Re: [GNU-linux-libre] ppc64el support in endorsed distros

[Andreas Grapentin]

On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 08:02:53AM -0400, Donald Robertson wrote:
> Wow, that's amazing. I really look forward to seeing the image.


Hello Donald,

Apologies for the delay, grub gave me more trouble than I anticipated.

The good news is, that the VM is now finished and available for
everyone to try out:
  https://mirror.grapentin.org/parabola-ports/powerpc64le/

A signature file to verify the image validity and a short README file
with boot intructions and login credentials is also included.

I'm looking forward to any feedback, and would like to open the floor to
any discussions about the future of the port :)

Best,
Andreas



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Re: [GNU-linux-libre] ppc64el support in endorsed distros

[Donald Robertson]

On 06/17/2018 08:52 AM, Andreas Grapentin wrote:
> 
> Hello Donald,
> 
> I am happy to announce that we have managed to successfully bootstrap
> parabola for powerpc64le. I attached a screenshot of the first
> interactive session of the first successful virtualized boot.
> 
> It's of course going to be a lot of work to extend this preliminary port
> to a usable distribution - and we will need to talk about how this work
> is going to be organized - but at the moment the port is at least
> self-hosting, reasonably self-contained, follows the same packaging
> guidelines as mainline parabola, and was created entirely on parabola
> using only free software.
> 
> I'll be back early next week with more information and a downloadable
> virtual machine image for everyone to take a look at. My internet
> connection at home is unfortunately too unreliable for uploading the
> package repositories and the VM image, but I wanted to keep my promise
> of delivering something this week ;)
> 
> Best,
> Andreas

Wow, that's amazing. I really look forward to seeing the image.


-- 
Donald R. Robertson, III, J.D.
Licensing & Compliance Manager
Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin Street, Fifth Floor
Boston, MA 02110
Phone +1-617-542-5942
Fax +1-617-542-2652 ex. 56



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Re: [GNU-linux-libre] ppc64el support in endorsed distros

[Andreas Grapentin]

Hello Donald,

I am happy to announce that we have managed to successfully bootstrap
parabola for powerpc64le. I attached a screenshot of the first
interactive session of the first successful virtualized boot.

It's of course going to be a lot of work to extend this preliminary port
to a usable distribution - and we will need to talk about how this work
is going to be organized - but at the moment the port is at least
self-hosting, reasonably self-contained, follows the same packaging
guidelines as mainline parabola, and was created entirely on parabola
using only free software.

I'll be back early next week with more information and a downloadable
virtual machine image for everyone to take a look at. My internet
connection at home is unfortunately too unreliable for uploading the
package repositories and the VM image, but I wanted to keep my promise
of delivering something this week ;)

Best,
Andreas


On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 04:51:54PM -0400, Donald Robertson wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> 
> There's been some interest in having an endorsed distro with ppc64el
> support for IBM Power systems, similar to what Debian makes available
> . My understanding is that currently
> none of our endorsed distros have this available. So we're looking to
> see if one would be a good candidate for adding support, or possibly if
> there is a distro out there that currently supports it and would be a
> good candidate for endorsement. If a distro was interested in adding
> support, there might be a group that could help with that work. Thanks
> for any help you all can provide.
> -- 
> Donald R. Robertson, III, J.D.
> Licensing & Compliance Manager
> Free Software Foundation
> 51 Franklin Street, Fifth Floor
> Boston, MA 02110
> Phone +1-617-542-5942
> Fax +1-617-542-2652 ex. 56
> 

-- 

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Re: [GNU-linux-libre] ppc64el support in endorsed distros

[Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli]

On Sat, 9 Jun 2018 11:18:17 +0200
Andreas Grapentin  wrote:

> Any setup would work for me where I have physical access to the
> machine, or at least physical access to a USB port and the power
> switch.
This can also be done remotely:
- For the USB port you could use a reliable Single Board Computer(SBC).
  For instance An Olimex Lime2 could work if you use a microSD only to
  boot, and use a regular HDD for the OS. The issue is that microSD
  have a tendency to corrupt the filesystem on them when the power is
  cut and put back. You then connect the USB device port to the Talos
  computer and emulate an USB key on the Single Board Computer (SBC)
  through the USB device port.
- For the power switch you could try to wire the power button to the
  SBC through some relays or something like that.

Basically the idea is to use an SBC that is well supported by Parabola
as a BMC (Baseboard Management Controller).

If you use such setup, you should could try to test that at home
before. I'm planning to setup something like the setup described above
to power up my compilation desktop machine remotely.

Alternatively the Talos mainboards should also have a BMC, but I don't
know if it has an USB device/OTG port that is connected to the powerPC
host.

Raptor engineering also developed some free software test system that
enables to do some testing on Coreboot (such as boot tests and so on).
Unfortunately they use a raspberry pi, so it would be a good idea to
try to use another Single Board Computer (SBC) with their code.

Denis.


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Re: [GNU-linux-libre] ppc64el support in endorsed distros

[Luke]

On 06/14/2018 05:58 AM, Andreas Grapentin wrote:
>
> On Sat, Jun 09, 2018 at 05:27:30AM -0400, bill-auger wrote:
>> oh so you are volunteering to move to boston Andreas?
> I was hoping a remote position would work ;)
>
> But in all seriousness, I do think parabola would benefit from a
> full-time dedicated developer. But that person would require a salary.
> I do not know if the FSF or any other entitiy would be willing to pay
> that salary, but it might be worth investigating.
>
> -A
>
>
I've always considered one or two full time devs a good idea for
long-term stability of any distro or project. Many other free software
projects do have that, sponsored by respective foundations and/or
technical support.
You should ask Technounethical / Ceata about that.*

*mic-drop* I'll see myself out. ;)**
*

Re: [GNU-linux-libre] ppc64el support in endorsed distros

[Andreas Grapentin]

On Sat, Jun 09, 2018 at 05:27:30AM -0400, bill-auger wrote:
> oh so you are volunteering to move to boston Andreas?

I was hoping a remote position would work ;)

But in all seriousness, I do think parabola would benefit from a
full-time dedicated developer. But that person would require a salary.
I do not know if the FSF or any other entitiy would be willing to pay
that salary, but it might be worth investigating.

-A


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Re: [GNU-linux-libre] ppc64el support in endorsed distros

[bill-auger]

oh so you are volunteering to move to boston Andreas?

i was imagining something like your final thought would be feasible because the
FSF tech team is active in their own freenode channel most of each day as a
standard routine

the original message mentioned that there could be some outside help - maybe
that is the manufacturer or i dunno - i dont remember any follow-up on that


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Re: [GNU-linux-libre] ppc64el support in endorsed distros

[Andreas Grapentin]

Any setup would work for me where I have physical access to the
machine, or at least physical access to a USB port and the power switch.

If for legal reasons parabola can not own the machine, I would be fine
with the FSF owning it and us having physical access, or me owning it
and having physical access. I did consider buying one, but at the moment
they are prohibitively expensive to me.

I could also imagine a situation where someone from parabola would be
appointed something like "ppc64le shepherd" at the FSF, or maybe even
hired as a ppc64le distribution manager, and could get access to a FSF
owned Talos machine under that role.

A shell onto a Talos machine, for example into a already setup debian
installation, might work, but could be a lot of trouble without the
necessary remote administrative tools (insert external media, hard reset
capabilities, etc.). Those issues could be worked around by having
someone with pysical access to the machine we could ask to perform
certain tasks like shutting down, but this could of course introduce
some delay and inconvenience.

lots of options exist. Maybe we can work out if one of these is feasible :)

Best,
Andreas


On Sat, Jun 09, 2018 at 04:51:40AM -0400, bill-auger wrote:
> i should append andreas's last message by saying that he was probably not
> suggesting that the FSF should donate a machine to parabola - parabola is
> actually not taking donations as an entity - it would surely be sufficient if
> the FSF bought one of these for themselves and gave andreas and ebrasca a 
> shell
> on it



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Re: [GNU-linux-libre] ppc64el support in endorsed distros

[bill-auger]

o/c i could be wrong :) - i was *totally* presuming that when you turn one of
these on - you do not see only a blinking underscore and 

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Re: [GNU-linux-libre] ppc64el support in endorsed distros

[bill-auger]

i should append andreas's last message by saying that he was probably not
suggesting that the FSF should donate a machine to parabola - parabola is
actually not taking donations as an entity - it would surely be sufficient if
the FSF bought one of these for themselves and gave andreas and ebrasca a shell
on it


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Re: [GNU-linux-libre] ppc64el support in endorsed distros

[Andreas Grapentin]

Thank you for the pointer. :)

The toolchain situation has already been sorted out and the bootstrap
process for powerpc64le is almost complete. I'll be back with more
information as soon as we have a first booting VM (probably somewhere
around next week)

It would be immensely helpful if we had some more real hardware to work
with. ebrasca owns a TalosII machine, but it is currently under repair.
If we could get funding for a second Talos from the FSF, we would be
able to get this port underway a lot quicker. Does anyone know if this
would be a feasible request?

Best,
Andreas

On Fri, Jun 08, 2018 at 11:58:04PM +0200, Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli wrote:
> On Thu, 31 May 2018 12:46:32 +0200
> Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli  wrote:
> > == Cross toolchains ==
> > In Parabola we have crosstool-ng but I didn't spend enough time
> > on it to successfully create a toolchain.
> > > $ pacman -sS crosstool
> > > pcr/crosstool-ng 1.23.0-1.parabola1
> > > Versatile (cross-)toolchain generator, with Linux-libre kernel
> > > support pcr/crosstool-ng-git 1.22.0.r21.g2d3c70d-1.parabola2
> > > Versatile cross-toolchain generator, with Linux-libre kernel
> > > support  
> Some days ago, I tried pcr/crosstool-ng on an x86_64 machine with 8G of
> ram, to build a gcc-4 cross toolchain for ARM with no libc (bare
> metal). It is very easy to use, this time it worked out of the box.
> 
> It also seems to be able to generate toolchains for powerPC 64bit
> little endian but I didn't test that.
> 
> Denis.



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Re: [GNU-linux-libre] ppc64el support in endorsed distros

[Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli]

On Thu, 31 May 2018 12:46:32 +0200
Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli  wrote:
> == Cross toolchains ==
> In Parabola we have crosstool-ng but I didn't spend enough time
> on it to successfully create a toolchain.
> > $ pacman -sS crosstool
> > pcr/crosstool-ng 1.23.0-1.parabola1
> > Versatile (cross-)toolchain generator, with Linux-libre kernel
> > support pcr/crosstool-ng-git 1.22.0.r21.g2d3c70d-1.parabola2
> > Versatile cross-toolchain generator, with Linux-libre kernel
> > support  
Some days ago, I tried pcr/crosstool-ng on an x86_64 machine with 8G of
ram, to build a gcc-4 cross toolchain for ARM with no libc (bare
metal). It is very easy to use, this time it worked out of the box.

It also seems to be able to generate toolchains for powerPC 64bit
little endian but I didn't test that.

Denis.


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Re: [GNU-linux-libre] ppc64el support in endorsed distros

[Andreas Grapentin]

Ha, this is so interesting. I have done almost the same thing for the
parabola riscv64 port:

https://git.parabola.nu/~oaken-source/parabola-riscv64-bootstrap.git/

However, the powerpc64le port process currently segfaults in glibc -
I'll check out what you're doing differently, maybe that gets us
forward.

Thanks for the pointers!

-Andreas


On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 03:34:01PM -0300, Matias Fonzo wrote:
> 
> Hello Denis,
> 
> The maintainer of Dragora GNU/Linux-Libre here.
> 
> Since 2012 I have started to re-do the distribution from scratch, the
> method that I propose is that the distribution can be built from
> scratch.  The method consists in simple shell scripts but well-organized
> in stages.  For example, the stage 0 build a cross-compiler, the other
> current stages are designed as a previous steps to get the final
> system.  Something like LFS and CLFS does, but I consider the method is
> a bit beyond of those (because I understand how LFS/CLFS works).
> Unlike LFS/CLFS, there two important aspects, 1) all the components are
> 100% free software. 2) the method is agnostic, you can modify, create or
> add the steps that you want to achieve for a stage (for example, to
> create other gnu/linux distributions).  When I said that the method is
> agnostic, this is especially for the stage 0, the cross-compiler.  This
> does not contain hard coded paths.
> 
> The independence of the cross compiler is such that I have managed to
> produce several cross compilers that use a non-convenient form.  The
> first phase, where a cross-compiler for the native architecture is
> created; and the second phase, where the produced cross-compiler is
> used to create other compilers for the different supported
> architectures.  The only cons maybe for you or other people, is that
> the set is based on the musl C library.
> 
> I've published a recent version, which contains support for the
> ppc64le, if you want to give a try:
> 
> http://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/dragora-users/2018-05/msg0.html
> 
> I can provide more information about the bootstrap method, etc. Let me
> know!
> 
> On Thu, 31 May 2018 12:46:32 +0200
> Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli  wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 18 May 2018 10:41:41 +0200
> > Andreas Grapentin  wrote:
> > 
> > Hi,
> >  
> > > I have been involved in that a bit, and I think the current problem
> > > is creating a suitable cross toolchain to start the port in
> > > earnest. If we had people with experience and ideas in that regard,
> > > that might me very helpful.  
> > I'm very interested in being able to create arbitrary toolchains from
> > an FSDG distribution, as I need it to be able to compile older
> > (ARM) kernels, compile lm32 code for some AMD processor (SMU) present
> > in AMD CPUs, etc.
> > 
> > == Cross toolchains ==
> > In Parabola we have crosstool-ng but I didn't spend enough time
> > on it to successfully create a toolchain.
> > > $ pacman -sS crosstool
> > > pcr/crosstool-ng 1.23.0-1.parabola1
> > > Versatile (cross-)toolchain generator, with Linux-libre kernel
> > > support pcr/crosstool-ng-git 1.22.0.r21.g2d3c70d-1.parabola2
> > > Versatile cross-toolchain generator, with Linux-libre kernel
> > > support  
> > 
> > Another approach would be to add support for that architecture in Guix
> > and build the toolchain through that.
> > 
> > I remember seeing compatibility the results of test in tables with
> > the combination of different versions of glibc, gcc, and binutils for
> > each architecture. Typcally, with x86, combining most of the
> > glibc, gcc, and binutils versions will work, whereas you might hit
> > problematic bugs when you do that for other less-scrutinized
> > architectures.
> > 
> > In any case, building a toolchain is not enough, you also need it to
> > work enough to bootstrap enough userspace to be able to boot (and
> > then be able to build packages and the toolchain on the booted
> > system).
> > 
> > == Using another distro ==
> > Another approach would be to use any GNU/Linux distribution (which is
> > not necessarily FSDG compliant) that supports ppc64 little-endian, run
> > it in qemu, and with it bootstrap a Parabola for ppc64 little-endian.
> > 
> > In one hand this may seem ethically acceptable[1]:
> > > But there is one special case where using some nonfree software, and
> > > even urging others to use it, can be a positive thing. That's when
> > > the use of the nonfree software aims directly at putting an end to
> > > the use of that very same nonfree software.  
> > 
> > But if you see it with another point of view it might be problematic
> > as it would be preferable not have to run non-FSDG distributions to
> > port FSDG distributions to other architectures in general. And porting
> > Parabola to ppc64 little-endian will not enable to avoid running
> > non-FSDG distributions when porting to a different architecture.
> > 
> > It would also be nice to be able to create arbitrary toolchains with
> > FSDG compliant software.
> > 
> > Refe

Re: [GNU-linux-libre] ppc64el support in endorsed distros

[Matias Fonzo]

Hello Denis,

The maintainer of Dragora GNU/Linux-Libre here.

Since 2012 I have started to re-do the distribution from scratch, the
method that I propose is that the distribution can be built from
scratch.  The method consists in simple shell scripts but well-organized
in stages.  For example, the stage 0 build a cross-compiler, the other
current stages are designed as a previous steps to get the final
system.  Something like LFS and CLFS does, but I consider the method is
a bit beyond of those (because I understand how LFS/CLFS works).
Unlike LFS/CLFS, there two important aspects, 1) all the components are
100% free software. 2) the method is agnostic, you can modify, create or
add the steps that you want to achieve for a stage (for example, to
create other gnu/linux distributions).  When I said that the method is
agnostic, this is especially for the stage 0, the cross-compiler.  This
does not contain hard coded paths.

The independence of the cross compiler is such that I have managed to
produce several cross compilers that use a non-convenient form.  The
first phase, where a cross-compiler for the native architecture is
created; and the second phase, where the produced cross-compiler is
used to create other compilers for the different supported
architectures.  The only cons maybe for you or other people, is that
the set is based on the musl C library.

I've published a recent version, which contains support for the
ppc64le, if you want to give a try:

http://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/dragora-users/2018-05/msg0.html

I can provide more information about the bootstrap method, etc. Let me
know!

On Thu, 31 May 2018 12:46:32 +0200
Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli  wrote:

> On Fri, 18 May 2018 10:41:41 +0200
> Andreas Grapentin  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
>  
> > I have been involved in that a bit, and I think the current problem
> > is creating a suitable cross toolchain to start the port in
> > earnest. If we had people with experience and ideas in that regard,
> > that might me very helpful.  
> I'm very interested in being able to create arbitrary toolchains from
> an FSDG distribution, as I need it to be able to compile older
> (ARM) kernels, compile lm32 code for some AMD processor (SMU) present
> in AMD CPUs, etc.
> 
> == Cross toolchains ==
> In Parabola we have crosstool-ng but I didn't spend enough time
> on it to successfully create a toolchain.
> > $ pacman -sS crosstool
> > pcr/crosstool-ng 1.23.0-1.parabola1
> > Versatile (cross-)toolchain generator, with Linux-libre kernel
> > support pcr/crosstool-ng-git 1.22.0.r21.g2d3c70d-1.parabola2
> > Versatile cross-toolchain generator, with Linux-libre kernel
> > support  
> 
> Another approach would be to add support for that architecture in Guix
> and build the toolchain through that.
> 
> I remember seeing compatibility the results of test in tables with
> the combination of different versions of glibc, gcc, and binutils for
> each architecture. Typcally, with x86, combining most of the
> glibc, gcc, and binutils versions will work, whereas you might hit
> problematic bugs when you do that for other less-scrutinized
> architectures.
> 
> In any case, building a toolchain is not enough, you also need it to
> work enough to bootstrap enough userspace to be able to boot (and
> then be able to build packages and the toolchain on the booted
> system).
> 
> == Using another distro ==
> Another approach would be to use any GNU/Linux distribution (which is
> not necessarily FSDG compliant) that supports ppc64 little-endian, run
> it in qemu, and with it bootstrap a Parabola for ppc64 little-endian.
> 
> In one hand this may seem ethically acceptable[1]:
> > But there is one special case where using some nonfree software, and
> > even urging others to use it, can be a positive thing. That's when
> > the use of the nonfree software aims directly at putting an end to
> > the use of that very same nonfree software.  
> 
> But if you see it with another point of view it might be problematic
> as it would be preferable not have to run non-FSDG distributions to
> port FSDG distributions to other architectures in general. And porting
> Parabola to ppc64 little-endian will not enable to avoid running
> non-FSDG distributions when porting to a different architecture.
> 
> It would also be nice to be able to create arbitrary toolchains with
> FSDG compliant software.
> 
> References:
> ---
> [1]https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/is-ever-good-use-nonfree-program.html
> 
> Denis.

Re: [GNU-linux-libre] ppc64el support in endorsed distros

[Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli]

On Fri, 18 May 2018 10:41:41 +0200
Andreas Grapentin  wrote:

Hi,
 
> I have been involved in that a bit, and I think the current problem is
> creating a suitable cross toolchain to start the port in earnest. If
> we had people with experience and ideas in that regard, that might me
> very helpful.
I'm very interested in being able to create arbitrary toolchains from
an FSDG distribution, as I need it to be able to compile older
(ARM) kernels, compile lm32 code for some AMD processor (SMU) present in
AMD CPUs, etc.

== Cross toolchains ==
In Parabola we have crosstool-ng but I didn't spend enough time
on it to successfully create a toolchain.
> $ pacman -sS crosstool
> pcr/crosstool-ng 1.23.0-1.parabola1
> Versatile (cross-)toolchain generator, with Linux-libre kernel
> support pcr/crosstool-ng-git 1.22.0.r21.g2d3c70d-1.parabola2
> Versatile cross-toolchain generator, with Linux-libre kernel
> support

Another approach would be to add support for that architecture in Guix
and build the toolchain through that.

I remember seeing compatibility the results of test in tables with
the combination of different versions of glibc, gcc, and binutils for
each architecture. Typcally, with x86, combining most of the
glibc, gcc, and binutils versions will work, whereas you might hit
problematic bugs when you do that for other less-scrutinized
architectures.

In any case, building a toolchain is not enough, you also need it to
work enough to bootstrap enough userspace to be able to boot (and
then be able to build packages and the toolchain on the booted
system).

== Using another distro ==
Another approach would be to use any GNU/Linux distribution (which is
not necessarily FSDG compliant) that supports ppc64 little-endian, run
it in qemu, and with it bootstrap a Parabola for ppc64 little-endian.

In one hand this may seem ethically acceptable[1]:
> But there is one special case where using some nonfree software, and
> even urging others to use it, can be a positive thing. That's when
> the use of the nonfree software aims directly at putting an end to
> the use of that very same nonfree software.

But if you see it with another point of view it might be problematic as
it would be preferable not have to run non-FSDG distributions to port
FSDG distributions to other architectures in general. And porting
Parabola to ppc64 little-endian will not enable to avoid running
non-FSDG distributions when porting to a different architecture.

It would also be nice to be able to create arbitrary toolchains with
FSDG compliant software.

References:
---
[1]https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/is-ever-good-use-nonfree-program.html

Denis.


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Re: [GNU-linux-libre] ppc64el support in endorsed distros

[Andreas Grapentin]

Hi,

On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 04:59:05PM -0400, bill-auger wrote:
> indeed parabola is very interested in these new open design platforms

I second that :)

> coincidentally, ebrasca just received his brand new talosII and has
> begun porting parabola to POWER9 - if there is help available, im sure
> he could use it because he is finding documentation to be scarce

I have been involved in that a bit, and I think the current problem is
creating a suitable cross toolchain to start the port in earnest. If we
had people with experience and ideas in that regard, that might me very
helpful.

Best,
-Andreas (oaken-source)


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Re: [GNU-linux-libre] ppc64el support in endorsed distros

[bill-auger]

indeed parabola is very interested in these new open design platforms

coincidentally, ebrasca just received his brand new talosII and has
begun porting parabola to POWER9 - if there is help available, im sure
he could use it because he is finding documentation to be scarce

as a side note, oaken-source has also made a working prototype of a
RISC-V port recently



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