Re: Rename glibc-utf8-locales to glibc-limited-utf8-locales
Hi Rovanion, Rovanion Luckey writes: >> The package description reads as: >> >>This package provides a small sample of UTF-8 locales mostly useful >>in test environments. >> > > While true does not change that the name is, in my opinion, misleading. > > >> Perhaps it should simply be marked as a hidden package (not discoverable >> via the user interface), and not mentioned in the manual at all. >> >> What do you think? >> > > That is a reasonable solution too. I've sent a patch implementing this (a bit more actually) in https://issues.guix.gnu.org/54178. Feel free to review it! Thank you, Maxim
Re: An appeal to empathy on actual hurt caused by this thread
Okay. Now a longer reply. I am taking a substantial portion of my day to do this. I think there is a lot more going on here than even appears at the surface. So I have re-read everything that has been said so far and am doing my best to take care in what I write here. I hope it's of some greater help and contribution for the health and well being of this community, which I cherish. Taylan Kammer writes: > Hi Christine, > > Thank you for opening up. It was definitely not apparent to me that you > had such a reaction to the thread. As we know, text doesn't convey the > nuances of human communication very well, and I had read your initial > emails as rather relaxed, or at worst mildly annoyed. Had I realized > that they were coming from such a stressful position, I would have > responded differently. For whatever it's worth, at the point that I composed the email, I was anxious. > My heartfelt apologies in that regard. Apology (personally) accepted. I can't speak for others of course, but it is my hope that we as a community can find healing and understanding and move forward. And I believe you when you say this was not your intent. I also appreciate you being open and thoughtful throughout the rest of this email. Know that this, and the previous, emails were not easy for me to write. I wrote them from a position of disclosure and vulnerability. But not writing them would be worse. I am glad I did write it, because (and obviously, I won't talk about the specifics), I received replies from some folks in private saying they felt their experiences mirrored and it may have affected their participation in Guix, and had already affected their feeling of safety and self-identity. Not to mention my own felings. > For us to be able to build up better mutual understanding and empathy in > the future, perhaps it would be good for me to open up about some things > as well. Certainly not a thing requied to do, but I appreciate it. > Frankly, I think we're more similar than anyone taking a glance at the > thread might ever think. I've had experiences with gender dysphoria as > well, and my dis-identification with male peers has certainly played an > important role in the development of my severe chronic depression. > > I'm a rather reserved person when it comes to personal matters, not as > open about my feelings as you are (and good on you -- it's not doing me > much good to be the way I am in that regard), so I don't want to go into > too much detail, but let's just say I've had multiple near-death moments > throughout the years in relation to my condition, and the latest bout of > severe suicidal thoughts was just a few months ago. I'm sorry to hear it. > The partly hostile responses (from others, not you!) I've received in > the thread have been anything but pleasant, to say the least, but have > not led to a major breakdown, perhaps thanks to the medication I'm on, > which might be why I was able to respond a few more times... I am sorry, again, to hear about your dealing with depression, or that you have had to undergo any breakdowns at all. As for "partly hostile responses", I'd like to respond to this more later, at the end of this thread. > I've packaged higan for Guix, back in 2015. Near (then byuu) helped me > revitalize some of my fondest childhood memories with the emulator he's > built. After taking some interest in the program's workings, I was also > briefly active on his web forum, and had positive interactions with him. > We weren't close personally, but I had built up a *lot* of fondness and > respect for him. The news of his suicide was absolutely awful to me. > > Moreover, a certain web forum that shall not be named which was behind > the bullying campaign against Near/byuu (and countless others) also has > a "profile" of sorts written up on me in one of their threads, as a > potential future bullying target or something. So far I've been spared, > but they do have my home address, and my employer's details are a web > search away. > > All of which is to say, I *deeply* empathize with your position, and at > no point would I ever wish to inflict this type of pain on anyone. I'm truly sorry you had to experience that. Nobody deserves that. Though (and not to undo the previous two sentences) I will say, the choice of "he" for Near gave me most pause in this email, given the thread's existing context of gender consierations, and that Near identified as nonbinary as far as I understand, and that this and their autism were partly why they were bullied into suicide... > I would like to sincerely reassure you that the sole purpose in sending > the patch, and subsequent messages, was to pledge for another view to be > respected on equal regard to the one that's already correctly respected. > > The reason I've felt strongly about that, pressing me to reiterate the > position in the subsequent thread by Zimoun, was of course not some > twisted wish to cause hurt. Rather,
Re: Rename glibc-utf8-locales to glibc-limited-utf8-locales
> The package description reads as: > >This package provides a small sample of UTF-8 locales mostly useful >in test environments. > While true does not change that the name is, in my opinion, misleading. > Perhaps it should simply be marked as a hidden package (not discoverable > via the user interface), and not mentioned in the manual at all. > > What do you think? > That is a reasonable solution too.
Re: Update CoC adapted from upstream 2.1 (instead of 1.4)
> This is very twisted and unfair to Taylan. Is it though? Arguably all of this blew up because of how twisted and unfair Taylan is about this issue generally, given the wiki they run and the fact that they’ve been banned from at least one site for this fixation. Everyone who has commented for the most part have already agreed that they’re ok with updating the CoC to match the upstream so why don’t we let this one go and change the CoC. -- Elais Player
Re: llvm on aarch64 builds very slowly
On Wednesday, February 23rd, 2022 at 9:49 AM, Christopher Baines wrote: > Ricardo Wurmus rek...@elephly.net writes: > > > Ricardo Wurmus rek...@elephly.net writes: > > > > > Hi Guix, > > > > > > I had to manually run the build of llvm 11 on aarch64, because it would > > > > > > keep timing out: > > > > > > time guix build > > > /gnu/store/0hc7inxqcczb8mq2wcwrcw0vd3i2agkv-llvm-11.0.0.drv > > > --timeout=99 --max-silent-time=99 > > > > > > After more than two days it finally built. This seems a little > > > > > > excessive. Towards the end of the build I saw a 1% point progress > > > > > > increase for every hour that passed. > > > > > > Is there something wrong with the build nodes, are we building llvm 11 > > > > > > wrong, or is this just the way it is on aarch64 systems? > > > > I now see that gfortran 10 also takes a very long time to build. It’s > > > > on kreuzberg (10.0.0.9) and I see that out of the 16 cores only one is > > > > really busy. Other cores sometimes come in with a tiny bit of work, but > > > > you might miss it if you blink. > > > > Guix ran “make -j 16” at the top level, but the other make processes > > > > that have been spawned as children do not have “-j 16”. There are > > > > probably 16 or so invocations of cc1plus, but only CPU0 seems to be busy > > > > at 100% while the others are at 0. > > > > What’s up with that? > > Regarding the llvm derivation you mentioned [1], it looks like for > > bordeaux.guix.gnu.org, the build completed in around a couple of hours, > > this was on the 4 core Overdrive machine though. > > 1: > https://data.guix.gnu.org/gnu/store/0hc7inxqcczb8mq2wcwrcw0vd3i2agkv-llvm-11.0.0.drv > > On the subject of the HoneyComb machines, I haven't noticed anything > > like you describe with the one (hatysa) running behind > > bordeaux.guix.gnu.org. Most cores are fully occupied most of the time, > > which the 15m load average sitting around 16. > > Some things to check though, what does the load average look like when > > you think the system should be using all it's cores? If it's high but > > there's not much CPU utilisation, that suggests there's a bottleneck > > somewhere else. > > Also, what does the memory and swap usage look like? Hatysa has 32GB of > > memory and swap, and ideally it would actually have 64GB, since that > > would avoid swapping more often. One thing I remember about building LLVM a number of years ago when I was working on it through my job (though only for x86-64, not aarch64) is that the build is very memory intensive. In particular, linking the various binaries would each be quite slow and consume a lot of memory, causing significant, intense swapping with less than 64GB of memory in a parallel build (and sometimes eventually trigger the OOM killer). As I recall, using ld.bfd for the build was by far the slowest, ld.gold was noticeably better, and ld.lld was showing promise for doing better than ld.gold. Just my $0.02 of past experiences, in case they help to understand the slow aarch64 build with LLVM 11. Cheers, Kaelyn > > One problem I have observed with hatysa is storage > > instability/performance issues. Looking in /var/log/messages, I see > > things like the following. Maybe check /var/log/messages for anything > > similar? > > nvme nvme0: I/O 0 QID 6 timeout, aborting > > nvme nvme0: I/O 1 QID 6 timeout, aborting > > nvme nvme0: I/O 2 QID 6 timeout, aborting > > nvme nvme0: I/O 3 QID 6 timeout, aborting > > nvme nvme0: Abort status: 0x0 > > nvme nvme0: Abort status: 0x0 > > nvme nvme0: Abort status: 0x0 > > nvme nvme0: Abort status: 0x0 > > Lastly, I'm not quite sure what thermal problems look like on ARM, but > > maybe check the CPU temps. I see between 60 and 70 degrees as reported > > by the sensors command, this is with a different CPU cooler though. > > Chris
Re: An appeal to empathy on actual hurt caused by this thread
Thank you for this response and for sharing some of your own experiences. I just want to address this issue: >The key reason the thread / my mails have caused hurt seems to be that >they've come across as an attempt to debate transgender experiences. >What I've not been able to understand is how that happened, since I >actually tried very hard from the beginning to make it as clear as >possible that I had no such intention. I think that the main reason that this thread turned contentious is the body of rhetoric you were referencing. In an earlier part of the thread, you said: >Not to hide anything: personally, I ascribe to views (broadly, radical >feminism) which contradict some key aspects of the transgender movement. >However, that's irrelevant in this context. Whatever your intentions were, the rhetoric you were using to argue your point comes from the discourse of Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminism, that is not irrelevant in this context. You were using the same talking points that people use to bully and harass trans people in person and online and others in positions of power in my country and across the globe are actively using to reject the lived experiences of transgender individuals and deny them basic human rights (like access to health care). This is why your proposal elicited a trauma response for some people. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that this was not your intention but for many people in the world and in the Guix community your argument cannot be separated from this context. For my own part, conversations about what benefits [cis-]women in a community without including any [cis-]women in the conversation (though from my persepctive as a feminist, I would argue that Liliana and Christine's input as women should have been heeded as such) ties into a centuries-long patriarchal trend of talking around women about their best interests instead of speaking with them about their needs. I hope you do not view this as an attack, I am merely framing this conversation within broader contexts that led this thread to cause harm to members of the community since you asked us why it had this unintended impact. Best, Morgan On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 11:03 PM Taylan Kammer wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Thank you for opening up. It was definitely not apparent to me that you > had such a reaction to the thread. As we know, text doesn't convey the > nuances of human communication very well, and I had read your initial > emails as rather relaxed, or at worst mildly annoyed. Had I realized > that they were coming from such a stressful position, I would have > responded differently. > > My heartfelt apologies in that regard. > > For us to be able to build up better mutual understanding and empathy in > the future, perhaps it would be good for me to open up about some things > as well. > > --- > > Frankly, I think we're more similar than anyone taking a glance at the > thread might ever think. I've had experiences with gender dysphoria as > well, and my dis-identification with male peers has certainly played an > important role in the development of my severe chronic depression. > > I'm a rather reserved person when it comes to personal matters, not as > open about my feelings as you are (and good on you -- it's not doing me > much good to be the way I am in that regard), so I don't want to go into > too much detail, but let's just say I've had multiple near-death moments > throughout the years in relation to my condition, and the latest bout of > severe suicidal thoughts was just a few months ago. > > The partly hostile responses (from others, not you!) I've received in > the thread have been anything but pleasant, to say the least, but have > not led to a major breakdown, perhaps thanks to the medication I'm on, > which might be why I was able to respond a few more times... > > I've packaged higan for Guix, back in 2015. Near (then byuu) helped me > revitalize some of my fondest childhood memories with the emulator he's > built. After taking some interest in the program's workings, I was also > briefly active on his web forum, and had positive interactions with him. > We weren't close personally, but I had built up a *lot* of fondness and > respect for him. The news of his suicide was absolutely awful to me. > > Moreover, a certain web forum that shall not be named which was behind > the bullying campaign against Near/byuu (and countless others) also has > a "profile" of sorts written up on me in one of their threads, as a > potential future bullying target or something. So far I've been spared, > but they do have my home address, and my employer's details are a web > search away. > > All of which is to say, I *deeply* empathize with your position, and at > no point would I ever wish to inflict this type of pain on anyone. > > I would like to sincerely reassure you that the sole purpose in sending > the patch, and subsequent messages, was to pledge for another view to be > respected
Re: branch master updated: gnu: pspp: Fix failing test suite.
On 2022-02-26 15:52, guix-comm...@gnu.org wrote: + #~(modify-phases %standard-phases Hm, this initially used an ungexp before I was sure what was going on. Now it doesn't. Is the purported performance impact of gexps measurable at this scale, and worth removing the gexp? My gut says no, but less squishy objections welcome. Kind regards, T G-R Sent from a Web browser. Excuse or enjoy my brevity.
Re: better error messages through assertions
Hi Ricardo, Ricardo Wurmus writes: > Maxim Cournoyer writes: > >> I hear we now have "field sanitizers" on Guix records; without having >> dug the details, it seems to be we could add a predicate validating the >> input there? > > I don’t see how that would help here. In my example the service values > themselves are all right. It’s a procedure acting on what it assumes is > a list of service values that fails. > > Record field validation would not have prevented that error. Thanks for explaining. For what it's worth, what you are proposing seems a sound improvement to me, so feel free to go ahead with patches! Thanks, Maxim
Re: Rename glibc-utf8-locales to glibc-limited-utf8-locales
Hi Rovanion, Rovanion Luckey writes: > I prefer names to not be lying about what they are, despite any > documentation. It is a UX problem if the user has to search the > documentation for any given package name before installing it, just to make > sure that it contains what it says on the can so to speak. > > The name glibc-utf8-locales when contrasted with glibc-locales reads to me > like "it contains only the utf8-locales". The package description reads as: This package provides a small sample of UTF-8 locales mostly useful in test environments. Perhaps it should simply be marked as a hidden package (not discoverable via the user interface), and not mentioned in the manual at all. What do you think? Thanks, Maxim
Re: better error messages through assertions
Maxim Cournoyer writes: > I hear we now have "field sanitizers" on Guix records; without having > dug the details, it seems to be we could add a predicate validating the > input there? I don’t see how that would help here. In my example the service values themselves are all right. It’s a procedure acting on what it assumes is a list of service values that fails. Record field validation would not have prevented that error. -- Ricardo
Re: An appeal to empathy on actual hurt caused by this thread
I'll just add my five cents here and leave the conversation: > Reading over my mails, I just don't understand why they might have been > misunderstood so badly. If you could shed some light on that, I would be > very grateful! It would certainly help me avoid mistakes in the future, > if I were to talk about these matters in a different place. It's what happens when you over-rationalize other people's feelings or you talk freely about some subjects people is not comfortable with. You didn't take a good decision, you didn't evaluate it and you are still surprised for what it happened. Don't think, feel instead, and you'll understand. The problem is not the tone or the content in my opinion, but the noise, and (in purpose or not) you made a lot of it. This thread made people feel uncomfortable and questioned, which might be right for conversations you have with your friends or when there's a consent from both sides, but this is a *software* project and you forced people to see messages they probably didn't expect or they didn't want to read. Even with that some had the courage to tell you to stop, and here we are still... What I don't understand is why is people surprised. This thread was born to blow up since the very first message (and sadly, it's not the only one this week). Best, Ekaitz
Re: Update CoC adapted from upstream 2.1 (instead of 1.4)
On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 01:48:22 +0100 Liliana Marie Prikler wrote: > As a nice side-effect, adding it would give us > two reasons to ban Taylan; first for discriminating against trans > people based on their sex characteristics and second based on their > gender identity or expression. This is very twisted and unfair to Taylan. Are you saying that even just implying that a trans-woman is not the same as a cis-woman (or the same for man) is discrimination (strictly in the negative sense of the word)? -- Thorsten Wilms
