Re: [GNC] journal entries

2019-08-15 Thread Dale Alspach


Thanks Liz.
As I said in an earlier post I have no experience with Quicken.
Some searching produced that some users are using capabilities of
Quicken to make it act like a double entry system, but Quicken does not
enforce this. Second, Intuit has apparently sold Quicken.

Dale

On 8/15/19 5:09 AM, Liz wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Aug 2019 08:56:49 -0500
> Dale Alspach  wrote:
> 
>> The start of this thread was a question from a new user about journal
>> entries as he understood them from being a Quicken user. (I believe
>> Quicken is a personal accounting version of Quickbooks. Quickbooks is
>> targeted at small to medium size businesses.) My post was an attempt
>> to explain why a new user coming from Quicken might have a different
>> notion of journal entry and not understand the responses he was
>> getting from this list.
> 
> 
> Quicken and Quickbooks are completely different. I have owned both
> (which may have been last century).
> 
> Quickbooks is double entry accounting with fancy forms which hide the
> works.
> 
> Quicken does not do double entry accounting. Hence my suggestion that
> those who come from Quicken are advised to learn about double entry
> accounting from some suitable sources.
> 
> Liz
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Re: [GNC] journal entries

2019-08-15 Thread Liz
On Wed, 14 Aug 2019 08:56:49 -0500
Dale Alspach  wrote:

> The start of this thread was a question from a new user about journal
> entries as he understood them from being a Quicken user. (I believe
> Quicken is a personal accounting version of Quickbooks. Quickbooks is
> targeted at small to medium size businesses.) My post was an attempt
> to explain why a new user coming from Quicken might have a different
> notion of journal entry and not understand the responses he was
> getting from this list.


Quicken and Quickbooks are completely different. I have owned both
(which may have been last century).

Quickbooks is double entry accounting with fancy forms which hide the
works.

Quicken does not do double entry accounting. Hence my suggestion that
those who come from Quicken are advised to learn about double entry
accounting from some suitable sources.

Liz
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Re: [GNC] journal entries

2019-08-14 Thread David Cousens
Dale,

There is a wiki page on the migration from Quicken
(https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Quicken_Migration) and perhaps this is a more
appropriate place to document differences for new users coming from other
packages as hopefully this is where they will end up. Perhaps a note
referring to the wiki for those migrating from Quicken in the introductory
sections of the docs. Being a wiki this can be expanded by users themselves.
I think I remember seeing a paragraph somewhere in the docs which points out
that unlike many other accounting packages, GnuCash is register oriented
rather than journal or task oriented as the primary entry method. I found
that aspect particularly useful as an accounting student 10 or more years
ago as GnuCash more closely matched what appeared in T accounts in my text
books.

David Cousens



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Re: [GNC] journal entries

2019-08-14 Thread Adrien Monteleone
The OP was fairly light on details. (and gave a general “I don’t understand” 
but never said specifically ‘what’ they didn’t understand)

It seems a few people hazarded a guess and might have gotten it right. (we 
haven’t heard back from the OP yet since)

Another approach would be to tell someone, “Forget about any advice from 
elsewhere concerning ‘journal entries’ and just follow the Help & Guide with 
respect to entering your expenses. If you have specific questions trying to do 
that, let us know.”

If the OP started with the Help Manual (or only read that one) I can understand 
their frustration. It isn’t a “How do I do this” it is a “How does the program 
work from a technical perspective once I’ve already figured out what I need to 
do”. I’ve always thought of the Help Manual as more of an Appendix sort of 
reference in many respects and not an actual Help that most other apps include 
and that I’m certainly used to referencing. The Help manual doesn’t tell you 
how to keep track of your expenses. That is covered in the Guide. But the 
necessary Setup work and the technical step by step of entering transactions 
generically is covered in Help. I personally think this is a mess and I know 
there are strong opinions in favor of the present situation, but this list 
seems to bare out that it needs serious rethinking and re-ordering.

Now that I’m off that soap box, perhaps an approach to this type of question 
should more specifically be, “Read Chapter 2 ’The Basics’ of the Tutorial & 
Concepts Guide first to get a grasp on what needs to be done, then follow the 
‘Setting Up' from Chapter 5 and 'Entering Transactions' from Chapter 6 of the 
Help Manual. Let us know if you have any questions.”

The fact that someone needs to be directed *to get started* to Chapter 2 of one 
manual and Chapter 5 & 6 of another should illustrate the confusing nature of 
the current documentation organization.

Regards,
Adrien

> On Aug 14, 2019, at 8:56 AM, Dale Alspach  wrote:
> 
> This does not really address the issue. Quickbooks, for example, is a
> double-entry accounting system. What is being provided by the user
> interface is an alternate method for entering transactions. (A perverse
> user could enter every transaction from the general journal screen in
> Quickbooks. )
> 
> The start of this thread was a question from a new user about journal
> entries as he understood them from being a Quicken user. (I believe Quicken
> is a personal accounting version of Quickbooks. Quickbooks is targeted at
> small to medium size businesses.) My post was an attempt to explain why a
> new user coming from Quicken might have a different notion of journal entry
> and not understand the responses he was getting from this list.
> 
> The question that remains is what should/could be provided in the
> documentation to help users transitioning from these double-entry
> accounting programs with a sophisticated user interface and a different
> approach to entering transactions to Gnucash.
> 
> Dale
> 
> On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 5:15 AM Liz  wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 17:04:55 -0400
>> Mike or Penny Novack  wrote:
>> 
>>> If you mean "differences from other applications that are NOT
>>> standard accounting" why should that be necessary. Shouldn't simply
>>> saying that gnucash is "double entry bookkeeping" enough? The
>>> documentation DOES make that clear. Not up to gnucash to point out
>>> that non-double entry isn't standard accounting.
>> 
>> Some type of writing that says
>>"Gnucash enforces the industry standard of double-entry
>>accounting. You may have been using a package which works
>>differently, and if you have been using X Y or Z we recommend
>>that you read about double-entry accounting before you
>>start." (Links to suitable sites)
>> This would be preferable to no information - and perhaps drop by one
>> third the number of queries here which have started with a
>> misunderstanding about accounting and blame the program.
>> 
>> Liz


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Re: [GNC] journal entries

2019-08-14 Thread Liz
On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 17:04:55 -0400
Mike or Penny Novack  wrote:

> If you mean "differences from other applications that are NOT
> standard accounting" why should that be necessary. Shouldn't simply
> saying that gnucash is "double entry bookkeeping" enough? The
> documentation DOES make that clear. Not up to gnucash to point out
> that non-double entry isn't standard accounting.

Some type of writing that says
"Gnucash enforces the industry standard of double-entry
accounting. You may have been using a package which works
differently, and if you have been using X Y or Z we recommend
that you read about double-entry accounting before you
start." (Links to suitable sites)
This would be preferable to no information - and perhaps drop by one
third the number of queries here which have started with a
misunderstanding about accounting and blame the program.

Liz
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Re: [GNC] journal entries

2019-08-13 Thread Mike or Penny Novack

On 8/13/2019 10:57 AM, Dale Alspach wrote:



The Gnucash documentation could make some general statements about
differences between Gnucash and other accounting software, but it would be
too much to expect specifics about the other software.
Dale
 Gnucash IS ordinary, run of the mill, double entry accounting software 
<< all the double entry apps I have used are also "virtual journal" >> 
There is little to learn for anybody familiar with double entry 
bookkeeping (and that IS standard for accounting, has been for a VERY 
long time)


If you mean "differences from other applications that are NOT standard 
accounting" why should that be necessary. Shouldn't simply saying that 
gnucash is "double entry bookkeeping" enough? The documentation DOES 
make that clear. Not up to gnucash to point out that non-double entry 
isn't standard accounting.


Michael D Novack
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Re: [GNC] journal entries

2019-08-13 Thread Dale Alspach
The problem is actually that in these consumer oriented packages the
paradigm is different. In Gnucash the chart of accounts is fundamental. In
Quickbooks the  initial screen shows a set of tasks: add a customer, pay
bills, enter charges, etc. Clicking on these brings up a set of account
names, customers, vendors, etc. Underneath the user is creating a
transaction but parts of it are hidden. (This happens to a limited extent
in the Basic Ledger view in Gnucash.)
Let me describe writing a check in Quickbooks, I either click on Write
Checks on the Quickbooks desktop or go to the Bank menu and click on it
there. I choose the correct  checking account and am presented with an
image of a blank check. I fill in the Pay To and the bottom part of the
screen will show a split and will suggest an account. After filling in the
remaining parts of the check and scanning in and attaching any related
documents, I go to the split, select the appropriate account, enter a memo,
customer, job, or item. Additional splits can be added and the check can be
printed.
The point is that the user is not seeing the transaction as a whole, is not
seeing credit/debit or even more friendly versions of labels, and that the
interface is task oriented. With a task oriented system situations arise
which are not covered by the tasks in the user interface; those situations
can be handled by a journal entry. Making a journal entry in Quickbooks is
like Gnucash, i.e., double entry accounting. Here is an example list of
journal transactions from Intuit's site:

   - Opening balances in a new file
   - Adjusting entries
   - Asset purchases
   - Depreciation
   - Interest on loan accounts
   - End of financial year adjustments
   - Sales amount from a different industry software that is required in
   the accounting software
   - Company transfers, different entities in two different files
   - Stock adjustments
   - Capital contributions
   - Owner drawings

The Gnucash documentation could make some general statements about
differences between Gnucash and other accounting software, but it would be
too much to expect specifics about the other software.
Dale

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 4:44 AM Fred Bone  wrote:

> On 12 August 2019 at 12:57, Mike or Penny Novack said:
>
> > On 8/12/2019 12:45 PM, Clint Chaplin wrote:
> > > This is also similar to NetSuite, which is an on-line double entry
> > > bookkeeping service, and where "journal entries" are a special case
> > > transaction, even though by definition everything is really a journal
> > > entry.
> > >
> > It is definitely a terminology confusion.
> >
> > In the old days, especially with "cash book" accounting*, a "journal
> > entry" referred to a transaction that was not affecting any of the cash
> > accounts. So mainly corrections and adjustments (example: recording
> > depreciation).
> >
> > It has no real meaning in a "virtual journal" system like gnucash.
>
> Indeed. But what is the meaning in the systems being referred to in this
> thread? The matter will undoubtedly arise again.
>
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Re: [GNC] journal entries

2019-08-13 Thread Fred Bone
On 12 August 2019 at 12:57, Mike or Penny Novack said:

> On 8/12/2019 12:45 PM, Clint Chaplin wrote:
> > This is also similar to NetSuite, which is an on-line double entry
> > bookkeeping service, and where "journal entries" are a special case
> > transaction, even though by definition everything is really a journal
> > entry.
> >
> It is definitely a terminology confusion.
> 
> In the old days, especially with "cash book" accounting*, a "journal
> entry" referred to a transaction that was not affecting any of the cash
> accounts. So mainly corrections and adjustments (example: recording
> depreciation).
> 
> It has no real meaning in a "virtual journal" system like gnucash.

Indeed. But what is the meaning in the systems being referred to in this 
thread? The matter will undoubtedly arise again.

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Re: [GNC] journal entries

2019-08-12 Thread Mike or Penny Novack

On 8/12/2019 12:45 PM, Clint Chaplin wrote:

This is also similar to NetSuite, which is an on-line double entry
bookkeeping service, and where "journal entries" are a special case
transaction, even though by definition everything is really a journal entry.


It is definitely a terminology confusion.

In the old days, especially with "cash book" accounting*, a "journal 
entry" referred to a transaction that was not affecting any of the cash 
accounts. So mainly corrections and adjustments (example: recording 
depreciation).


It has no real meaning in a "virtual journal" system like gnucash.

Michael D Novack

* A shortcut where there was a special part of the ledger called the 
"cash book" which had the account for cash and a half dozen or so of the 
most affected other accounts. Any transactions that could skipped the 
"enter into the journal first" step and were entered directly in the 
cash book << usually 90+% of transactions could be >> Any transactions 
that affected OTHER accounts were entered the usual way, in the journal 
and then posted to the ledger.


When I did this, I usually reserved a pair of columns in the cash book 
for the journal. For example, using 12 column paper, I could have the 
journal, cash, and the four "most popular" other ledger accounts. Or 
possibly more if only keeping one side here << the "real" ledger had all 
the accounts, even those in the cashbook. At the bottom of each cashbook 
page the totals were posted to the "real account" >>


The reason for using a cashbook was to reduce posting. Transcription 
errors during posting were by far the majority of all errors.


Michael D Novack
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Re: [GNC] journal entries

2019-08-12 Thread Clint Chaplin
This is also similar to NetSuite, which is an on-line double entry
bookkeeping service, and where "journal entries" are a special case
transaction, even though by definition everything is really a journal entry.

On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 9:02 AM Dale Alspach  wrote:

> I think Frank is on the right track. The original poster is coming from
> Quicken which I have never used. I think it is similar to Quickbooks
> which I have used a little. Journal entries are used for corrections,
> some transfers between accounts, etc., in Quickbooks.
>
> Gnucash does not have a special notion of journal entry. The General
> Journal is just a view of all transactions from all accounts. This may
> be what is confusing the original poster.
>
> Dale
>
> On 8/12/19 10:38 AM, Frank H. Ellenberger wrote:
> > Am Mo., 12. Aug. 2019 um 17:21 Uhr schrieb David T. via gnucash-user
> > :
> >>
> >> I'm not sure how this is a challenge, especially since both John and
> >> David C. pointed you in the right direction in the docs. Perhaps you are
> >> associating the term "Journal entry" with something special?
> > :
> > In the times of ink and paper, you had to enter (parts of) a
> > transaction 3 times:
> > Journal, Account A, Account B.
> >
> > On computers it is different, e.g.
> > you enter all details in account A and the relevant parts appear also
> > in account B and Tools->General Journal.
> >
> > HTH
> > Frank
> >
> >> On 8/12/2019 8:20 PM, Harold via gnucash-user wrote:
> >>
> >>>   I have searched, looked, and read what I could find about journal
> entries in GC but I am no closer to understanding what I need to do to
> enter a journal entry. I am not an accountant and am using GC for my
> personal bookkeeping. I have entered journal entries in Quickbooks in the
> past but don't understand how to do it in GC. Can anyone nudge me in the
> right direction?Thanks,Harold
> > :
> > ___
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-- 
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Re: [GNC] journal entries

2019-08-12 Thread Dale Alspach
I think Frank is on the right track. The original poster is coming from
Quicken which I have never used. I think it is similar to Quickbooks
which I have used a little. Journal entries are used for corrections,
some transfers between accounts, etc., in Quickbooks.

Gnucash does not have a special notion of journal entry. The General
Journal is just a view of all transactions from all accounts. This may
be what is confusing the original poster.

Dale

On 8/12/19 10:38 AM, Frank H. Ellenberger wrote:
> Am Mo., 12. Aug. 2019 um 17:21 Uhr schrieb David T. via gnucash-user
> :
>>
>> I'm not sure how this is a challenge, especially since both John and
>> David C. pointed you in the right direction in the docs. Perhaps you are
>> associating the term "Journal entry" with something special?
> :
> In the times of ink and paper, you had to enter (parts of) a
> transaction 3 times:
> Journal, Account A, Account B.
> 
> On computers it is different, e.g.
> you enter all details in account A and the relevant parts appear also
> in account B and Tools->General Journal.
> 
> HTH
> Frank
> 
>> On 8/12/2019 8:20 PM, Harold via gnucash-user wrote:
>>
>>>   I have searched, looked, and read what I could find about journal entries 
>>> in GC but I am no closer to understanding what I need to do to enter a 
>>> journal entry. I am not an accountant and am using GC for my personal 
>>> bookkeeping. I have entered journal entries in Quickbooks in the past but 
>>> don't understand how to do it in GC. Can anyone nudge me in the right 
>>> direction?Thanks,Harold
> :
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Re: [GNC] journal entries

2019-08-12 Thread Frank H. Ellenberger
Am Mo., 12. Aug. 2019 um 17:21 Uhr schrieb David T. via gnucash-user
:
>
> I'm not sure how this is a challenge, especially since both John and
> David C. pointed you in the right direction in the docs. Perhaps you are
> associating the term "Journal entry" with something special?
:
In the times of ink and paper, you had to enter (parts of) a
transaction 3 times:
Journal, Account A, Account B.

On computers it is different, e.g.
you enter all details in account A and the relevant parts appear also
in account B and Tools->General Journal.

HTH
Frank

> On 8/12/2019 8:20 PM, Harold via gnucash-user wrote:
>
> >   I have searched, looked, and read what I could find about journal entries 
> > in GC but I am no closer to understanding what I need to do to enter a 
> > journal entry. I am not an accountant and am using GC for my personal 
> > bookkeeping. I have entered journal entries in Quickbooks in the past but 
> > don't understand how to do it in GC. Can anyone nudge me in the right 
> > direction?Thanks,Harold
:
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Re: [GNC] journal entries

2019-08-12 Thread David T. via gnucash-user
I'm not sure how this is a challenge, especially since both John and 
David C. pointed you in the right direction in the docs. Perhaps you are 
associating the term "Journal entry" with something special?


To begin, set your View preference to "Basic" and on the 
Preferences:Accounts tab, uncheck "Use formal accounting labels."


In the Chart of Accounts, double-click Assets:Cash

In the Cash account register:

 * Type the date of the transaction, for example, today is August 12,
   2019, so I would enter 8/12/19 because I use US style dates. Your
   date preferences might have this as 12-08-2019, or even 2019-08-12!
 * After entering the date, press the Tab key twice, which will move
   the cursor two columns to the right, to the Description field
 * Type a Description. For example, if you purchased Ibuprofen(r) from
   CVS, you might enter a description like "CVS"
 * Press the Tab key one time, and move the cursor to the Transfer column
 * In the Transfer column, select Expenses:Drugs
 * Press Tab *two more times* to the Decrease column
 * Enter the amount for the drugs.
 * Press the Enter Key

What part of this wasn't clear in the documentation?

David


On 8/12/2019 8:20 PM, Harold via gnucash-user wrote:


  I have searched, looked, and read what I could find about journal entries in 
GC but I am no closer to understanding what I need to do to enter a journal 
entry. I am not an accountant and am using GC for my personal bookkeeping. I 
have entered journal entries in Quickbooks in the past but don't understand how 
to do it in GC. Can anyone nudge me in the right direction?Thanks,Harold

 On Sunday, August 11, 2019, 5:15:41 PM CDT, John Ralls 
 wrote:
  
  


On Aug 11, 2019, at 11:56 AM, Harold via gnucash-user 
 wrote:

I want to start tracking the cash payments that I make for drugs. I have been 
searching about making a journal entry in Gnucash but haven't found anything 
yet. Where do I find how to enter a journal entry in Gnucash using Linux?
___

Have you studied the Tutorial and Concepts Guide [1]?

Regards,
John Ralls

[1] http://www.gnucash.org/viewdoc.phtml?rev=3???=C=guide or Help>Tutorial 
and Concepts Guide from inside the program.
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Re: [GNC] journal entries

2019-08-12 Thread Stephen C. Camidge
Enter the date and description. On the first time Credit Cash for the amount. 
On the second line, Debit Drugs for the amount.

That should do it.


On Mon, Aug 12, 2019, at 10:50 AM, Harold via gnucash-user wrote:
> I have searched, looked, and read what I could find about journal entries in 
> GC but I am no closer to understanding what I need to do to enter a journal 
> entry. I am not an accountant and am using GC for my personal bookkeeping. I 
> have entered journal entries in Quickbooks in the past but don't understand 
> how to do it in GC. Can anyone nudge me in the right direction?Thanks,Harold
> 
>  On Sunday, August 11, 2019, 5:15:41 PM CDT, John Ralls  
> wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> > On Aug 11, 2019, at 11:56 AM, Harold via gnucash-user 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > I want to start tracking the cash payments that I make for drugs. I have 
> > been searching about making a journal entry in Gnucash but haven't found 
> > anything yet. Where do I find how to enter a journal entry in Gnucash using 
> > Linux?
> > ___
> 
> Have you studied the Tutorial and Concepts Guide [1]?
> 
> Regards,
> John Ralls
> 
> [1] http://www.gnucash.org/viewdoc.phtml?rev=3⟨=C=guide or Help>Tutorial 
> and Concepts Guide from inside the program. 
> ___
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Re: [GNC] journal entries

2019-08-12 Thread Harold via gnucash-user
 I have searched, looked, and read what I could find about journal entries in 
GC but I am no closer to understanding what I need to do to enter a journal 
entry. I am not an accountant and am using GC for my personal bookkeeping. I 
have entered journal entries in Quickbooks in the past but don't understand how 
to do it in GC. Can anyone nudge me in the right direction?Thanks,Harold

On Sunday, August 11, 2019, 5:15:41 PM CDT, John Ralls  
wrote:  
 
 

> On Aug 11, 2019, at 11:56 AM, Harold via gnucash-user 
>  wrote:
> 
> I want to start tracking the cash payments that I make for drugs. I have been 
> searching about making a journal entry in Gnucash but haven't found anything 
> yet. Where do I find how to enter a journal entry in Gnucash using Linux?
> ___

Have you studied the Tutorial and Concepts Guide [1]?

Regards,
John Ralls

[1] http://www.gnucash.org/viewdoc.phtml?rev=3⟨=C=guide or Help>Tutorial 
and Concepts Guide from inside the program.  
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Re: [GNC] journal entries

2019-08-11 Thread David Cousens via gnucash-user
Harald,

The following section in the GnuCash help manual gives the details of
creating a transaction entry in GnuCash
(https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v3/C/gnucash-help/trans-enter.html). 

It assumes that you have the register (table of transactions for a specific
account) open.  You can do this in the Accounts tab which is the first
window GnuCash opens at by double clicking on a specific account, e.g. an
Asset:Current Assets: Checking Account if you have initially created a
default Common Account heirarchy when you first opened GnuCash.

Gnucash is a formal double entry accounting package. To use it effectively
you will need at least some basic information on double entry accounting
which is presented in the section headed The Basics in the Getting Started
section of the guide
(https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v3/C/gnucash-guide/chapter_basics.html) that
John referred you to earlier.  

The help manual referenced above is a description of the GnuCash interfaces
and how to use them  while the Tutorial and Concepts guide is more oriented
at how to perform common  accounting functions using GnuCash.

To track a single expense you will require a minimum of two accounts, one
Asset account to record where the cash (e.g. Asset:CurrentAssets:Cash in
Wallet) you are paying for drugs is coming from and an Expense account to
record your purchases of drugs from the pharmacy (e.g.
Expense:Pharmacy:Drugs) and each purchase is recorded as taking money from
your cash account ( a credit to it) and a corresponding debit entry to the
Expense:Pharmacy:Drugs accountto record receiving the drugs in return for
the money.  

If this is the only expenditure you really want to track GnuCash will
possibly be overkill for you and a simple spreadsheet may better meet your
needs.

David Cousens



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David Cousens
--
Sent from: http://gnucash.1415818.n4.nabble.com/GnuCash-User-f1415819.html
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Re: [GNC] journal entries

2019-08-11 Thread Harold via gnucash-user
I have looked but didn't see an explanation that I could understand.

On Aug 11, 2019, 5:15 PM, at 5:15 PM, John Ralls  wrote:
>
>
>> On Aug 11, 2019, at 11:56 AM, Harold via gnucash-user
> wrote:
>> 
>> I want to start tracking the cash payments that I make for drugs. I
>have been searching about making a journal entry in Gnucash but haven't
>found anything yet. Where do I find how to enter a journal entry in
>Gnucash using Linux?
>> ___
>
>Have you studied the Tutorial and Concepts Guide [1]?
>
>Regards,
>John Ralls
>
>[1] http://www.gnucash.org/viewdoc.phtml?rev=3=C=guide or
>Help>Tutorial and Concepts Guide from inside the program.
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Re: [GNC] journal entries

2019-08-11 Thread John Ralls



> On Aug 11, 2019, at 11:56 AM, Harold via gnucash-user 
>  wrote:
> 
> I want to start tracking the cash payments that I make for drugs. I have been 
> searching about making a journal entry in Gnucash but haven't found anything 
> yet. Where do I find how to enter a journal entry in Gnucash using Linux?
> ___

Have you studied the Tutorial and Concepts Guide [1]?

Regards,
John Ralls

[1] http://www.gnucash.org/viewdoc.phtml?rev=3=C=guide or 
Help>Tutorial and Concepts Guide from inside the program.
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