Re: Article

[bscott]

On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, at 4:26pm, Jon Hall wrote:
> So his campaign worked, to a large extent.

  Unfortunately, his campaign also alienated a lot of (potential)  
supporters.  I have to wonder if he didn't end up with a net loss.

-- 
Ben Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
| The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not |
| necessarily represent the views or policy of any other person, entity or  |
| organization.  All information is provided without warranty of any kind.  |


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Re: Article

[Jon Hall]

Hi,

When RMS started the campaign, I thought it was a big pain in the butt.  On
the other hand, I did agree that the work that the FSF and others (XFree86,
KDE, etc.) was getting lost in the commotion about "Linux".

While I still tend to call the OS "Linux", now I mention the FSF and the
other groups much more than I used to mention them.

So his campaign worked, to a large extent.

GNU/maddog
-- 
=
Jon "maddog" Hall
Executive Director   Linux International(SM)
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 80 Amherst St. 
Voice: +1.603.672.4557   Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A.
WWW: http://www.li.org

Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association

(R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries.
(SM)Linux International is a service mark of Linux International, Inc.


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Re: Article

[Andrew W. Gaunt]

Maybe we should call it:

G/linl - Gnu/linux is not linux.

That should clear up all the confusion ;)

-Andy


"Kenneth E. Lussier" wrote:
> 
> As I was parusing Kero5hin, I came accross a great article. It is a
> public apology to the Linux world for getting RMS on the "GNU/Linux"
> kick. Funny read
> 
> http://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2002/8/1/04512/12614
> 
> C-Ya,
> Kenny
> --
> 
> "Tact is just *not* saying true stuff" -- Cordelia Chase
> 
> Kenneth E. Lussier
> Sr. Systems Administrator
> Zuken, USA
> PGP KeyID CB254DD0
> http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCB254DD0
> 
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Article

[Kenneth E. Lussier]

As I was parusing Kero5hin, I came accross a great article. It is a
public apology to the Linux world for getting RMS on the "GNU/Linux"
kick. Funny read

http://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2002/8/1/04512/12614

C-Ya,
Kenny
-- 

"Tact is just *not* saying true stuff" -- Cordelia Chase

Kenneth E. Lussier
Sr. Systems Administrator
Zuken, USA
PGP KeyID CB254DD0 
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCB254DD0



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Article on the Oregonian on schools moving to Linux

[Richard Soule]

Aggressive 'random audits' during the sales process may be leading
schools away from MS.

:)

http://makeashorterlink.com/?G1F5469E

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Help getting an IEEE article

[plussier]

Hi all,

I need to get an article in the March, 2002, vol. 35 #3 issue of the 
IEEE Computer journal.  The name of the article is:

Self Organization and Identification of Web Communities
authors: Flake, Lawrence, Giles, Coetzee

My wife needs this for a paper she's writing, but neither of us have 
an IEEE membership.  Would someone out there who does have an IEEE
membership be able to provide me with this article in some electronic 
format?  From the looks of the site, a PDF is available, but you must 
be a member.

I'd (rather, my wife would) really appreciate any help.

Thanks,


-- 
Paul Lussier
 Senior Systems and Network Engineer

 Co-Chairman, Greater New Hampshire Linux User's Group (GNHLUG)
   Chairman, Nashua Chapter GNHLUG
http://www.gnhlug.org
   Events: http://www.gnhlug.org/lug_cal/month.php


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Re: linux article

[John Feole]

>
>
>Good one!  I like that...
>
JFeole

>
>Yes, it's the Windows "Nonexistent Edition."
>
>It doesn't do much, but they finally fixed all the security holes!
>
>Rich Cloutier
>President, C*O
>SYSTEM SUPPORT SERVICES
>www.sysupport.com
>
>
>
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>




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Re: linux article

[Rich C]

- Original Message - 
From: "Derek D. Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: linux article


> Also, Evidently
> Microsoft convinced the German Parliament to continue using Windows
> NE.  I wasn't aware they had such a product.
> 

Yes, it's the Windows "Nonexistent Edition."

It doesn't do much, but they finally fixed all the security holes!

Rich Cloutier
President, C*O
SYSTEM SUPPORT SERVICES
www.sysupport.com



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Re: linux article

[Jerry Feldman]

WINDOWS.NE - Windows Not Enough.
On 5 Mar 2002 at 14:55, Derek D. Martin wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> At some point hitherto, [EMAIL PROTECTED] hath spake thusly:
> > 
> > I love it when this type of thing shows up on MSnbc :)
> > 
> > http://www.msnbc.com/news/718622.asp
> 
> The thing that I find interesting is how many of the details they
> flubbed.  For example, the K Desktop Environment will finally be
> released this spring...  I guess that wasn't KDE that our users were
> using all along.  Wonder what the hell it was...  Also, Evidently
> Microsoft convinced the German Parliament to continue using Windows
> NE.  I wasn't aware they had such a product.
> 
> 
> - -- 
> Derek Martin   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> - -
> I prefer mail encrypted with PGP/GPG!
> GnuPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D
> Retrieve my public key at http://pgp.mit.edu
> Learn more about it at http://www.gnupg.org
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
> 
> iD8DBQE8hSLEdjdlQoHP510RAtTdAJ42THkcajyOazukcun+AYoxPNPtqQCgo/iR
> rgFK/aLrQH+WXnKOegP7Ypw=
> =rfor
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> 
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Jerry Feldman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Associate Director
Boston Linux and Unix user group
http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9
PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9


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Re: linux article

[Derek D. Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

At some point hitherto, [EMAIL PROTECTED] hath spake thusly:
> 
> I love it when this type of thing shows up on MSnbc :)
> 
>   http://www.msnbc.com/news/718622.asp

The thing that I find interesting is how many of the details they
flubbed.  For example, the K Desktop Environment will finally be
released this spring...  I guess that wasn't KDE that our users were
using all along.  Wonder what the hell it was...  Also, Evidently
Microsoft convinced the German Parliament to continue using Windows
NE.  I wasn't aware they had such a product.


- -- 
Derek Martin   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- -
I prefer mail encrypted with PGP/GPG!
GnuPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D
Retrieve my public key at http://pgp.mit.edu
Learn more about it at http://www.gnupg.org
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

iD8DBQE8hSLEdjdlQoHP510RAtTdAJ42THkcajyOazukcun+AYoxPNPtqQCgo/iR
rgFK/aLrQH+WXnKOegP7Ypw=
=rfor
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: linux article

[Richard Soule]

"It would be irresponsible to entrust the work of Parliament to
closed-source software."
Jorg Tauss, Deputy for the Social Democrats, when asked about 
switching the Parliments MS servers to Linux

Nice quote!

Rich

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> I love it when this type of thing shows up on MSnbc :)
> 
> http://www.msnbc.com/news/718622.asp
> --
> 
> Seeya,
> Paul
> 
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linux article

[plussier]

I love it when this type of thing shows up on MSnbc :)

http://www.msnbc.com/news/718622.asp
-- 

Seeya,
Paul



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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Bruce Dawson]

Mike: Thanks for replying to this user while I've been busy.

RABNUD: I'm sorry for taking so long to reply, but this is the first 
chance I've had to write a proper reponse.

Also, it looks like Mike, (one of our more, ummm, shall we say "direct" 
members) has replied accurately and succinctly. I'm sorry if he offended 
you by the tone of his response - he probably places more importance in 
accurate speech than on being politically correct. However, please don't 
take this as GNHLUG leadership apologizing on behalf of a member - I'm 
not. We all have to stand by what we say and do, and if people don't 
like it, then the speaker/doer has a "learning opportunity."

But on to the substance of your message...

The web site was created so that people who are more comfortable with 
the web than with mailing lists can participate in the group - an 
attempt to open a channel to a wider audience for promoting Linux in New 
Hampshire. Your difficulty with the web site (and the mailing list 
discussion) is making me re-think this approach. Perhaps the group isn't 
ready for "public" exposure, perhaps the audience isn't ready for the 
technical discussions (and attendent "politics"). I'm not yet ready to 
take the news site down, (a sample of just one isn't sufficient to make 
me do that), but I am now more enlightened as to the difficulties 
"newbies" have with Linux (and the culture that produced it).

As to the deleted messages and censorship - I'm the only administrator 
for the news site, and I haven't deleted any of your comments. And I 
assure you that no one is censoring the site - let alone having 
permissions to! I am disturbed that content may be mysteriously 
disappearing and will continue keeping an eye out (both for a 
replacement package and for bugs in the existing package). There's also 
the possiblity that you merely haven't exposed all of the comments - use 
the "Flat" or "Nested" display of comments (instead of the default of 
"Thread") - the selection box is at the end of the article when you 
click "Read More". And remember to click "Refresh".

To address some of your issues:

 > "In the defense of fellow Newbies, though, we get
 > easily led in a hundred directions by the various
 > support avenues which come with Linux:"

Believe it or not - I, as a computer user having had way too much 
exposure to proprietary and closed support systems, prefer the "Linux 
way" much more than the alternatives. Granted, its frustrating for 
newbies, but its better than no answer or worse, the wrong answer. At 
least with several references and a bit of time, I can puzzle through 
things - and with access to the sources - I can determine exactly what 
the problem is. That is not possible with any proprietary system I've 
ever been exposed to (with the possible exception of some military 
systems). In short - I'd rather be deluged with vague information (and 
have the source handy) than be authoratively told the wrong thing.

There's also a hidden benefit - one learns a lot on the way to figuring 
out how to make something work.

If you don't like the "hundred directions", then you can always buy 
support - just like with the Linux alternatives.  But if you want all of 
your questions pre-answered then you're headed for disappointment - not 
just with Linux, but with any and all software products. Just keep in 
mind that Linux really doesn't make anyone much money - a lot of people 
do it just because they're so frustrated with the alternatives - and the 
price is right. Holding the hands of newbies cost money - and newbies 
are notorious for not wanting to pay - which is part of the reason there 
aren't many companies providing free software support for any software 
product!

By the way, I don't mean to imply that Linux is perfect just as it is - 
far from it! But I know its not perfect and accept it. Just like people 
who buy used cars with dents in them - its worth the savings in money 
and aggravation of buying new cars (which I used to do).

But I'm an old hand and young newbies never listen to us old-timers 
anyway... ;-) I guess the younger crowd just likes the pain of learning 
the same lessons we did :^|

 > They get online and get into the forum and there
 > they find fellow newbies posting forum answers!!!
 > But you've considered this elsewhere, right? Right:
 > the next avenue is/was to include HTML based
 > help documents along with the distro. All is local,
 > problem solved... Oops, dopey newbie... I forgot to
 > install Lynx... and X is crashed
 >...
 > That is what I and fellow newbies call no help.
 > Ulitmately, this amounts to obfuscation!

Humm. It sounds like you got lazy in doing installs, 

Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[RABNUD]

At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:

>Err, there are no moderators on this mailing listmaking private replies
impossibleShaheen''s email forgery law in NH made email without a valid
reply address illegal in NH<

Sigh again, assumes I sent an email to someone/somelist, which I
have already explained I did not: I posted via a web page comment
section, the webmaster needs to address your concerns.

Remember, I''m a newbie: quoting chapter and verse of the "Local
governmental legislation", "omniscient tradition" or "staid unix" law
will serve only to instill fears - welcome to Linux, you good for
nothing #$%.

In fact, as I review the article, I see that many of my comments no
longer remain (though a few do remain). I post, but they are removed by
someone with administrative privileges. Mike: this does not alarm me
very much: someone is interested in presenting a certain point of view
with my words; that someone is not me, but someone else. As do you wish
to present a certain view. I take the chance that my view gets through
the editing process.

Should you wish to offer a personal reply, one which is *relevant* to my
initial post, I''ll make it plain and simple for you
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Yes, that is correct and is not mangled in any fashion.

Be kind: temper your emails, you already appear quite heavy handed.



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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Bill Sconce]

Paul Lussier wrote:

> What he asked for just simply doesn't exist.  That doesn't mean it
> can't or it won't, just that it doesn't now.  [...]  If this thing
> comes about at all, it will be because those who need it decide to
> band together and develop it themselves

NOW we're getting somewhere...

> just like everything else that already exists in the Free/Open
> Source software world.

Aha.  Some Give to go with the Gimme.


> I'm sorry some people have a problem reading a book.

[Yikes.]


> We've told you that what you're asking for doesn't exist, we've
> told you what *does* exist, and we've offered more than once to
> help you understand those things you're having trouble on.

I was serious about being an Elmer, about receiving a telephone
call and arranging to help out in person.  (I suspect I could drag
others in to help if necessary, too.  Right?)  

This is something I believe the group is very good at, and is
a primary reason for the group to exist.  Linux IS too frustrating
and time-consuming sometimes, and not just for newbies.

The phone has been silent.



> What more do you want?

Perhaps he wants to be a manager? :)


-Bill


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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Paul Lussier]

In a message dated: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:54:38 EST
Ray Bowles said:

>Somebody keeps saying it's been done this way for 30
>years...Well maybe it's time to update SOME things.

Ray, you seem to have completely misunderstood everything everyone 
has said, at least on this side of the argument.

This guy came saying he was looking for something which we told him 
doesn't exist.  At no point did anyone say that "This is the way it's 
been for 30 years, and that's the way it has to be forever!"  Not 
once!

We have pointed out the long history of why Linux is the way it is, 
how it got to be that way, and pointed to several alternatives which 
fit *all* the criteria this person was asking for, just not 
necessarilly in the nice neat little package he requested it in.

What he asked for just simply doesn't exist.  That doesn't mean it 
can't or it won't, just that it doesn't now.  And, chances are, you 
won't get many veteran UNIX users to work on such a project.  Why?  
Because we don't need it and we have better things to do with our 
time.  If this thing comes about at all, it will be because those who 
need it decide to band together and develop it themselves, just like 
everything else that already exists in the Free/Open Source software 
world.

We are not at all against welcoming new people to the Linux 
community.  Quite the contrary, we welcome with open arms.  But we 
also warn them, this isn't Windows, this isn't point 'n' click, and 
you're likely to spend many hours with a computer that does nothing 
more than power on, so get ready for the learning roller-coaster ride 
of your life.

What we do not welcome is people coming in and telling us that 
because something *they* want should be welcomed by everyone and that 
we should all get excited about *their* ideas because *they* want it!
Sorry, life doesn't work that way.  I'm sorry some people have a 
problem reading a book.  I'm sorry some people get frustrated with 
the fact that Linux isn't as easy to use as Windows *appears* to be.
But unless you're willing to learn using the *currently* available 
methods, then stop your whining.  We've told you that what you're 
asking for doesn't exist, we've told you what *does* exist, and we've 
offered more than once to help you understand those things you're 
having trouble on.  What more do you want?

Sorry for the rant, but your stubborness and obtuseness are beginning 
to get to me.
-- 

Seeya,
Paul


  God Bless America!

 If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right!

...we don't need to be perfect to be the best around,
and we never stop trying to be better. 
   Tom Clancy, The Bear and The Dragon



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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Ray Bowles]

*** On Wed, 13 Feb 2002 at 1:34pm RABNUD shared this with the class::
> and he watches the gears spin. Psst: (whisper) they just learned
> something and quietly gained confidence in the cli aspect of Linux
> .

I don't know you from a hole in the wall, but you have got to be the
smartest person on this LUG right now. I completely agree with what you
are saying and may it's a next generation (young) Linux user thing, but
this is deffinately something that is needed. Gone are the days of sitting
for hours trying to figure out everything on your own. Today people (and
their kids) want things a bit quicker than that. Their not looking for
people to do things for them but their looking to learn it faster than
their elders. Somebody keeps saying it's been done this way for 30
years...Well maybe it's time to update SOME things. Not everythin! We're
not Yoda and newbies aren't trying to learn how to control the force. This
crap about 30 year old concepts need to change if we want more people to
use linux and use it better than us. Think where you would be today if you
had a P4 2GHZ machine running and distro and better help from people and
some sort of help system like the one being described here.

My 2 (canadian)cents



Ray

--
Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path
and leave a trail.


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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Ken D'Ambrosio]

On Wed, 2002-02-13 at 17:45, Rich C wrote:

> Right, the man pages are a reference work. That's the way I have always
> considered them. You don't start reading the reference section of a
> programmers manual to learn a new language, do you? Of course not. Man pages
> are NOT a help system. For the CLI, there IS NO HELP SYSTEM. It's as simple
> as that.

Okay, I'll bite: VMS's help was good, but it wasn't like it was amazing
or anything.  Fairly often, I had to hit the proverbial "documentation
wall": that stack o' VMS manuals that took up a whole damn table.  If
man pages == "NO HELP SYSTEM", then what *WOULD* you consider a help
system?  I know that MS's "help", as convenient as it may be to hit F1,
rarely helps me... whereas man pages usually do, and almost always point
me in the right direction -- something that MS rarely does.  Bottom
line: what do you want for help?  An AI assistant to help you with
everything?  If so, I've got some bad news for you...

$.02...

-Ken



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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Paul Lussier]

In a message dated: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:23:50 EST
"Derek D. Martin" said:

>And how could I forget to mention Evi Nemeth's wonderful "Unix System
>Administration Handbook" which now covers Linux (but focuses on Red
>Hat).  She will soon be releasing a Linux-specific version of the book
>as well, though it's still being reviewed now, so it may be a while
>before it's out.  :)

Actually they're pushing for a March release date.  I have the last 
chapter for review in my hands, and it needs to go back tomorrow :)

We'll see.  It promises to be the best version to date of this age 
old favorite!
-- 

Seeya,
Paul


  God Bless America!

 If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right!

...we don't need to be perfect to be the best around,
and we never stop trying to be better. 
   Tom Clancy, The Bear and The Dragon



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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Bruce Dawson]

Thanks for posting this Mike - I've been waiting for some of the regular 
"subscribers" to at least mention the web site (visit and offering to 
help maintain it would be nice too).

> I just posted some FAQs to the news web site that might answer 
some of your questions. (I chose to point out the reflection of mailing 
list messages as a FAQ instead of a top message block.)

   > The duplicating quotes is the bain of my existence right now - If 
someone can figure out how to stop is (and keep PHP's MagicQuotes off), 
I'd sure like to know!

   > The "'outlook/AOL style' of enclosing quoted text between '>' and 
'<'" must be coming from the software that converts HTML to plain text. 
(That people on the mailing list wanted).  I haven't noticed it (or at 
least am not annoyed by it) in the email messages I received.

 > I believe you might have some questions as to the definition of 
"valid reply address" in NH's email forgery "law" - which I believe 
isn't law  yet. Because all the postings do have valid reply addresses - 
but I suspect you want the reply address to go back to the original author.

I believe there's enough information in the site's database to do that 
(and still protect us from spamming email harvesters), its just a matter 
of writing the code to do it. I wrote the original "mailing list 
porting" code, but I don't have time anymore to enhance it to provide 
this feature. Either someone gets to relieve me of my GNHLUG duties to 
free up some time to do this, or I can send someone the code and they 
can work on it. Volunteers anyone?

--Bruce

mike ledoux wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 11:36:57AM -0500, RABNUD wrote:
> 
>>At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:
>>
>>Howdy!
>>
>>Let me say right off that the moderators will certainly edit this post -
>>with a huge grin!!
>>
> 
> Err, there are no moderators on this mailing list.  The website you're
> using to post is really a gateway to the existing mailing list for GNHLUG.
> 
> Perhaps this could be made more clear on the website?  Right now there
> seems to be no indication at all that posts to the website get gatewayed
> to the mailing list.
> 
> 
>>>There is no shortage of printed material at
>>>
>>any self respecting bookstore on any particular flavor/distro of LinuxIt
>>would certainly be nice if there was some magical place/programbut as
>>with all other things
>>in life, with knowledge comes power
>>would never have attempted to
>>change the head gasket in my father''s engine without some
>>understandingdigestabilityfine manuals can make all the difference<
>>
> 
> The web->mail gateway seems to be duplicating quotes (') again.
> 
> Also, this 'outlook/AOL style' of enclosing quoted text between '>'
> and '<' is obnoxious.  I can't tell if it is the web->mail gateway or
> 'RABNUD' that is doing it, since I've only noticed it in 'his' (wild
> guess, since I don't have a name) messages.  Whichever it is, please
> switch to the standard method of leading quoted lines with '> '.
> 
> Last thing, these web->mail gateway posts are still all coming from the
> same address, making private replies impossible.  I seem to recall that
> one of the provisions of Shaheen's email forgery law in NH made email
> without a valid reply address illegal in NH, but I can't find a reference
> for that at the moment.  Finding information about NH laws online
> is painful.
> 
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> [EMAIL PROTECTED]  OpenPGP KeyID 0x57C3430B
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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Derek D. Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

At some point hitherto, Rich C hath spake thusly:
> What is needed in a help system is something like what VMS had, but for
> subject keywords like backup, restore, copy, directory, and stuff like that.
> The help system doesn't really have to do much more than reference the
> proper command to use, and say "Oh, you want to copy something? Well, if
> it's just a file or two, see "cp." If it's an entire directory structure,
> see "tar." If you want to copy a partition or disk, see "dd." Then the man
> page can take over.

Linux has many examples of such help systems...  They're called
"books" and you can get it for $40 at your local Barnes & Noble.  I
named several examples of such help systems in earlier posts.  And in
most cases, they actually come with Linux on a CD insert.  So you
don't even need to pay extra for someone else's boxed set.

And, as I also said, Red Hat has pretty good manuals that cover most
of what is being discussed here, including where to get more help if
needed.  If you buy the boxed set, you get printed copies.  If you
don't, they are (or at least always were) on the install CD.

Whaddaya want for nothing?  Seriously...  In my experience, NO ONE
likes writing extensive documentation, unless they're getting paid to
do it.  If you want professional quality documentation for your FREE
operating system, you're going to have to pay for it.  I really don't
think that's so unreasonable.

I think it's unlikely that anyone will ever spend time on such a
project, because there are already numerous voluminous references
available.  The free software community generally works on things when
it perceives a need for them, and given all that is already available
in print, and on linuxdoc.org, much of which also typically ships with
the distro CDs, I just don't see this happening.  The documentation
whose absence everyone is complaining about DOES already exist.  You
just need to know where to find it, and/or be willing to shell out
your $40 at the book store.  As for finding it, that's why groups like
this exist.

When did the idea of reading books become so offensive?  Hell, you can
probably get some of these books at your local library, and not have
to fork over the $40 to own it.

I will also note that I believe the real problem is that people are
trying to install Linux on their system before they really spend any
time investigating how to do it, and what the options are.  You should
already have the appropriate documentation, and read through some of
it, before you ever boot the install CD.  It's like buying a VCR was
back 15 years ago, before anyone had seen them... or any other new
technology for that matter.  Yes, you can figure out how to make it
work by tinkering with it, but you'll probably get really frustrated a
number of times, and miss out on a whole bunch of features it has,
spend way more time on it that way, than you would have if you'd just
taken the time to read the manual first...  Would you plan a trip to
another country before investigating what there is to do and where
there is to stay?  

The automobile analogy applies here too...  you don't go out and buy a
car, get your license to drive, and THEN start learning how.  You
learn how first, then you do it.  

Why is installing Linux so different for people then?

If you investigate your installation options before installing for the
first time, you'll find out that you don't have to wipe out your
Windows partition, and so when you have a problem getting stuff to
work you can just reboot into Windows, and look at docs on-line.
Print out anything you think you might need, and then have another go
at fixing your Linux problems.

Another thought that has occured to me is that what newbies really
want is for Linux to be just like that other thing they are accustomed
to (whatever it might be).  Well, it isn't.  And it never will be.
That's the point.  If you don't want to take the time to learn
something new, then really Linux isn't for you.  And that's ok.

As is often the case with Linux, the horse that is being flogged to
death here is a perception/awareness/mindset problem, not one of
genuine lacking.  Linux is what it is; if you want to use it
successfully, and you're not familiar with it, you're probably going
to have to be willing to think differently about it than you've
thought about other operating systems.  But the answers are all there
already, for the most part.

- -- 
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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Bill Mullen]

On Wed, 13 Feb 2002, RABNUD wrote:

>
> At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:
>
> >I''ll toss around ideas with anyone, or walk them through an install or
> >whatever ... but I won''t make it sound easy. It isn''t. But it''s
> >doable, and it can become easier. It''s just more different than they
> >expected - because it''s better. :)<
>
> All this resistance to creating a cli based help/educate/rescue document
> browser? Never mind, I like the GUI idea better where is that Win98
> install CD.

All this resistance to actually opening a book or asking for help before
tackling a task in a completely unfamiliar environment? I can see you on
Christmas Eve, fussing and cussing deep into the night while steadfastly
refusing to look at the directions for the bike you're assembling ...
"Why doesn't this part tell me where it goes?" "It can't possibly need all
these gears, can it?" ... :)

-- 

Bill Mullen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Feb 13, 2002


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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Rich C]

- Original Message -
From: "Ken D'Ambrosio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Rich C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "GNHLUG" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org


> On Wed, 2002-02-13 at 17:45, Rich C wrote:
>
> > Right, the man pages are a reference work. That's the way I have always
> > considered them. You don't start reading the reference section of a
> > programmers manual to learn a new language, do you? Of course not. Man
pages
> > are NOT a help system. For the CLI, there IS NO HELP SYSTEM. It's as
simple
> > as that.
>
> Okay, I'll bite: VMS's help was good, but it wasn't like it was amazing
> or anything.  Fairly often, I had to hit the proverbial "documentation
> wall": that stack o' VMS manuals that took up a whole damn table.  If
> man pages == "NO HELP SYSTEM", then what *WOULD* you consider a help
> system?  I know that MS's "help", as convenient as it may be to hit F1,
> rarely helps me... whereas man pages usually do, and almost always point
> me in the right direction -- something that MS rarely does.  Bottom
> line: what do you want for help?  An AI assistant to help you with
> everything?  If so, I've got some bad news for you...
>

You're right, VMS's help system wasn't amazing. The thing that VMS had going
for it IMO is that it had, in addition to the help system, mostly "english
word" commands. You could do help, see a list of commands, get a pretty good
idea of which one you were looking for (COPY did copying, DIRectory did a
directory, BACKUP did backups.) From there you could drill down to what you
wanted. With UNIX, even if you got a list of commands, which one does
backups? "tar"? how is a newbie supposed to know that? (So then why doesn't
"feather" do restores?)

What is needed in a help system is something like what VMS had, but for
subject keywords like backup, restore, copy, directory, and stuff like that.
The help system doesn't really have to do much more than reference the
proper command to use, and say "Oh, you want to copy something? Well, if
it's just a file or two, see "cp." If it's an entire directory structure,
see "tar." If you want to copy a partition or disk, see "dd." Then the man
page can take over.

Rich Cloutier
President, C*O
SYSTEM SUPPORT SERVICES
www.sysupport.com



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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Rich C]

- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Greg Kettmann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Mansur, Warren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
"Ray Bowles" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Bruce Dawson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org


>
> In a message dated: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 19:48:49 EST
> Greg Kettmann said:
>
> >Sorry to pipe in, but I must.  The fact is that the learning / use curve
of
> >Linux, particularly compared to Windows, is very high.
>
> Yes, that's absolutely true.  But look at the reason why!  What were
> they each designed to do?
>
> Windows designed from the outset to be a SINGLE user system
> primarily for office suite use.  Every other use of
> Windows is a side benefit or add-on usage.
>
> UNIX designed from the outset to be a multi-tasking,
> multi-user SERVER that can do ANYTHING.
>

Yes but so was VMS, and as someone else mentioned, they had an excellent
help system. The two are not mutually exclusive. It's just that VMS was
developed in a structured environment, whereas Linux was not? What does this
mean? It simply proves the point that programmers don't like to do
documentation. :oP

> By nature you ought to expect UNIX and by extension, Linux, to be
> more complicated.  UNIX was never meant to be a desktop OS, it was
> designed in the days before anyone could ever conceive of such a
> thing!
>
> >They often lack real world examples as well.
>
> Keep in mind, 'man' stands for 'manual', which is short for
> "Reference Manual"  Show me any reference manual which contains a
> variety of real world examples.  Does Gray's Anatomy have a "real
> world example" of how to remove a kidney?  No, it's a reference,
> that's it, plain and simple.  You want real world examples, you get a
> HOWTO book with pictures and explanations.

Right, the man pages are a reference work. That's the way I have always
considered them. You don't start reading the reference section of a
programmers manual to learn a new language, do you? Of course not. Man pages
are NOT a help system. For the CLI, there IS NO HELP SYSTEM. It's as simple
as that.

[snip rest of stuff I don't care to comment on]

Rich Cloutier
President, C*O
SYSTEM SUPPORT SERVICES
www.sysupport.com



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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[plussier]

In a message dated: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 19:48:49 EST
Greg Kettmann said:

>Sorry to pipe in, but I must.  The fact is that the learning / use curve of
>Linux, particularly compared to Windows, is very high.

Yes, that's absolutely true.  But look at the reason why!  What were 
they each designed to do?

Windows designed from the outset to be a SINGLE user system
primarily for office suite use.  Every other use of 
Windows is a side benefit or add-on usage.

UNIXdesigned from the outset to be a multi-tasking,
multi-user SERVER that can do ANYTHING.

By nature you ought to expect UNIX and by extension, Linux, to be 
more complicated.  UNIX was never meant to be a desktop OS, it was 
designed in the days before anyone could ever conceive of such a 
thing!

>They often lack real world examples as well.

Keep in mind, 'man' stands for 'manual', which is short for 
"Reference Manual"  Show me any reference manual which contains a 
variety of real world examples.  Does Gray's Anatomy have a "real 
world example" of how to remove a kidney?  No, it's a reference, 
that's it, plain and simple.  You want real world examples, you get a 
HOWTO book with pictures and explanations.

> This can be very imposing to the new user.

They're not meant for the new user, they're meant for someone who 
knows what they're doing, but needs a quick reference.

>The response "well they obviously didn't read the man man" is just plain
>stupid and completely misses the point

Why?  The point was if they had read the man man page it clearly 
explains HOW to read man pages.  Had they done this, they would 
clearly have understood that all the options to tar that were 
confusing them were in fact *all* the OPTIONS to tar.  Their problem 
directly stemmed from the fact that they didn't know HOW to read a 
man page, and if they had read the man man page they would now know 
how!

Once you know HOW to read the man pages, they suddenly become your 
best friend, and you suddenly realize you don't need to ask a lot of 
questions, because ultimately, the answers are right there waiting 
for you.  Until you learn how to read them though, you're doomed to a 
life of confusion and frustration.

>the how-to's in the LDP".  The point is the average newbie doesn't have a
>clue about these things.  That's the definition of a newbie.

And that's why this list exists.  Newbies come to us, and we help 
explain.  Sure, a lot of times we'll get questions and we'll answer 
with "read the man page".  A lot of people take exception to that 
answer, but IMO, there's nothing wrong with it.  If you're not 
willing to learn, then why are you here and why are you trying to use 
Linux?  Most of the time reading the man page will solve your problem.
And you know, the funny thing is, I've never seen someone go away, 
read the man page, come back, say, "Okay, RTFM'ed and still don't get 
it!" and not end up getting helped.  Never!  That's the learning 
experience in action.  Prove you're willing to try and we'll kill 
ourselves trying to help you.

I can't count the number of times I've seen people submit scripts for 
some one that I know weren't whipped up in 20 seconds.  Many of us 
have spent hours and hours of either our own time or even our 
employers time trying to help newbies.  But we won't lift a finger if 
the person doesn't prove themselves worthy of that time and effort.

We "experts" didn't get to be experts because it was easy, we got to 
be experts because we persevered.  If a "newbie" wants to become an 
expert, they will have to persevere as well.

>Now, conversely I'm not suggesting that these newbies become instant
>sysadmins.  Absolutely there is a place, and a need, for people and
>documentation for those well versed in Linux.  So, I understand where those
>with a great deal of experience are coming from.  However, I've got twenty
>books here.

See that's the problem.  You have 20 books.  Why do you have 20 
books?  What are they all on?  What do you need to know that requires 
20 books?  You know how many books I have on Linux System 
administration?  1.  That's it.  1 small, concise book.

I have lots of other books, but none of them are critical to the 
administration of the system.  I have books on apache, probably 8 or 
so on perl, a few on C, 3 on Samba, and who knows what else.  You 
know how many I ever look at on even a monthly basis?  None of them.
Every now and then I'll pull one down if I have a question on a 
specific subject matter, but for sysadmin stuff, I have 1.  And 
that's all you need too.

>I'm only a casual user of Linux and  I don't use it day in and
>day out but I use it as often as I can.

Maybe you should use it more?  Way back when someone told me I needed 
to use Emacs.  I tried to use Emacs but couldn't figure it out.  I 
would use 'vi' for almost everything, and when I had a spare moment, 
I'd try to use 

Re: Newbie article...

[plussier]

In a message dated: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:37:41 EST
Bill Sconce said:


>Truly so.  And the man pages have no index;

Why do people keep saying this?  Has no one ever used 'whatis', 
'apropos', or 'man -k'?   What more of an index do you need?

I'm not trying to be a pain the butt, condescending, or arrogant, but 
everything you need for the most part is there in the man pages.  If 
those don't do it for you, there are countless books out there, many 
of them on-line via the web, and almost as many on the very installation
CDs for your distro (all viewable under ANY OS ).

It's already been stated that Linux, as a UNIX variant, is not 
Windows or MacOS.  It's not the good old days of DOS 2.0 where there 
were only a dozen or so commands.  This is a real, live, honest to 
goodness, muti-tasking, mutli-user operating systems which has been 
developed over a period of 30 YEARS!  How can anyone realisticly 
expect to wrap their head around all of that in a short period of 
time?

I'm sorry, it can't be done.  I feel your pain as a newbie or 
neophyte, or novice, or newcomer to Linux.  But if don't want the 
thrill and excitement of constant learning and mastery of an OS, then 
don't use it, it's that simple.

The media and a lot of individuals keep asking "Doesn't Linux *want* 
to own the desktop? Don't they *want* people to use their system?", 
etc.  Well let me break this you, we don't really care whether you do 
or not.  If you do, great, we'll help you.  If don't, great, have a 
nice life with your other OS and we'll see you around.

See, for many of us, Linux already owns the only desktop that 
matters, our own.  And much past that, we don't care.  We're not out 
to conquer the world and beat Microsoft (contrary to what the media 
says), we're out to get a job done. That's it, end of story.
Linux helps us get that job done, whatever it is, better than Microsoft does.

So, the reason you find Linux, or any UNIX variant difficult to 
master is because is it is.  It's a complex, convoluted, 
contradictory amalgamation of ideas, theories, and experiments, often 
times gone horribly awry.  It's the absolute worst environment there 
is for computing, except for all the rest.  And we love it!

Thanks, I'm done ranting now :)
-- 

Seeya,
Paul



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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[RABNUD]

At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:

This list is only accessed by a box which can surf, a crashed box
usually requires expert skill to surf - you got that far...

But lets not lose track of the goal because step 2 fails... we need only
2 more steps!!

Where does this concept fail Is it off by megabytes or off by
gigabytes?

I''m thinking a few megabytes gets even X back to going, and as newbies
expect reinstallation (as would I), then the megabytes of "X
resurrecting documents" reduces to a few k bytes of "backup/restore/
reinstall branching".

That means we need to consider whether it would be better to teach us
newbies (via the help/rescue/educate gizmo) how to backup critical
config documents (to floppy) first, then teach us to rescue the crashed
box based on restoring those dreaded backups. Yup, thats within *nix''
ability.

And... that kind of help could take place without much effort on the
help/rescue mechanism, surely!

Admittedly, it requires diligence on the part of the newbie to even
backup anything in the first place. but it might actually work!
Making a tar or gzip of key config files, then saving them to
floppies what a concept!!! First lesson in rescuing via backups
would thus be to, um drive the point home when the newbie rescues their
crashed OS on the very first restore!

The help/rescue/educate mechanism whets their appetite with a few easy
lessons in teaching them tarring or bzipping skills at the cli.

I really like it!

Good Idea!

What would you suggest next??

Don''t let me scare you away!!

I''ll trust a forum once more ;-)

Gotta run.



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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[RABNUD]

At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:

>what is it exactly that you want to learn NEXT?I can tell you how I got
started with Linux. I was taking Unix System Administrationadministering
Unix-like systems, Linux included, hasn''t really changed all that much
on a fundamental level, in the 30 years it''s
been around.<

And for the last 8 years, this (and other M$) newbie has seen only GUI,
and only from M$. *nix vs M$ is 2 vastly different worlds, and admin is
not allowed over there. Newbies do not know they need to read about
something like this.

Get my suggested help structure working teach us at the CLI, use
brain dead launch commands... load a document, then first teach CLI
skills, then load another document, teach rescue skills, then backup,
then...

All at a minimal kernel, floppy based level.



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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Michael Costolo]

I think you're missing the point.

There are always people around to help out in a crisis (this list is a perfect
example).  If your system is crashed and you are a newbie, you're probably going to
have to get an expert to help.  I don't think that you will find that, for example,
X will always crash for a single reason or that even reinstalling it will
necessarily solve what is wrong.  Therefore, even a command line
"help/educate/rescue document browser" probably won't be the sort of help you seem
to belive it to be because it would have to contain an IMMENSE amount of information
that the new user would have to sift through, and then we're back to the "man tar"
example - too much information.  

I just think premise behind your proposal has flaws, sorry.

-Mike-

--- RABNUD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:
> 
> >I''ll toss around ideas with anyone, or walk them through an install or
> whatever ... but I won''t make it sound easy. It isn''t. But it''s
> doable, and it can become easier. It''s just more different than they
> expected - because it''s better. :)<
> 
> All this resistance to creating a cli based help/educate/rescue document
> browser? Never mind, I like the GUI idea better where is that Win98
> install CD.

=
Michael Costolo
-
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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[RABNUD]

At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:

Getting warmer!



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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[RABNUD]

At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:

Ah! thats fine, I just got confused since the 2 LUGs webpages share a
common GUI.

Fortunately, I had registered here/there (where am I??) a few weeks ago,
so I could also reply *there*.

BTW: Newbies would know the difference between the 2 sites? Would not be
confused by the common GUI? Would know that they had even switched
sites???
One Logo is the whole visual difference!

The things I gotta do to make the world safe and friendly for my beloved
fellow newbies. LOL!!



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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[RABNUD]

At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:

>I''ll toss around ideas with anyone, or walk them through an install or
whatever ... but I won''t make it sound easy. It isn''t. But it''s
doable, and it can become easier. It''s just more different than they
expected - because it''s better. :)<

All this resistance to creating a cli based help/educate/rescue document
browser? Never mind, I like the GUI idea better where is that Win98
install CD.



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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Rodent of Unusual Size]

RABNUD wrote:
> 
> A minimal system should still provide help for a newbie

The first time I surreptitiously sat down at a VMS screen, the only
command I could think to type was 'help'.  And the response was so
complete that I instantly fell in love.  Theretofore my experience
with online assistants had been with those afforded by NOS and
a lobotomised PDP-15.
-- 
#kenP-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist  http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"

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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[RABNUD]

At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:

>They''ve worked great for over 30 yearsAt one time I was a newbie and
didn''t have a clue about Unix, but I got through by reading man pages,
asking questions on mailing lists and usenet, and surfing the web.<

And behind you there was a functional (not crashed) system!!! The common
home desktop PC user has a crashed box when they need help!! These
people are GUI only, and when the GUI is down, or the Internet access is
trashed, what next? M$ says: Reinstall me!!



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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[RABNUD]

At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:

Try launching a cli email client when you don''t know one exists, try
connecting to a POP3 server when you think POP is a drink, try printing
email messages when the xserver is down and you never printed from a DOS
prompt most M$ people I know can''t run a cli.

A minimal system should still provide help for a newbie, IMHO, but
diffing anf grepping are learned skills; the wet-behind-the-ears newbie
shouldn''t need to already know that when he needs help for the first
crash. Yes, you can expect them to remember a certain directory (ahem
"Folder") and a certain command Helpcrashed. Something which tells
them if you have crashed X, load this document (doc name here) and
there you read: to reinstall X, you type: tar -xzvf X.3_22.tar Whatever
- I''m a newbie..

Then the user drops to a cli or switches terminals and tar -xzvf
X.3_22.tar
and he watches the gears spin. Psst: (whisper) they just learned
something and quietly gained confidence in the cli aspect of Linux
.




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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[RABNUD]

At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:

Installed Linuxes >40 times. Success (relative success) only came via
GUI installs: Slackware once got to 640 x 480 1 bit color, and since I
wasn''t already an X Expert Back to Mandrake 8.1 I went.
Before I went back to Mandrake, no CLI help system was worth anything.
Which man do I want?
No index. Drat.
man 8?
man?
man Xf86Config?
man XF86config?
MAN XFree86?
man xf86Config?
man XDM?
then when I read whatever man was the right one...
Huh, I wanted man S3Server?
No index. No sensible structure. Obfuscation (sorry, thats my word of
the day). By the time I got done reading the wrong man pages, I saw an
hour had passed my install takes only 15 minutes more than that
hour, and at least that was functional.

You need to teach us administration and must wean us into it gently. The
local folder/floppy concept could be very usefu, there.

>You think Windows Help system is useful? It may be THERE, but there''s
nothing substantive in it, so what good is it?My solution: get someone
to help you install the thing at least!
President, C*O
SYSTEM SUPPORT SERVICES<

I am newbie - you are evidently not. Once you learn the cli, it''s all
so very simple? Nah. The common home desktop PC user knows nothing about
"which man page tells them the solution to their problem". And they have
not one single clue about cli. No knowledge. No clues. No indices.

Really - is it that my request is out of line? A simple index browser?
Or maybe a non gui based browser which can load rescue docs, or can surf
linkable help structures.. But still a cli device.
If RPM can have a dependancy tree, and HTML can link, make the
dependancy tree concept linkable.

Yeah, I know there are higher end apps for this, but we are crashed,
remember? No X, no cli familiarity either.

I know it can be done!!




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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Derek D. Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

At some point hitherto, Derek D. Martin hath spake thusly:
> I'm not familiar with any of the others.  In print, you might also
> look for I'Reilly's "Running Linux" and/or "Linux Unleashed" which I
> think is a SAMS publication, but I'm not sure. 

And how could I forget to mention Evi Nemeth's wonderful "Unix System
Administration Handbook" which now covers Linux (but focuses on Red
Hat).  She will soon be releasing a Linux-specific version of the book
as well, though it's still being reviewed now, so it may be a while
before it's out.  :)

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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[RABNUD]

At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:

>you only type what they tell you toRunning a Linux box means you are
your own sysadmin. This is something
that you don''t get so much with some other operating systemsyou will
inevitably have to understand the response from "man tar."But I still
think the attempt to assemble a document/executable program that goes
over every fine detail of starting out in Linux is unreasonableWhereas
books
don''t require X or a mouse and you can access them offline 100% of the
time. From
what I recall of the article, they fit all of the author''s needs.<

I tried to include a controlled minimum CLI for the newbie to use to get
it all started (wink wink)!

Seriously, though, M$ hates giving PC users a choice, demonstrated many
times over. That has both conditioned PC users and has restricted them
from twiddling the clockworks - good and bad.




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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Derek D. Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

At some point hitherto, RABNUD hath spake thusly:
> Sheepishly I admit - I have taken a class in "Intro to Unix" - I can
> grep, after a limited fashion, but as a user I''m still a newbie. But
> lets not even talk about cron, at, cups, NICs etc. 

Well, good documentation abounds...  You say you've taken an intro to
Unix class, so you've no doubt been exposed to a variety of topics,
such as file manipulation commands (cp, mv, ln, etc.), one or more of
the most common editors (vi, emacs, ed/ex/sed), and probably at least
introduced to some of the more useful utilities (mail, grep, awk,
script, etc.), right?

So, what is it exactly that you want to learn NEXT?  I think we can
probably help you better if you give us an idea of what you're looking
for...

Remember, we were all newbies once.  :)  I can tell you how I got
started with Linux.  I was taking Unix System Administration at U-Mass
Lowell.  The instructor mentioned Linux and FreeBSD as free Unixes
that we might be interested in investigating.  So I admit I had a head
start, in that I was already learning about how to administer Unix
systems when I first began mucking with Linux.

However, there were a lot of great resources, even back then.
linuxdoc.org is your friend. :) look in the "Guides"
section... therein you should find a few of the books that got me
started, including Lars Werzenius's "Linux System Administrators'
Guide," and "Linux Network Administrator's Guide" by Olaf Kirsch,
which you can also get in print by O'Reilly Associates, if you can
find it...  It may be out of print.

These books are old, and you should be forewarned that some of the
information there may be a little out of date.  For the most part
though, administering Unix-like systems, Linux included, hasn't really
changed all that much on a fundamental level, in the 30 years it's
been around. 

There are a few other guides there that you might find helpful, though
I'm not familiar with any of the others.  In print, you might also
look for I'Reilly's "Running Linux" and/or "Linux Unleashed" which I
think is a SAMS publication, but I'm not sure.  These are both pretty
good, though in areas where they are distribution-specific, they tend
to cover Red Hat.  Since it sounds like you're running Mandrake, you
might instead look for a Mandrake-oriented book.  I don't run
Mandrake, and haven't been in the market for a Linux system admin type
book for quite some time, so I can't really comment on what might be
more appropriate in that regard.

Hope that helps.

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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[RABNUD]

At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:

Sheepishly I admit - I have taken a class in "Intro to Unix" - I can
grep, after a limited fashion, but as a user I''m still a newbie. But
lets not even talk about cron, at, cups, NICs etc. In fact, I''ve a bone
to pick with Mandrake regarding default cron jobs

But you see the point, a ray of hope in a clouded LUG!

You mentioned you can install (and that implies you could configure)
Apache? The common home PC users I know do not serve HTML, nor FTP, nor
do they administer the bazillion possible ports which can be opened via
a network hacker. what a way to deflate my initially optimistic
impression!

Anyway, this is way out of hand. You people were looking for something
to gnaw on, maybe??

I admit my frustration came through, but nobody posted anything which
looked like "I''m recently separated from M$ and I really have no
idea" The few posts I read were all from people who appear to have
far too long ago left the memory of M$ behind I feel no one would
relate. Especially those who have never M$''d So many here are, um,
dried up, without relevance to the M$ user.

Show us a friendly and familiar way is all I asked; the LUG left me with
no avenue but to post in the News area. And it cross posted out of
Centralug and into GNHLUG what fun!



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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Michael Costolo]

Every manual is fine.  Some are just finer than others ;)

-Mike-

--- RABNUD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:
> 
> Howdy!
> 
> Let me say right off that the moderators will certainly edit this post -
> with a huge grin!!
> 
> (Hints of an online message forum leap to the fore)
> 
> >There is no shortage of printed material at
> any self respecting bookstore on any particular flavor/distro of LinuxIt
> would certainly be nice if there was some magical place/programbut as
> with all other things
> in life, with knowledge comes power
> would never have attempted to
> change the head gasket in my father''s engine without some
> understandingdigestabilityfine manuals can make all the difference<
> 
> Hmmm You seem pretty wise ;-), Which is the finest manual?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
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Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[RABNUD]

At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:

Howdy!

Let me say right off that the moderators will certainly edit this post -
with a huge grin!!

(Hints of an online message forum leap to the fore)

>There is no shortage of printed material at
any self respecting bookstore on any particular flavor/distro of LinuxIt
would certainly be nice if there was some magical place/programbut as
with all other things
in life, with knowledge comes power
would never have attempted to
change the head gasket in my father''s engine without some
understandingdigestabilityfine manuals can make all the difference<

Hmmm You seem pretty wise ;-), Which is the finest manual?




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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Bill Mullen]

On Tue, 12 Feb 2002, Derek D. Martin wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> At some point hitherto, Greg Kettmann hath spake thusly:
> > It has always amazed me just how recalcitrant the Linux community is about
> > making the system easier to use.  Note that I didn't say less complex.  Just
> > some way to lower the entry bar.
>
> I agree to some degree, and I think it wouldn't be that hard to pull
> off either.  I think all that's really needed is some nice GUI for
> installing applications and (this part's key, IMO) automatically
> creating desktop menus/shortcuts for both KDE and Gnome, when it's
> clear that one or both of those are available.

Mandrake has focused on this very thing in recent distro development:
their GUI install routinely wins over reviewers that compare it to the
other distros for "newbie-friendliness", their GUI RPM manager
("rpmdrake") is reasonably easy to get the hang of, especially for
security updates, and their shared menu system is available in every
WM/desktop environment on the box - most all of the Mandrake-specific RPMs
(*mdk.rpm) update this, and you can add to it using "menudrake".

Do any of these enhancements obviate the need for picking up a good Linux
book at some point, and/or keeping a Linux veteran/sensei near at hand at
install time? No. Nor will next year's versions. That's just the way it is.

The analogy to auto mechanics has been made, but how many of us
actually taught ourselves how to drive the car in the first place? And
despite the manufacturer's best efforts at making cars as easy to control
as possible, this won't change soon either. Nor should it.

The problem seems to me to be that while we all see the value in getting
some outside assistance/advice with things like learning how to drive, or
to fill out tax returns, or to perform any other routine task whose
initial complexity and learning curve are well known, many people seem to
approach installing and using Linux for the first time as if their vast,
hard-won experience in the use of (Windows/Macs/Playstations/Garage Door
Openers) has utterly prepared them for all they could encounter. And,
sooner or later, this blind faith is found to be insufficient.

As Ben Scott pointed out in a recent post, *NIX is by design a different
approach to computing as well as an o/s, and those of us who sing its
praises to all who will listen - and in that department, just call me
"Johnny Kernelseed" :) - must not fail to make clear that it will require
some measure of effort at the outset, and to explain what human and
printed resources are available ... and *strongly* encourage their use.

Of those who come to Linux from a commercial GUI o/s, most have installed
and uninstalled many programs, and often a device or three along the way,
in the other o/s; with this they are already comfortable. They fancy the
transition to doing all the same things in Linux as being merely an exotic
little challenge on the order of renting a car in England and driving on
the left for a while. Well, it ain't, that's for sure. Now if you went
over there and rented a Gulfstream, on the other hand ... :)

While distros such as Mandrake are to be lauded for their efforts at
"lowering the bar" for the novice, it is incumbent upon us to explain why
the bar's height is necessary, and to be there to give the needed leg up.
As Bill Sconce pointed out, we need more "Elmers". Newbies can call me if
they want; I'll toss around ideas with anyone, or walk them through an
install or whatever ... but I won't make it sound easy. It isn't. But
it's doable, and it can become easier. It's just more different than they
expected - because it's better. :)

-- 

Bill Mullen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Feb 12, 2002



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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Ray Bowles]

*** On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 5:43pm Derek D. Martin shared this with the class::

> 
> That's great!  But it's really hard to do that in an e-mail...   
>  
> And of course they learn less by having you do it for them, if they
> are at all like most people.

I find that not to be the case. In my example of the kid that moved to FL
and helped someelse install a box. The kid that moved was a musican by
trade and in no way would qualify as a PC geek. But he got it installed
and then began learning about whatever app it was he was most interested
in to begin with and eventually absorbed enough knowlege to do an install
himself. Once people gain a little confidence their outlook and
determination levels change dramatically.

Ray

--
Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path
and leave a trail.


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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Michael Costolo]

I don't think that anyone has tried to imply that any single source, be it 
books, man pages, etc., was the key to success with Linux.  The article in 
discussion here touched on the deficiencies of man pages as well as other 
non-indexed references, command line or other.  

One could argue that, for the example of man pages, reading "man man" would 
certainly help one to better digest the results of the apparently 
quintessential example "man tar."  Whether or not a particular man page 
presents a valuable solution to a problem is not the same as whether the user 
has done his/her best at understanding the information readily available.  So 
I would argue contrary to your post that it needing to read man man 
*doesn't*miss the point.  If you make the decision to operate any sort of 
*NIX computer, at least learn how to read man pages.  It simply "comes with 
the territory" so to speak.

Secondly, books do address very well the exasperations of the article's 
author in that they are indexed and generally contain real-world examples.  
And, since books are generally written as distribution specific, they address 
the obfuscation issue quite directly.  They don't require X or a mouse 
either, a definite plus.

But don't get me wrong about asking one's peers for help.  It is an absolute 
necessity as there is no amount of documentation that will ever exist that 
will address without omission the difficulties one may face with Linux.  But 
a casual reading of USENET shows that posters who have made some attempt to 
do *something* before asking for help get a better response.  The fact that 
there is a community of Linux users and groups such as this have made Linux 
what it is today.  That point should not be lost.

Finally, to ask why Linux developers don't make the system more easy to use 
begs the question.  Obviously if it was difficult to them, they would change 
it.  I understand that the original release of the Linux kernel required a 
good deal of knowledge just to get it to compile.  And, from what I've read, 
the early versions of Slackware were anything but "user friendly" regarding 
installation.  So I think that in 10 years things have certainly come toward 
the way of user-friendlyness, or ease of use.  But part of the draw of 
running your own Linux box is that it does make you think.  It forces you to 
learn something about the inner workings of the computational wonder you have 
at your fingertips.  Those who come searching for a mindless I/O that is 
nothing but eye candy can probably be happily directed elsewhere.

-Mike-

On Wednesday 13 February 2002 12:48 am, Greg Kettmann wrote:
 Sorry to pipe in, but I must.  The fact is that the learning / use curve of
 Linux, particularly compared to Windows, is very high.  I completely agree
 that the man pages are confusing.  They often lack real world examples as
 well.  This can be very imposing to the new user.  The response "well they
 obviously didn't read the man man" is just plain stupid and completely
 misses the point (sorry, no offense to whomever posted that remark, it's
 very a very typical response).  It's as far off base as "they didn't read
 the how-to's in the LDP".  The point is the average newbie doesn't have a
 clue about these things.  That's the definition of a newbie.

 Now, conversely I'm not suggesting that these newbies become instant
 sysadmins.  Absolutely there is a place, and a need, for people and
 documentation for those well versed in Linux.  So, I understand where those
 with a great deal of experience are coming from.  However, I've got twenty
 books here.  I'm only a casual user of Linux and  I don't use it day in and
 day out but I use it as often as I can.  It can be very, very difficult to
 remember exact commands and syntax and most of the time the man pages do
 little to clear things up.  They do an excellent job of giving me the full
 breadth of a command but are far weaker for telling me how to make something
 work.  The books do a far better job but it's awkward and difficult to
 always have the books around.  Also, although man pages are in the same
 general format some are pretty good.  Some are... ummm, not as good :-)

 It has always amazed me just how recalcitrant the Linux community is about
 making the system easier to use.  Note that I didn't say less complex.  Just
 some way to lower the entry bar.  Many people, such as myself, learn by
 getting their hands dirty.  If I screw it up too badly I just reinstall.
 Despite a great deal of reading I've found very little in the way of good
 beginners guides (I've read quite a few weak or poor beginners guides) and
 certainly nothing built into the system.

 So, any newbies out there just keep reading and learning.  This list gets
 fairly interesting sometimes but I don't thin

Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Derek D. Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

At some point hitherto, Greg Kettmann hath spake thusly:
> It has always amazed me just how recalcitrant the Linux community is about
> making the system easier to use.  Note that I didn't say less complex.  Just
> some way to lower the entry bar.

I agree to some degree, and I think it wouldn't be that hard to pull
off either.  I think all that's really needed is some nice GUI for
installing applications and (this part's key, IMO) automatically
creating desktop menus/shortcuts for both KDE and Gnome, when it's
clear that one or both of those are available.

Loki has a nice install interface, IMO, and I really think the desktop
icon thing is an easy problem to solve, though largely up to the
application people to provide...

As for installation issues, I've installed both Red Hat and Windows
recently, and I really do find that RH is much faster and easier to
install.  But then, I'm not a newbie.

- -- 
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GnuPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D
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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Greg Kettmann]

Sorry to pipe in, but I must.  The fact is that the learning / use curve of
Linux, particularly compared to Windows, is very high.  I completely agree
that the man pages are confusing.  They often lack real world examples as
well.  This can be very imposing to the new user.  The response "well they
obviously didn't read the man man" is just plain stupid and completely
misses the point (sorry, no offense to whomever posted that remark, it's
very a very typical response).  It's as far off base as "they didn't read
the how-to's in the LDP".  The point is the average newbie doesn't have a
clue about these things.  That's the definition of a newbie.

Now, conversely I'm not suggesting that these newbies become instant
sysadmins.  Absolutely there is a place, and a need, for people and
documentation for those well versed in Linux.  So, I understand where those
with a great deal of experience are coming from.  However, I've got twenty
books here.  I'm only a casual user of Linux and  I don't use it day in and
day out but I use it as often as I can.  It can be very, very difficult to
remember exact commands and syntax and most of the time the man pages do
little to clear things up.  They do an excellent job of giving me the full
breadth of a command but are far weaker for telling me how to make something
work.  The books do a far better job but it's awkward and difficult to
always have the books around.  Also, although man pages are in the same
general format some are pretty good.  Some are... ummm, not as good :-)

It has always amazed me just how recalcitrant the Linux community is about
making the system easier to use.  Note that I didn't say less complex.  Just
some way to lower the entry bar.  Many people, such as myself, learn by
getting their hands dirty.  If I screw it up too badly I just reinstall.
Despite a great deal of reading I've found very little in the way of good
beginners guides (I've read quite a few weak or poor beginners guides) and
certainly nothing built into the system.

So, any newbies out there just keep reading and learning.  This list gets
fairly interesting sometimes but I don't think I've ever seen a question go
by without someone answering it, no matter how difficult or simple.  In fact
I've seen some pretty amazing problems and concepts batted around here.
Some of the people on this list are really, really good.


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> In a message dated: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:08:21 EST
> "Mansur, Warren" said:
>
> >One problem I see with man pages is that they throw off the newbie user
> >by putting every possible option at the top.  If a new user sees this,
> >they will probably be as confused as ever:
>
> Well, yes, but I often find that people's problems with reading man
> pages is that they don't know how.  Why?  They never ran 'man man'
> which clearly states:
>
>The following conventions apply to  the  SYNOPSIS  section
>and can be used as a guide in other sections.
>
>bold text  type exactly as shown.
>italic textreplace with appropriate argument.
>[-abc] any or all arguments within [ ] are optional.
>
> So, for this one person reading the tar man page, all they needed to
> know was that all those things at the top were *options*.
>
> Every now and then I hear this argument that "man pages stink and there
> must be a better way!"
>
> Why?  They've worked great for over 30 years.  At one time I was a
> newbie and didn't have a clue about Unix, but I got through by
> reading man pages, asking questions on mailing lists and usenet, and
> surfing the web.  If I can do it, anyone can, as long as they're
> patient and willing to roll up their sleeves and read!
>
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Re: Newbie article...

[Karl J. Runge]

On Tue, 12 Feb 2002, Bill Sconce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Truly so.  And the man pages have no index;  
>

Not a full index, but man -k  (aka apropos(1)) and whatis(1)
are fairly useful for this.  No?

The gnu special: man -K  is slow (at least on my old HW) but I
guess technically acts as an index...


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Re: Newbie article...

[Bill Sconce]

I've been using Linux (with varying success, ya), since Yggdrasil days.

Everything which has been written here seems valid to me.  (Yes,
including the post which is latest as I write this, which is
essentially YARTFM (believe it or not.))

Among the sapient (IMO) comments:

Michael Bovee wrote:
> 3) Linux is not MacOS and its not Windows, and by the way its not
> your mother.  I think its cool that Linux is wild and free and
> continually developing, and I have wanted to be a part of that ever
> since the development of some linux-only research software that I
> couldn't have published a paper without. I really hope Linux is the
> future. 

Amen.



> Its just been too difficult to master by fiddling around.

Truly so.  And the man pages have no index;  I still wouldn't be able
to get a kernel to compile if not for Ben Scott's comments.

---

In the ham radio world there is, and has been since the very earliest
days, the concept of "Elmer".  Elmer is the older ham who takes the
newcomer (the term newbie had yet to be invented, and besides, hams
always prided themselves on avoiding condescension, whether in terminology
or in practice) and shows him the ropes - how to cut an antenna, how
to copy the code, how to solder,... and most importantly to a ham,
how to make that first, terrifying contact on the air.  

I don't know as much as most posters on this list.  But I've been an
Elmer.  I hereby offer to be an Elmer to some newbie:  call me.  An
evening breaking through the code of man pages (ugh) will do us both
good.  Can't be any tougher than Morse Code.

Perhaps I'm not the only one who would be willing to be an Elmer to
some newbie(*), either.

BTW, where is Center Barnstead?

Bill
N1BFK
603 654-2254


--
(*)  It's not as though a newbie was just some customer at
CompUSA, needing Revelation.  For example, the signature of
the original poster included:

"I'm a Linux Newbie, but I'm not a PC nor GUI newbie.
M$ has forgotten about the "user" in "graphical user
interface".  Fair enough: In return, I choose to forget M$."

She deserves better than "RTFM".  Doesn't she?

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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[plussier]

In a message dated: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:08:21 EST
"Mansur, Warren" said:

>One problem I see with man pages is that they throw off the newbie user
>by putting every possible option at the top.  If a new user sees this,
>they will probably be as confused as ever:

Well, yes, but I often find that people's problems with reading man 
pages is that they don't know how.  Why?  They never ran 'man man' 
which clearly states:

   The following conventions apply to  the  SYNOPSIS  section
   and can be used as a guide in other sections.

   bold text  type exactly as shown.
   italic textreplace with appropriate argument.
   [-abc] any or all arguments within [ ] are optional.


So, for this one person reading the tar man page, all they needed to 
know was that all those things at the top were *options*.

Every now and then I hear this argument that "man pages stink and there 
must be a better way!"

Why?  They've worked great for over 30 years.  At one time I was a 
newbie and didn't have a clue about Unix, but I got through by 
reading man pages, asking questions on mailing lists and usenet, and 
surfing the web.  If I can do it, anyone can, as long as they're 
patient and willing to roll up their sleeves and read!


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Re: Newbie article...

[Rich Payne]

Michael,

I would say that some of the challenges you face are arch 
specific (choosing to start on PPC). Now this isn't a criticism, but the 
problem you run into is that while there are probably a handleful of 
people on this list that can help you with doing X, booting a PPC machine 
is different from booting and i386, and anywhere you run into different 
hardware it gets difficult, if only because the number of people with the 
knowledge is less and the number of people developing for that arch is 
less.

Now, having said that, if it makes you feel any better I'm composing this 
on an Alpha (in Linux), my main workstation is an Alpha, and there's a 
SPARC across the room happily running Debian. 

--rdp

On Tue, 12 Feb 2002, Michael Bovee wrote:

> Well, as another newbie I guess I'll chime in here with a few 
> lighthearted comments.
> Bottom line -- its not easy being a newbie  ;0)
> 
> Its fun to hear something of what's going on for the experts on this 
> list, but most of the time I don't understand what is being 
> discussed. That's okay, its still a great way to pick up details that 
> DO matter to me as various threads develop.
> 
> My situation seems a bit more complicated as I jumped into Linux on 
> the Macintosh/PPC platform. I naively thought that Linux was Linux, 
> the same no matter where you go and all would be well.  It has been 
> only by the help of a couple expert friends that I was able to get 
> some basic things configured including screen res. And my friend 
> tells me that after we've been through a bunch of hassles, I probably 
> need to recompile X (or something) to get some essential research 
> software to draw plots on the screen correctly. Well, since we all 
> rely on *actual users* to figure out how to get things to work, this 
> is not surprising -- BUT for 75 bucks SuSE  claims to support my 
> specific machine (PowerBook G3) for a relatively painless install, 
> which it wasn't. Rich's comments ring true about getting help 
> installing.
> 
> As far as *free* is concerned, I have so far invested about $200 in 
> SuSE 7.1, then 7.3, a book on some Unix user basics, and just this 
> weekend a thick Que book on Using Linux. This is far more than I paid 
> for the even high priced Mac OS X, which INCLUDED the latest OS 9. 
> I'm not bitter about that, it is a fun learning experience but damn 
> this learning curve is STEEP  :0)  To be fair, I also have about 11 
> years of Mac experience under the belt, and I can troubleshoot and 
> fix almost anything on the Mac platform, but I never had to buy no 
> $50 dam book to start getting work done on the mac!  For me, the 
> following Linux issues remain --
> 
> 1) I still am not able to just boot Linux up and start getting work 
> done; too much of a paradigm shift. There must be some good tutorials 
> on the web for new users , but of all the sites I've visited I havent 
> found much that is explained in a way that makes sense to me. I keep 
> thinking at some point things will begin to fit into some zenlike big 
> picture, and then I think what if Linux is like some bizarro world 
> from a Terry Gilliam film where no, dammit, it doesn't HAVE to make 
> sense! (insert maniacal laughter here :0)
> 
> 2)  Still looking for some grand explanation to make sense of whats 
> in all those directories, and where I go if I want to see how 
> something is configured. This is where the concept of the installfest 
> could be extended to something more like counseling for frustrated 
> newbies!  Haha!
> 
> 3) Linux is not MacOS and its not Windows, and by the way its not 
> your mother.  I think its cool that Linux is wild and free and 
> continually developing, and I have wanted to be a part of that ever 
> since the development of some linux-only research software that I 
> couldn't have published a paper without. I really hope Linux is the 
> future. Its just been too difficult to master by fiddling around. 
> Back to the books!
> 
> --Michael
> 

-- 
Rich Payne
http://talisman.mv.com


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Re: Newbie article...

[Michael Bovee]

Well, as another newbie I guess I'll chime in here with a few 
lighthearted comments.
Bottom line -- its not easy being a newbie  ;0)

Its fun to hear something of what's going on for the experts on this 
list, but most of the time I don't understand what is being 
discussed. That's okay, its still a great way to pick up details that 
DO matter to me as various threads develop.

My situation seems a bit more complicated as I jumped into Linux on 
the Macintosh/PPC platform. I naively thought that Linux was Linux, 
the same no matter where you go and all would be well.  It has been 
only by the help of a couple expert friends that I was able to get 
some basic things configured including screen res. And my friend 
tells me that after we've been through a bunch of hassles, I probably 
need to recompile X (or something) to get some essential research 
software to draw plots on the screen correctly. Well, since we all 
rely on *actual users* to figure out how to get things to work, this 
is not surprising -- BUT for 75 bucks SuSE  claims to support my 
specific machine (PowerBook G3) for a relatively painless install, 
which it wasn't. Rich's comments ring true about getting help 
installing.

As far as *free* is concerned, I have so far invested about $200 in 
SuSE 7.1, then 7.3, a book on some Unix user basics, and just this 
weekend a thick Que book on Using Linux. This is far more than I paid 
for the even high priced Mac OS X, which INCLUDED the latest OS 9. 
I'm not bitter about that, it is a fun learning experience but damn 
this learning curve is STEEP  :0)  To be fair, I also have about 11 
years of Mac experience under the belt, and I can troubleshoot and 
fix almost anything on the Mac platform, but I never had to buy no 
$50 dam book to start getting work done on the mac!  For me, the 
following Linux issues remain --

1) I still am not able to just boot Linux up and start getting work 
done; too much of a paradigm shift. There must be some good tutorials 
on the web for new users , but of all the sites I've visited I havent 
found much that is explained in a way that makes sense to me. I keep 
thinking at some point things will begin to fit into some zenlike big 
picture, and then I think what if Linux is like some bizarro world 
from a Terry Gilliam film where no, dammit, it doesn't HAVE to make 
sense! (insert maniacal laughter here :0)

2)  Still looking for some grand explanation to make sense of whats 
in all those directories, and where I go if I want to see how 
something is configured. This is where the concept of the installfest 
could be extended to something more like counseling for frustrated 
newbies!  Haha!

3) Linux is not MacOS and its not Windows, and by the way its not 
your mother.  I think its cool that Linux is wild and free and 
continually developing, and I have wanted to be a part of that ever 
since the development of some linux-only research software that I 
couldn't have published a paper without. I really hope Linux is the 
future. Its just been too difficult to master by fiddling around. 
Back to the books!

--Michael
-- 
^^
Michael L. Bovee, Ph.D.
Postdoctoral Fellow
University of Vermont
Department of Biochemistry
B403 Given Building
Burlington, VT  05405-0068
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://biochem.uvm.edu
Lab   802-656-0345
FAX  802-862-8229
^^

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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Derek D. Martin]

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At some point hitherto, Ray Bowles hath spake thusly:
> have walked at least 6 of my friends through Linux installs,
> Bind/Apache/Sendmail/MySQL and other installs and never once did I say
> RTFM. 

That's great!  But it's really hard to do that in an e-mail...   
 
And of course they learn less by having you do it for them, if they
are at all like most people.

- -- 
Derek Martin   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Derek D. Martin]

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Hash: SHA1

At some point hitherto, Mansur, Warren hath spake thusly:
> I was actually on a newsgroup where someone had never user tar before.
> They read the man page, and after trying and trying to understand all
> the options they just got frustrated and posted to the newsgroup asking
> how to make a simple tar file or expand a simple tar file.

Here again, books are the answer.  They generally show you how to
perform the more common tasks, with fairly precise examples.  A great
book for this is Nemeth, et. al., Unix System Administrator's
Handbook.  It covers Linux, and they will soon be releasing a
Linux-specific version of the book.  :)

> Perhaps the most common uses could be displayed at the top and leave
> the more advanced uses for later on.

I understand your point, but might be inclined to disagree.  In my
experience, the most common usage of man pages is to look up some
option that you've forgotten.  Having that information closest to the
top is more efficient for finding it.  True, if you're new to a
particular command, the Synopsis section has a lot of information in
it that will be meaningless to you unless the command has reletively
few options which are perhaps somewhat self-explanatory, but if that's
the case just ignore the Synopsis section altogether until you've read
the rest of the man page.  

I usually read the description first, and then look for an examples
section, if one exists.  This section provides what you're talking
about.  Unfortunately, many man pages don't have such a section.  This
tends to be true of GNU software, which favors info over man pages
(don't get me started).

When I took my Intro to Unix course at UML, the instructor (Gerry
Poulin, who I think some of the DECies might know) told us the trick
to reading man pages is to learn how to read them.  The key is
understanding how the information is presented.  Read the sections
that are appropriate to what you're trying to learn, and skim (or
ignore) the rest.

> One advantage of man pages is being able to pipe them into other
> commands such as grep, whereas interactive help doesn't allow for pipes.

I'm not really sure this is an advantage...  You don't need to pipe
man pages into grep to search them.  On most Linux systems, `less' is
the default pager for man pages, and it is perfectly capable of
searching man pages.  For those who may not know, most of the vi key
commands that deal with navigation and searching work in less.  Of
course, you do need to know about the feature before you can use it...
This is where book learning (and reading man pages) comes in.

I would also like to point out that many distributions, and Red Hat in
particular, DO come with printed manuals that are aimed at the newbie.
I don't have a copy of them handy, but I remember them as being
oriented at the new user and fairly well done.  And for those who
didn't BUY Red Hat, the manuals are (or at least were at one time)
included on the CD in a reasonably intuitive directory (/docs
or some such, IIRC).  They can also be installed as rpms.  Or at least
they could last I still cared to have them... back around RH 6.1 IIRC.


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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Rich C]

Interesting. Very common set of problems.

The real problem is this:

What the heck is a newbie doing attempting to install a complex operating
system? Many new distros, particularly Red Hat and Mandrake, have very nice
GUI installation programs that work wonderfully, and install automatically
WHEN THEY WORK. The end result is a completely installed OS that can now be
used by the newbie to learn Linux (Mandrake puts many links on the desktop
to get help, from help files for the desktop environment, to help on the
web, to browsers for man pages.) But when they DON'T work, you're screwed
unless you know what you are doing.

The real issue is that the newbie COULDN'T INSTALL the OS, not that he
couldn't use it. What happens if a Windows installation bombs? Well, if the
GUI doesn't work because of a bad configuration or screwy drivers, guess
what? There IS NO COMMAND LINE to fall back on. He is dead in the water
(maybe he starts in safe mode, which is a waste because NOTHING WORKS in
safe mode and you can't see any of your configuration settings in safe
mode.) OK, what if it boots, and you can actually see a desktop, but some
piece of hardware like your modem or printer doesn't work? You think Windows
Help system is useful? It may be THERE, but there's nothing substantive in
it, so what good is it? You still either a) need to be an expert, or b) need
a book, or c) need to call your computer geek friend to help you.

If every computer came with Linux installed, and the Windows users had to
wipe the disk and install their favorite OS, the tables would be turned, I
assure you.

My solution: get someone to help you install the thing at least!

Rich Cloutier
President, C*O
SYSTEM SUPPORT SERVICES
www.sysupport.com


- Original Message -
From: "Bruce Dawson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 3:30 PM
Subject: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org


> What appears to be a rather frustrated newbie posted the following
> article at the CentraLUG web site:
>
> http://www.centralug.org/article.php?sid=37
>
>
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> with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body.
> *
>


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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Michael Costolo]

Yes, I think it is how we learn.  Break things, try to figure them out, and get help
when you need it.  But when you break something and someone else fixes it for you
(you only type what they tell you to), I think you miss out on the learning
experience.  Running a Linux box means you are your own sysadmin.  This is something
that you don't get so much with some other operating systems.  It's the whole "give
a man a fish/teach a man to fish" all over again.  If you really want to learn how
to run Linux, you will inevitably have to understand the response from "man tar." 
Yes it's confusing, and perhaps understanding it at day 1 is silly, but it should be
fairly high on the list.  Somewhere after "man man."

But I still think the attempt to assemble a document/executable program that goes
over every fine detail of starting out in Linux is unreasonable.  Whereas books
don't require X or a mouse and you can access them offline 100% of the time.  From
what I recall of the article, they fit all of the author's needs.

-Mike-

--- Ray Bowles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> *** On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 1:36pm Michael Costolo shared this with the class::
> 
> > I think that there is something to be said for arming yourself with as much book
> > knowledge as possible, especially when experience is lacking *before* you take
> on
> > something like a new operating system.  There is no shortage of printed material
> at
> > any self respecting bookstore on any particular flavor/distro of Linux. 
> Personally,
> > I picked up a 3 inch thick book on RH 6.0 a few years ago that is still the
> first
> > place I turn when I have questions or problems (and find a surprising amount of
> > answers).  Amazingly enough, it has an index, as do the vast majority of the
> other
> > books you may find on bookstore shelves.
> 
> True on book knowledge, but sometimes knowledge is like crack. ROFL :0 you
> need to give a newbie a couple of freebies and eventually they can't ask
> you 24/7 and a book is necessary.
> 
> > What is feasible, however, is to suggest that new users spend some real time
> > attempting to read and understand their new system instead of just brute-forcing
> > their way through it.  Publishers such as O'Reilly take great pains to make
> certain
> 
> Isn't that how we all got started as kids. breaking stuff and putting it
> back together with help from peers?
> 
> 
> Ray
> 
> --
> Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path
> and leave a trail.
> 


__
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Mark Fearer]

 In my opinion, SUN puts out a good series called BLUEPRINTS. Many times
it will compare and contrast differing OS's as examples, i.e., "if you're
an NT administrator and you know how to manage user group privilages, here
is how it is done in Solaris".
 I agree that there is an abundance of documentation out there from books,
trade mags, the web, coworkers, etc. No argument. But for all of those
MCSE's out there, I think that it would be cool if they had a way to
relate what they know to what they want to learn to do.
 my $0.02 on how to snag more market share.

Mark
 

On Tue, 12 Feb 2002, Michael Costolo wrote:
> I'm not so sure I agree.  I should preface the following with the fact that,
> although I am not newbie, I am certainly not an expert.
> I think that there is something to be said for arming yourself with as much book
> knowledge as possible, especially when experience is lacking *before* you take on
> something like a new operating system.  There is no shortage of printed material at
> any self respecting bookstore on any particular flavor/distro of Linux.  Personally,
> I picked up a 3 inch thick book on RH 6.0 a few years ago that is still the first
> place I turn when I have questions or problems (and find a surprising amount of
> answers).  Amazingly enough, it has an index, as do the vast majority of the other
> books you may find on bookstore shelves.
> It would certainly be nice if there was some magical place/program that had all of
> the answers, but, as evidenced by posts to this group, not even very experienced
> users will ever know *everything* about even a single distribution.  Consequently, I
> suppose such a project would always be lacking.
> What is feasible, however, is to suggest that new users spend some real time
> attempting to read and understand their new system instead of just brute-forcing
> their way through it.  Publishers such as O'Reilly take great pains to make certain
> that the digestability of their books meet certain standards, all for this reason.
> I understand the frustration of the article's author, but as with all other things
> in life, with knowledge comes power.  I certainly would never have attempted to
> change the head gasket in my father's engine without some understanding of what I
> would be facing (Honda never even attempted to provide any information in the
> owner's manual).  If you want to do it yourself, whether you are attempting to be
> your own sysadmin or car mechanic, fine manuals can make all the difference.  As
> long as you read them...
> 
> -Mike-
> 


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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Ray Bowles]

*** On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 1:36pm Michael Costolo shared this with the class::

> I think that there is something to be said for arming yourself with as much book
> knowledge as possible, especially when experience is lacking *before* you take on
> something like a new operating system.  There is no shortage of printed material at
> any self respecting bookstore on any particular flavor/distro of Linux.  Personally,
> I picked up a 3 inch thick book on RH 6.0 a few years ago that is still the first
> place I turn when I have questions or problems (and find a surprising amount of
> answers).  Amazingly enough, it has an index, as do the vast majority of the other
> books you may find on bookstore shelves.

True on book knowledge, but sometimes knowledge is like crack. ROFL :0 you
need to give a newbie a couple of freebies and eventually they can't ask
you 24/7 and a book is necessary.

> What is feasible, however, is to suggest that new users spend some real time
> attempting to read and understand their new system instead of just brute-forcing
> their way through it.  Publishers such as O'Reilly take great pains to make certain

Isn't that how we all got started as kids. breaking stuff and putting it
back together with help from peers?


Ray

--
Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path
and leave a trail.


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RE: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Ray Bowles]

*** On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 4:08pm Mansur, Warren shared this with the class::

> One advantage of man pages is being able to pipe them into other
> commands such as grep, whereas interactive help doesn't allow for pipes.

Don't forget the audience. would a newbie need to look at the man pages
for grep? ;) I think that is where a lot of advanced users go astray. I
remember when I first started...No one would give me a striaght
answer. All I would get is "man tar" for an answer. Call me stupid but I
have walked at least 6 of my friends through Linux installs,
Bind/Apache/Sendmail/MySQL and other installs and never once did I say
RTFM. It's all about being personal and helping one person at a
time. Eventually they will help someone and the virus you created will
spread. That's been my experience and I know that one of my friends help
someone in Florida when just a year ago he didn't even know what Linux
was.

Ray

--
Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path
and leave a trail.


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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Michael Costolo]

I'm not so sure I agree.  I should preface the following with the fact that,
although I am not newbie, I am certainly not an expert.

I think that there is something to be said for arming yourself with as much book
knowledge as possible, especially when experience is lacking *before* you take on
something like a new operating system.  There is no shortage of printed material at
any self respecting bookstore on any particular flavor/distro of Linux.  Personally,
I picked up a 3 inch thick book on RH 6.0 a few years ago that is still the first
place I turn when I have questions or problems (and find a surprising amount of
answers).  Amazingly enough, it has an index, as do the vast majority of the other
books you may find on bookstore shelves.

It would certainly be nice if there was some magical place/program that had all of
the answers, but, as evidenced by posts to this group, not even very experienced
users will ever know *everything* about even a single distribution.  Consequently, I
suppose such a project would always be lacking.

What is feasible, however, is to suggest that new users spend some real time
attempting to read and understand their new system instead of just brute-forcing
their way through it.  Publishers such as O'Reilly take great pains to make certain
that the digestability of their books meet certain standards, all for this reason.

I understand the frustration of the article's author, but as with all other things
in life, with knowledge comes power.  I certainly would never have attempted to
change the head gasket in my father's engine without some understanding of what I
would be facing (Honda never even attempted to provide any information in the
owner's manual).  If you want to do it yourself, whether you are attempting to be
your own sysadmin or car mechanic, fine manuals can make all the difference.  As
long as you read them...

-Mike-

--- Ray Bowles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> *** On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 3:30pm Bruce Dawson shared this with the class::
> 
> > What appears to be a rather frustrated newbie posted the following 
> > article at the CentraLUG web site:
> > 
> > http://www.centralug.org/article.php?sid=37
> 
> Anyone have ideas on how to help. I think he has a decent idea. Heck, if
> it came down to it and someone wrote the logic I would type the content.
> 
> Ray
> 
> --
> Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path
> and leave a trail.


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RE: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Mansur, Warren]

One problem I see with man pages is that they throw off the newbie user
by putting every possible option at the top.  If a new user sees this,
they will probably be as confused as ever:

tar  [  -  ]  A  --catenate --concatenate | c --create | d
   --diff --compare | r --append | t --list | u --update |  x
   -extract --get [ --atime-preserve ] [ -b, --block-size N ]
   [ -B, --read-full-blocks ]  [  -C,  --directory  DIR  ]  [
   --checkpoint ]  [ -f, --file [HOSTNAME:]F ] [ --force-
   local   ] [ -F, --info-script F --new-volume-script F ]  [
   -G,  --incremental  ] [ -g, --listed-incremental F ] [ -h,
   --dereference ] [ -i, --ignore-zeros ] [ -I, --bzip2  ]  [
   --ignore-failed-read  ]  [  -k,  --keep-old-files  ] [ -K,
   --starting-file F  ]  [  -l,  --one-file-system  ]  [  -L,
   --tape-length  N  ]  [  -m,  --modification-time  ]  [ -M,
   --multi-volume ] [ -N, --after-date DATE, --newer DATE ] [
   -o,  --old-archive,  --portability ] [ -O, --to-stdout ] [
   -p, --same-permissions,  --preserve-permissions  ]  [  -P,
   --absolute-names ] [ --preserve  ] [ -R, --record-num-
   ber ] [ --remove-files ] [ -s,  --same-order,  --preserve-
   order  ]  [  --same-owner  ]  [  --numeric-owner  ]  [ -S,
   --sparse ] [  -T,  --files-from  F  ]  [  --null  ]  [
   --totals]  [  -v,  --verbose  ] [ -V, --label NAME ] [
   --version  ] [ -w, --interactive, --confirmation ]  [  -W,
   --verify] [ --exclude FILE ] [ -X, --exclude-from FILE
   ]  [  -Z,  --compress,  --uncompress  ]  [   -z,   --gzip,
   --ungzip  ] [ --use-compress-program PROG ] [ --block-
   compress ] [ -[0-7][lmh] ]

I was actually on a newsgroup where someone had never user tar before.
They read the man page, and after trying and trying to understand all
the options they just got frustrated and posted to the newsgroup asking
how to make a simple tar file or expand a simple tar file.  Perhaps the
most common uses could be displayed at the top and leave the more
advanced uses for later on.

One advantage of man pages is being able to pipe them into other
commands such as grep, whereas interactive help doesn't allow for pipes.

-Original Message-
From: Ray Bowles [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 5:23 PM
To: Bruce Dawson
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org


*** On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 3:30pm Bruce Dawson shared this with the
class::

> What appears to be a rather frustrated newbie posted the following 
> article at the CentraLUG web site:
> 
> http://www.centralug.org/article.php?sid=37

Anyone have ideas on how to help. I think he has a decent idea. Heck, if
it came down to it and someone wrote the logic I would type the content.

Ray

--
Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path
and leave a trail.


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Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Ray Bowles]

*** On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 3:30pm Bruce Dawson shared this with the class::

> What appears to be a rather frustrated newbie posted the following 
> article at the CentraLUG web site:
> 
> http://www.centralug.org/article.php?sid=37

Anyone have ideas on how to help. I think he has a decent idea. Heck, if
it came down to it and someone wrote the logic I would type the content.

Ray

--
Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path
and leave a trail.


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Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org

[Bruce Dawson]

What appears to be a rather frustrated newbie posted the following 
article at the CentraLUG web site:

http://www.centralug.org/article.php?sid=37


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Re: /. article

[Paul Lussier]

In a message dated: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 19:42:39 EST
Jerry Feldman said:

>Robert Bork was never a Judge on The Supreme Court. He was nominated, but 
>his nomination was not approved by the Senate. We was, however, US 
>Solicitor General as well as a judge and did have a distinguished career.

My mistake.  Regardless, interesting and informative article :)


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Re: /. article

[Jerry Feldman]

Robert Bork was never a Judge on The Supreme Court. He was nominated, but 
his nomination was not approved by the Senate. We was, however, US 
Solicitor General as well as a judge and did have a distinguished career.
Paul Lussier wrote:
> 
> If you haven't already, read this article at Linux Planet.  It's a 
> discussion with form Supreme Court Justice Robert Bork about the PFJ 
> in the Microsoft case:
> 
>   http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/opinions/4020/1/
> 
> It's a very good read.
> -- 
> 
> Seeya,
> Paul
> 
> 
> God Bless America!
> 
>If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right!
> 
>   ...we don't need to be perfect to be the best around,
>   and we never stop trying to be better. 
>  Tom Clancy, The Bear and The Dragon
> 
> 
> 
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> 

-- 
Jerry Feldman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Boston Linux and Unix user group
http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9
PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9



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/. article

[Paul Lussier]

If you haven't already, read this article at Linux Planet.  It's a 
discussion with form Supreme Court Justice Robert Bork about the PFJ 
in the Microsoft case:

http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/opinions/4020/1/

It's a very good read.
-- 

Seeya,
Paul


  God Bless America!

 If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right!

...we don't need to be perfect to be the best around,
and we never stop trying to be better. 
   Tom Clancy, The Bear and The Dragon



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Re: Great quote from NYT article

[Michael O'Donnell]

>Microsoft's principal interest was in ensuring that
>its Windows CE operating system was in the box rather
>than improving the consumer experience.


Well, they had to make a choice, right?


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Great quote from NYT article

[Paul Iadonisi]

  Hop on over to the New York Times article at
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/07/technology/ebusiness/07GADG.html
(free registration required -- ick) and scroll about 2/3 of the down for
this classic quote:

   Mr. Perlman said that after Microsoft acquired WebTV for $425 million
   in April 1997 he had stayed and tried to refine the product until it
   became clear that Microsoft's principal interest was in ensuring that
   its Windows CE operating system was in the box rather than improving
   the consumer experience.

I think that speaks for itself and requires no further comment.

(Yeah, I know, I'm preaching to the choir.)

-- 
-Paul Iadonisi
 Senior Systems Administrator
 Red Hat Certified Engineer / Local Linux Lobbyist
 Ever see a penguin fly?  --  Try Linux.
 GPL all the way: Sell services, don't lease secrets

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Re: Interesting Article

[Rich C]

- Original Message -
From: "mike ledoux" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Rich C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 3:19 PM
Subject: Re: Interesting Article


[snip]

> > As far as the hardware demands of recent Linux systems, the reason they
are
> > so big is because there are:
> >
> > a) Driver Modules for EVERY piece of hardware under the sun. I am
playing
> > with the 2.4.14 kernel. I did my menuconfig, and burned my kernel. Took
like
> > 5 minutes to compile, and another 5 minutes for the modules. Well, I
didn't
> > get everything I wanted in there, so I used the default .config file
from
> > /usr/src/linux (mandrake 8.1 system.) The dang thing took almost an hour
to
> > build the modules!! When I looked at the .config file more closely,
there
> > were modules for EVERY disk controller, sound chip, ethernet chip, video
> > chip, and peripheral device there is (well, almost.)
>
> This shouldn't impact the performance of the system at all--the whole
> point of using modules is that you aren't wasting resources to support
> hardware that isn't being used.  Yes, it will take longer to build the
> kernel and modules, as you're building a lot of stuff that you don't
> need, but it shouldn't impact runtime performance, which is what is
> really important.

No, but having all these on the disk sure adds to the space requirements. It
was more of a recent observation of mine while building a variation of a
"stock" kernel as opposed to one I configured from scratch.

>
> At any rate, my comment was more the demands of the recent distributions,
> not the kernel itself.  If you take the time to build your own Linux
> system from the ground up, you can still make it run well on a 386 or 486.
>
> > b) Scores of different programs that do the same thing. This is not
> > necessarily a bad thing, but when you've got Gnome, KDE, Sawmill,
Sawfish,
> > WindowMaker, IceWM, and FVWM(2) for desktops and Netscape, Opera,
Konqueror,
> > Mozilla, and Galeon for browsers (I know I've forgotten all the text
> > browsers and probably a half a dozen others, but my point has been made,
I
> > think) you're going to have a darn big distribution.
>
> This is where I thought the interesting discussion could come in.
> It used to be that you could take a RedHat distribution and install it
> on a low-spec machine (think 486, 8MB RAM, <500MB disk) with no problems.
> Try that with RH 6.x or 7.x--good luck.  The sad part about all of this
> (to me, anyway) is that the big stumbling block here isn't the actual
> software, so much as the installation routines.

But Red Hat and Mandrake and Debian too, as I recall, have options for
standard text installs, like the old days. It's not the default, but you can
do it. Same with the Init scripts. You don't HAVE to run Aurora (Mandrake)
if you don't want to.

>
> > And I think that the whole VMM issue with the lower 2.4.x kernels has
> > contributed to the perception that Linux is becoming bloated and slow.
>
> I'll agree with that.
>
> > I disagree. If you take the above into consideration, and build a
> > streamlined kernel that has only what you need (and SOME of what you
MIGHT
> > need) and strip away all the programs you don't use, you can have a
small
> > fast operating system that puts MS to shame. Still.
>
> Right, but this is *way* beyond a new Linux user, who was probably told
> that Linux would make their old hardware useful again.  Hell, this is
> probably beyond most people that have been using Linux for years.
>

Good point. The new distros are solving the problems that new Linux users
have traditionally had with Linux: it was just too foreign to them as it
was. They are making 1) user-friendly point-and-click installation programs
while AT THE SAME TIME doing 2) the automation tasks like hardware probing
and auto configuration that are REALLY useful. So if I understand you right,
you are saying that what we need for older systems is something that does #2
without necessarily doing #1?

Rich Cloutier
President, C*O
SYSTEM SUPPORT SERVICES
www.sysupport.com



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Re: Interesting Article

[Rich C]

- Original Message -
From: "mike ledoux" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: Interesting Article


> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 11:44:10AM -0500, Paul Lussier wrote:
> >
> > Don't know if anyone read the article linked off of /. last night
> > about "How to make Software Projects fail", but it's quite
> > interesting.  Here's a choice quote:
> >
> > http://www.softwaremarketsolution.com/
>
> I hadn't seen this before, but this guy 'Joel' lost all credibility
> when he "promised to commit ritual suicide via web cam if we discover
> any category one bugs in the product".  If he's stupid enough to believe
> that his company has eliminated every bug in a content management system
> product, he's stupid enough that I probably shouldn't care about
> anything else he has to say.  His comments on bloatware that you quote
> are particularly inane, as they completely ignore the other negative
> effects of bloatware to focus on how cheap disk space has become.
>

He didn't say "every" bug, he said "every category one bug." And I'm sure
he's defining what "category one" is! :) It's a marketing ploy, pure and
simple. I'm surprised you fell for it.

> That said, he does make at least one interesting point about Microsoft's
> success, that I think might be particularly discussion-worthy in relation
> to open-source and free software:
>
>"Microsoft always figured that it's better to let the hardware catch
> up with the software rather than spending time writing code for old
> computers owned by people who aren't buying much software any more."
>
> I'm not saying that he's right, just that it might be worth discussing,
> particularly in light of the hardware demands of recent Linux
> distributions.

Actually, I agree with most of what he said in the article except the
bloatware thing. But he's focused on the wrong part of the problem. The SIZE

of the bloatware is no longer the problem, what with cheap memory and hard
drive space. The REAL problem is speed. People don't buy new computers any
more to get more RAM or bigger hard drives. They get them to make their
systems and programs boot and load FASTER. Having a 200 MB program is not a
problem any more, as long as the first window is up and useable inside of 2
seconds.

As far as the hardware demands of recent Linux systems, the reason they are
so big is because there are:

a) Driver Modules for EVERY piece of hardware under the sun. I am playing
with the 2.4.14 kernel. I did my menuconfig, and burned my kernel. Took like
5 minutes to compile, and another 5 minutes for the modules. Well, I didn't
get everything I wanted in there, so I used the default .config file from
/usr/src/linux (mandrake 8.1 system.) The dang thing took almost an hour to
build the modules!! When I looked at the .config file more closely, there
were modules for EVERY disk controller, sound chip, ethernet chip, video
chip, and peripheral device there is (well, almost.)

b) Scores of different programs that do the same thing. This is not
necessarily a bad thing, but when you've got Gnome, KDE, Sawmill, Sawfish,
WindowMaker, IceWM, and FVWM(2) for desktops and Netscape, Opera, Konqueror,
Mozilla, and Galeon for browsers (I know I've forgotten all the text
browsers and probably a half a dozen others, but my point has been made, I
think) you're going to have a darn big distribution.

And I think that the whole VMM issue with the lower 2.4.x kernels has
contributed to the perception that Linux is becoming bloated and slow.

I disagree. If you take the above into consideration, and build a
streamlined kernel that has only what you need (and SOME of what you MIGHT
need) and strip away all the programs you don't use, you can have a small
fast operating system that puts MS to shame. Still.

Sure KDE2 sucks on my P166. But I don't USE KDE2 on my P166. I use
WindowMaker. The right tool for the job. And it works great. And so does
KDE2 on my dual PIII/1000!

Rich Cloutier
President, C*O
SYSTEM SUPPORT SERVICES
www.sysupport.com



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Interesting Article

[Paul Lussier]

Don't know if anyone read the article linked off of /. last night 
about "How to make Software Projects fail", but it's quite 
interesting.  Here's a choice quote:

http://www.softwaremarketsolution.com/

"Moore's law makes much of the whining about bloatware ridiculous.
In 1993, Microsoft Excel 5.0 took up about $36 worth of hard drive
space. In 2000, Microsoft Excel 2000 takes up about $1.03 in hard
drive space. All adjusted for inflation. So stop whining about how
bloated it is."

(The guy being interviewed used to work at MS, in case that's not 
obvious :)

The article is quite interesting, and he make some really good 
(business) points about software projects.

-- 

Seeya,
Paul


  God Bless America!

...we don't need to be perfect to be the best around,
and we never stop trying to be better. 
   Tom Clancy, The Bear and The Dragon



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Interesting article on the encryption backdoor issue

[Derek Doucette]

I found this on securityfocus, it has some interesting points, maybe we 
should send it to someone who cares:

http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/26

Derek


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Wired Magazine's article on SSSCA

[Jon 'maddog' Hall, Executive Director, Linux International]

See http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,46655,00.html
-- 
=
Jon "maddog" Hall
Executive Director   Linux(R) International
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 80 Amherst St. 
Voice: +1.603.672.4557   Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A.
WWW: http://www.li.org

Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association

(R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries.


-- 
=
Jon "maddog" Hall
Executive Director   Linux(R) International
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 80 Amherst St. 
Voice: +1.603.672.4557   Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A.
WWW: http://www.li.org

Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association

(R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries.


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Great article about civil liberties repercussions

[Derek Martin]

http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=14924

This article highlights some of the potential consequences of our own
fear for our safety, after the events of last Tuesday.  A must read
for those of you who care about your freedom.

-- 
---
Derek Martin  |   Unix/Linux geek
[EMAIL PROTECTED]|   GnuPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D
Retrieve my public key at http://pgp.mit.edu


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Linux article in Nashua Telegraph

[Bob Bell]

For those who missed it, there was a Linux article in the Nashua
Telegraph this past Sunday (two days ago).  The front page to the
business section had a half-page graphic of Tux at his birthday party
:-)  The article references GNHLUG and few of our members.

The two parts of the article can be found online at:
http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/main.asp?ArticleID=39023&SectionID=27
http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/main.asp?ArticleID=39022&SectionID=27

-- 
Bob Bell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
-
 "We didn't go to the altar, never swore allegiance or anything like
  that."
   -- Andrew Grove, Intel chairman, regarding the "Wintel duopoly"

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Article: Trinity drinks deeply...

[Benjamin Scott]

Hey all,

  "Trinity drinks deeply at learning's open source"

  http://it.mycareer.com.au/news/2001/06/05/FFX9ZT7UENC.html

  The above is an excellent article on Fairfax IT's website about one school's
use of Linux, GNU, and other Open Source/Free Software.  Describes how they
replaced a Windows network with a faster, cheaper, and easier to manage
network of Linux systems.  Using Intel-based boxes from HP and Debian, I note.  

  Includes a great quote: "We're educating, not training."

  This one got saved in my propaganda files.

-- 
Ben Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
| The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not |
| necessarily represent the views or policy of any other person, entity or  |
| organization.  All information is provided without warranty of any kind.  |


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Re: New Ballmer article

[Jeffry Smith]

Actually, the GPL doesn't require you make all your software Open Source 
(GPL) - only stuff derived from the GPL'd code.  Of course, the MPL also 
does that.  And yes, Ballmer I'm certain knows this - they are very 
specifically confusing the issues.

jeff

"Tony Lambiris" said:
>http://www.suntimes.com/output/tech/cst-fin-micro01.html
>
>Besides calling Linux a cancer, he obviously has his licenses mixed up. I
>quote: "Open source is not available to commercial companies. The way the
>license is written, if you use any open-source software, you have to make
>the rest of your software open source." He is obviously talking about 
GPL. I
>think its unfair of him to make this gross generalization about open 
source
>licenses. I think the editor should've made a note to it's readers... the
>last thing we need is more FUD's on open source.
>
>---
>Tony Lambiris [[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>PC Support Specialist
>P: 603-324-3000 x 234
>C: 603-759-8384
>"Microsoft doesn't believe in free() code."Besi
>
>
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New Ballmer article

[Tony Lambiris]

http://www.suntimes.com/output/tech/cst-fin-micro01.html

Besides calling Linux a cancer, he obviously has his licenses mixed up. I
quote: "Open source is not available to commercial companies. The way the
license is written, if you use any open-source software, you have to make
the rest of your software open source." He is obviously talking about GPL. I
think its unfair of him to make this gross generalization about open source
licenses. I think the editor should've made a note to it's readers... the
last thing we need is more FUD's on open source.

---
Tony Lambiris [[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
PC Support Specialist
P: 603-324-3000 x 234
C: 603-759-8384
"Microsoft doesn't believe in free() code."Besi


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May American Spectator article

[Dave hardy]

The current (May) American Spectator magazine has an article by Andy Kessler arguing 
against the proposed breakup of M$ which some may enjoy reading.  

Some tidbits:

"Judge Judy, please don't break up Microsoft.  We have them just where we want them, 
stuck in a corner with wet paint drying around them."

"...a divided Microsoft is a dangerous, hungry beast, while an intact Microsoft is 
stuck in a position where it can do little harm and significant good."

Kessler on NT:  "Unfortunately, it was as reliable as a Yugo."

"Once you go Linux, you never go back."

I thought it was unusual to see this perpective in a political magazine;  I'd link to 
the article but they don't have it up on their site;  you gotta buy it at 
Mega-Books-R-Us.

Regahds from Montpelier,

Dave



Dave Hardy
Systems Manager/DBA
Vermont Health Care Administration
89 Main Street
Drawer 20
Montpelier, VT 05620-3101
802-828-2914
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Linux Journal Article

[Kenneth E. Lussier]

All,

Since I didn't make it to tonights CNHLUG meeting, I'll mention this on the 
list instead. There is a great article in this months Linux Journal on 
Bastille-Linux. It steps through download, installation, and configuration. 
Anyone interested in securing a Linux system should take a look at the 
article, as well as the software itself. It's great for beginners because 
it explains what it does and why. For people that have been doing security 
for a while, it can be tweaked to speed up the process of locking down a 
box by setting up a non-interactive configuration and running it on several 
boxes.

FYI,
Kenny

-
   Kenneth E. Lussier
   Geek by nature, Linux by choice
   PGP keyID: 0xD71DF198
   Public key available @ http://pgp.mit.edu


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Re: Good article

[Tom Rauschenbach]

On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, Richard Soule wrote:
> > Wish I could figure out how...
> 
> Didn't MS try something like this?


No, I meant I wish I could figure out they run Debian.  I couldn't get it to
work. (I'm running slackware now).  And there is a website that tries to 
keep a count of Linux users.  Checl out  http://counter.li.org


>  
> They embedded stuff into their code that reported back to MS your
> configuration and system information.  They didn't tell anyone about it
> and it caused an uproar when it was found.
> 
> We *could* do something in an open source way (which means 'everyone
> would know') to 'register' linux use when there was an internet
> connection on the machine, but it seems like there are some serious
> privacy concerns.
> 
> Rich
> 
> Tom Rauschenbach wrote:
> > 
> > On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, Thomas M. Albright wrote:
> > > On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, Kenneth E. Lussier wrote:
> > >
> > > > I found this to be a fairly good article. It's about the current trends in
> > > > Linux companies, and what the future could hold for them. The one thing
> > > > that I didn't like was that they completely ignored Debian. I assume this
> > > > is because Debian isn't a company, but I find it hard to believe that 70%
> > > > of all Linux systems are RedHat.
> > > >
> > > Actually that's true. I don't remeber the study, but RedHat dominates
> > > the Commercial Linux market in the US, SuSE dominates the German
> > > Commercial market, but Debian dominates the non-commercial market, and
> > > in fact, more *people* use Debian.
> > 
> > Wish I could figure out how...
> > 
> > >
> > > **
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> > --
> > ---
> > Tom Rauschenbach[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > All your base are belong to us
> > 
> > **
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> 
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-- 
---
Tom Rauschenbach[EMAIL PROTECTED]
All your base are belong to us

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Re: Good article

[Richard Soule]

> Wish I could figure out how...

Didn't MS try something like this?

They embedded stuff into their code that reported back to MS your
configuration and system information.  They didn't tell anyone about it
and it caused an uproar when it was found.

We *could* do something in an open source way (which means 'everyone
would know') to 'register' linux use when there was an internet
connection on the machine, but it seems like there are some serious
privacy concerns.

Rich

Tom Rauschenbach wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, Thomas M. Albright wrote:
> > On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, Kenneth E. Lussier wrote:
> >
> > > I found this to be a fairly good article. It's about the current trends in
> > > Linux companies, and what the future could hold for them. The one thing
> > > that I didn't like was that they completely ignored Debian. I assume this
> > > is because Debian isn't a company, but I find it hard to believe that 70%
> > > of all Linux systems are RedHat.
> > >
> > Actually that's true. I don't remeber the study, but RedHat dominates
> > the Commercial Linux market in the US, SuSE dominates the German
> > Commercial market, but Debian dominates the non-commercial market, and
> > in fact, more *people* use Debian.
> 
> Wish I could figure out how...
> 
> >
> > **
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> --
> ---
> Tom Rauschenbach[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> All your base are belong to us
> 
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Re: Good article

[Tom Rauschenbach]

On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, Thomas M. Albright wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, Kenneth E. Lussier wrote:
> 
> > I found this to be a fairly good article. It's about the current trends in
> > Linux companies, and what the future could hold for them. The one thing
> > that I didn't like was that they completely ignored Debian. I assume this
> > is because Debian isn't a company, but I find it hard to believe that 70%
> > of all Linux systems are RedHat.
> >
> Actually that's true. I don't remeber the study, but RedHat dominates
> the Commercial Linux market in the US, SuSE dominates the German
> Commercial market, but Debian dominates the non-commercial market, and
> in fact, more *people* use Debian.



Wish I could figure out how...





> 
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-- 
---
Tom Rauschenbach[EMAIL PROTECTED]
All your base are belong to us

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Re: Good article

[Paul Lussier]

In a message dated: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 16:02:58 EST
"Thomas M. Albright" said:

>Having read the artivle more closely, I can tell this guy didn't do a
>whole lot of research. Just as a f'rinstance: Linuxmall.com bout out
>Ebiz, not the other way around.
>
>Sorry. Little rant. I'm better now.

Ahm, nope.  Ebiz did buy Linuxmall.  Ebiz also just bought JBSI.  We buy a lot 
from Ebiz.  Linuxmall no longer exists, neither does JBSI.  Ebiz does.
However, they do bill them as "mergers" not "takeovers" but let's call a spade 
a spade, shall we :)
-- 

Seeya,
Paul

It may look like I'm just sitting here doing nothing,
   but I'm really actively waiting for all my problems to go away.

 If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right!



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Re: Good article

[Jeffry Smith]

Well, it can't be too bad, because it mentions Mission Critical Linux ;-)

Seriously, although in general it's OK, it does make some false 
assumptions, including that Red Hat has 70% of the market.  Even IDC 
admits they can't figure out what the real market is (since everyone only 
counts licenses sold, and we all know what that means for Linux).  I saw a 
survey recently that Mandrake is the best seller in the US right now.  Of 
course, none of these things say anything about Debian, because they don't 
sell there distro!

Also, although alluded to early in the article about Linux being around 
for the long haul, it misses the most important aspect of this:   Because 
of the Open Source nature of it (the source is available, modifiable, and 
mods can be distributed along with the original source), Linux can never 
be killed.  As long as anyone is willing to work on the code (pay or not), 
Linux will live.

It's good that the distros/companies are focusing on profitability now 
(the failure of most of the dot-coms was any kind of business plan to 
actually make money).  However, the article didn't go into enough about 
how a variety of distros is actually good, and not just because of 
competition.  By specializing in various areas, the the distros allow you 
to get a version that matches your needs (and is why people should try 
multiple distros before choosing one).

jeff

---
Jeffry Smith  Technical Sales Consultant Mission Critical Linux
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   phone:603.930.9739 fax:978.446.9470
---
Thought for today:  BQS /B-Q-S/ adj. 

 Syn. Berkeley Quality Software.





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Re: Good article

[Thomas M. Albright]

On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, Kenneth E. Lussier wrote:

> I found this to be a fairly good article. It's about the current trends in
> Linux companies, and what the future could hold for them. The one thing
> that I didn't like was that they completely ignored Debian. I assume this
> is because Debian isn't a company, but I find it hard to believe that 70%
> of all Linux systems are RedHat.
>
> http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-5112816.html?tag=tp_pr
>
Having read the artivle more closely, I can tell this guy didn't do a
whole lot of research. Just as a f'rinstance: Linuxmall.com bout out
Ebiz, not the other way around.

Sorry. Little rant. I'm better now.

-- 
Thomas M. Albright
Albright Enterprises - "The Small Business Solution"
http://www.albrightent.com/


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Re: Good article

[Thomas M. Albright]

On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, Kenneth E. Lussier wrote:

> I found this to be a fairly good article. It's about the current trends in
> Linux companies, and what the future could hold for them. The one thing
> that I didn't like was that they completely ignored Debian. I assume this
> is because Debian isn't a company, but I find it hard to believe that 70%
> of all Linux systems are RedHat.
>
Actually that's true. I don't remeber the study, but RedHat dominates
the Commercial Linux market in the US, SuSE dominates the German
Commercial market, but Debian dominates the non-commercial market, and
in fact, more *people* use Debian.

Most likely, the author of the article was using sales numbers. They are
alot eaiser to track than downloads... :)

> http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-5112816.html?tag=tp_pr
>
> Kenny
>
> -
>Kenneth E. Lussier
>Geek by nature, Linux by choice
>PGP keyID: 0xD71DF198
>Public key available @ http://pgp.mit.edu
>
>
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>

-- 
Thomas M. Albright
Albright Enterprises - "The Small Business Solution"
http://www.albrightent.com/


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Good article

[Kenneth E. Lussier]

I found this to be a fairly good article. It's about the current trends in 
Linux companies, and what the future could hold for them. The one thing 
that I didn't like was that they completely ignored Debian. I assume this 
is because Debian isn't a company, but I find it hard to believe that 70% 
of all Linux systems are RedHat.

http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-5112816.html?tag=tp_pr

Kenny

-
   Kenneth E. Lussier
   Geek by nature, Linux by choice
   PGP keyID: 0xD71DF198
   Public key available @ http://pgp.mit.edu


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DSL Article

[Lawrence.Tilly]

There is a DSL article on zdnet today.  It doesn't really say anything that
hasn't gone across this newsgroup a couple weeks ago (big surprise) but it's
interesting to see some of what was being said here "confirmed" by The
Press.  ;-)  Basically restates that the baby-Bells are driving indy DSL
providers out of business to make room for price hikes.  Anyone who is
surprised, please raise your hand.  They justify this against the
anti-monopoly voices by saying cable providers (as opposed to indy DSL
providers) are their real competition, so crushing the indys is really no
big deal.

If I haven't ruined the plot for you and you want to check out the
article...
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0%2C4586%2C2687148%2C00.html 

-Larry

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Re: Great article on why Open Source

[Niall Kavanagh]

On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Jeffry Smith wrote:

> > Are they getting behind linux, or are they getting behind "threat number
> > one" for Microsoft?
> 
> "The enemy of my enemy is my friend?"
> 

I don't think so. ;)

--
Niall Kavanagh, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
News, articles, and resources for web professionals and developers:
http://www.kst.com



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Re: Great article on why Open Source

[Jeffry Smith]

> My point exactly.  If the community starts to expect support from
> these corporate entities, it will suffer when they inevitably withdraw
> that support.  My point was that no matter how much they talk the
> talk, these corporate entities are not part of the Linux community in
> the same sense that any given individual could be, and that the
> community should keep that in mind.  By all means, we should take
> advantage of any support these corporations might provide, but we
> should be careful not to compromise 'the cause' to fulfill some
> corporate agenda.
> 

Of course, thanks to the GPL, none of them can "take over" Linux or any other GPL'd 
code.  We trust theircontributions, and use the GPL to verify their actions.  And keep 
coding!


-- 
jeff smith
--
thought for the day:  A thing is not necessarily true because a man dies for it.
-- Oscar Wilde, "The Portrait of Mr. W.H."



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Re: Great article on why Open Source

[Kenneth E. Lussier]

mike ledoux wrote:
> My point exactly.  If the community starts to expect support from
> these corporate entities, it will suffer when they inevitably withdraw
> that support.  My point was that no matter how much they talk the
> talk, these corporate entities are not part of the Linux community in
> the same sense that any given individual could be, and that the
> community should keep that in mind.  By all means, we should take
> advantage of any support these corporations might provide, but we
> should be careful not to compromise 'the cause' to fulfill some
> corporate agenda.

Mike's point is well hightlighted in the most recent in a string of
articles about how Linux needs "Corporate Guidence". This one is titled
"Is Linus Killing Linux"
(http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20010126S0013). People like IBM,
Compaq, et al. seem to think that one person controlling the kernel is
bad (which shows that they just don't get it). They think that the
kernel design should be controlled by a non-profit "Industry-funded"
entity. That way, the kerel design can follow "customer demand". Plain
and simple, the companies that claim to support Linux do *NOT* support
Linux, they support something that can make them money. That's what
companies are for. However, more and more large companies are jumping on
the band-wagon, and once they are on, they realize that none of the
rules that they used to dictate apply. So they do one of two things: 1)
They publicly anounce what Linux "needs to become to be competitive" or
2) They publicly announce that they no longer support Linux. #1 is a
poor attempt to force the community's hand into doing what they want.
But again, the old rules don't apply. The Linux comunitee can not be
threatened, blackmailed, or extorted into following suit(s) by virtue of
the simple fact that we have absolutly nothing to lose. If every major
company that claims to support Linux withdrew their support, and if
every distro company filed for bankruptcy (like Stormix just did), what
would we lose? Some pretty shrink-wraped boxes? Oh well. I for one would
still be using it. And I am willing to bet that OSS would continue to be
developed. Just Because (TM). 

Kenny
PS This is the first e-mail in the thread that I have read, so excuse me
if everything that I just said is completely off base ;-)

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Re: Great article on why Open Source

[Derek Martin]

On Fri, 26 Jan 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> >> Are they getting behind linux, or are they getting behind "threat number
> >> one" for Microsoft?
> >
> >"The enemy of my enemy is my friend?"
> 
> That kind of thinking has a nasty tendancy to backfire in the long
> run.  The Linux community would be wise to avoid it.

Maybe so, but we're talking about the likes of IBM, Sun, and
Hewlett-Packard here...  Corporate entities are not your typical members
of the Linux community.  Their motivations are entirely different from
those of the typical Linux coder or hardcore Linux user. They're in it for
the $$, no matter how friendly they may be to the community.  As such,
what applies to the Linux community as a whole doesn't necessarily apply
to those corporate entities.


-- 
Derek D. Martin
Unix/Linux Geek
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: Great article on why Open Source

[Jeffry Smith]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
> >> Are they getting behind linux, or are they getting behind "threat number
> >> one" for Microsoft?
> >
> >"The enemy of my enemy is my friend?"
> 
> That kind of thinking has a nasty tendancy to backfire in the long
> run.  The Linux community would be wise to avoid it.
> 
I didn't say it was our thinking!

jeff

---
Jeffry Smith  Technical Sales Consultant Mission Critical Linux
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   phone:603.930.9739 fax:978.446.9470
---
Thought for today:  softwarily /soft-weir'i-lee/ adv. 

 In a way pertaining to
   software.  "The system is softwarily unreliable."  The adjective
   **`softwary' is not used.  See hardwarily.





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Re: Great article on why Open Source

[Benjamin Scott]

On Fri, 26 Jan 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>> Are they getting behind linux, or are they getting behind "threat number
>>> one" for Microsoft?
>>
>>"The enemy of my enemy is my friend?"
> 
> That kind of thinking has a nasty tendancy to backfire in the long run.  
> The Linux community would be wise to avoid it.

  Perhaps.  Or perhaps mind the caveat that one must ensure that your enemy's
enemy does not also become your enemy.

  Or perhaps better yet, simply ignore this political posturing as much as
possible, and simply focus on writing good code.  That policy seems to be
working for Linux so far.  :-)

-- 
Ben Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Net Technologies, Inc. 
Voice: (800)905-3049 x18   Fax: (978)499-7839


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Re: Great article on why Open Source

[Jeffry Smith]

Niall Kavanagh said:
> On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Tony Lambiris wrote:
> 
> > Steve Ballmer, Microsoft's generally upbeat chief executive officer,
> > publicly acknowledged this for the first time: "I'd put the Linux phenomenon
> > really as threat number one," he said.
> > 
> > har har har.
> > 
> > But seriously, it's unfortunate they see it as a "threat". What they should
> > be concerned with is all the big players (like Sun, IBM, SGI, etc..) getting
> > behind Linux and supporting it.
> > 
> 
> Are they getting behind linux, or are they getting behind "threat number
> one" for Microsoft?
> 

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend?"

jeff

---
Jeffry Smith  Technical Sales Consultant Mission Critical Linux
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   phone:603.930.9739 fax:978.446.9470
---
Thought for today:  gorp /gorp/ n. 

 [CMU: perhaps from the canonical hiker's
   food, Good Old Raisins and Peanuts] Another metasyntactic variable, like 





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RE: Great article on why Open Source

[Benjamin Scott]

On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Niall Kavanagh wrote:
> Are they getting behind linux, or are they getting behind "threat number
> one" for Microsoft?

  In many cases, both.  Something that both helps their customers and hurts
their competition is a pretty big win, in their eyes.  :-)

-- 
Ben Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Net Technologies, Inc. 
Voice: (800)905-3049 x18   Fax: (978)499-7839


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RE: Great article on why Open Source

[Niall Kavanagh]

On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Tony Lambiris wrote:

> Steve Ballmer, Microsoft's generally upbeat chief executive officer,
> publicly acknowledged this for the first time: "I'd put the Linux phenomenon
> really as threat number one," he said.
> 
> har har har.
> 
> But seriously, it's unfortunate they see it as a "threat". What they should
> be concerned with is all the big players (like Sun, IBM, SGI, etc..) getting
> behind Linux and supporting it.
> 

Are they getting behind linux, or are they getting behind "threat number
one" for Microsoft?

--
Niall Kavanagh, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
News, articles, and resources for web professionals and developers:
http://www.kst.com



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Re: Great article on why Open Source

[Paul Lussier]

In a message dated: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:21:10 EST
Jeffry Smith said:

>http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4123037,00.html

Here's a *fantastic* quote:

"One reason that few people are aware there are programs running
 the internet is that they never crash in any significant way:
 the free software underlying the internet is reliable to the point
 of invisibility"
-- 

Seeya,
Paul

It may look like I'm just sitting here doing nothing,
   but I'm really actively waiting for all my problems to go away.

 If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right!



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RE: Great article on why Open Source

[Tony Lambiris]

That quote was taken from The Register... I would never call anyone from MS
'upbeat'.  :P

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of Paul Lussier
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 1:40 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Great article on why Open Source


In a message dated: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:27:45 EST
"Tony Lambiris" said:

>Steve Ballmer, Microsoft's generally upbeat chief executive office

Upbeat is not the word I'd use to descibe Balmer.

Smarmy, hinky, creepy, evil-incarnate, slimy, sneaky, untrustworthy,
snake-oil
salesman, conniving, plotting, etc., sure, but not upbeat.

IMO, Balmer is less trustworthy than Gates.
--

Seeya,
Paul

It may look like I'm just sitting here doing nothing,
   but I'm really actively waiting for all my problems to go away.

 If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right!



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