Re: [GNC] Operating Checking Account in Overdraft

[Adrien Monteleone]

Murray,

The e-mail I sent you was addressed both to you and to the mailing list address.

Instead of hitting your ‘reply’ button, use either the ‘reply-all’ (which will 
send your reply to me and any other recipients) or even better if your e-mail 
software offers it, the ‘reply-list’ button. (which will reply only to the list 
address itself)

Mailing lists work by people e-mailing back and forth, not to each other’s 
personal e-mail addresses, but to a managed list address. (in this case: 
gnucash-user@gnucash.org)

If you forget and click the single reply button, you can always delete the 
personal address and type in the list address, or cancel the new message and 
hit one of the other reply buttons.

Note, you should subscribe yourself to the list so that way your messages are 
not held for the moderator to review first.

See this link for subscribing: 
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user

Forums have some advantages, but the developers for GnuCash have chosen to use 
a mailing list instead.

Regards,
Adrien

> On Aug 3, 2018, at 1:59 AM, Murray Field  wrote:
> 
> HI, 
> 
> I am not sure how to reply to a list so people can be involved in the 
> conversation?
> 
> There are many "forums", I'm sure you know what I mean,  on the  Internet. 
> Would that not be a better way?
> 
> Murray 
> 
> Get Outlook for Android
> 
> From: Adrien Monteleone 
> Sent: Friday, August 3, 2018 1:21:08 AM
> To: Murray Field; gnucash-user
> Subject: Re: Operating Checking Account in Overdraft
>  
> Your welcome, but please always reply to or copy the list so others can 
> benefit from the conversation.
> 
> Regards,
> Adrien


___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see 
https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Operating Checking Account in Overdraft

[Murray Field]

HI David,

Thank you for your email. It all makes perfect sense to me.

Unfortunately, I fall into the second category, in permanent overdraft, but my 
bank treats me well, of course I pay dearly in fees!

Kind Regards,

Murray

Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>


From: gnucash-user  on 
behalf of David Cousens 
Sent: Friday, August 3, 2018 11:23:23 PM
To: gnucash-user@gnucash.org
Subject: Re: [GNC] Operating Checking Account in Overdraft

Murray,

If you operate the account normally with a positive cash balance with only
an occasional excursion into the red for relatively short periods <<
financial year, I would think it is reasonable to record it as an asset
account.

If however you intend to operate the account as a perrmanent overdraft where
the account is in the red most of the time for some considerable period
comparable with a financial year (e.g. after paying for
renovation/refurbishment), it is operating as a variable principal loan, and
it would be more appropriate to record it as a liability rather than an
asset.

Either approach is reasonable. If the books are for your own business, then
your accountant will be able to sort out any formal reporting requirements.
If there are no formal reporting requirements then that is fine.

Your main concern is that any fees associated with using the overdraft
facilty and any interest will possibly by tax deductible depending upon tax
rules in your jurisdiction so you will need to record then as expenses.

David Cousens



-
David Cousens
--
Sent from: 
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgnucash.1415818.n4.nabble.com%2FGnuCash-User-f1415819.htmldata=02%7C01%7C%7C765dfc7ea36c4f4c4c4d08d5f933bc5b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636688922953673313sdata=uNNENtGLyDoBMQMmXWxGDHv9tUETpZtDhe1g1ezTzwA%3Dreserved=0
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.gnucash.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fgnucash-userdata=02%7C01%7C%7C765dfc7ea36c4f4c4c4d08d5f933bc5b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636688922953673313sdata=VQafxMQAoxUWToR%2FjjrdRTItcHIn7Mlw0PVtEg%2FZcNM%3Dreserved=0
If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see 
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.gnucash.org%2Fwiki%2FMailing_Listsdata=02%7C01%7C%7C765dfc7ea36c4f4c4c4d08d5f933bc5b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636688922953673313sdata=zwQzMp82DOhdPR7YHwS9MXqGE3Lq08ODZhHTx1ZolLQ%3Dreserved=0
 for more information.
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see 
https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Operating Checking Account in Overdraft

[Mike or Penny Novack]

On 8/2/2018 10:15 PM, Adrien Monteleone wrote:

GnuCash lets you create any account you want and put it (pretty much) wherever 
you want.

Contra-Accounts are sometimes desired to be where they are as true 
contra-balanced accounts. Others prefer or need them on the opposite side of 
the equation. I think the user should decide, and not be prompted by the 
software or overridden by the software.

If you would prefer a contra-asset to be a liability, then simply create a 
liability account instead and place it there.

Since the (initial) question was about an account of type asset, I will 
give an example where asset accounts would NORMALLY be "contra". Forget 
"current assets" for a moment and consider "fixed assets". A fixed asset 
would normally have two children under it, "basis" and "accumulated 
depreciation" << yes, the "basis" COULD have additional transactions --- 
thus some "repairs" to a farm tractor considered routine and thus 
current expenses but rarely other major things like an engine rebuild 
might be considered extending the life of the asset and thus capitalized 
over time >>  The accumulated depreciation account would be a contra 
account.


Michael D Novack
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see 
https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Operating Checking Account in Overdraft

[David Cousens]

Murray,

If you operate the account normally with a positive cash balance with only
an occasional excursion into the red for relatively short periods <<
financial year, I would think it is reasonable to record it as an asset
account. 

If however you intend to operate the account as a perrmanent overdraft where
the account is in the red most of the time for some considerable period
comparable with a financial year (e.g. after paying for
renovation/refurbishment), it is operating as a variable principal loan, and
it would be more appropriate to record it as a liability rather than an
asset.

Either approach is reasonable. If the books are for your own business, then
your accountant will be able to sort out any formal reporting requirements.
If there are no formal reporting requirements then that is fine. 

Your main concern is that any fees associated with using the overdraft
facilty and any interest will possibly by tax deductible depending upon tax
rules in your jurisdiction so you will need to record then as expenses.

David Cousens



-
David Cousens
--
Sent from: http://gnucash.1415818.n4.nabble.com/GnuCash-User-f1415819.html
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see 
https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Operating Checking Account in Overdraft

[Christian Kluge]

Am 02.08.2018 um 16:41 schrieb Mike or Penny Novack:
> On 8/2/2018 9:21 AM, Adrien Monteleone wrote:
> 
>> I have sent an email to the Australian and New Zealand Chartered
>> Accountants asking them the question.
>>
>> I will let you know what they say.
>>
>> Kind Regards,
>>
>> Murray
> 
> This is something we here in the US can't help much on because we do not
> have "two way checking accounts". We might have checking accounts with
> "overdraft protection" but with those the credit balance situation is
> assumed to be temporary. We might have lines of credit accounts against
> which checks can be written (normal way to make disbursements from the
> account) but with these the balance is almost never* debit, the account
> a liability. What we don't have is accounts designed to be used either way.
> 
> Michael D. Novack
> 


In Germany this account would also be listed as a liability on the
balance shield.

In fact the accounting program I use at work lets you select secondary
account types so that accounts with a negative balance get assigned a
new position on the other side of the balance sheet.

Maybe this could also be a possible idea for GnuCash.

Kind Regards,


Christian Kluge

___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see 
https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Operating Checking Account in Overdraft

[Mike or Penny Novack]

On 8/2/2018 9:21 AM, Adrien Monteleone wrote:


I have sent an email to the Australian and New Zealand Chartered Accountants 
asking them the question.

I will let you know what they say.

Kind Regards,

Murray


This is something we here in the US can't help much on because we do not 
have "two way checking accounts". We might have checking accounts with 
"overdraft protection" but with those the credit balance situation is 
assumed to be temporary. We might have lines of credit accounts against 
which checks can be written (normal way to make disbursements from the 
account) but with these the balance is almost never* debit, the account 
a liability. What we don't have is accounts designed to be used either way.


Michael D. Novack

* Having had one of these many decades ago, I seem to recall sometimes 
making an extra large payment before leaving for a month or two hiking. 
But this would be a temporary situation, just like temporary the other 
way around with a checking account that had overdraft protection. I had 
one of those two back then, but can't remember how long I had to 
straighten out a "overdraft" situation.

___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see 
https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Operating Checking Account in Overdraft

[Adrien Monteleone]

Your welcome, but please always reply to or copy the list so others can benefit 
from the conversation.

Regards,
Adrien


> On Aug 2, 2018, at 2:16 AM, Murray Field  wrote:
> 
> Thank you for your response.
> 
> I have sent an email to the Australian and New Zealand Chartered Accountants 
> asking them the question.
> 
> I will let you know what they say.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> 
> Murray 
> 
> 
> 
> Get Outlook for Android
> 
> From: gnucash-user  on 
> behalf of Adrien Monteleone 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2018 8:27:56 PM
> To: gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> Subject: Re: [GNC] Operating Checking Account in Overdraft
>  
> Interesting question, but this really would be for a local CPA who’s familiar 
> with rules and laws for your jurisdiction to answer. You may find some 
> general guidance on the web for the basic situation and what accounts it will 
> involve. Here’s something that might be helpful: 
> https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsimplestudies.com%2Faccounting_for_bank_and_book_overdrafts_and_their_cash_flow_presentation.htmldata=02%7C01%7C%7C515f228f7c224b489b5508d5f6bfe28d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636686226361982728sdata=F61HAIH4HaSzOgE9PAwG2Kzl5A7HvwuOEqerwILneso%3Dreserved=0
> 
> Once you know where it should be classified, if you need help doing this in 
> GnuCash, someone here can help.
> 
> Regards,
> Adrien
> 
> > On Jul 31, 2018, at 2:14 AM, Murray Field  wrote:
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > We have a permanent overdraft with our bank and we operate our account 
> > fluctuating within   the overdraft limit approved.
> > 
> > How should this be classified in gnucash?
> > 
> > As an asset, a liability or something else? We could not find any reference 
> > to our situation in your guide which we have downloaded.
> > 
> > We are potential new users.
> > 
> > Kind Regards,
> > 
> > Murray and Yvonne Field
> > 
> > 
> > Get Outlook for 
> > Android<https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fghei36data=02%7C01%7C%7C515f228f7c224b489b5508d5f6bfe28d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636686226361982728sdata=ca0gwt%2BvAPLOS9ib7c%2BnffbaRcX8Mspfxb4s6JO6hbE%3Dreserved=0>
> > 
> > ___
> > gnucash-user mailing list
> > gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> > https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.gnucash.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fgnucash-userdata=02%7C01%7C%7C515f228f7c224b489b5508d5f6bfe28d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636686226361982728sdata=t%2FOeotd%2FgHdUxPHWFCFhKhiMRBk0Lu0kjkMutTERyAk%3Dreserved=0
> > If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see 
> > https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.gnucash.org%2Fwiki%2FMailing_Listsdata=02%7C01%7C%7C515f228f7c224b489b5508d5f6bfe28d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636686226361982728sdata=%2FQhGJ3TPLUWYU8jAFBV6l1igmLNxAaLD1v1CLEZlJ1k%3Dreserved=0
> >  for more information.
> > -
> > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
> > 
> 
> 
> ___
> gnucash-user mailing list
> gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.gnucash.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fgnucash-userdata=02%7C01%7C%7C515f228f7c224b489b5508d5f6bfe28d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636686226361982728sdata=t%2FOeotd%2FgHdUxPHWFCFhKhiMRBk0Lu0kjkMutTERyAk%3Dreserved=0
> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see 
> https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.gnucash.org%2Fwiki%2FMailing_Listsdata=02%7C01%7C%7C515f228f7c224b489b5508d5f6bfe28d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636686226361982728sdata=%2FQhGJ3TPLUWYU8jAFBV6l1igmLNxAaLD1v1CLEZlJ1k%3Dreserved=0
>  for more information.
> -
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.


___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see 
https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Operating Checking Account in Overdraft

[jeffrey black]

On 7/31/2018 2:14 AM, Murray Field wrote:
> Hi,
>
> We have a permanent overdraft with our bank and we operate our account 
> fluctuating within   the overdraft limit approved.
>
> How should this be classified in gnucash?
>
> As an asset, a liability or something else? We could not find any reference 
> to our situation in your guide which we have downloaded.
>
> We are potential new users.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Murray and Yvonne Field
>
>
> Get Outlook for Android
>
> ___
> gnucash-user mailing list
> gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see 
> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
> -
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
> .
>
Technically, an overdraft would be considered a liability and should be 
recorded as such.  It is a short term loan and affects net worth.

My recommendation is to consult with and hire a LOCAL certified 
accountant just to set up your account structure, including tax related 
accounts.  The one time fee is small compared to the tax and/or legal 
fees you could possibly incur at a latter date.

I am not a certified accountant, just my 2 cents worth.


Once you setup GnuCash, you will never consider using any other book 
keeping software.

-- 
--JEffrey Black M.B.A.

___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see 
https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Operating Checking Account in Overdraft

[Maf. King]

On Tuesday, 31 July 2018 08:14:14 BST Murray Field wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> We have a permanent overdraft with our bank and we operate our account
> fluctuating within   the overdraft limit approved.
> 
> How should this be classified in gnucash?
> 
> As an asset, a liability or something else? We could not find any reference
> to our situation in your guide which we have downloaded.
> 
> We are potential new users.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> 
> Murray and Yvonne Field

Hi, welcome to the list.

I would create the bank account as an asset and let it have a negative 
balance.  That way, your view of the account will match the Bank's view... 
(running balance when overdrawn is a negative number)

As Adrien said, a local accountant will know your local regulations and norms 
and may be able to advise - I'm not an accountant but if this is for 
personal (not buisness) records, there is normally a lot of leeway in what you 
can do, as long as you are consistent!

0.02
Maf.
 



___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see 
https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Operating Checking Account in Overdraft

[Adrien Monteleone]

Interesting question, but this really would be for a local CPA who’s familiar 
with rules and laws for your jurisdiction to answer. You may find some general 
guidance on the web for the basic situation and what accounts it will involve. 
Here’s something that might be helpful: 
http://simplestudies.com/accounting_for_bank_and_book_overdrafts_and_their_cash_flow_presentation.html

Once you know where it should be classified, if you need help doing this in 
GnuCash, someone here can help.

Regards,
Adrien

> On Jul 31, 2018, at 2:14 AM, Murray Field  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> We have a permanent overdraft with our bank and we operate our account 
> fluctuating within   the overdraft limit approved.
> 
> How should this be classified in gnucash?
> 
> As an asset, a liability or something else? We could not find any reference 
> to our situation in your guide which we have downloaded.
> 
> We are potential new users.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> 
> Murray and Yvonne Field
> 
> 
> Get Outlook for Android
> 
> ___
> gnucash-user mailing list
> gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see 
> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
> -
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
> 


___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see 
https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Operating Checking Account in Overdraft

[Murray Field]

Hi,

We have a permanent overdraft with our bank and we operate our account 
fluctuating within   the overdraft limit approved.

How should this be classified in gnucash?

As an asset, a liability or something else? We could not find any reference to 
our situation in your guide which we have downloaded.

We are potential new users.

Kind Regards,

Murray and Yvonne Field


Get Outlook for Android

___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see 
https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.