Re: Proposal to make GnomeLove official and move it to developer.gnome.org
On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Carlos Soriano Sanchez csori...@redhat.com wrote: Hi Magdalen, Thanks for your kind words. Still people like Allan and other people did a lot of work on this as well. I can provide my feelings when started contributing and personal vision, but they have the experience. I appreciate this. My main consideration I was urging Allan (and others generally) to make here, is that with increasing experience it can become harder and harder to remember what it's like to actually be a newcomer and see these things through their eyes. The experience of navigating through all this documentation between the wiki.gnome.org and developer.gnome.org, trying to figure out which documentation is reliable before carrying out commands, is something that is easy to forget about, and that's a bit of an inevitability; so it's understandable, but because of that, we probably all need to try to be weary of as time goes on. So I won't go alone on this if they don't agree =) That would mean I'm missing something. I wasn't suggesting you go it alone. I was giving my opinion on your proposal, given that this seemed to be what you were after. If you are only interested in feedback from specific people then it's probably advisable to make that clear from the outset. Magdalen ___ gnome-doc-list mailing list gnome-doc-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-doc-list
Re: Proposal to make GnomeLove official and move it to developer.gnome.org
Hi Allan, On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 12:17 PM, Carlos Soriano Sanchez csori...@redhat.com wrote: Hi Allan, So if we continue with the wiki, most of the points I pointed before continue to be a problem... New jhbuild/git/whatever tutorials will came up... people won't find the appropriate one given that the wiki is not official. Echo this. The developer.gnome jhbuild instructions are quite misleading because they are not up to date. Yet, this is where newcomers are rightfully, most likely to look first and to trust most. i.e. people say: it's a wiki, just modify it! Which is true, but I don't think we want that for something like this. Some people will prefer one tutorial over the other, and we will continue to link different tutorials and continue maintaining all of them and having to deal with a mix set up of the newcomers and newcomers will continue to be confused going back and forward on different guides. This. Carlos seems to be doing a good job of empathising with newcomers in this proposal and personally, I think his assessment is pretty on the money. Tutorials need to be trustworthy, current, comprehensive and provide step by step guides to really be able to help a newcomer get to grips with a concept or skill in certain cases e.g. jhbuild. Carlos has identified a barrier newcomers face when they are learning about GNOME and his suggested solution seems pretty sensible. We can agree on something like this wiki tutorial is the one we recommend, but we can't enforce it at all if we not move to a official page like developers.gnome.org So if it is a matter of logical splitting about 3rd party apps and Gnome contribution, I don't think it matters that much in practice no? What do you propose to fix these problems if not? This is the only idea that came to my mind. Cheers, Carlos Soriano ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-l...@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ gnome-doc-list mailing list gnome-doc-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-doc-list
Re: Proposal to make GnomeLove official and move it to developer.gnome.org
Hi Allan, Thanks a lot for your feedback, disagreement is the best to reach an agreement =) This is not important I don't feel jhbuidl to me in practice very different. We do the same with git. What I want is creating an assistant (like a GtkAssistant, only one direction) which explains the firsts steps using whatever is necessary. Your proposal here is: when the jhbuild part arrives, link to another page. That was my intention previously as well, but that changed when the topic proposal came to my mind. Instead of linking for every tool manual, create a single page with whatever is necessary, not focusing in the actual tools. This is what https://wiki.gnome.org/GnomeLove/BuildGnome currently does. When we were discussing about adding a Getting started in jhbuild *completely* equal to BuildGnome jhbuild part, these problems arise in my mind: - That getting started is for just contributing to Gnome? Can we make others assumptions as well? Jhbuild still is a generic tool. If we do this (and whatever we do with GnomeLove we still want this), I see the Ryan Lortie guide (HowDoI/Jhbuild) a better fit here. - So at the end of the guide, we link to contribute with patches https://wiki.gnome.org/GnomeLove/CodeContributionWorkflow?? Seems unrelated. - So they go back and forward instead of remaining in the same page? But to be honest, I don't mind doing it like what you want. It's not even a concern for me right now. -- This is important =) So your assumption is right, moving most of the material of GnomeLove. I understand what you mean with removing community maintained, but can be misleading for others. Let me explain: developer.gnome.org is still maintained by the community, but they go through a review process, and gives control to the maintainers. Like any project we have in git. I agree is not that easy to edit, and that can to remove some quick edit from community. That is what we will miss. But if we make it intelligent, the pages won't need much maintainability. Contributing to Gnome didn't changed that much in the years I have been contributing (3). Why is a problem the wiki? Why we have that feeling that currently is difficult to maintain the wiki, if we move to a website we are making even more difficult? Seems I'm going to do just the opposite of what we want right? =) Let me explain. For what I saw in this years, the burden of the difficulty is not in editing the wiki, but in the variety of what we have! And I am 100% sure about this from my POV. I edited 5 different jhbuild pages, 2 different guides to get started, 3 guides for git... etc. and everything is scattered. So imagine, I take now a OPW to clean everything of this. In one year we will have the same problem =) I can't be bold in the wiki, I don't feel to be bold in the wiki. A specific example (and this one is what made the topic proposal came to my mind): I wrote for some months BuildGnome alongside removing some guides (reaching an agreement really takes long time) and trying to discuss everything. I finished, and I linked BuildGnome on GnomeLove as the *official* guide. One month after that Ryan Lortie write a full jhbuild guide in HowDoI/Jhbuild because he thought there were no guide for jhbuild! He is a experienced developer and couldn't notice we had 3 jhbuild guides at that point! Clearly we are doing something wrong... So what now? After he spent that much time writing that very well explained guide, I say to him: hey sorry, I'm going to delete because we already have others and in GnomeLove we already have one linked. No, I don't feel like doing it. We can't stop new jhbuild/git tutorials. What I think we have to do is make clear we have a official one, and that needs review to *create* or *modify* it. There we can be bold, because we will have the control, and we will avoid telling people we will remove their material. To finalize, can you say to me which pages need that much work from you? It was because they were unmaintained? Or it was because all were scattered and need a big reorder? Could we getting rid of that parts that need change over the time, or write it in a way that doesn't need to change? I'm curious how didn't you notice the same I'm thinking. That those pages actually don't change that much, but is actually the scattered of those which makes it the need to change them. If we do it intelligently, I can imagine that the need to maintain it will be almost null =) What does bus factor 1 mean? Cheers, Carlos Soriano ___ gnome-doc-list mailing list gnome-doc-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-doc-list
Re: Proposal to make GnomeLove official and move it to developer.gnome.org
Hello all, We couldn't reach an agreement and the idea didn't have too much support from long time community members, so I'm dropping this proposal for now and therefore not taking an OPW intern. Thanks all for the feedback and time. Cheers, Carlos Soriano ___ gnome-doc-list mailing list gnome-doc-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-doc-list
Re: Proposal to make GnomeLove official and move it to developer.gnome.org
Hi Magdalen, Thanks for your kind words. Still people like Allan and other people did a lot of work on this as well. I can provide my feelings when started contributing and personal vision, but they have the experience. So I won't go alone on this if they don't agree =) That would mean I'm missing something. Cheers, Carlos Soriano ___ gnome-doc-list mailing list gnome-doc-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-doc-list
Re: Proposal to make GnomeLove official and move it to developer.gnome.org
Hi Emmanuele, So for the scope and scale you are right, but I'm trying to higher the scope and scale of building and contributing to GNOME as well. Not to be in par with Gtk+, but enough to deserve to be in the website. You are logically right about Legitimacy is provided by being on the gnome.org domain, not whether the page is on a wiki but in practice I think is not enough. The wiki will continue to be a wiki, editable by anyone, without any review process. And even if the tutorial I made recently is the linked one in GnomeLove, people in IRC link to other tutorials and they all have the same legitimacy since they are in the wiki. We are not transmitting and enforcing this. And a clear way to show the world we are doing it, is having the full guide in a official place. As for your worry about easiness of editing the page... If we do it well enough, we shouldn't need lot of maintenance. See for example the wiki page I created for this https://wiki.gnome.org/GnomeLove/BuildGnome Nothing here should change in a foreseable future. The only thing to maintain is a list of supported distros (distros that works out of the box). I'm not convinced on listing all workarounds for distros that doesn't work well with jhbuild, it's even more problems for newcomers, and when I started I was very angry about trying to do it in ubuntu and not being able to. I would payed for someone saying to me: we know a distro named Fedora/Opensuse works out of the box. And the workarounds is a hell to maintain, and didn't work for us at all until now. So far, I can't see anything else requiring too much contribution that a wiki will let people do it easier. What do you think? Cheers, Carlos Soriano - Original Message - From: Emmanuele Bassi eba...@gmail.com To: Carlos Soriano Sanchez csori...@redhat.com Cc: gnome-doc-list@gnome.org, desktop-devel-list desktop-devel-l...@gnome.org Sent: Wednesday, 18 March, 2015 1:09:04 PM Subject: Re: Proposal to make GnomeLove official and move it to developer.gnome.org Hi; On 17 March 2015 at 12:33, Carlos Soriano Sanchez csori...@redhat.com wrote: So after some work in GnomeLove and discussions in the gnome-love list, I would like to make this proposal. Read more here https://wiki.gnome.org/CarlosSoriano/GnomeLoveMoveTask So I would want to have feedback on this idea over this week, since I will take a intern from OPW for it, and the deadline is next Monday. What do you think? =) Hope you like the idea. I'm a little bit worried that you're trading off the ability to easily keep the page up to date with a more convoluted process that requires learning Mallard, committing to a Git repository, and then updating the page on d.g.o. You note this as well, but then you mention Getting started with GTK+ which does not really apply in the same way as building and contributing to GNOME — the scope and scale of the two efforts are clearly not similar. Why is having a page on the wiki a problem? Legitimacy is provided by being on the gnome.org domain, not whether the page is on a wiki. Would having a prominent link on developer.gnome.org solve the issue of the Google page ranking, while keeping the page easily editable? Ciao, Emmanuele. -- https://www.bassi.io [@] ebassi [@gmail.com] ___ gnome-doc-list mailing list gnome-doc-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-doc-list ___ gnome-doc-list mailing list gnome-doc-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-doc-list
Re: Proposal to make GnomeLove official and move it to developer.gnome.org
Hi Michael Hill, Whops I misunderstood you. You are right, HowDoI will continue to be like is now. I don't have any intention there. Actually, HowDoI/Jhbuild is so good that it could be in the official Jhbuild documentation instead, as a getting started with jhbuild since HowDoI/Jhbuild is well explained and generic and I think is a good fit for that purpose. But I will delegate that decision to Jhbuild maintainers. Cheers, Carlos Soriano - Original Message - From: Michael Hill mdhil...@gmail.com To: Carlos Soriano Sanchez csori...@redhat.com Cc: gnome-doc-list gnome-doc-list@gnome.org, desktop-devel-list desktop-devel-l...@gnome.org Sent: Thursday, 19 March, 2015 3:37:18 PM Subject: Re: Proposal to make GnomeLove official and move it to developer.gnome.org Hi Carlos, On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 10:28 AM, Carlos Soriano Sanchez csori...@redhat.com wrote: I am not testing only how a beginner person that came to a hackfest, given a tutorial on jhbuild and fedora distro, how it successfully builds. This is only the tip of the iceberg. Jhbuild is just a a part of a tool for something much bigger. Discovering and contributing to Gnome. I applaud your efforts to address these issues for beginners. I was trying to correct the misconception held by Michael and others that the goal is to eliminate HowDoI/Jhbuild, a useful tool that isn't *only* for beginners. Mike ___ gnome-doc-list mailing list gnome-doc-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-doc-list ___ gnome-doc-list mailing list gnome-doc-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-doc-list
Re: Proposal to make GnomeLove official and move it to developer.gnome.org
Hi Allan, So if we continue with the wiki, most of the points I pointed before continue to be a problem... New jhbuild/git/whatever tutorials will came up... people won't find the appropriate one given that the wiki is not official. i.e. people say: it's a wiki, just modify it! Which is true, but I don't think we want that for something like this. Some people will prefer one tutorial over the other, and we will continue to link different tutorials and continue maintaining all of them and having to deal with a mix set up of the newcomers and newcomers will continue to be confused going back and forward on different guides. We can agree on something like this wiki tutorial is the one we recommend, but we can't enforce it at all if we not move to a official page like developers.gnome.org So if it is a matter of logical splitting about 3rd party apps and Gnome contribution, I don't think it matters that much in practice no? What do you propose to fix these problems if not? This is the only idea that came to my mind. Cheers, Carlos Soriano ___ gnome-doc-list mailing list gnome-doc-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-doc-list
Proposal to make GnomeLove official and move it to developer.gnome.org
Hi, So after some work in GnomeLove and discussions in the gnome-love list, I would like to make this proposal. Read more here https://wiki.gnome.org/CarlosSoriano/GnomeLoveMoveTask So I would want to have feedback on this idea over this week, since I will take a intern from OPW for it, and the deadline is next Monday. What do you think? =) Hope you like the idea. Cheers, Carlos Soriano ___ gnome-doc-list mailing list gnome-doc-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-doc-list
Re: Proposal to make GnomeLove official and move it to developer.gnome.org
Hi Michael Hill, Didn't you received private messages from newcomers overwhelmed with the different ways on how to contribute a patch? On how to do this or that in git? On how to know the code style? On how to just get the code? Why I have to read multiple tutorials? Because I did. And guides of different kinds came up... Also, did you see the questions of newcomers in gnome-love? They ask those things. And we, people helping, waste time figuring out their set up. Why are you developing the patch in master? Why don't you create a branch? You just lose all the work you have been doing... oh but that guide told me yes I know, sorry for that, I didn't know you were following that guide and not this other one. I feel heartbreaked every time a newcomer says to me this is too much trouble and confusing. They just want a unique short guide to hack their firsts patches. I am not testing only how a beginner person that came to a hackfest, given a tutorial on jhbuild and fedora distro, how it successfully builds. This is only the tip of the iceberg. Jhbuild is just a a part of a tool for something much bigger. Discovering and contributing to Gnome. Cheers, Carlos Soriano - Original Message - From: Michael Hill mdhil...@gmail.com To: Michael Catanzaro mcatanz...@gnome.org Cc: desktop-devel-list desktop-devel-l...@gnome.org, gnome-doc-list gnome-doc-list@gnome.org Sent: Thursday, 19 March, 2015 2:54:33 PM Subject: Re: Proposal to make GnomeLove official and move it to developer.gnome.org On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 9:11 AM, Michael Catanzaro mcatanz...@gnome.org wrote: Having multiple conflicting tutorials is confusing to new contributors, and harmful when those two tutorials are incompatible. Disclaimer: I am not a jhbuild beginner. Please find an example other than jhbuild for harmful incompatible tutorials. Regardless of other documentation that existed when the HowDoI was created, it is actively updated as jhbuild changes by Ryan, a developer and contributor to jhbuild. It has proven ideal in a hackfest environment for all levels of user (although an intern at a hackfest can't be classified as a beginner either). It's where I look to see what has changed with jhbuild since the last time I ran it, and is arguably the best source of information for other tutorials whose goal is to *not* conflict. It regularly achieves legitimacy by being replicated on developer.gnome.org , where it's cleverly concealed from beginners performing case-sensitive searches. It brings the perspective of multiple platforms. Mike ___ gnome-doc-list mailing list gnome-doc-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-doc-list ___ gnome-doc-list mailing list gnome-doc-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-doc-list
Re: Proposal to make GnomeLove official and move it to developer.gnome.org
On Thu, 2015-03-19 at 09:54 -0400, Michael Hill wrote: On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 9:11 AM, Michael Catanzaro mcatanz...@gnome.org wrote: Having multiple conflicting tutorials is confusing to new contributors, and harmful when those two tutorials are incompatible. Disclaimer: I am not a jhbuild beginner. Please find an example other than jhbuild for harmful incompatible tutorials. I'm really thinking of jhbuild specifically here. I don't think this is a more general issue for us. Regardless of other documentation that existed when the HowDoI was created, it is actively updated as jhbuild changes by Ryan, a developer and contributor to jhbuild. It has proven ideal in a hackfest environment for all levels of user (although an intern at a hackfest can't be classified as a beginner either). What advantages do you see in this page over GnomeLove/BuildGnome? It's where I look to see what has changed with jhbuild since the last time I ran it, and is arguably the best source of information for other tutorials whose goal is to *not* conflict. Well, where it instructs users to undo changes recommended by GnomeLove/Jhbuild, specifically putting ~/.local/bin into $PATH, that is very problematic. I don't see any harm in modifying $PATH, but if that's really so bad then we should modify the advise of GnomeLove/Jhbuild instead of advising in a completely separate tutorial not to follow the instructions in the other tutorial It regularly achieves legitimacy by being replicated on developer.gnome.org, where it's cleverly concealed from beginners performing case-sensitive searches. It brings the perspective of multiple platforms. The thing is, looking through it I really don't see anything important that's not already covered by GnomeLove/BuildGnome. There is more detail on everything, and a bit of that we could merge into GnomeLove/BuildGnome, but GnomeLove/BuildGnome has all of the necessary information for newcomers in a shorter, easier format. I think the main thing missing from GnomeLove/BuildGnome is a big warning not to use --nodeps or 'jhbuild buildone' before 'jhbuild build'... it's incredible how many helpless users we have on IRC who don't realize that you need to build dependencies. If we don't want to redirect from HowDoI/Jhbuild to GnomeLove/BuildGnome, then I'd like to see it prominently link to GnomeLove/BuildGnome at the top of the page, directing new users to that guide instead. And preferably also undergo a reorganization so that it's no longer in tutorial format. We shouldn't have two different tutorials. Another option would be to give up on the short, easy format if most of us like HowDoI/Jhbuild better, and redirect from GnomeLove/Jhbuild to HowDoI/Jhbuild. That would still be much better than having two different tutorials. Michael ___ gnome-doc-list mailing list gnome-doc-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-doc-list
Re: Proposal to make GnomeLove official and move it to developer.gnome.org
Hi Michael, On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 9:49 AM, Michael Catanzaro mcatanz...@gnome.org wrote: I'm really thinking of jhbuild specifically here. I don't think this is a more general issue for us. What advantages do you see in this page over GnomeLove/BuildGnome? https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2015-February/msg00118.html Mike ___ gnome-doc-list mailing list gnome-doc-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-doc-list
Re: Proposal to make GnomeLove official and move it to developer.gnome.org
Carlos Soriano Sanchez csori...@redhat.com wrote: ... I understand what you mean with removing community maintained, but can be misleading for others. Let me explain: developer.gnome.org is still maintained by the community, but they go through a review process, and gives control to the maintainers. Like any project we have in git. I agree is not that easy to edit, and that can to remove some quick edit from community. I think it's pretty clear that wiki pages are more accessible to contributors than Mallard pages stored in Git. That's why Ryan started his HowDoI initiative, and why the apps website (where most of the pages were rotting) was dropped in favour of using the wiki instead. And it's not just about the ability to make quick edits - people are more inclined to make significant contributions if there is a low barrier to entry. That is what we will miss. But if we make it intelligent, the pages won't need much maintainability. Contributing to Gnome didn't changed that much in the years I have been contributing (3). You're assuming that the documentation you put on developer.gnome.org will not need improvements or elaboration, and will be perfect first time. I'm pretty sure it won't be, and getting contributions from others is often extremely helpful (and unlikely if you go down the Git/Mallard/developer.gnome.org road). Why is a problem the wiki? Why we have that feeling that currently is difficult to maintain the wiki, if we move to a website we are making even more difficult? Seems I'm going to do just the opposite of what we want right? =) Let me explain. For what I saw in this years, the burden of the difficulty is not in editing the wiki, but in the variety of what we have! And I am 100% sure about this from my POV. I edited 5 different jhbuild pages, 2 different guides to get started, 3 guides for git... etc. and everything is scattered. In general I agree that reducing duplication is helpful, but I don't see how or why your proposal is necessary to do that. People will not suddenly ignore pages on the wiki, just because you have official content on developer.gnome.org - the wiki will need to be cleaned up whatever happens. So imagine, I take now a OPW to clean everything of this. In one year we will have the same problem =) I can't be bold in the wiki, I don't feel to be bold in the wiki. A specific example (and this one is what made the topic proposal came to my mind): I wrote for some months BuildGnome alongside removing some guides (reaching an agreement really takes long time) and trying to discuss everything. I finished, and I linked BuildGnome on GnomeLove as the *official* guide. One month after that Ryan Lortie write a full jhbuild guide in HowDoI/Jhbuild because he thought there were no guide for jhbuild! He is a experienced developer and couldn't notice we had 3 jhbuild guides at that point! Clearly we are doing something wrong... So what now? After he spent that much time writing that very well explained guide, I say to him: hey sorry, I'm going to delete because we already have others and in GnomeLove we already have one linked. No, I don't feel like doing it. We can't stop new jhbuild/git tutorials. What I think we have to do is make clear we have a official one, and that needs review to *create* or *modify* it. There we can be bold, because we will have the control, and we will avoid telling people we will remove their material. Wikis are a bit messy sometimes, but that's the price you pay for ease of contribution (and you're not going to be able to ban people from adding pages to the wiki, whatever happens). I wouldn't let the experience with the JHBuild pages put you off trying to manage the other duplicate pages, and I'd be really happy to help you with that if you give me the links. To finalize, can you say to me which pages need that much work from you? It was because they were unmaintained? Or it was because all were scattered and need a big reorder? In the past I've done a big clean up of the GnomeLove page [1], which was unmaintained for some time. I also authored a number of GnomeLove subpages (such as [2, 3, 4]), largely to fill in missing guidance. Could we getting rid of that parts that need change over the time, or write it in a way that doesn't need to change? I'm curious how didn't you notice the same I'm thinking. That those pages actually don't change that much, but is actually the scattered of those which makes it the need to change them. If we do it intelligently, I can imagine that the need to maintain it will be almost null =) Documentation that doesn't get updated sounds like a false goal to me. We should aim to ensure that the GNOME Love pages are actively maintained, and are continually being improved. What does bus factor 1 mean? See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor Allan [1] This is what it looked like before I started work:
Re: Proposal to make GnomeLove official and move it to developer.gnome.org
On 17/03/15 13:33, Carlos Soriano Sanchez wrote: Hi, So after some work in GnomeLove and discussions in the gnome-love list, I would like to make this proposal. Read more here https://wiki.gnome.org/CarlosSoriano/GnomeLoveMoveTask So I would want to have feedback on this idea over this week, since I will take a intern from OPW for it, and the deadline is next Monday. What do you think? =) My 2cents: GnomeLove is a bad name (it's already overlapping with the keyword that we add to bugzilla bugs for newcomers). So I would agree on moving it to .gnome.org as a subdomain, but changing the name, and at the same time making it clear what is for 3rd party developers and what is for Gnome development. Therefore, my proposal would be: 1. Move developer.gnome.org's contents to developer.tech.gnome.org. 2. Move GnomeLove contents to developer.desktop.gnome.org. Hope that helps, Andrés -- ___ gnome-doc-list mailing list gnome-doc-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-doc-list
Re: Proposal to make GnomeLove official and move it to developer.gnome.org
On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 9:11 AM, Michael Catanzaro mcatanz...@gnome.org wrote: Having multiple conflicting tutorials is confusing to new contributors, and harmful when those two tutorials are incompatible. Disclaimer: I am not a jhbuild beginner. Please find an example other than jhbuild for harmful incompatible tutorials. Regardless of other documentation that existed when the HowDoI was created, it is actively updated as jhbuild changes by Ryan, a developer and contributor to jhbuild. It has proven ideal in a hackfest environment for all levels of user (although an intern at a hackfest can't be classified as a beginner either). It's where I look to see what has changed with jhbuild since the last time I ran it, and is arguably the best source of information for other tutorials whose goal is to *not* conflict. It regularly achieves legitimacy by being replicated on developer.gnome.org, where it's cleverly concealed from beginners performing case-sensitive searches. It brings the perspective of multiple platforms. Mike ___ gnome-doc-list mailing list gnome-doc-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-doc-list
Re: Proposal to make GnomeLove official and move it to developer.gnome.org
On Thu, 2015-03-19 at 07:17 -0400, Carlos Soriano Sanchez wrote: I finished, and I linked BuildGnome on GnomeLove as the *official* guide. One month after that Ryan Lortie write a full jhbuild guide in HowDoI/Jhbuild because he thought there were no guide for jhbuild! He is a experienced developer and couldn't notice we had 3 jhbuild guides at that point! Clearly we are doing something wrong... So what now? After he spent that much time writing that very well explained guide, I say to him: hey sorry, I'm going to delete because we already have others and in GnomeLove we already have one linked. Having multiple conflicting tutorials is confusing to new contributors, and harmful when those two tutorials are incompatible. I would much rather we have one and only one introduction to GNOME development. Surely developer.gnome.org is the right place for this. I would love to see the wiki pages replaced by a link to a tutorial on developer.gnome.org. I don't think making the material harder to edit is necessarily problematic: the page should primarily be edited by experienced GNOME developers, and we know how to submit patches for gnome-devel-docs, and when inexperienced users want to edit the page they can use the friendly Got a comment? Spotted an error? Found the instructions unclear? Send feedback about this page on the bottom. (This is not to say that I think the current workflow for updating the developer documentation is ideal, but it's not so bad that we should keep documentation on the wiki instead.) ___ gnome-doc-list mailing list gnome-doc-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-doc-list
Re: Proposal to make GnomeLove official and move it to developer.gnome.org
On Thu, 2015-03-19 at 13:42 +0100, Andres G. Aragoneses wrote: On 17/03/15 13:33, Carlos Soriano Sanchez wrote: Hi, So after some work in GnomeLove and discussions in the gnome-love list, I would like to make this proposal. Read more here https://wiki.gnome.org/CarlosSoriano/GnomeLoveMoveTask So I would want to have feedback on this idea over this week, since I will take a intern from OPW for it, and the deadline is next Monday. What do you think? =) My 2cents: GnomeLove is a bad name (it's already overlapping with the keyword that we add to bugzilla bugs for newcomers). So I would agree on moving it to .gnome.org as a subdomain, but changing the name, and at the same time making it clear what is for 3rd party developers and what is for Gnome development. Therefore, my proposal would be: 1. Move developer.gnome.org's contents to developer.tech.gnome.org. 2. Move GnomeLove contents to developer.desktop.gnome.org. Hope that helps, Andrés I don't agree. developer.gnome.org is already an index linking to HIG, GNOME Platform Demos (*Introductory tutorials to get you started*), Guides, API Reference. Carlos's material belongs under that second category. It just needs a rename to better match its subtitle. Plus, this avoids the need to either buy a double-wildcard TLS certificate (I don't want to think about how expensive that would be) or buy two new ones. ___ gnome-doc-list mailing list gnome-doc-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-doc-list
Re: Proposal to make GnomeLove official and move it to developer.gnome.org
Hi Carlos, On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 10:28 AM, Carlos Soriano Sanchez csori...@redhat.com wrote: I am not testing only how a beginner person that came to a hackfest, given a tutorial on jhbuild and fedora distro, how it successfully builds. This is only the tip of the iceberg. Jhbuild is just a a part of a tool for something much bigger. Discovering and contributing to Gnome. I applaud your efforts to address these issues for beginners. I was trying to correct the misconception held by Michael and others that the goal is to eliminate HowDoI/Jhbuild, a useful tool that isn't *only* for beginners. Mike ___ gnome-doc-list mailing list gnome-doc-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-doc-list
Re: Proposal to make GnomeLove official and move it to developer.gnome.org
Carlos Soriano Sanchez csori...@redhat.com wrote: ... So after some work in GnomeLove and discussions in the gnome-love list, I would like to make this proposal. Read more here https://wiki.gnome.org/CarlosSoriano/GnomeLoveMoveTask So I would want to have feedback on this idea over this week, since I will take a intern from OPW for it, and the deadline is next Monday. What do you think? =) I think this somewhat depends on the overall design of developer.gnome.org, and how you intend to slot the GNOME Love material into it. developer.gnome.org has often struggled due of the lack of a clear audience. When we've discussed this in previous years, there has seemed (to me, at least) a general agreement that the site should focus on third party application developers, rather than GNOME development. One possible way around this would be to have a clear link from developer.gnome.org to the wiki. Or would that be insufficient, somehow? Allan ___ gnome-doc-list mailing list gnome-doc-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-doc-list
Re: Proposal to make GnomeLove official and move it to developer.gnome.org
Hi; On 17 March 2015 at 12:33, Carlos Soriano Sanchez csori...@redhat.com wrote: So after some work in GnomeLove and discussions in the gnome-love list, I would like to make this proposal. Read more here https://wiki.gnome.org/CarlosSoriano/GnomeLoveMoveTask So I would want to have feedback on this idea over this week, since I will take a intern from OPW for it, and the deadline is next Monday. What do you think? =) Hope you like the idea. I'm a little bit worried that you're trading off the ability to easily keep the page up to date with a more convoluted process that requires learning Mallard, committing to a Git repository, and then updating the page on d.g.o. You note this as well, but then you mention Getting started with GTK+ which does not really apply in the same way as building and contributing to GNOME — the scope and scale of the two efforts are clearly not similar. Why is having a page on the wiki a problem? Legitimacy is provided by being on the gnome.org domain, not whether the page is on a wiki. Would having a prominent link on developer.gnome.org solve the issue of the Google page ranking, while keeping the page easily editable? Ciao, Emmanuele. -- https://www.bassi.io [@] ebassi [@gmail.com] ___ gnome-doc-list mailing list gnome-doc-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-doc-list
Re: Proposal to make GnomeLove official and move it to developer.gnome.org
Magdalen Berns m.be...@thismagpie.com wrote: ... New jhbuild/git/whatever tutorials will came up... people won't find the appropriate one given that the wiki is not official. Echo this. The developer.gnome jhbuild instructions are quite misleading because they are not up to date. Yet, this is where newcomers are rightfully, most likely to look first and to trust most. I think that jhbuild is a bit different to the other GNOME Love material, due to the fact that there is already a manual that is hosted on developer.gnome.org. My position on that hasn't changed since it was last discussed on ddl - I think it's a good idea to consolidate our jhbuild documentation around the manual. The question we're discussing here (to my understanding) is whether to move the rest of the GNOME Love material to the wiki. ... Carlos seems to be doing a good job of empathising with newcomers in this proposal and personally, I think his assessment is pretty on the money. Tutorials need to be trustworthy, current, comprehensive and provide step by step guides to really be able to help a newcomer get to grips with a concept or skill in certain cases e.g. jhbuild. It sounds like one motivation for this proposal is to remove the community maintained nature of the GNOME Love pages - so it changes from something that anyone can fix to something that, in practice, only Carlos will work on. It hasn't been made clear to me why this is desirable. Are there problems with hosting these pages on the wiki, other than people not being able to find them? How will hosting the pages on developer.gnome.org ensure that they are any more current than they are already? Wikis aren't perfect, but they do have the advantage of ease of contribution. In the past I've invested a non-trivial amount of time into the GNOME Love documentation - something that I probably wouldn't have done if it wasn't on wiki.gnome.org. My personal view is that the GNOME Love pages shouldn't have a bus factor of 1. Allan ___ gnome-doc-list mailing list gnome-doc-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-doc-list
Re: Proposal to make GnomeLove official and move it to developer.gnome.org
, Carlos Soriano Sanchez csori...@redhat.com wrote: So if we continue with the wiki, most of the points I pointed before continue to be a problem... New jhbuild/git/whatever tutorials will came up... I'm not sure why this is an issue... it is perfectly acceptable for you to manage the GnomeLove area of the wiki. people won't find the appropriate one given that the wiki is not official. But isn't that just a matter of keeping an eye on the GnomeLove page, to make sure it points to the right places? i.e. people say: it's a wiki, just modify it! Which is true, but I don't think we want that for something like this. Some people will prefer one tutorial over the other, and we will continue to link different tutorials and continue maintaining all of them and having to deal with a mix set up of the newcomers and newcomers will continue to be confused going back and forward on different guides. We can agree on something like this wiki tutorial is the one we recommend, but we can't enforce it at all if we not move to a official page like developers.gnome.org While areas on the wiki aren't formally governed, there are informal rules, and I don't see why you couldn't take a de factor editor role for the GNOME Love pages. So if it is a matter of logical splitting about 3rd party apps and Gnome contribution, I don't think it matters that much in practice no? It impacts the overall design of the site. It also affects who will contribute to the GNOME Love documentation. What do you propose to fix these problems if not? This is the only idea that came to my mind. To me, the main issue is one of navigation, which can be solved with a prominent link from developer.gnome.org to wiki.gnome.org/GnomeLove. I'd also suggest that you be bold when it comes to taking control of the GNOME Love pages. :) Allan [1] https://wiki.gnome.org/CarlosSoriano/GnomeLoveMoveTask ___ gnome-doc-list mailing list gnome-doc-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-doc-list
Re: Proposal to make GnomeLove official and move it to developer.gnome.org
Completely agree with this idea :) 2015-03-17 16:31 GMT+01:00 Magdalen Berns m.be...@thismagpie.com: +1 On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:33 PM, Carlos Soriano Sanchez csori...@redhat.com wrote: Hi, So after some work in GnomeLove and discussions in the gnome-love list, I would like to make this proposal. Read more here https://wiki.gnome.org/CarlosSoriano/GnomeLoveMoveTask So I would want to have feedback on this idea over this week, since I will take a intern from OPW for it, and the deadline is next Monday. What do you think? =) Hope you like the idea. Cheers, Carlos Soriano ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-l...@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-l...@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ gnome-doc-list mailing list gnome-doc-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-doc-list
