iPhone `appeared fully-formed' ...

  Well, in all fairness, there have been a lot of FOSS zealots talking
 up the Moko for *years* online, in magazines, press releases, etc.
 You keep telling people that something is going to be the best thing
 since swap space, and eventually some people might start to listen.

  But yah, overall, I think you're spot-on.

In even more fairness, the same thing happened with Linux.  In the
early days, it compared poorly to Windows and Mac because it was not
yet trying to be those things.  Also to Joshua's point, Windows and
Mac compared poorly to Linux if you wanted to turn your PC into a
UNIX-workstation environment on your PC or a low-cost server.  The
zealots cried long and hard then about how great Linux was and only
now that we have later versions of Ubuntu (and the like) do we have
something that actually is better than Windows/Mac in all counts
except some proprietary pet-software aside and some drivers by
hardware manufacturers that STILL don't get that people are willing to
do their driver development for free.

I think what it breaks down to is that the zealots get excited about
the cool new cutting edge for very different reasons than the general
public.  In many cases, the geeks are excited about the potential of a
project or what it represents philosophically rather than today's
practical applications for the general public.  Openmoko is again a
good example as Sean Moss-Pultz says as much in a FLOSS Weekly netcast
(http://twit.tv/floss69).

It all boils down to all people not speaking clearly 100% of the time
and most of the public not listening with a true intent to understand
and therefore run off on wild tangents with irrelevant comparisons
based on false assumptions.

From what I know of the project, the FreeRunner has already done
surpassed anything an iPhone could dream of being in numerous
specialized applications.  In fact, the whole concept of specialized
applications does not really apply in any closed platform like the
iPhone... Well... not when compared to open platforms. =)  That is to
say, open platforms are arbitrarily easier to apply to specialized
problem domains.

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Re: melodrama at CentOS?

2009-08-05 Thread Paul Lussier
Ben Scott dragonh...@gmail.com writes:

 Debian zealots, note that APT has the same problem.

Please explain how so.  I've maintained internal Debian mirrors for
years which all my internal systems pointed to for package updates.  The
master, internal mirror server pointed at MIT's Debian repository, not
debian.org.  There was no connection to the internet from the internal
network, and I never had a problem with debian.org being unreachable.

--
Paul
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Re: melodrama at CentOS?

2009-08-05 Thread Ben Scott
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 8:54 AM, Paul Lussierp.luss...@comcast.net wrote:
  The various files that control package management explicitly mention
 centos.org as the master all over the place.
 Debian zealots, note that APT has the same problem.

 Please explain how so.  I've maintained internal Debian mirrors ...

  I was taking local to mean nearby, not internal.  Both YUM and
APT automatically select a nearby mirror from the master list.

  Obviously if you've already modified the config file to use a
different source, that's different.

-- Ben
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RE: melodrama at CentOS?

2009-08-03 Thread Flaherty, Patrick
 On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 4:23 PM, Bill 
 McGonigleb...@bfccomputing.com wrote:
  ... control of the domain name ...
  So, trust and brand value are at risk.
 
   That, and the massive organizational clusterfsck that would 
 ensue if they had to switch to a different domain name.  
 Everyone from the top down to a sysadmin with one box would 
 need to update their stuff.
 That's what I care the most about, since I'm one of those sysadmins.
 :-)

You should be using a local mirror!!! Update one rsync script and you're
done. 

If you have lots of centos boxes, try using spacewalk, works pretty
well.

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Re: melodrama at CentOS?

2009-08-03 Thread Bill McGonigle
[Ben gently reminded me I forgot to hit 'reply-all']

On 07/30/2009 06:01 PM, Ben Scott wrote:
   Is CentOS incorporated?  If not, there is no write-off.

Hrm?  I mean they probably can't expect to ever recover it.

  It's just
 that all their benefactors who gave them money will now be very
 concerned that their money went into somebody's pocket.  Lawsuits may
 follow.

If somebody took the donations and did something else with them, that
would be fraud.  Without a formal org, it's probably not embezzlement.

  Future donations may be less likely.

yes, without structure to prevent abuse.  Given structure, perhaps more.
 There's talk of a foundation.

  If they were depending
 on PayPal funds to keep servers running, operations may be impacted.

They're not.  They wanted to take the funds and do some marketing.
Servers and bandwidth are donated.  Labor is volunteered.

-Bill

-- 
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BFC Computing, LLC  Home: 603.448.1668
http://www.bfccomputing.com/Cell: 603.252.2606
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Re: melodrama at CentOS?

2009-08-03 Thread Ben Scott
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 10:14 AM, Flaherty, Patrickpflahe...@wsi.com wrote:
 ... control of the domain name ...
 So, trust and brand value are at risk.

 ... massive organizational clusterfsck that would ensue ...

 You should be using a local mirror!!! Update one rsync script and you're
 done.

  The various files that control package management explicitly mention
centos.org as the master all over the place.  Take a look at the
config files for YUM.  (Debian zealots, note that APT has the same
problem.)

  To say nothing of the fact that, if the project had to fork, they'll
almost certainly change the very name.

 If you have lots of centos boxes, try using spacewalk, works pretty
 well.

  When I was working at a consulting firm, a lot of our work was
maintaining Linux servers, one per customer.  I never had any luck
adapting management tools to that sort of situation.  The tools all
assume strong management from a single point, which you don't have
with a consulting engagement.  Of course, that was at least six years
ago I last looked, so things could well be different now.

-- Ben
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RE: melodrama at CentOS?

2009-08-03 Thread Flaherty, Patrick
  ... control of the domain name ...
  So, trust and brand value are at risk.
 
  ... massive organizational clusterfsck that would ensue ...
 
  You should be using a local mirror!!! Update one rsync script and 
  you're done.
 
   The various files that control package management 
 explicitly mention centos.org as the master all over the 
 place.  Take a look at the config files for YUM.  (Debian 
 zealots, note that APT has the same
 problem.)

   To say nothing of the fact that, if the project had to 
 fork, they'll almost certainly change the very name.
I was trying to be funny, but since you're being fuddy. It wouldn't be
anything more than a semantic name change. There's no forking going on,
there's no forking going on, there's no forking going on. The guy who
registered the domain name, controls it's dns, and runs their paypal
stuff was being uncooperative. According to the centos mailing list and
front page that's no longer the case. The worst case scenario (which
isn't even going to happen) they need to get a new domain name to use
for a homepage (my suggestion is centos-hates-lance.org)

The only files that yum cares about are yum.conf (no mention of centos)
and any repo files included via /etc/yum.repos.d (multiple centos
reference). It's true that you may have to run sed -i
's/mirrors.centos.org/mirrors.centos-ng/g' /etc/yum.repos.d/*, but that
would be it. The yum plugins don't mention centos.org, the docs don't
mention centos.org, nothing that I've ever seen is dependant on
centos.org but the repo file (which i don't have to use because I point
my servers at spacewalk/smug). Even if someone were to jack the domain
name, the build machines are the ones with the signing key for packages,
the hijacker wouldn't have it, and the packages wouldn't verify on your
machine. 

  If you have lots of centos boxes, try using spacewalk, works pretty 
  well.
 
   When I was working at a consulting firm, a lot of our work 
 was maintaining Linux servers, one per customer.  I never had 
 any luck adapting management tools to that sort of situation. 
  The tools all assume strong management from a single point, 
 which you don't have with a consulting engagement.  Of 
 course, that was at least six years ago I last looked, so 
 things could well be different now.

Spacewalk is sorta like wsus, machines check in tell you what their
patch level is. You can approve new patch levels and push them out to
the machines. It's the upstream for RedHat network, but it is rather
centralized.

Patrick

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Re: melodrama at CentOS?

2009-08-03 Thread Jarod Wilson
On Aug 3, 2009, at 2:02 PM, Flaherty, Patrick wrote:

 Spacewalk is sorta like wsus, machines check in tell you what their
 patch level is. You can approve new patch levels and push them out to
 the machines. It's the upstream for RedHat network, but it is rather
 centralized.

Two minor clarifications:

1) its Red Hat, not RedHat. :)

2) spacewalk is the upstream project for the RHN Satellite product,  
not for RHN as a whole.


-- 
Jarod Wilson
ja...@wilsonet.com



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Re: melodrama at CentOS?

2009-08-01 Thread Bill McGonigle
There's an update today:

The CentOS Development team had a routine meeting today with Lance Davis
in attendance. During the meeting a majority of issues were resolved
immediately and a working agreement was reached with deadlines for
remaining unresolved issues. There should be no impact to any CentOS users
going forward.

The CentOS project is now in control of the CentOS.org and CentOS.info
domains and owns all trademarks, materials, and artwork in the CentOS
distributions.

We look forward to working with Lance to quickly complete all the agreed
upon issues.

More information will follow soon.
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Re: melodrama at CentOS?

2009-08-01 Thread Jerry Feldman
I saw that earlier, and it is great news.

On 08/01/2009 08:47 AM, Bill McGonigle wrote:
 There's an update today:

 The CentOS Development team had a routine meeting today with Lance Davis
 in attendance. During the meeting a majority of issues were resolved
 immediately and a working agreement was reached with deadlines for
 remaining unresolved issues. There should be no impact to any CentOS users
 going forward.

 The CentOS project is now in control of the CentOS.org and CentOS.info
 domains and owns all trademarks, materials, and artwork in the CentOS
 distributions.

 We look forward to working with Lance to quickly complete all the agreed
 upon issues.

   


-- 
Jerry Feldman g...@blu.org
Boston Linux and Unix
PGP key id: 537C5846
PGP Key fingerprint: 3D1B 8377 A3C0 A5F2 ECBB  CA3B 4607 4319 537C 5846




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Re: melodrama at CentOS?

2009-07-31 Thread Jerry Feldman
Lance and the CentOS team have provided a very valuable service to the
entire Linux community throughout its existence by making an enterprise
(specifically RHEL) Linux available to those who need it, but can't
afford the pay for the full enterprise package. I would hope that Lance
does reconcile with his team.

-- 
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Boston Linux and Unix
PGP key id: 537C5846
PGP Key fingerprint: 3D1B 8377 A3C0 A5F2 ECBB  CA3B 4607 4319 537C 5846




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Re: melodrama at CentOS?

2009-07-30 Thread Michael ODonnell


Anybody know anything beyond what's mentioned in this open letter
to CentOS's Lance Davis signed by a number of key CentOS players?

   http://www.centos.org/

Ah.  Some further info here:

   
http://www.h-online.com/open/Growing-unrest-within-the-CentOS-project--/news/113889
 
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Re: melodrama at CentOS?

2009-07-30 Thread Shawn O'Shea
A number of the developers have posted some information on their personal
blogs. The CentOS Planet has a number of them in their aggregation:
http://planet.centos.org/

-Shawn

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Michael ODonnell 
michael.odonn...@comcast.net wrote:


 Anybody know anything beyond what's mentioned in this open letter
 to CentOS's Lance Davis signed by a number of key CentOS players?

   http://www.centos.org/

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Re: melodrama at CentOS?

2009-07-30 Thread Ben Scott
  Sounds like they had one person (Lance Davis) who was the sole
operator for certain key resources (namely the domain name and the
Paypal donation account), and he's gone inactive.

  This is why GNHLUG has a Board of Directors.  Disorganized, slow,
and ineffectual we may be, but there's more than one of us.  :-)

-- Ben
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Re: melodrama at CentOS?

2009-07-30 Thread Jerry Feldman
I heard he is visiting Hans Reiser :-)

On 07/30/2009 11:36 AM, Michael ODonnell wrote:
 Anybody know anything beyond what's mentioned in this open letter
 to CentOS's Lance Davis signed by a number of key CentOS players?

http://www.centos.org/
  
   


-- 
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Boston Linux and Unix
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Re: melodrama at CentOS?

2009-07-30 Thread Bill McGonigle

Seems like the key issue is control of the domain name, which was taken
'private registration' a few months ago.  Without it, the project can't
keep their commitment to their users of n years worth of updates.  So,
trust and brand value are at risk.

I suspect their PayPal account can be written off at this point -
perhaps why the holder of the account is under the radar.  Not that
anybody should ever keep a balance in PayPal, that has its own set of
horror stories.

Still, all kinds of providers go through leadership changes and ousters
all the time - this one is being done open-source style.  That seems to
have some media people freaked out.

A bunch of people who have earned excellent reputations in the linux
community are signatories to the letter.

-Bill

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Re: melodrama at CentOS?

2009-07-30 Thread Ben Scott
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 4:23 PM, Bill McGonigleb...@bfccomputing.com wrote:
 ... control of the domain name ...
 So, trust and brand value are at risk.

  That, and the massive organizational clusterfsck that would ensue if
they had to switch to a different domain name.  Everyone from the top
down to a sysadmin with one box would need to update their stuff.
That's what I care the most about, since I'm one of those sysadmins.
:-)

 I suspect their PayPal account can be written off at this point ...

  Is CentOS incorporated?  If not, there is no write-off.  It's just
that all their benefactors who gave them money will now be very
concerned that their money went into somebody's pocket.  Lawsuits may
follow.  Future donations may be less likely.  If they were depending
on PayPal funds to keep servers running, operations may be impacted.
(This is all speculation on my part, don't take it as the sky is
falling.  Rather, If the sky falls, this is what it will feel
like.)

 Not that anybody should ever keep a balance in PayPal, that
 has its own set of horror stories.

  People do lots of things that people shouldn't do.  :-(

 That seems to have some media people freaked out.

  Controversy sells papers.

-- Ben

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