Re: Unconventional *roff practices

2025-01-21 Thread Robert Thorsby

On 22/1/25 02:31, Martin Lemaire wrote:

Born in a millennial GUI graphic design culture, I am slowly making my way 
towards textual practices allowing one to typeset text to be printed from 
frugal realms.

As a tool initially thought in order to normalize the writing of a thesis and 
the production of patents, can you think of any typeset productions made using 
(g)(t)r(un)off that step away from the default font and composition decisions ?

Furthermore, has there been communities of *roff users with an artistic or 
experimental perspective ?


Hi Martin,

I heartily endorse Peter Schaffter's mom macro package. The mom macro is 
the *only* package currently maintained; furthermore it has also been 
"modernized" by the use of more meaningful descriptions for its commands 
and requests. It is also extremely well documented.


If I may blow Peter's trumpet for him: if mom can't do it, it can't be 
done. Actually, I take that back: if mom can't do it, Peter will tell 
you the workaround (usually while waiting for him to include yet another 
feature into his next mom release).


FWIW, most people on this list are dinosaurs who predate the World Wide 
Web. We were brought up in an age of paper documentation and delivery by 
the Post Office (Postal Service). As such, most of us had, and still 
have, "business applications" which generated all our business 
documentation. In my case, all the documents for my photographic studio, 
including model releases, booking confirmations, invoices (with cute 
"PAID" stamp overlays), as well as standard business letters (on 
letterhead stationery) were all generated from scratch using groff and 
bash scripts.


In the early 2000s, as an exercise, I set out to produce the three 
children's books that are the categories of awards here in Australia for 
the annual Book Week prizes. I suspect that most countries in the 
western world have similar events. The most challenging by far was to 
produce my dummy entry into the "Very Young Child" category -- two 
signatures, 800 words, every leaf a different layout with at least one 
graphic, many full page bleeds over double pages (not only centrefolds), 
text along crazy paths, Title page, colophon, etc. It was all done with 
groff, no general macro package but lots of pure postscript, and glued 
together by bash. The only external applications were the graphics 
programs to produce the illustrations and a standard Linux imposition 
application. Unfortunately, when moving home a kind helper threw out 
both the floppy disks that contained the applications I had written and 
the paper copy of the outputs -- floppy disks, no one uses these anymore 
-- lorem ipsum, this is nonsense, you don't need this -- I didn't know 
what happened until after the garbage skip had been taken away.


As a final note, you can be counted as a dinosaur on this list if you 
look at the substantive contents of a normal business letter, "Re your 
26th ultimo we wish to advise that the cheque in in the mail.", and then 
start kerning it.


Cheers,
Robert Thorsby
Don't only practice your Art, but force your way into its Secrets, for 
it and Knowledge can raise Men to the Divine.

  -- Ludwig van Beethoven




Re: Unconventional *roff practices

2025-01-21 Thread Peter Schaffter
Martin --

On Tue, Jan 21, 2025, Martin Lemaire wrote:
> As a tool initially thought in order to normalize the writing of a
> thesis and the production of patents, can you think of any typeset
> productions made using (g)(t)r(un)off that step away from the
> default font and composition decisions ?

If by "typeset productions" you mean examples of work produced using
groff, check out

  https://www.schaffter.ca/pdf/linux-midi-orchestration.pdf

Scanning through it gives a good overview of what can be
accomplished with groff when you step outside the defaults.  The
book was produced cover-to-cover with the mom macros and generated
with a single call to groff (pdfmon, actually, which is a wrapper
for direct pdf output).

-- 
Peter Schaffter
https://www.schaffter.ca



Re: Unconventional *roff practices

2025-01-21 Thread onf
Hi Martin,

On Tue Jan 21, 2025 at 4:31 PM CET, Martin Lemaire wrote:
> [...]
> As a tool initially thought in order to normalize the writing of a
> thesis and the production of patents, can you think of any typeset
> productions made using (g)(t)r(un)off that step away from the default
> font and composition decisions ? [...]

The most non-idiomatic roff macro package I can think of is meta, which
was apparently an experiment to write roff in the same way as LaTeX:
  http://cowlark.com/meta/

Its feature of nested elements in particular is interesting, and has
lead me to experiment with designing macros with composability similar
to HTML/CSS. Unfortunately, it quickly turned into a very buggy pile of
abstractions and complexity. My conclusion from the whole endeavor was
that the reason troff isn't the sort of complicated mess LaTeX is, is
precisely because it doesn't try to abstract stuff away and does things
in the simplest way possible. This means you have to support elaborate
typesetting demands yourself, but also that it's much easier to
understand and debug.

~ onf