Re: Misconduct of GTK+/glib Bugtracker Admins
On Thu, 4 Jun 2015 13:11:55 -0600 IgnorantGuru ignorantg...@openmailbox.org wrote: Greetings. Not sure where is the best place to bring this - input welcome - but this email is an official complaint against the conduct of: I haven't had the pleasure to converse with Andre Klapper, but I can attest to the predisposition of Matthias and Emmanuele in more than one occasion. I can only admire the huge quantity of issues both are involved in, and they still take the time to answer (sometimes rather basic) questions of many users. As Michael Torrie suggested, if you submitted a patch, and it solves a real problem, I can't see your patch being refused. Unless it introduces more problems than it solves... I'm sure the developpers would be grateful, as would millions of users. Anyway, I'm a great open source fan, and I (try to) contribute as much as I can. John ___ gtk-app-devel-list mailing list gtk-app-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-app-devel-list
Re: Misconduct of GTK+/glib Bugtracker Admins
On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 8:59 PM, IgnorantGuru ignorantg...@openmailbox.org wrote: On Sun, 7 Jun 2015 19:25:56 +0200 John Tall mjta...@gmail.com wrote: GTK+ is not a Red Hat project. Another good example here is this very complaint. A real free project would have developers who are held accountable for their actions. One reason I sent this complaint to this list is because there's simply no where to take it. And there has been no response from anyone in an official capacity. These developers are abusive and give misinformation, and if you confront it in the bug report, they delete comments and threaten to block you. If I was to work the complaint up the chain of command, guess whose desktop it would land on? I don't think you understand how GNOME works. There is no chain of command, just a lot of more or less related projects that are developed closely together. You can read my Rotting In Threes article if you haven't seen it for more examples of how these developers were and are treating people - this is hardly a new problem in your project: https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/gnome-et-al-rotting-in-threes/ I don't think we're getting anywhere with this. You have obviously been very negative on GNOME for some time now. Maybe you should have spent all that time on actually improving the platform. John ___ gtk-app-devel-list mailing list gtk-app-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-app-devel-list
Re: Misconduct of GTK+/glib Bugtracker Admins
On Sun, 7 Jun 2015 21:17:15 +0200 John Tall mjta...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 8:59 PM, IgnorantGuru ignorantg...@openmailbox.org wrote: On Sun, 7 Jun 2015 19:25:56 +0200 John Tall mjta...@gmail.com wrote: GTK+ is not a Red Hat project. Another good example here is this very complaint. A real free project would have developers who are held accountable for their actions. One reason I sent this complaint to this list is because there's simply no where to take it. And there has been no response from anyone in an official capacity. These developers are abusive and give misinformation, and if you confront it in the bug report, they delete comments and threaten to block you. If I was to work the complaint up the chain of command, guess whose desktop it would land on? I don't think you understand how GNOME works. There is no chain of command, just a lot of more or less related projects that are developed closely together. You can read my Rotting In Threes article if you haven't seen it for more examples of how these developers were and are treating people - this is hardly a new problem in your project: https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/gnome-et-al-rotting-in-threes/ I don't think we're getting anywhere with this. You have obviously been very negative on GNOME for some time now. Maybe you should have spent all that time on actually improving the platform. John I'm not a GNOME hater - I really don't care much about it at all. I don't use any DE anymore, and have never liked them in general. I never used GNOME, but I tend to be more aligned with the old GNOME philosophy, and my software falls on the G side, so I have many GNOME users (and many who have recently abandoned it). I certainly have no interest in contributing to it. I use Openbox. I might contribute to GTK+ but it is effectively a closed project - you can't contribute unless you follow Red Hat orders. I've spend a great deal of time developing free software, if you're implying I've never contributed to anything. You say there is no chain of command, yet some people have commit privs and some don't. Some people can block and delete comments and some can't. Some can decide developers or admins are stepping out of bounds and address the problem, while others can only watch and make excuses. Obviously that's a chain of command, not merely peers, whether you call it that or not. And most of those people are in that corporate club - GTK+ can't go anywhere Red Hat doesn't approve of, and they decide the engineering direction (often completely against the wishes of users and long-time contributors - I hear from them plenty via my blog). As for the Red Hat company, like many people I ignorantly thought they were just an old Linux distro. I didn't have any bias there either. Yet now I know their size (in the billions), their affiliations with mega corporations, govt, and military (their largest customer is the military actually [quoted from 2006]), and how they dictatorially control most of Linux via systemd, kdbus, udev, udisks, Xorg, and many more - all projects where Red Hat controls the development, the commits. Doesn't leave much else. Everyone running Linux runs Red Hat (unless you have no Xorg or udev, for example). You can call this conspiracy but you'll notice they're simple facts. Even Linus spends most of his time fighting Red Hat. That's nothing new, nor is corporate incursion into Linux, but the engineering has definitely changed radically lately, taking us to a Microsoft Windows-called-Linux (the whole systemd debate). Thus I think taking GTK+ out of Red Hat's hands, in any way possible (forking, etc), is wise. I also think that getting control of their developers that obstruct and try to rule the bugtracker is wise, iif you think you really do have any say anymore. If you don't do it, they're just destroying and overwriting the work people put into it. ___ gtk-app-devel-list mailing list gtk-app-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-app-devel-list
Re: Misconduct of GTK+/glib Bugtracker Admins
On Sun, 7 Jun 2015 19:25:56 +0200 John Tall mjta...@gmail.com wrote: And you want the GNOME developers to support all of them? I want GTK+ developers to stick to GUI development with minimal dependencies, and certainly no DE-specific dependencies, and not engage the entire Red Hat stack in the GUI, as they've already tried to do multiple times, including in their handling of this bug report. GTK+ does not require systemd. Tell that to the Red Hat devs - they seem to believe there are requirements for it. GTK+ does not require GNOME. Indeed, and that is why it still has value to me and my users, and why I described as misinformation the distortions being given by those GTK+ developers, who were telling us that we can't expect GTK+ to operate reasonably when we pick and choose components, or don't install all of GNOME (gvfs etc), and we can expect no support without GNOME. GTK+ does not care about the init system or distro. Indeed, and yet those Red Hat employees were telling us that systemd should be universal, and were injecting that discussion into a GTK+/GIO bug, obstructing a trivial solution. I wonder why. GTK+ is not a Red Hat project. Try making a commit without Red Hat's permission, or making any change in a direction Red Hat doesn't approve of. Try reporting any bug like this one, and see who responds, and how, and who starts threatening people. Anyone volunteering efforts to GTK is being scammed. GTK used to be a community-driven and created project, now Red Hat is merely exploiting volunteers, ignoring user input (users are furious), and dictating engineering directions. Real free software developers listen to users. Corporations don't, they dictate. You can measure a Linux project pretty easily that way. ___ gtk-app-devel-list mailing list gtk-app-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-app-devel-list
Re: Misconduct of GTK+/glib Bugtracker Admins
Le 7 juin 2015, IgnorantGuru a écrit : As for who agrees with me and who doesn't, outside of fanboy lists and such, most people I encounter are QUITE unhappy with GTK 3, and often ask why I use it at all. Indeed, can't you go back and use GTK 2 instead ? (Maybe does this bug exist in GTK2 as well?) -- Lucas Levrel ___ gtk-app-devel-list mailing list gtk-app-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-app-devel-list
Re: Misconduct of GTK+/glib Bugtracker Admins
On Sun, 7 Jun 2015 21:20:52 +0200 (CEST) Lucas Levrel llev...@yahoo.fr wrote: Le 7 juin 2015, IgnorantGuru a écrit : As for who agrees with me and who doesn't, outside of fanboy lists and such, most people I encounter are QUITE unhappy with GTK 3, and often ask why I use it at all. Indeed, can't you go back and use GTK 2 instead ? (Maybe does this bug exist in GTK2 as well?) Actually my SpaceFM builds with both GTK2 and GTK3. Since this bug is rooted in gio, part of glib, I think both are affected. I retain GTK2 support in the app because many users prefer it (myself included), and it's a fallback if GTK3 development makes it unusable, a distinct possibility in my view. If I'm forced to choose at some point, I'll abandon GTK3. For this reason, I recommend that those upgrading to GTK3 instead make it dual-build. You can see SpaceFM's primary method here: https://github.com/IgnorantGuru/spacefm/blob/ee45e43d10efaa45e855d02317be7a21fae26183/src/gtk2-compat.h And there are a few other adjustments throughout the code, but not much required. To me it looks like they deliberately broke backwards compatibility with GTK2 - it was wholey unnecessary. SpaceFM, which is a multi-panel file and desktop manager that uses many widgets, custom widgets, cairo drawing on the desktop, many dialogs, etc., yet fairly easily can be doctored to run on both, is proof of this. However, that bug itself affects my software minimally, as it uses the chooser minimally, and I could always add the missing volumes manually were they critical. However my users have complained about it because things they mount in my FM don't appear in the GTK+ chooser of Gnome and GTK apps generally. So it's more of an interoperability and annoyance issue across apps using GTK+. A very minor one in my view, hardly worth all that nonsense, distortion, or confusion. ___ gtk-app-devel-list mailing list gtk-app-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-app-devel-list
Re: Misconduct of GTK+/glib Bugtracker Admins
Hello, I’m sorry to say that, but I find your name very appropriate in this case: *Ignorant* Guru. You seem to ignore every statement that says something else that you do. GNOME is not a Red Hat product. It is a GNOME Foundation product, if you want to put it anywhere. It is led by several developers, Red Hat employees or not, who put a lot of effort to make it better. I personally know that they *do* accept patches, as I have sent some of them in the past, and possibly will send more in the future. You were told several times that if you don’t like the way it works, then create a patch: GNOME developers don’t necessarily have the time to make this work for you. You can see how many problems they have to deal with either by looking at the bug tracker or the IRC channel they hang around on. I try to repeat what so many others said before in this thread: if you have put half the effort into writing a patch instead of writing such not-well backed complaints, this problem should have been solved already. Disclaimer: I’m not officially connected with GNOME nor Red Hat, Inc. I just use GNOME since 1.something, and although I don’t necessarily agree with all the steps they took, I still like this platform. Kind regards, Gergely 2015-06-07 21:20 GMT+02:00 Lucas Levrel llev...@yahoo.fr: Le 7 juin 2015, IgnorantGuru a écrit : As for who agrees with me and who doesn't, outside of fanboy lists and such, most people I encounter are QUITE unhappy with GTK 3, and often ask why I use it at all. Indeed, can't you go back and use GTK 2 instead ? (Maybe does this bug exist in GTK2 as well?) -- Lucas Levrel ___ gtk-app-devel-list mailing list gtk-app-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-app-devel-list ___ gtk-app-devel-list mailing list gtk-app-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-app-devel-list
Re: Misconduct of GTK+/glib Bugtracker Admins
On Sun, 7 Jun 2015 19:25:56 +0200 John Tall mjta...@gmail.com wrote: GTK+ is not a Red Hat project. Another good example here is this very complaint. A real free project would have developers who are held accountable for their actions. One reason I sent this complaint to this list is because there's simply no where to take it. And there has been no response from anyone in an official capacity. These developers are abusive and give misinformation, and if you confront it in the bug report, they delete comments and threaten to block you. If I was to work the complaint up the chain of command, guess whose desktop it would land on? There's no way to hold these developers accountable for anything they do or say, which is why they continue to treat people in this manner. When users or developers complain about any engineering choices, they are likewise simply disregarded. Sure sounds like Red Hat is running the show. Guess who wrote the GNOME code of conduct (Red Hat employee), including the idea that we must assume they mean well (a very broad, easily abused rule, which they themselves don't follow). Gee, I wonder why they needed to add that. Are people distrusting them all over the place? You can read my Rotting In Threes article if you haven't seen it for more examples of how these developers were and are treating people - this is hardly a new problem in your project: https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/gnome-et-al-rotting-in-threes/ ___ gtk-app-devel-list mailing list gtk-app-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-app-devel-list
Re: Misconduct of GTK+/glib Bugtracker Admins
It’s not a question of whether I personally want to use systemd or gvfs or Red Hat's tools, or even what conspiracies that billion-dollar corporation may be involved with. But as an independent FM developer using GTK as my GUI, I want my software to be able to run on a wide variety of systems, not just Gnome (and not just Gnome's very latest, since they have no respect for backwards compat). MANY users go out of their way to avoid DEs, systemd, gvfs, dbus, etc. - Linux is full of options. Further, many FM devs HATE gvfs and udisks, including the ones that use them. I had so many problems with udisks support that I wrote udevil to replace it, which quieted the problems immediately. SpaceFM has only gtk, glib, and udev as core dependencies (very unusual for a file manager), allowing it to run almost anywhere with any set of system tools in use, and this took work to achieve. If they connect gtk to gvfs with a hard dependency, or claim systemd must be in use, then my users have to install all of Gnome just to use my app, similar to how you have to install KDE and all its crap to use krusader. If you want to use both, you have all these extraneous daemons and packages installed and running. That’s how corporations think they achieve dominance - by forcing people to install their whole DE. But that just causes devs and users to drop GTK. And it's ridiculous for my app to care what init system a user or distro has selected - that's their business. My app and it's GUI toolkit shouldn't care. If they were smart, they’d realize that making a very smart GUI toolkit with minimal dependencies and good backwards compat would ensure GTK’s long life and wide adoption. Perhaps they just try to keep it for Gnome-only’s use, viewing it in a competitive way and being hostile to use by others, hostile to 3rd party theming which users greatly enjoy and prioritize, etc, or they’re deliberately running it into the ground to destroy GTK and ensure Qt’s adoption (which they’re certainly achieving). GTK is being abandoned at a phenomenal rate primarily due to Red Hat's agenda and conflicts of interest. If you genuinely support the toolkit, you may wish to take notice of that, and its reasons. As for who agrees with me and who doesn't, outside of fanboy lists and such, most people I encounter are QUITE unhappy with GTK 3, and often ask why I use it at all. And many devs I know have left it, even when it required large amounts of rewriting their apps. Were I to select a new GUI toolkit for a new app (Gnome or not), I would not select GTK, largely because of the obnoxious and arrogant behavior of Red Hat employees and stooges involved in the development and bugtrackers, as well as their lack of respect for minimal dependencies, project separation, and community involvement. ___ gtk-app-devel-list mailing list gtk-app-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-app-devel-list
Re: Misconduct of GTK+/glib Bugtracker Admins
On Sun, 7 Jun 2015 21:53:24 +0200 Gergely Polonkai gerg...@polonkai.eu wrote: Hello, I’m sorry to say that, but I find your name very appropriate in this case: *Ignorant* Guru. You seem to ignore every statement that says something else that you do. GNOME is not a Red Hat product. It is a GNOME Foundation product, if you want to put it anywhere. It is led by several developers, Red Hat employees or not, who put a lot of effort to make it better. I personally know that they *do* accept patches, as I have sent some of them in the past, and possibly will send more in the future. You were told several times that if you don’t like the way it works, then create a patch: GNOME developers don’t necessarily have the time to make this work for you. You can see how many problems they have to deal with either by looking at the bug tracker or the IRC channel they hang around on. I try to repeat what so many others said before in this thread: if you have put half the effort into writing a patch instead of writing such not-well backed complaints, this problem should have been solved already. Disclaimer: I’m not officially connected with GNOME nor Red Hat, Inc. I just use GNOME since 1.something, and although I don’t necessarily agree with all the steps they took, I still like this platform. Kind regards, Gergely Gergely, Thank you for your reply, but you do not seem to be processing the information here any better than you say I am. This bug's resolution means little to my software. I was merely offering some input to help them solve it. It's very low on my list of things to be addressed. It's a minor annoyance to a few my users, indirectly in other apps' behavior. The real issue here, which you didn't process at all, is the conduct of the admins/developers. Period. If you find their behavior acceptable or of high quality, so be it. I do not. Since sending these list mails, I have noticed a phenomenon. People are disagreeing with me publicly, yet more are writing to me privately agreeing, and giving examples where these same developers were, to use one person's words: [to see more] more shockingly antagonizing behavior from ebassi, you should check out how he talked to J. Ralls (the gtk-osx maintainer) a few years back. Worth a read, downright disrespectful. Someone also writes, They centralized everything 'under the main GTK site', then nothing happened. Patches are still not being applied. etc. Another writes, Although I've been working with GTK+ since the first versions, I'm today also very disappointed. Yet these people are not comfortable posting such comments here or being quoted by name. This is a pattern I have seen before surrounding Red Hat, as well as GTK+ - people feel they cannot speak their mind on these issues. Seems your story differs from theirs, and since I've experienced what they're referring to directly (for years), and have seen countless other examples, why would I believe you? ___ gtk-app-devel-list mailing list gtk-app-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-app-devel-list
Re: Misconduct of GTK+/glib Bugtracker Admins
Dude, seriously. There is no conspiracy. Red Hat is not an evil empire. If you have a problem, spit it out already. Otherwise, ranting about how Red Hat is taking over the world!!1! is not doing anyone a favour. You've made your point. It would appear that people are not really in agreement with you. I'm not a Red Hat or GNOME user myself, and I do agree (to some extent) that stronger ties between GNOME and GTK is not a good thing. But ranting about it on mailinglists is not going to fix that. If you really think that GTK is going in the wrong direction, the best way forward is to fork it and make it do what you think it *should* be doing. That's what the MATE people did when they believed GNOME was going in the wrong direction, and it seems they're pretty successful at that. If you're not prepared to go there, can you cut the already? kthxbye. On Sun, Jun 07, 2015 at 04:10:29PM -0600, IgnorantGuru wrote: It's not that I don't believe your experiences, but your rather negative interpretation of my motives and methods. I'm not suggesting such developers can't be manipulated to do minor things by kissing ass - raging egos often can be manipulated that way. How they respond when someone sticks to facts and relevant viewpoints is what matters - that's professionalism vs favoritism and bias. I don't claim to be the most patient person, and we knew each other already, but my discussing Red Hat's history on that bug was not anger nor was it ranting. I have a half million visitors to my blog that I have discussed all of this with plenty. Ranting in a bug report doesn't make much of a dent. Instead, I was informing others dealing with them that there was a history to the bug and their preferred solutions, and that some of what was being said was inaccurate. I was providing important and very relevant context on it being an inter-DE issue, and I was disclosing their conflict of interest. Even if this involves a company name or a developer's name (and I only mentioned them generally), it is relevant to how the bug is being addressed, and by whom. The FACTS I presented just happened to be unflattering to their particular ears, so they thought it was fine to just delete and threaten people to remove the information. Nor is this an isolated case, but merely one of a long series of examples. They conduct themselves as tyrants, simply put, and this project's contributors seem to be whipped into accepting such treatment. I'm surprised to see a considerate person like yourself defending their behavior. I have no hatred of them - the internet is full of arrogant fools. Yet putting them in charge of your project and doing as they say is another matter. You also give them a benefit of the doubt I do not. To me, their reason for instantly responding to and commanding all such bug reports is to control their direction for Red Hat and ilk. To this end, they largely obstruct, rather than resolve. Remember, these are not just good-hearted fellows donating their time. They're paid by a very large corporation and do what they're told to do, and don't do what they're not told to do. And that very large corporation has different views on direction than most users of GTK+. So you needn't defend them - they have plenty of PR people and money to take care of that. You might start defending the interests of yourself and libre software development instead, as I'm sure they're not the same as Red Hat's interests. ___ gtk-app-devel-list mailing list gtk-app-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-app-devel-list -- It is easy to love a country that is famous for chocolate and beer -- Barack Obama, speaking in Brussels, Belgium, 2014-03-26 ___ gtk-app-devel-list mailing list gtk-app-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-app-devel-list
Re: Misconduct of GTK+/glib Bugtracker Admins
Hello, I didn’t really want you to believe me, I just shared my experiences, that’s all. I got help several times from these “Red Hat employees” before, although I wouldn’t say it came in an instant; I must confess that sometimes I bugged them or IRC before they answered my calls. The keywords here are patience, persistence and and politeness. I’d like to think I bear all these virtues and use them well. Reading your bug report and the original message, I think if you state your problems without getting personal with either them or the companies they work for (or you think they work for), you could have gotten more far. Yes, I also think they were not very respectful, but to be honest, you called for it: if you threaten someone by any means, don’t be surprised if they strike back. It goes just like this everywhere in this world. I will leave this thread alone now. Of course, if you have anything to discuss with me we can do that in private, and I hereby grant you to publish our discussions with my name if we do so. I still hope your problem gets solved, as I can see the use case and the annoyance of your users. Wishing you the best, Gergely Polonkai 2015-06-07 23:18 GMT+02:00 IgnorantGuru ignorantg...@openmailbox.org: On Sun, 7 Jun 2015 21:53:24 +0200 Gergely Polonkai gerg...@polonkai.eu wrote: Hello, I’m sorry to say that, but I find your name very appropriate in this case: *Ignorant* Guru. You seem to ignore every statement that says something else that you do. GNOME is not a Red Hat product. It is a GNOME Foundation product, if you want to put it anywhere. It is led by several developers, Red Hat employees or not, who put a lot of effort to make it better. I personally know that they *do* accept patches, as I have sent some of them in the past, and possibly will send more in the future. You were told several times that if you don’t like the way it works, then create a patch: GNOME developers don’t necessarily have the time to make this work for you. You can see how many problems they have to deal with either by looking at the bug tracker or the IRC channel they hang around on. I try to repeat what so many others said before in this thread: if you have put half the effort into writing a patch instead of writing such not-well backed complaints, this problem should have been solved already. Disclaimer: I’m not officially connected with GNOME nor Red Hat, Inc. I just use GNOME since 1.something, and although I don’t necessarily agree with all the steps they took, I still like this platform. Kind regards, Gergely Gergely, Thank you for your reply, but you do not seem to be processing the information here any better than you say I am. This bug's resolution means little to my software. I was merely offering some input to help them solve it. It's very low on my list of things to be addressed. It's a minor annoyance to a few my users, indirectly in other apps' behavior. The real issue here, which you didn't process at all, is the conduct of the admins/developers. Period. If you find their behavior acceptable or of high quality, so be it. I do not. Since sending these list mails, I have noticed a phenomenon. People are disagreeing with me publicly, yet more are writing to me privately agreeing, and giving examples where these same developers were, to use one person's words: [to see more] more shockingly antagonizing behavior from ebassi, you should check out how he talked to J. Ralls (the gtk-osx maintainer) a few years back. Worth a read, downright disrespectful. Someone also writes, They centralized everything 'under the main GTK site', then nothing happened. Patches are still not being applied. etc. Another writes, Although I've been working with GTK+ since the first versions, I'm today also very disappointed. Yet these people are not comfortable posting such comments here or being quoted by name. This is a pattern I have seen before surrounding Red Hat, as well as GTK+ - people feel they cannot speak their mind on these issues. Seems your story differs from theirs, and since I've experienced what they're referring to directly (for years), and have seen countless other examples, why would I believe you? ___ gtk-app-devel-list mailing list gtk-app-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-app-devel-list ___ gtk-app-devel-list mailing list gtk-app-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-app-devel-list
Re: Misconduct of GTK+/glib Bugtracker Admins
Right. What happens seems to be that because the Red Hat (or people working closely with them) are the main developers in gtk+, and they mainly work on GNOME, they naturally look at the needs of GNOME as the main driver for their work. It is hard to say they intentionally work against non-GNOME environments. That said, I do hope the gtk+ developers do keep a conscious effort to avoid GNOME related changes to dominant the future of gtk+--at least making the gtk+ itself as portable as possible, with minimal tie-up to systemd or such. Of course this requires strong non-GNOME developers (especially like these working on Windows or Mac OSX, or the BSDs (that do not use systemd) inside the Unix world) to get involved in gtk+ to make sure gtk+ feaure sets to be implemented on these platforms On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 4:02 PM, Wouter Verhelst w...@uter.be wrote: Dude, seriously. There is no conspiracy. Red Hat is not an evil empire. If you have a problem, spit it out already. Otherwise, ranting about how Red Hat is taking over the world!!1! is not doing anyone a favour. You've made your point. It would appear that people are not really in agreement with you. I'm not a Red Hat or GNOME user myself, and I do agree (to some extent) that stronger ties between GNOME and GTK is not a good thing. But ranting about it on mailinglists is not going to fix that. If you really think that GTK is going in the wrong direction, the best way forward is to fork it and make it do what you think it *should* be doing. That's what the MATE people did when they believed GNOME was going in the wrong direction, and it seems they're pretty successful at that. If you're not prepared to go there, can you cut the already? kthxbye. On Sun, Jun 07, 2015 at 04:10:29PM -0600, IgnorantGuru wrote: It's not that I don't believe your experiences, but your rather negative interpretation of my motives and methods. I'm not suggesting such developers can't be manipulated to do minor things by kissing ass - raging egos often can be manipulated that way. How they respond when someone sticks to facts and relevant viewpoints is what matters - that's professionalism vs favoritism and bias. I don't claim to be the most patient person, and we knew each other already, but my discussing Red Hat's history on that bug was not anger nor was it ranting. I have a half million visitors to my blog that I have discussed all of this with plenty. Ranting in a bug report doesn't make much of a dent. Instead, I was informing others dealing with them that there was a history to the bug and their preferred solutions, and that some of what was being said was inaccurate. I was providing important and very relevant context on it being an inter-DE issue, and I was disclosing their conflict of interest. Even if this involves a company name or a developer's name (and I only mentioned them generally), it is relevant to how the bug is being addressed, and by whom. The FACTS I presented just happened to be unflattering to their particular ears, so they thought it was fine to just delete and threaten people to remove the information. Nor is this an isolated case, but merely one of a long series of examples. They conduct themselves as tyrants, simply put, and this project's contributors seem to be whipped into accepting such treatment. I'm surprised to see a considerate person like yourself defending their behavior. I have no hatred of them - the internet is full of arrogant fools. Yet putting them in charge of your project and doing as they say is another matter. You also give them a benefit of the doubt I do not. To me, their reason for instantly responding to and commanding all such bug reports is to control their direction for Red Hat and ilk. To this end, they largely obstruct, rather than resolve. Remember, these are not just good-hearted fellows donating their time. They're paid by a very large corporation and do what they're told to do, and don't do what they're not told to do. And that very large corporation has different views on direction than most users of GTK+. So you needn't defend them - they have plenty of PR people and money to take care of that. You might start defending the interests of yourself and libre software development instead, as I'm sure they're not the same as Red Hat's interests. ___ gtk-app-devel-list mailing list gtk-app-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-app-devel-list -- It is easy to love a country that is famous for chocolate and beer -- Barack Obama, speaking in Brussels, Belgium, 2014-03-26 ___ gtk-app-devel-list mailing list gtk-app-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-app-devel-list -- Andy Tai, a...@atai.org, Skype: licheng.tai
Re: Misconduct of GTK+/glib Bugtracker Admins
On Sun, 7 Jun 2015 23:34:44 +0200 Gergely Polonkai gerg...@polonkai.eu wrote: Hello, I didn’t really want you to believe me, I just shared my experiences, that’s all. I got help several times from these “Red Hat employees” before, although I wouldn’t say it came in an instant; I must confess that sometimes I bugged them or IRC before they answered my calls. The keywords here are patience, persistence and and politeness. I’d like to think I bear all these virtues and use them well. Reading your bug report and the original message, I think if you state your problems without getting personal with either them or the companies they work for (or you think they work for), you could have gotten more far. Yes, I also think they were not very respectful, but to be honest, you called for it: if you threaten someone by any means, don’t be surprised if they strike back. It goes just like this everywhere in this world. I will leave this thread alone now. Of course, if you have anything to discuss with me we can do that in private, and I hereby grant you to publish our discussions with my name if we do so. I still hope your problem gets solved, as I can see the use case and the annoyance of your users. Wishing you the best, Gergely Polonkai Gergely, It's not that I don't believe your experiences, but your rather negative interpretation of my motives and methods. I'm not suggesting such developers can't be manipulated to do minor things by kissing ass - raging egos often can be manipulated that way. How they respond when someone sticks to facts and relevant viewpoints is what matters - that's professionalism vs favoritism and bias. I don't claim to be the most patient person, and we knew each other already, but my discussing Red Hat's history on that bug was not anger nor was it ranting. I have a half million visitors to my blog that I have discussed all of this with plenty. Ranting in a bug report doesn't make much of a dent. Instead, I was informing others dealing with them that there was a history to the bug and their preferred solutions, and that some of what was being said was inaccurate. I was providing important and very relevant context on it being an inter-DE issue, and I was disclosing their conflict of interest. Even if this involves a company name or a developer's name (and I only mentioned them generally), it is relevant to how the bug is being addressed, and by whom. The FACTS I presented just happened to be unflattering to their particular ears, so they thought it was fine to just delete and threaten people to remove the information. Nor is this an isolated case, but merely one of a long series of examples. They conduct themselves as tyrants, simply put, and this project's contributors seem to be whipped into accepting such treatment. I'm surprised to see a considerate person like yourself defending their behavior. I have no hatred of them - the internet is full of arrogant fools. Yet putting them in charge of your project and doing as they say is another matter. You also give them a benefit of the doubt I do not. To me, their reason for instantly responding to and commanding all such bug reports is to control their direction for Red Hat and ilk. To this end, they largely obstruct, rather than resolve. Remember, these are not just good-hearted fellows donating their time. They're paid by a very large corporation and do what they're told to do, and don't do what they're not told to do. And that very large corporation has different views on direction than most users of GTK+. So you needn't defend them - they have plenty of PR people and money to take care of that. You might start defending the interests of yourself and libre software development instead, as I'm sure they're not the same as Red Hat's interests. ___ gtk-app-devel-list mailing list gtk-app-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-app-devel-list
Re: Misconduct of GTK+/glib Bugtracker Admins
On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 9:11 PM, IgnorantGuru ignorantg...@openmailbox.org wrote: Greetings. Not sure where is the best place to bring this - input welcome - but this email is an official complaint against the conduct of: Matthias Clasen Emmanuele Bassi André Klapper I read the entire thread and what I saw was a technical discussion where you had an opinion which some people disagreed with. Welcome to Free Software! I hope that you understand that you don't have a contract, they don't have to do something just because you want them to. If you want something done then the only person that has to do anything is you. Have a nice day! John ___ gtk-app-devel-list mailing list gtk-app-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-app-devel-list
Re: Misconduct of GTK+/glib Bugtracker Admins
On 06/04/2015 01:11 PM, IgnorantGuru wrote: All that needs to be done to fix it is add the traditional location used for fuse mounts to the heuristics - a 5 minute job. Have you submitted a patch then? I have a hard time seeing how any of the devs would refuse a well-written patch that fixes this bug. ___ gtk-app-devel-list mailing list gtk-app-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-app-devel-list
Misconduct of GTK+/glib Bugtracker Admins
Greetings. Not sure where is the best place to bring this - input welcome - but this email is an official complaint against the conduct of: Matthias Clasen Emmanuele Bassi André Klapper Specially, their conduct administering the GTK+ bugtracker in the case of bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=750182 is unacceptable. They are closing bugs preemptively, and are using the code of conduct to threaten people who discuss the history and the background of a bug. They threaten a user with the code of conduct for using the word overengineered to justify their choice not to use systemd. They claim personal attacks when no one was even referred to personally, and they themselves state that people are not really cool (Emmanuele Bassi). They make false technical statements then delete any corrections offered in comments. Your GTK+ bug tracker is being run and responded to in an unprofessional and highly biased manner by these Red Hat employees and associated Gnome-centric developers, using petty offense at historical and technical discussions as grounds for threats. Is this really the image you want portrayed to users and developers? This is not quality maintenance. It is behavior that drives developers away from GTK+. And this is hardly uncommon - there are many repeats and general complaints about them all over the web. I have published the following article on my blog which reviews this bug and how it was handled, and participants in the aforementioned report are welcome to respond there as well (I for one do not censor, I merely respond). You can also read all comments there, including those which were deleted. Please review the conduct of these administrators and participants. It is my understanding that GTK+ and glib are still conducted as open projects, with the understanding that they are used on multiple platforms and systems, and that each have different concerns to be fully heard. If there is another public forum for complaints against the conduct of these administrators, please direct me there or bring this matter to attention. Thank you for reviewing this matter, and I look forward to your timely response. My blog report on this incident, in which you can read all deleted comments, is provided below. IgnorantGuru http://igurublog.wordpress.com (Note: I am only subscribed to gtk-app-devel-list@gnome.org so please CC other replies to me - thanks.) Post : Red Hat / Gnome Developers Censoring GTK+ Bugtracker URL: https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2015/06/04/red-hat-gnome-developers-censoring-gtk-bugtracker/ Posted : June 4, 2015 I submit the following for your review because it's an interesting case study in how Red Hat developers are running the GTK+ bugtracker, censoring non-flattering input, and misusing their code of conduct. Since they deleted several of my comments, and threatened another participant merely for using the word overengineered (lol - if the shoe fits...), I thought it might be valuable to bring what they deleted to larger attention. I and the others involved are not the only people who are treated this way by these developers. But most people will back down because they don't want to be banned and censored, which I can understand, but it creates an atmosphere where there can be no open discussion of larger issues facing GTK+. But I don't have to kiss ass, and they have never once done anything useful in response to bugs I have tried to get them to fix. In fact I don't think they've ever taken an action that has benefited libre software at all. They are an obstacle - some great upstream to have on your GUI toolkit. If you plan to use GTK on a new project, don't. Unless you're part of Gnome, this is the kind of support environment you can now expect. And do not be fooled by their please submit a patch. First, why are they demanding that API users fix their low-level I/O bugs? Second, even the person asking for the patch has no authority to include it - they are more like (ARE) a corporation's customer service representatives that are there to merely give people the runaround. The case in study is a bug report regarding the way the GTK+ file chooser (file browser) only shows FUSE mounts made by gvfs, and is blind to those made by almost all other file managers. This is a simple bug. All that needs to be done to fix it is add the traditional location used for fuse mounts to the heuristics - a 5 minute job. Yet instead of simply fixing it, first a Red Hat employee immediately closes it as RESOLVED WONTFIX with a No. Then after I point out some details, they reopen it, but embroil it in a huge debate about gvfs dependency and udisks, which has nothing to do with this simple bug. As such, they are obstructing, not resolving anything. When their inaccurate gvfs dependency information is pointed out, they delete the comment. Further, it's revealed that it's broken in the first place because someone inserted a hack for gvfs into
