Re: GnuPG on Android [was: Re: FAQ and GNU]

2018-01-04 Thread Bernhard Reiter
Hi,

note that a search for "Android" in wiki.gnupg.org would have shown you the 
Guardian port of GnuPG 2.1 to Android. (I've added additional details now.)

Am Mittwoch 11 Oktober 2017 16:40:42 schrieb Daniel Kahn Gillmor:
> here's the project i was thinking of that was farthest along in terms of
> system integration on Android is:
>
>    https://guardianproject.info/code/gnupg/

In 2016 I've downloaded and briefly tried the app. It also was available from 
the Free Software app store for Android: fdroid. So it indeed build and ran.

The 2016 study for using OpenPGP on Android (in German) linked from
  https://wiki.gnupg.org/Gpg4all2015?highlight=(Android)
has a more elaborate discussion of the port. It tests the 2014 version
that was supposed to be installed from the app store between 100k and 500k 
times.

Best Regards,
Bernhard


-- 
www.intevation.de/~bernhard   +49 541 33 508 3-3
Intevation GmbH, Osnabrück, DE; Amtsgericht Osnabrück, HRB 18998
Geschäftsführer Frank Koormann, Bernhard Reiter, Dr. Jan-Oliver Wagner


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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-17 Thread MFPA
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On Friday 13 October 2017 at 2:27:34 PM, in
, Mario Castelán
Castro wrote:-


> On 12/10/17 17:58, MFPA wrote:
>>> Would it be
>>> correct to refer to
>>> a car as an “engine”, because it includes an engine?

>> It is usual in and around London to call a car a
>> "motor".

> Alright.

>> Calling it an "engine" seems no more or no less
>> correct.

> But one can not conclude that it is correct just
> because it is common.

Yes one can: as Rob pointed out, the definition of correctness in
English is whether it conforms to everyday usage in the community in
question.


- --
Best regards

MFPA  

Pain is inevitable, but misery is optional.
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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-13 Thread Robert J. Hansen
> Yes, but surely, given the question you must have seen this one
> coming :-D

I consider the current amusement I'm receiving small payment for my
having to read every last %$^$#@! message in the bikeshedding.

But, as it's been requested to take it off-list -- and it *is* pretty
off-topic -- I think it's only genteel to do so.  And what a shame: I
was looking forward to showing examples of iambic pentameter that were
neither iambic, nor pentameter.  :)

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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-13 Thread Duane Whitty
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On 17-10-11 12:55 AM, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>> Amazing how much people want to comment on the color of this 
>> particular bikeshed!
> 
> I agree.  Bikeshedding frustrates me: I'll leave it at that.
> 

Yes, but surely, given the question you must have seen this one
coming :-D

Best Regards,
Duane

- -- 
Duane Whitty
du...@nofroth.com
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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-13 Thread Mario Castelán Castro
On 12/10/17 17:58, MFPA wrote:
>> Would it be
>> correct to refer to
>> a car as an “engine”, because it includes an engine?
> 
> It is usual in and around London to call a car a "motor".

Alright.

> Calling it an "engine" seems no more or no less correct.

But one can not conclude that it is correct just because it is common.

-- 
Do not eat animals; respect them as you respect people.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+to+(become+OR+eat)+vegan



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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-12 Thread MFPA
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On Tuesday 10 October 2017 at 8:30:40 PM, in
, Mario Castelán
Castro wrote:-


> Would it be
> correct to refer to
> a car as an “engine”, because it includes an engine?


It is usual in and around London to call a car a "motor".
Calling it an "engine" seems no more or no less correct.



- --
Best regards

MFPA  

Reality is nothing but a collective hunch.
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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-11 Thread Neal H. Walfield
At Wed, 11 Oct 2017 17:47:29 +0200,
Werner Koch wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 09:15, n...@walfield.org said:
> 
> > I'm aware of an effort that tried to port GnuPG to Android.  bionic
> > was a source of several problems.  As far as I know, the work is
> 
> Actually we solved the Bionic problems a long time ago.  The major
> problem was actually custom pinentry for android.  That has been
> written and I have seen reports that everything worked.

That's great to know, thanks!  Unfortunately, it appears that there
have either been regressions or the people that I spoke with made some
mistakes.

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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-11 Thread Werner Koch
On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 09:15, n...@walfield.org said:

> I'm aware of an effort that tried to port GnuPG to Android.  bionic
> was a source of several problems.  As far as I know, the work is

Actually we solved the Bionic problems a long time ago.  The major
problem was actually custom pinentry for android.  That has been
written and I have seen reports that everything worked.  However, the
guardianproject ran out of funding and the involved hackers moved on to
other projects


Salam-Shalom,

   Werner

-- 
Die Gedanken sind frei.  Ausnahmen regelt ein Bundesgesetz.


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GnuPG on Android [was: Re: FAQ and GNU]

2017-10-11 Thread Daniel Kahn Gillmor
On Wed 2017-10-11 09:15:41 +0200, Neal H. Walfield wrote:
> At Wed, 11 Oct 2017 08:26:21 +0200,
> Werner Koch wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 20:55, b...@adversary.org said:
>> 
>> > Has anyone managed to get any part of the GPG libs to compile on
>> > Android/Linux?  As far as I'm aware no one has and all OpenPGP
>> 
>> There might be a problems with the current release but GnuPG is expected
>> to build for Android just fine.  And on AIX and HP/UX.  There might be
>> build problems but that are bugs we need to fix.
>
> I'm aware of an effort that tried to port GnuPG to Android.  bionic
> was a source of several problems.  As far as I know, the work is
> currently stalled.

I've been asked about this repeatedly myself, and my impression aligns
with what Neal is saying, but i'd be happy to be wrong.

here's the project i was thinking of that was farthest along in terms of
system integration on Android is:

   https://guardianproject.info/code/gnupg/

At any rate, it sounds like the details here might be something that we
want to put in the FAQ :)

Clearly it is *not* the case that most Android-based Linux systems
(which is to say, most Linux-based systems, when measuring by
installation count) come with GnuPG installed by default, alas. :(

--dkg


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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-11 Thread Neal H. Walfield
At Wed, 11 Oct 2017 08:26:21 +0200,
Werner Koch wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 20:55, b...@adversary.org said:
> 
> > Has anyone managed to get any part of the GPG libs to compile on
> > Android/Linux?  As far as I'm aware no one has and all OpenPGP
> 
> There might be a problems with the current release but GnuPG is expected
> to build for Android just fine.  And on AIX and HP/UX.  There might be
> build problems but that are bugs we need to fix.

I'm aware of an effort that tried to port GnuPG to Android.  bionic
was a source of several problems.  As far as I know, the work is
currently stalled.


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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-11 Thread Neal H. Walfield
At Tue, 10 Oct 2017 23:55:32 -0400,
Robert J. Hansen wrote:
> 
> > Amazing how much people want to comment on the color of this 
> > particular bikeshed!
> 
> I agree.  Bikeshedding frustrates me: I'll leave it at that.
> 
> Reviewing the last forty-odd emails on the subject, there are a small
> number of regular contributors to the community who are in favor, a
> small number opposed, and a smaller number of mostly-lurkers who have
> exceptionally strong feelings.
> 
> I do not see a community consensus one way or another.  I'll continue
> with my original plan.

I didn't realize that there was a vote.  FWIW, I agree with dkg,
although I'm not particularly passionate about it.

:) Neal

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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-11 Thread Werner Koch
On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 20:55, b...@adversary.org said:

> Has anyone managed to get any part of the GPG libs to compile on
> Android/Linux?  As far as I'm aware no one has and all OpenPGP

There might be a problems with the current release but GnuPG is expected
to build for Android just fine.  And on AIX and HP/UX.  There might be
build problems but that are bugs we need to fix.


Shalom-Salam,

   Werner

-- 
Die Gedanken sind frei.  Ausnahmen regelt ein Bundesgesetz.


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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Robert J. Hansen
> Amazing how much people want to comment on the color of this 
> particular bikeshed!

I agree.  Bikeshedding frustrates me: I'll leave it at that.

Reviewing the last forty-odd emails on the subject, there are a small
number of regular contributors to the community who are in favor, a
small number opposed, and a smaller number of mostly-lurkers who have
exceptionally strong feelings.

I do not see a community consensus one way or another.  I'll continue
with my original plan.

Should any of the people with exceptionally strong feelings on the
subject want to fork the FAQ, well, it's under a permissive license for
a reason -- just please don't claim that it's the official FAQ.  :)

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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Mario Castelán Castro
On 10/10/17 11:02, Ralph Corderoy wrote:
> Please note, it's "GnuPG".  That's the project name.  If you wish to
> acknowledge that it's a GNU project then it's GNU GnuPG.  :-)

Well, then blame this project for being undecided about what its own
name is. They use both “GNU Privacy Guard” (which I abbreviate as “GNU
PG”) and “GnuPG”.

-- 
Do not eat animals; respect them as you respect people.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+to+(become+OR+eat)+vegan



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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Mario Castelán Castro
On 10/10/17 11:05, Leo Gaspard wrote:
>> Recall that the most important contribution of the GNU project is not
>> the software packages, but starting the free software movement and
>> developing the most important licenses. GNU/Linux distributions are only
>> possible because of free software ideology, even though many such would
>> hate to acknowledge this.
> 
> So we should call FreeBSD “GNU/FreeBSD” instead? Sorry, I could not resist.

Nice straw man fallacy. I have never asked anybody to call “GNU/*” all
free software projects, or anything similar, so your argument is unsound.

Moreover, there is no analogy between “FreeBSD” and “Linux”:

*The name “FreeBSD” has always referred to a specific distribution. That
is how people use it. There is no problem here.

*The name “Linux” refers to a specific *kernel* (from “Linus”, the first
author of this kernel). If you use the name “Linux” to refer to the
kernel, there is no problem, but using it for anything else is
incorrect, even if it *includes* Linux. Would it be correct to refer to
a car as an “engine”, because it includes an engine?

-- 
Do not eat animals; respect them as you respect people.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+to+(become+OR+eat)+vegan



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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Mario Castelán Castro
On 10/10/17 11:04, Ralph Corderoy wrote:
> You snipped the bit where I said "Linux" has two meanings in the English
> language depending on context.  Given your admirable, though misplaced,
> zeal, I doubt there's a considered argument to be had here.

In the previous message you said “"Linux" can be the kernel or a
distro.”. But this is outright incorrect (Linux is not a distribution).
Thus I elided this part according to my practice of omitting irrelevant
text in a reply to keep the messages to a readable size.

The name “Linux” was invented for the kernel for which Linus Torvalds is
known. Later, lazy people incorrecting began using the same word to
refer to basically any software bundle that include this kernel.

-- 
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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Ben McGinnes
On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 02:06:17AM +, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
> A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ be
> replaced with "GNU/Linux".

Oh ... say hi to RMS from us.  ;)

> I'm not inclined to make this change.  However, in order to make
> sure that the FAQ reflects the community's wishes, I'm submitting
> the proposal here for community feedback.
> 
> If anyone has strong feelings on it one way or another, chime in.

I personally don't mind either way, but it is worth mentioning that in
the context of the GPG FAQ, it might be more accurate to say that it
is GNU/Linux.  Unless, of course, there are examples of the current
source code compiling on non-GNU/Linux systems successfully.

Has anyone managed to get any part of the GPG libs to compile on
Android/Linux?  As far as I'm aware no one has and all OpenPGP
implementations on Android devices require an entirely separate stack,
usually a Java implementation, but I'll be very happy to be proven
wrong on that.


Regards,
Ben



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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Leo Gaspard
On 10/10/2017 08:23 PM, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote:
> On Tue 2017-10-10 19:46:28 +0200, Leo Gaspard wrote:
>> That said, I wonder whether the sentence with “all GNU/Linux distros
>> feature a suitable GnuPG tool” would make sense at all, given GnuPG is,
>> as pointed out by Mike, part of the GNU operating system, which would,
>> if I understand correctly, mean that as soon as the distribution
>> includes GNU it must include GnuPG? (I may easily be wrong in my
>> interpretation of “part of the GNU operating system”)
> 
> There's no "must" that a GNU system contain GnuPG.
> 
> [...]
> 
> So I think this FAQ is more correct if it's re-written to say
> "GNU/Linux" here and in the other place i mentioned.

Agreeing here.



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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Daniel Kahn Gillmor
On Tue 2017-10-10 19:46:28 +0200, Leo Gaspard wrote:
> That said, I wonder whether the sentence with “all GNU/Linux distros
> feature a suitable GnuPG tool” would make sense at all, given GnuPG is,
> as pointed out by Mike, part of the GNU operating system, which would,
> if I understand correctly, mean that as soon as the distribution
> includes GNU it must include GnuPG? (I may easily be wrong in my
> interpretation of “part of the GNU operating system”)

There's no "must" that a GNU system contain GnuPG.

For example, on Debian ("GNU/Linux"), it's possible in the "testing"
version to have no gnupg package installed at all if you want a
particularly minimal system.  One narrowly-scoped tool from the GnuPG
suite (gpgv) is required if you want secure software updates, but you
can even do away with that if your updates are handled some other way
(or if it is a one-shot system that will never be updated).

That said, on most standard Debian systems, GnuPG is indeed installed by
default, and even on systems where it isn't installed by default, it's
a simple "apt install gnupg" away.

So I think this FAQ is more correct if it's re-written to say
"GNU/Linux" here and in the other place i mentioned.

Amazing how much people want to comment on the color of this particular
bikeshed!

Can we get back to improving GnuPG itself?

   --dkg


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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread ankostis
On 10 October 2017 at 20:46, Leo Gaspard  wrote:
> On 10/10/2017 06:45 PM, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote:> (where is the FAQ
> maintained, btw?  how is one expected to submit
>> patches?)
>
> I based my quotes on https://dev.gnupg.org/source/gnupg-doc.git ,
> directory web/faq, running `git grep Linux`.
>
>> I suspect that many minimal Linux-based operating systems (particularly
>> one that uses sbase instead of the GNU userland) will *not* feature a
>> suitable GnuPG tool.  So the statement above is probably more accurate
>> if you change it to GNU/Linux.
>>
>> Do you have a list of sbase+Linux distros that we can look at for
>> comparison?
>
> Hmm, I was thinking sta.li would have gnupg, but it looks like it
> doesn't come embedded. Thanks for noticing!
>
> I would thus like to withdraw this statement, as well as the other one
> you pointed out.
>
> That said, I wonder whether the sentence with “all GNU/Linux distros
> feature a suitable GnuPG tool” would make sense at all, given GnuPG is,
> as pointed out by Mike, part of the GNU operating system, which would,
> if I understand correctly, mean that as soon as the distribution
> includes GNU it must include GnuPG? (I may easily be wrong in my
> interpretation of “part of the GNU operating system”) If I'm correct and
> this would be a pleonasm, then maybe replacing it with “most Linux
> distros feature a suitable GnuPG tool, with the notable exception of
> Android” would make more sense? Then again maybe GNU/Linux would be both
> more precise and simpler indeed, despite the pleonasm.

Maybe start using "Gnu Variants"[1], because that is technically precise.
For instance, this name includes also `cygwin`, which requires the
typical configure-make-install procedure?

Those compiling GnuPG for other platform may clarify the situation.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_variants

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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Mario Castelán Castro
On 10/10/17 01:46, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
> With respect to specific distros, we ought use the name the distro
> prefers.  The Fedora Project releases Fedora, not Fedora GNU/Linux.  The
> Debian guys release Debian GNU/Linux, not Debian Linux.  The people who
> set up these distros have given their distros names, and it seems
> appropriate to use the names properly.  It is as inappropriate to refer
> to Debian Linux as it is to refer to Fedora GNU/Linux: in both cases
> that's rejecting the community's right to name their distro what they wish.

To me it appears hypocritical that you are speaking of “respecting
community rights” where the aforesaid communities (more precisely, the
founding developers who are the ones that actually choose the name of
the distribution, not the later community) have stepped over the right
of the GNU project to be given proper credit.

Recall that the most important contribution of the GNU project is not
the software packages, but starting the free software movement and
developing the most important licenses. GNU/Linux distributions are only
possible because of free software ideology, even though many such would
hate to acknowledge this.

-- 
Do not eat animals; respect them as you respect people.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+to+(become+OR+eat)+vegan



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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Mario Castelán Castro
On 10/10/17 01:46, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
> With respect to specific distros, we ought use the name the distro
> prefers.  The Fedora Project releases Fedora, not Fedora GNU/Linux.  The
> Debian guys release Debian GNU/Linux, not Debian Linux.  The people who
> set up these distros have given their distros names, and it seems
> appropriate to use the names properly.  It is as inappropriate to refer
> to Debian Linux as it is to refer to Fedora GNU/Linux: in both cases
> that's rejecting the community's right to name their distro what they wish.

To me it appears hypocritical that you are speaking of “respecting
community rights” where the aforesaid communities (more precisely, the
founding developers who are the ones that actually choose the name of
the distribution, not the later community) have stepped over the right
of recognition of the GNU projects.

The most important contribution of the GNU project is not the software
packages, but starting the free software movement. GNU/Linux
distributions are only possible because of free software.

-- 
Do not eat animals; respect them as you respect people.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+to+(become+OR+eat)+vegan



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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Mario Castelán Castro
On 10/10/17 07:13, Ralph Corderoy wrote:
> Do not change to using GNU/Linux.  It's a purely political term;  there
> is no case for technical accuracy.  Alongside GNU programs I have Clang,
> musl C library, X Windows, KDE, Firefox, LibreOffice and many other
> non-GNU project, non-GNU licensed, parts.  Singling out GNU for credit
> is unfair to those.

Your argument is self-defeating. There is no reason to single Linux. It
is just another of thousands of programs without which a computer would
be useless exactly as the others you mentioned.

-- 
Do not eat animals; respect them as you respect people.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+to+(become+OR+eat)+vegan



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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Mario Castelán Castro
On 10/10/17 04:45, Peter Lebbing wrote:
> That to me means I would support leaving it as is. I don't feel strongly
> on writing it one way or another, but I do dislike the pressure some
> people exert on others pushing their view. If however you are
> consistently writing "Microsoft Windows®" everywhere in the FAQ, I'd
> find it natural to write "GNU/Linux" as well.

This is a fallacy. Windows *is* Microsoft Windows, the only thing called
“Windows” (as a proper noun) in informatics.

Not so with “GNU/Linux”. GNU/Linux is not Linux. Linux is a kernel.
GNU/Linux is the combination of this kernel with software from the GNU
project.

The word “operating system” is too vague to have a reasonable discussion
of exactly what set of programs are part of an operating system. In any
case, it is clear that Linux is a kernel, not an operating system[1].

Also, the argument that GNU PG can be used on Linux without GNU is
invalid, for it can also be used without Linux. Several BSD variants
include GNU PG.

[1] I challenge anybody who replies with “operating system”=“kernel” to
explain how this viewpoint is compatible with the practice of calling
FreeBSD, Windows, OS X (as a whole) and so on an “operating system” and
not a “kernel”.

-- 
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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Leo Gaspard
On 10/10/2017 06:45 PM, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote:> (where is the FAQ
maintained, btw?  how is one expected to submit
> patches?)

I based my quotes on https://dev.gnupg.org/source/gnupg-doc.git ,
directory web/faq, running `git grep Linux`.

> I suspect that many minimal Linux-based operating systems (particularly
> one that uses sbase instead of the GNU userland) will *not* feature a
> suitable GnuPG tool.  So the statement above is probably more accurate
> if you change it to GNU/Linux.
> 
> Do you have a list of sbase+Linux distros that we can look at for
> comparison?

Hmm, I was thinking sta.li would have gnupg, but it looks like it
doesn't come embedded. Thanks for noticing!

I would thus like to withdraw this statement, as well as the other one
you pointed out.

That said, I wonder whether the sentence with “all GNU/Linux distros
feature a suitable GnuPG tool” would make sense at all, given GnuPG is,
as pointed out by Mike, part of the GNU operating system, which would,
if I understand correctly, mean that as soon as the distribution
includes GNU it must include GnuPG? (I may easily be wrong in my
interpretation of “part of the GNU operating system”) If I'm correct and
this would be a pleonasm, then maybe replacing it with “most Linux
distros feature a suitable GnuPG tool, with the notable exception of
Android” would make more sense? Then again maybe GNU/Linux would be both
more precise and simpler indeed, despite the pleonasm.

Thanks for the comment!
Leo



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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Daniel Kahn Gillmor
On Tue 2017-10-10 18:05:15 +0200, Leo Gaspard wrote:
> So we should call FreeBSD “GNU/FreeBSD” instead? Sorry, I could not resist.

Debian actually does ship a "port" that uses the FreeBSD kernel and the
GNU userland, and it calls it GNU/kFreeBSD.

  https://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/

This naming clarity is useful to distinguish it from the FreeBSD
operating system, which uses the FreeBSD userland with the FreeBSD
kernel.

There is no single userland required for any kernel (though some
userlands do require a specific kernel).  When we're talking about
GNU/Linux distros, we should name them for what they are.

Enjoy,

 --dkg


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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Mike Gerwitz
On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 17:56:05 +0100, Andrew Gallagher wrote:
> On 10/10/17 17:33, Mike Gerwitz wrote:
>> Not promoting its own ideals is working contrary to its goals.
>
> There is nothing in the GPL that requires one to be an evangelist. If
> the FAQ is incorrect or misleading, let's change it. But "insufficient
> fervour" is not sufficient grounds.

There may be a misunderstanding.

GnuPG is a package that is a part of the GNU operating system.  The list
of all such packages can be found here:

  https://www.gnu.org/software/

GNU is usually used with the kernel Linux.  GNU doesn't require that
packages support any other kernel (e.g. Hurd).  But the operating system
is GNU.  GnuPG works on other operating systems, but GNU only requires
that it work best on GNU, or at least as well as other operating
systems.

The GPL is unrelated to this discussion.

-- 
Mike Gerwitz
Free Software Hacker+Activist | GNU Maintainer & Volunteer
GPG: D6E9 B930 028A 6C38 F43B  2388 FEF6 3574 5E6F 6D05
https://mikegerwitz.com


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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Andrew Gallagher
On 10/10/17 17:33, Mike Gerwitz wrote:
> Not promoting its own ideals is working contrary to its goals.

There is nothing in the GPL that requires one to be an evangelist. If
the FAQ is incorrect or misleading, let's change it. But "insufficient
fervour" is not sufficient grounds.

-- 
Andrew Gallagher



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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Daniel Kahn Gillmor
Thanks for going through the specific instances of Linux in the FAQ,
Leo.  This is what i was asking for when i was wondering whether a
concrete diff has been proposed.

(where is the FAQ maintained, btw?  how is one expected to submit
patches?)

I agree with all of Leo's conclusions except for the following:

On Tue 2017-10-10 18:03:52 +0200, Leo Gaspard wrote:
>> (all Linux distros feature a suitable GnuPG tool)
>
> Do we really want to exclude distros based on the Linux kernel but not
> on the GNU base utilities, but rather on eg. sbase [1]? I'd say there is
> no compelling reason to, so no reason to switch to GNU/Linux here.

I suspect that many minimal Linux-based operating systems (particularly
one that uses sbase instead of the GNU userland) will *not* feature a
suitable GnuPG tool.  So the statement above is probably more accurate
if you change it to GNU/Linux.

Do you have a list of sbase+Linux distros that we can look at for
comparison?

Certainly, the Linux distro known as Android does *not* feature a
suitable GnuPG tool :(

>> *** … for Linux?
>>
>> The bad news is there is no single, consistent way to install GnuPG on
>> Linux systems.  The good news is that it’s usually installed by
>> default, so nothing needs to be downloaded!
>
> The same argument leads me to think there is no reason to switch to
> GNU/Linux here again; distros without the GNU userspace don't have an
> easier way to install than distros with the GNU userspace as far as I know.

Again, i think this FAQ section is actually talking about GNU/Linux
systems, and it would be more appropriate to say that explicitly, rather
than to pretend that this covers every Linux-based operating system (it
clearly does not).

 --dkg


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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Mike Gerwitz
On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 12:37:15 -0300, Duane Whitty wrote:
> On 17-10-10 10:13 AM, Mike Gerwitz wrote:
>> GnuPG is part of the GNU operating system.  Anywhere "Linux" is
>> used to describe the GNU/Linux operating system, "GNU/Linux" should
>> be used.
>>
>> Please see:
>>
>> https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/maintain.html#GNU-and-Linux
>>
> I respect your point-of-view and your right to express it.  I would
> like to point out though that this link, from gnu.org, would be
> expected (at least by me) to promote a GNU centric and rightfully
> self-promoting view of how to proceed.

Of course it does.  GnuPG is _part of_ the GNU Project.  Not promoting
its own ideals is working contrary to its goals.

The link I provided is GNU policy.

-- 
Mike Gerwitz
Free Software Hacker+Activist | GNU Maintainer & Volunteer
GPG: D6E9 B930 028A 6C38 F43B  2388 FEF6 3574 5E6F 6D05
https://mikegerwitz.com


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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Mike Gerwitz
On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 18:03:52 +0200, Leo Gaspard wrote:
> On 10/10/2017 03:13 PM, Mike Gerwitz wrote:
>> On Mon, Oct 09, 2017 at 22:06:17 -0400, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>>> A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ be
>>> replaced with "GNU/Linux".
>> 
>> GnuPG is part of the GNU operating system.  Anywhere "Linux" is used to
>> describe the GNU/Linux operating system, "GNU/Linux" should be used.
>
> The occurences of “Linux” in the FAQ are in the following sentences,
> according to a `git grep` in the FAQ directory:

I haven't looked over the FAQ personally; I was just providing GNU's
stance on the issue.

But thank you for outlining it.

>> Except for a slight wording change, this DCO is identical to the one
> used by the Linux kernel.
>
> This sentence clearly deserves a Linux and not GNU/Linux... regardless
> of whether GnuPG is part of the “GNU operating system” (sorry for the
> quotes, it's the first time I hear this phrase) or not.

Yes, that shouldn't be GNU/Linux.

>> - Linux is a trademark of Linus Torvalds.
>
> Clearly Linux and not GNU/Linux once again.

Right.

>> (all Linux distros feature a suitable GnuPG tool)
>
> Do we really want to exclude distros based on the Linux kernel but not
> on the GNU base utilities, but rather on eg. sbase [1]? I'd say there is
> no compelling reason to, so no reason to switch to GNU/Linux here.

If the intent is really to convey any distribution using the kernel
Linux, then it could say any "distros based on the kernel Linux", or
more weakly "Linux-based".

I don't think that's what it means.

>> *** … for Linux?
>>
>> The bad news is there is no single, consistent way to install GnuPG on
>> Linux systems.  The good news is that it’s usually installed by
>> default, so nothing needs to be downloaded!
>
> The same argument leads me to think there is no reason to switch to
> GNU/Linux here again; distros without the GNU userspace don't have an
> easier way to install than distros with the GNU userspace as far as I know.

"Linux system" is explicitly mentioned as something to avoid in the
maintainers document I referenced.

>>  … for Debian GNU/Linux or Ubuntu?
>
> It's already GNU/Linux.

Good!

>> ** … Linux or FreeBSD?
>>
>> [Follows a list of email clients compatible with non-{Windows,Mac}
>> operating systems]
>
> Do Thunderbird, Gnus, Mutt, Kontact, Evolution or Claws-Mail not work on
> computers which would have swapped the GNU userland with eg. sbase? If
> so, maybe it'd be good to add a note stating that it doesn't work
> without GNU tools, but I don't see any reason to exclude
> non-GNU-userspace-based Linux distribution from the list, especially
> given how FreeBSD is included in there too.

Same as above.

In any case, GNU packages have a bias toward GNU.  Emphasizing
"Linux-based" systems instead of GNU isn't much different than Apple
advertising BSD-based systems instead of Mac.

-- 
Mike Gerwitz
Free Software Hacker+Activist | GNU Maintainer & Volunteer
GPG: D6E9 B930 028A 6C38 F43B  2388 FEF6 3574 5E6F 6D05
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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Duane Whitty
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256



On 17-10-09 11:06 PM, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
> A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ
> be replaced with "GNU/Linux".
> 
> I'm not inclined to make this change.  However, in order to make
> sure that the FAQ reflects the community's wishes, I'm submitting
> the proposal here for community feedback.
> 
> If anyone has strong feelings on it one way or another, chime in.
> 
> ___ Gnupg-users mailing
> list Gnupg-users@gnupg.org 
> http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users
> 
Rob, thanks for taking time out of your day and busy schedule for
dealing with this issue.  Too bad it is such a contentious issue for
so many people.  Thank you for your fairness and collaborative and
community minded approach.

Best Regards,
Duane

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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Duane Whitty
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256



On 17-10-09 11:06 PM, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
> A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ
> be replaced with "GNU/Linux".
> 
> I'm not inclined to make this change.  However, in order to make
> sure that the FAQ reflects the community's wishes, I'm submitting
> the proposal here for community feedback.
> 
> If anyone has strong feelings on it one way or another, chime in.
> 
> ___ Gnupg-users mailing
> list Gnupg-users@gnupg.org 
> http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users
> 
I just did a search for the term "Linux" in the FAQ.  I did this so
that the conversation would be about a concrete instance and not based
so much on abstract concepts.  The search returned four instances of
the word "Linux".

First match was a trademark attribution of the term "Linux" to Linus
Torvalds.

The second match was in a sub-header for section 3.6 "From where can I
download it…" "… for Linux?" with text as follows (containing 3rd match)
:

"The bad news is there is no single, consistent way to install GnuPG
on Linux systems. The good news is that it’s usually installed by
default, so nothing needs to be downloaded!"

In this context does Linux mean any system running the Linux kernel or
does it mean something else?

The fourth match is "… for Debian GNU/Linux or Ubuntu?" also a part of
the section "From where can I download it…"


Best Regards,
Duane

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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Ralph Corderoy
Hi Mario,

> Your argument is self-defeating. There is no reason to single Linux.
> It is just another of thousands of programs without which a computer
> would be useless exactly as the others you mentioned.

You snipped the bit where I said "Linux" has two meanings in the English
language depending on context.  Given your admirable, though misplaced,
zeal, I doubt there's a considered argument to be had here.

-- 
Cheers, Ralph.
https://plus.google.com/+RalphCorderoy

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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Leo Gaspard
On 10/10/2017 03:13 PM, Mike Gerwitz wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 09, 2017 at 22:06:17 -0400, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>> A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ be
>> replaced with "GNU/Linux".
> 
> GnuPG is part of the GNU operating system.  Anywhere "Linux" is used to
> describe the GNU/Linux operating system, "GNU/Linux" should be used.

The occurences of “Linux” in the FAQ are in the following sentences,
according to a `git grep` in the FAQ directory:

> Except for a slight wording change, this DCO is identical to the one
used by the Linux kernel.

This sentence clearly deserves a Linux and not GNU/Linux... regardless
of whether GnuPG is part of the “GNU operating system” (sorry for the
quotes, it's the first time I hear this phrase) or not.

> - Linux is a trademark of Linus Torvalds.

Clearly Linux and not GNU/Linux once again.

> (all Linux distros feature a suitable GnuPG tool)

Do we really want to exclude distros based on the Linux kernel but not
on the GNU base utilities, but rather on eg. sbase [1]? I'd say there is
no compelling reason to, so no reason to switch to GNU/Linux here.

> *** … for Linux?
>
> The bad news is there is no single, consistent way to install GnuPG on
> Linux systems.  The good news is that it’s usually installed by
> default, so nothing needs to be downloaded!

The same argument leads me to think there is no reason to switch to
GNU/Linux here again; distros without the GNU userspace don't have an
easier way to install than distros with the GNU userspace as far as I know.

>  … for Debian GNU/Linux or Ubuntu?

It's already GNU/Linux.

> ** … Linux or FreeBSD?
>
> [Follows a list of email clients compatible with non-{Windows,Mac}
> operating systems]

Do Thunderbird, Gnus, Mutt, Kontact, Evolution or Claws-Mail not work on
computers which would have swapped the GNU userland with eg. sbase? If
so, maybe it'd be good to add a note stating that it doesn't work
without GNU tools, but I don't see any reason to exclude
non-GNU-userspace-based Linux distribution from the list, especially
given how FreeBSD is included in there too.


Thus, I'm not in favor of any change to the current FAQ, to replace a
Linux by a GNU/Linux.

Cheers,
Leo


[1] https://core.suckless.org/sbase



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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Leo Gaspard
On 10/10/2017 05:55 PM, Mario Castelán Castro wrote:
> On 10/10/17 01:46, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>> With respect to specific distros, we ought use the name the distro
>> prefers.  The Fedora Project releases Fedora, not Fedora GNU/Linux.  The
>> Debian guys release Debian GNU/Linux, not Debian Linux.  The people who
>> set up these distros have given their distros names, and it seems
>> appropriate to use the names properly.  It is as inappropriate to refer
>> to Debian Linux as it is to refer to Fedora GNU/Linux: in both cases
>> that's rejecting the community's right to name their distro what they wish.
> 
> To me it appears hypocritical that you are speaking of “respecting
> community rights” where the aforesaid communities (more precisely, the
> founding developers who are the ones that actually choose the name of
> the distribution, not the later community) have stepped over the right
> of the GNU project to be given proper credit.
> 
> Recall that the most important contribution of the GNU project is not
> the software packages, but starting the free software movement and
> developing the most important licenses. GNU/Linux distributions are only
> possible because of free software ideology, even though many such would
> hate to acknowledge this.

So we should call FreeBSD “GNU/FreeBSD” instead? Sorry, I could not resist.



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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Ralph Corderoy
Hi Mario,

> the argument that GNU PG can be used on Linux

Please note, it's "GnuPG".  That's the project name.  If you wish to
acknowledge that it's a GNU project then it's GNU GnuPG.  :-)

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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Duane Whitty
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Hash: SHA256



On 17-10-10 10:13 AM, Mike Gerwitz wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 09, 2017 at 22:06:17 -0400, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>> A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ
>> be replaced with "GNU/Linux".
> 
> GnuPG is part of the GNU operating system.  Anywhere "Linux" is
> used to describe the GNU/Linux operating system, "GNU/Linux" should
> be used.
> 
> Please see:
> 
> https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/maintain.html#GNU-and-Linux
> 
I respect your point-of-view and your right to express it.  I would
like to point out though that this link, from gnu.org, would be
expected (at least by me) to promote a GNU centric and rightfully
self-promoting view of how to proceed.

> 
> 
> ___ Gnupg-users mailing
> list Gnupg-users@gnupg.org 
> http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users
> 
I believe FAQ should be left as is.

Best Regards,
Duane

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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Andrew Gallagher
On 10/10/17 13:13, Ralph Corderoy wrote:
> 
> Those preferring GNU/Linux are more likely to reply.

This is a universal problem that is not understood well enough. If you
want to know what people actually think, you have to a) actively survey
them, and b) control for biases in the responses. This is a nontrivial
process. Anything else tells you at best what memes are trendy[1], and
at worst what factions are committed to entryism[2]. ;-)

[1] #boatymcboatface
[2]
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11741861/How-you-can-help-Jeremy-Corbyn-win-and-destroy-the-Labour-Party.html

-- 
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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread ankostis
+1
The are very few references of "Linux" in the FAQ btw.

On Tue 10 Oct 2017, 16:42 Mike Gerwitz,  wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 09, 2017 at 22:06:17 -0400, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
> > A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ be
> > replaced with "GNU/Linux".
>
> GnuPG is part of the GNU operating system.  Anywhere "Linux" is used to
> describe the GNU/Linux operating system, "GNU/Linux" should be used.
>
> Please see:
>
>   https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/maintain.html#GNU-and-Linux
>
> --
> Mike Gerwitz
> Free Software Hacker+Activist | GNU Maintainer & Volunteer
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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Mike Gerwitz
On Mon, Oct 09, 2017 at 22:06:17 -0400, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
> A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ be
> replaced with "GNU/Linux".

GnuPG is part of the GNU operating system.  Anywhere "Linux" is used to
describe the GNU/Linux operating system, "GNU/Linux" should be used.

Please see:

  https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/maintain.html#GNU-and-Linux

-- 
Mike Gerwitz
Free Software Hacker+Activist | GNU Maintainer & Volunteer
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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Ralph Corderoy
Hi Robert,

> A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ be
> replaced with "GNU/Linux".

I thought this zealotry had fizzled out about 2013.  :-)

> However, in order to make sure that the FAQ reflects the community's
> wishes, I'm submitting the proposal here for community feedback.

Those preferring GNU/Linux are more likely to reply.

> If anyone has strong feelings on it one way or another, chime in.

Do not change to using GNU/Linux.  It's a purely political term;  there
is no case for technical accuracy.  Alongside GNU programs I have Clang,
musl C library, X Windows, KDE, Firefox, LibreOffice and many other
non-GNU project, non-GNU licensed, parts.  Singling out GNU for credit
is unfair to those.

"Linux" can be the kernel or a distro.  Context makes this clear in the
majority of cases.  Appending `kernel' or `distribution' in the odd
remaining case is sufficient.

GNU/Linux is more awkward to read, and to verbalise in the mind.  Using
RMS's declaration of correction pronunciation, "GNU slash Linux" or "GNU
plus Linux", makes this worse.  (He argues, correctly, saying "GNU
Linux" is wrong because it suggests Linux is a GNU project.)

The term GNU/Linux is dying a natural death.  Do not resuscitate.

-- 
Cheers, Ralph.
https://plus.google.com/+RalphCorderoy

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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread charlie derr
On 10/09/2017 11:20 PM, Francesco Ariis wrote:
> Hello Robert,
>
> On Mon, Oct 09, 2017 at 10:06:17PM -0400, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>> A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ be
>> replaced with "GNU/Linux".
> A request has been made by whom?
>
>> I'm not inclined to make this change.  However, in order to make sure
>> that the FAQ reflects the community's wishes, I'm submitting the
>> proposal here for community feedback.
>>
>> If anyone has strong feelings on it one way or another, chime in.
> I would say it is a fair change.

+1

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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread ankostis
On 10 October 2017 at 08:46, Robert J. Hansen  wrote:
> ...
> In the FAQ, wherever "Linux" is used as a generic descriptor it is in a
> context where the presence of GNU utilities is irrelevant.  Example:
> "there is no single, consistent way to install GnuPG on Linux systems."
> The truth/validity of that statement is in no way dependent on whether
> one's talking about a system that uses the GNU userland or the BSD userland.

Is there Linux with BSD userland?

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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Shawn K. Quinn
On 10/10/2017 01:46 AM, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>> However, if the GnuPG FAQ is talking about an operating system built
>> from the Linux kernel and the GNU userland (coreutils, libc, etc), then
>> "GNU/Linux" is not only the respectful term to use, it's the more
>> accurate and precise term.
> 
> I disagree.  It's a more political term.

There is nothing political about giving proper credit to the GNU Project
for the operating system (the software which Linux, the kernel, boots
into in order to provide a useful system).

> With respect to specific distros, we ought use the name the distro
> prefers.  The Fedora Project releases Fedora, not Fedora GNU/Linux.  The
> Debian guys release Debian GNU/Linux, not Debian Linux.  The people who
> set up these distros have given their distros names, and it seems
> appropriate to use the names properly.  It is as inappropriate to refer
> to Debian Linux as it is to refer to Fedora GNU/Linux: in both cases
> that's rejecting the community's right to name their distro what they wish.

I will happily refer to, for example, Ubuntu GNU/Linux since there is
clearly a GNU userland surrounding Linux, the kernel. I feel wrong doing
otherwise.

> When speaking generically about operating systems using the Linux
> kernel, there it seems GNU is also inappropriate.  GNU is not an
> inseparable part of Linux; we should not promulgate the myth they are.

I agree that it is possible to use other userlands (BSD derivatives, or
whatever Android is) with Linux, the kernel. However, the vast majority
of so-called "Linux distributions" in fact rely on GNU software (most
notably GNU coreutils and GNU libc) to function.

> In the FAQ, wherever "Linux" is used as a generic descriptor it is in a
> context where the presence of GNU utilities is irrelevant.  Example:
> "there is no single, consistent way to install GnuPG on Linux systems."

s/on Linux systems/on systems which boot using Linux, the kernel/

-- 
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http://www.skqrecordquest.com



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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Peter Lebbing
On 10/10/17 04:06, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
> I'm not inclined to make this change.

That to me means I would support leaving it as is. I don't feel strongly
on writing it one way or another, but I do dislike the pressure some
people exert on others pushing their view. If however you are
consistently writing "Microsoft Windows®" everywhere in the FAQ, I'd
find it natural to write "GNU/Linux" as well.

I think you should pick your fights. That means I think people shouldn't
be pushing others to include GNU/. It also means I would soon capitulate
and just give them their way, changing it to GNU/Linux. It's just not
worth it. Luckily, I've yet to see people pushing to drop the GNU/ :-).

> If anyone has strong feelings on it one way or another, chime in.

I'm chiming in to say I don't have strong feelings :-D.

Cheers,

Peter.

-- 
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You can send me encrypted mail if you want some privacy.
My key is available at 



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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Werner Koch
On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 04:06, r...@sixdemonbag.org said:
> A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ be
> replaced with "GNU/Linux".

Some distros call themselves "Foo GNU/Linux" and if the part of the FAQ
is about this specific distro, you should call it this way.  However in
most cases "Linux" describes the environment well enough and there is no
need to confuse people.

I'd say, keep it as it is.


Shalom-Salam,

   Werner



p.s.
Remember: “Nobody expects the Free Software Police.”

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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Robert J. Hansen
> However, if the GnuPG FAQ is talking about an operating system built
> from the Linux kernel and the GNU userland (coreutils, libc, etc), then
> "GNU/Linux" is not only the respectful term to use, it's the more
> accurate and precise term.

I disagree.  It's a more political term.

With respect to specific distros, we ought use the name the distro
prefers.  The Fedora Project releases Fedora, not Fedora GNU/Linux.  The
Debian guys release Debian GNU/Linux, not Debian Linux.  The people who
set up these distros have given their distros names, and it seems
appropriate to use the names properly.  It is as inappropriate to refer
to Debian Linux as it is to refer to Fedora GNU/Linux: in both cases
that's rejecting the community's right to name their distro what they wish.

When speaking generically about operating systems using the Linux
kernel, there it seems GNU is also inappropriate.  GNU is not an
inseparable part of Linux; we should not promulgate the myth they are.

In the FAQ, wherever "Linux" is used as a generic descriptor it is in a
context where the presence of GNU utilities is irrelevant.  Example:
"there is no single, consistent way to install GnuPG on Linux systems."
The truth/validity of that statement is in no way dependent on whether
one's talking about a system that uses the GNU userland or the BSD userland.

In those cases where "Linux" is used to open a segment detailing how
GnuPG works on different distros, I use the distro's preferred full name
or shortened name:

Debian GNU/Linux
Ubuntu
OpenSUSE
Fedora
CentOS
RHEL
Slackware
Gentoo

> Note that GnuPG also builds against (and runs on) other operating
> systems that use GNU but do *not* use Linux, such as Debian's
> GNU/kFreeBSD and GNU/Hurd ports.

Yes, but they aren't mentioned in the FAQ.



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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Thomas Harning Jr.
On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 11:20 PM, Francesco Ariis  wrote:
> Hello Robert,
>
> On Mon, Oct 09, 2017 at 10:06:17PM -0400, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>> A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ be
>> replaced with "GNU/Linux".
>

GNU/Linux assumes a GNU userland. There exists some with it not as
default. Alpine in its minimal state uses busybox for much
functionality.

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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Daniel Kahn Gillmor
On Mon 2017-10-09 22:06:17 -0400, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
> A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ be
> replaced with "GNU/Linux".
>
> I'm not inclined to make this change.  However, in order to make sure
> that the FAQ reflects the community's wishes, I'm submitting the
> proposal here for community feedback.
>
> If anyone has strong feelings on it one way or another, chime in.

Is there a specific patch to consider?  I wouldn't agree to a blind
s~Linux~GNU/Linux~g replacement, but for specific instances it's likely
to be a quite reasonable request.

Not all instances of "Linux" are generically replaceable by GNU/Linux --
for instance, if we're talking specifically about the kernel, then it
should remain just Linux (e.g. "Android uses the Linux kernel").
However, if the GnuPG FAQ is talking about an operating system built
from the Linux kernel and the GNU userland (coreutils, libc, etc), then
"GNU/Linux" is not only the respectful term to use, it's the more
accurate and precise term.

Note that GnuPG also builds against (and runs on) other operating
systems that use GNU but do *not* use Linux, such as Debian's
GNU/kFreeBSD and GNU/Hurd ports.

   https://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/
   https://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/

The FAQ should be both accurate and precise.  We don't want users
thinking that GnuPG will run on Android just because Android is a Linux
operating system.

Regards,

--dkg


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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-10 Thread Michael Englehorn

On 2017-10-09 21:06, Robert J. Hansen wrote:

A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ be
replaced with "GNU/Linux".


I think it's redundant, besides, what if I were to replace all of the 
userland utilities with my own, or some other non-gnu userland? It would 
still be Linux, and Gnupg would continue working (provided the new 
userland could compile it). ;)


Also, I don't think "GNU/Linux" is a trademark of Linus. Linux is more 
generic and possibly more correct than GNU/Linux.


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Re: FAQ and GNU

2017-10-09 Thread Francesco Ariis
Hello Robert,

On Mon, Oct 09, 2017 at 10:06:17PM -0400, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
> A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ be
> replaced with "GNU/Linux".

A request has been made by whom?

> I'm not inclined to make this change.  However, in order to make sure
> that the FAQ reflects the community's wishes, I'm submitting the
> proposal here for community feedback.
> 
> If anyone has strong feelings on it one way or another, chime in.

I would say it is a fair change.

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