Hi Brandon,
On Wed, Nov 06, 2019 at 11:59:04AM +, Brandon Invergo wrote:
> Also, it is true that you and the others have been involved longer than
> me, but please do not in turn minimize the time and effort I have
> invested in GNU, especially in the thankless, mundane, boring
>
Lets please drop this tangent of what was moderated or not, it has
been raised and and it has been resolved. There have been several
messages re-raising it, it doesn't further any discussions, so we
might as well drop it.
There is plenty of transparancy, Brandon has been very open about it.
Despite immense presure, and continued attacks from all sides.
Continuing this, literally, tit-for-tat, thread isn't beneficial. So
how about we drop this subject, and discuss the original topic
instead?
Le mercredi 6 novembre 2019, 12:17:18 CET Marcel a écrit :
> On 11/6/19 5:51 PM, Andy Wingo wrote:
> >> Can you explain how “moderation was being used in a biased manner”,
> >> giving specific examples?
> >
> > I am also interested in answers to this question.
>
> You can look at the arbitrary
On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 9:42 PM Mike Gerwitz wrote:
>
> On Tue, Nov 05, 2019 at 15:45:40 -0500, Thompson, David wrote:
> > I hope you can see the terrible optics this has. Something has
> > happened behind the scenes, shortly after you and Mike became
> > moderators, that makes it appear as
Ludovic,
Ludovic Courtès writes:
> I feel bad that you’re characterizing us this way. You’re talking about
> people who’ve dedicated many years or their lives to GNU (more than you
> did!) and still pour huge amounts of energy into it.
>
> That you disagree with what we do is fine; that you
Hi Brandon,
Brandon Invergo skribis:
> Andy Wingo writes:
>
>>> Who is “we” in “we have decided” above?
>>
>> I don't think this question has been answered. Brandon, could you
>> clarify please?
>
>>> Can you explain how “moderation was being used in a biased manner”,
>>> giving specific
Andy Wingo writes:
>> Who is “we” in “we have decided” above?
>
> I don't think this question has been answered. Brandon, could you
> clarify please?
>> Can you explain how “moderation was being used in a biased manner”,
>> giving specific examples?
>
> I am also interested in answers to this
On 11/6/19 5:51 PM, Andy Wingo wrote:
>> Can you explain how “moderation was being used in a biased manner”,
>> giving specific examples?
>
> I am also interested in answers to this question.
You can look at the arbitrary and unexplained censorship of my messages
as an example of how it was
Hello,
On Sun 03 Nov 2019 22:34, Ludovic Courtès writes:
> Brandon Invergo skribis:
>
>> For the past month or so, every message to the list has been subject to
>> moderation, so-called "emergency moderation". It has become clear that
>> the moderation was being used in a biased manner. We
On Tue, Nov 05, 2019 at 15:45:40 -0500, Thompson, David wrote:
> I hope you can see the terrible optics this has. Something has
> happened behind the scenes, shortly after you and Mike became
> moderators, that makes it appear as though Carlos and Mark were
> retaliated against for being critical
Le mardi 5 novembre 2019, 22:17:07 CET Brandon Invergo a écrit :
> We do have a problem with someone under moderation who is sending
> messages off-list. It probably would have happened eventually anyway,
> no matter who was moderating. Anyway, I do not know how to moderate
> that. If you have
Le mardi 5 novembre 2019 18:17:16 CET, vous avez écrit :
> Samuel Thibault writes:
> > Wow, this is so welcoming a community...
> >
> > Samuel
>
> Ruben has been placed under moderation and I rejected the message that
> you are referring to. If you received it, it's because he sent it to
> you
Le mardi 5 novembre 2019 18:17:16 CET, vous avez écrit :
> Samuel Thibault writes:
> > Wow, this is so welcoming a community...
> >
> > Samuel
I initially thought that was in answer to a message of mine, because my MUA
placed it under…
> Ruben has been placed under moderation and I rejected
Le mardi 5 novembre 2019, 18:09:08 CET Samuel Thibault a écrit :
> Wow, this is so welcoming a community...
>
> Samuel
I don’t know if my MUA is failing… and understood you were talking about Ruben
and not me only thanks to headers (now I’m even more strongly against single
Hi,
On Tue, Nov 05, 2019 at 04:51:09PM -0500, Thompson, David wrote:
> If you're sticking to the same guidelines, what's the harm in allowing
> the former moderators to continue doing the same?
For the record, I don't want to. As you can probably understand it
will take a bit of time before I
Brandon,
On 11/05/2019 03:38 PM, Brandon Invergo wrote:
> That is not true, and it is an unfair accusation of Carlos and Mark. As
> I just wrote in another message, unfounded accusations will get us
> nowhere. Please let's refrain from building up false narratives.
Most probably you are
Thompson, David writes:
> I hope you can see the terrible optics this has. Something has
> happened behind the scenes, shortly after you and Mike became
> moderators, that makes it appear as though Carlos and Mark were
> retaliated against for being critical of GNU leadership.
Optics are
On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 4:17 PM Brandon Invergo wrote:
>
> Thompson, David writes:
>
> > I hope you can see the terrible optics this has. Something has
> > happened behind the scenes, shortly after you and Mike became
> > moderators, that makes it appear as though Carlos and Mark were
> >
On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 3:33 PM Brandon Invergo wrote:
>
> Thompson, David writes:
>
> > So you ousted the moderators that added you as moderators? How
> > lovely. The discourse here has gotten considerably worse since.
> > Surely a coincidence.
>
> As I have made abundantly clear, I do not
Dora Scilipoti writes:
> How and by whom they were appointed remains unknown. Certainly not by
> the GNU project. So the most plausible answer is that they took it by force.
That is not true, and it is an unfair accusation of Carlos and Mark. As
I just wrote in another message, unfounded
Thompson, David writes:
> So you ousted the moderators that added you as moderators? How
> lovely. The discourse here has gotten considerably worse since.
> Surely a coincidence.
As I have made abundantly clear, I do not intend to discuss internal GNU
matters on a public list. I invite you
> That is quite the misrepresentation of the situation. How moderators
> are assigned is done by the GNU project, not by the person or persons
> moderating the list -- so nobody got "ousted".
This list was created +30 years ago by the founder and early members of
the GNU Project. It was
On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 1:54 PM Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> "Thompson, David" wrote:
> > So you ousted the moderators that added you as moderators? How lovely.
> > The discourse here has gotten considerably worse since. Surely a
> > coincidence.
>
> FWIW, I do not think
"Thompson, David" wrote:
> So you ousted the moderators that added you as moderators? How lovely. The
> discourse here has gotten considerably worse since. Surely a coincidence.
FWIW, I do not think so, on the contrary, Iʼm pleased to see even a small shift
in a discourse from
> How moderators
> are assigned is done by the GNU project, not by the person or persons
> moderating the list -- so nobody got "ousted".
This list was created +30 years ago by the founder and early members of
the GNU Project as a place where people would be free to express their
concerns and
On 2019-11-05 02:59, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
A bit more than 24 hours later, two things have become clear to me:
that
Mark and Carlos were indeed doing a good moderation job, and that by
not
doing any moderation, you’ve opened the flood gates and silenced the
rest of us.
Funny though, I'm
So you ousted the moderators that added you as moderators? How
lovely. The discourse here has gotten considerably worse since.
Surely a coincidence.
That is quite the misrepresentation of the situation. How moderators
are assigned is done by the GNU project, not by the person or
On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 12:41 PM Brandon Invergo wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> For the past month or so, every message to the list has been subject to
> moderation, so-called "emergency moderation". It has become clear that
> the moderation was being used in a biased manner. We have decided to
>
Le mardi 5 novembre 2019 18:11:25 CET, vous avez écrit :
> On 11/5/19 12:11 PM, Alexandre François Garreau wrote:
> > Stop that. Insults are even more meaningless now you’ve kept repeating
> > them
>
> Hes an animal and your an idiot if you think you can reason with him.
You and me are both
Samuel Thibault writes:
> Wow, this is so welcoming a community...
>
> Samuel
Ruben has been placed under moderation and I rejected the message that
you are referring to. If you received it, it's because he sent it to
you personally (I guess by scraping the email addresses of everyone who
has
Le mardi 5 novembre 2019 18:04:56 CET, vous avez écrit :
> How about this. You are a [insults insults insults etc…]
Stop that. Insults are even more meaningless now you’ve kept repeating them
that much for the same irrational reasons (anyway insults are always
irrational, as most of time it
Wow, this is so welcoming a community...
Samuel
> I’m surprised it’s news to you that Ruben (among others) is attacking
> people personally; that’s something you could have learned from the
> previous moderators.
Maybe their definition of "personal attack" is broader and not quite as
specific as yours or the previous moderators.
> How did
Le mardi 5 novembre 2019, 11:59:18 CET Ludovic Courtès a écrit :
> silenced the rest of us.
How’s that? Pre-moderation were off, afaiu.
Also, what likely best silenced some people is likely the previous hours and
timezones and the sleep that commonly occurs for them during them.
> In [24
On 11/5/19 10:34 PM, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> Sure, we’ll talk about governance (no quotes) as much as possible,
> meaning as much as the signal-to-noise ratio doesn’t prevent that.
> Governance is very much on-topic for this list.
One person's noise is another person's signal. Also, as Heinlein
Le mardi 5 novembre 2019 17:30:18 CET, vous avez écrit :
> Alexandre François Garreau writes:
> > Aren’t these two statements contradictory (as governance is made of by
> > people, and currently a single one)? as it was stated before (for
> > instance by Dora)
> Consider the difference between
Alexandre François Garreau writes:
> Aren’t these two statements contradictory (as governance is made of by
> people,
> and currently a single one)? as it was stated before (for instance by Dora)
Consider the difference between "how does the consensus model compare to
the committee model?"
Le mardi 5 novembre 2019, 13:45:57 CET Brandon Invergo a écrit :
> This is not a place to discuss other people.
> You are welcome to continue to discuss whatever "governance" issues you
> would like here,
Aren’t these two statements contradictory (as governance is made of by people,
and
Hi Brandon,
Brandon Invergo skribis:
> Ludovic Courtès writes:
>
>> A bit more than 24 hours later, two things have become clear to me: that
>> Mark and Carlos were indeed doing a good moderation job, and that by not
>> doing any moderation, you’ve opened the flood gates and silenced the
>>
Ludovic Courtès writes:
> A bit more than 24 hours later, two things have become clear to me: that
> Mark and Carlos were indeed doing a good moderation job, and that by not
> doing any moderation, you’ve opened the flood gates and silenced the
> rest of us.
>
> In that time we got ~100
Hi again Brandon,
Ludovic Courtès skribis:
> I think Mark and Carlos have done a great job. I am happy that this
> list was host to constructive discussions and not as toxic as the
> private GNU lists. I am concerned that about the ability to continue
> discussing constructively going
Since this is a GNU list, and as long as GNU policies are applied it
doesn't matter who moderates it, so there is really no reason to
further explain the decision. GNU mailing list policies have always
been very lax, and very open.
If you wish to continue the disucssion, feel free to do so but
Le dimanche 3 novembre 2019, 22:34:04 CET Ludovic Courtès a écrit :
> Hi Brandon,
>
> Brandon Invergo skribis:
> > For the past month or so, every message to the list has been subject to
> > moderation, so-called "emergency moderation". It has become clear that
> > the moderation was being used
Hi Brandon,
Brandon Invergo skribis:
> For the past month or so, every message to the list has been subject to
> moderation, so-called "emergency moderation". It has become clear that
> the moderation was being used in a biased manner. We have decided to
> remove Mark and Carlos as
Hi,
On Sun, 2019-11-03 at 14:29 -0500, Carlos O'Donell wrote:
> Thanks to all of those that provided input into the list moderation
> and censorship discussions.
>
> My moderation is certainly biased towards posters that write well, and
> argue without attacking the original pos
abide
> by the Kind Communication Guidelines. We will closely monitor the
> discussion and we will take appropriate actions as necessary.
Thanks to all of those that provided input into the list moderation
and censorship discussions.
My moderation is certainly biased towards posters that
Hi everyone,
For the past month or so, every message to the list has been subject to
moderation, so-called "emergency moderation". It has become clear that
the moderation was being used in a biased manner. We have decided to
remove Mark and Carlos as moderators/admins and to turn off the
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